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[Crossing Eden]

It is just training, likely with more total tutelage time than 5 minutes prior from Kenobi. He never got to apply that ability in battle anyways, so for all we know he is only as good as any new academy student. Rey used RotJ Luke skills under pressure without Kenobi's guidance.

Rey is just far better than ANH Luke.

The only skill we saw Rey use that Luke didn't use until ROTJ is the mind trick. Which she learned because of this scene

She had direct first hand experience with accessing the mind via the force because she was basically forced to. She also struggled with force pull considering it took a while for the lightsaber to be pulled from the ice.

It's not about "experience points." It's about fundamental, as basic as possible character development.

A few people have brought up The Matrix, where Neo is basically a god in the flesh, but the entirety of the movie is about him working to realize that potential step-by-step, and that's why it works. He fails at jump simulations like everyone else, and it takes a while before he can keep up in fight simulations because he hasn't yet internalized that they're not "real." He has to practice and improve. It's not a perfect movie by any stretch (the way Trinity gets him to recover and make that final push at the end always felt kind of hokey to me, personally), but it's still a good character arc overall.

TFA doesn't have the time to do all of its characters justice, and Rey ends up with the short end of the stick in that regard. She has to be a competent pilot, duelist, and escape artist because the plot simply demands it, and there isn't time to develop her properly. To be fair, it's not like the film does an absolutely terrible job of it. Kylo Ren is a clearly flawed opponent, and his battle was a team effort. She's decent enough at piloting the Falcon, but there's a sense that the vehicle only survives the events of the movie because it's built like a fucking tank and can handle some abuse.

But I just can't get over her knowledge of and adequacy at using the force without any known prior training or study. Even then it's not all bad. Pushing back against Kylo Ren's interrogation and flipping it around on him was legitimately cool imo. You can get the impression that she began to understand what he was doing and, through natural talent, flipped it back around on him after she got used to it. But the escape from her bindings? How did she even know that mind control was a thing, and how did she manage to pull it off? It's all a little too much, and it needs to be explained away to some extent in further sequels.

But why critique writing or characterization when you can just dismiss this all by babbling about sexism or gender roles, right?

Here's the thing, saying that the film "didn't allow Rey to properly develop" implies that there are rules that she must follow to not be considered a Mary Sue or OP. Or that there are rules behind the force that she isn't strictly following as a force sensitive individual. Or that she pulled off everything flawlessly.

 

[igordennis]

Where'd she learn Jedi Mind Tricks from?

From Kylo trying to mess with her head which further awakened her powers and made the force into a tangible thing (whereas when she used on the falcon she didn't know how she did it) + believing (because you gotta believe in the force) in the myths of force users. Thus she tried it out (because why not) and after getting in the right mental state she managed to use it on a arguably weak willed person after failing two times. Really not hard to understand at all.

 

[Renekton]

The only skill we saw Rey use that Luke didn't use until ROTJ is the mind trick. Which she learned because of this scene

She had direct first hand experience with accessing the mind via the force because she was basically forced to. She also struggled with force pull considering it took a while for the lightsaber to be pulled from the ice.

Luke witnessed Kenobi using it.

He's pretty derpy the more I think about it haha.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Luke witnessed Kenobi using it.

He's pretty derpy the more I think about it haha.

He witnessed it but he didn't directly experience it. She in that scene is directly feeling the force being used to probe her mind. As we saw with Poe this works easily on non force sensitive individuals even if they try to resist.

 

[harSon]

The only skill we saw Rey use that Luke didn't use until ROTJ is the mind trick. Which she learned because of this scene


She had direct first hand experience with accessing the mind via the force because she was basically forced to. She also struggled with force pull considering it took a while for the lightsaber to be pulled from the ice.

That's a completely different usage of the force. Kylo Ren was using the force as a means of torture/interrogation, as Vader did to Han Solo:

It's typical interrogation via physical pain, except the tool is the Force. That's completely different than Jedi Mind Tricks, which is using the force as a means of mental suggestion - which typically was accompanied by a change in vocal tone and gesture.

 

[Not]

Hoooly cow, why did people get so angry? Every time I think I'm going to write something that connects with people or helps them see their actions in a different light, they just get royally pissed off instead. I must need work at this.

Sorry to put words in your guys' mouth or whatever the phrase is, but literally all I wrote was a personal summation of what I see happening all over the place. I even thought I might have been right-on-the-money, and I may still do, solely because no one who replied even refuted anything I was saying. I'm actually at a loss- am I missing something? Did I black out and call everyone's grandmother a wimp if they didn't like Rey? Did I really come off as that mean even though I was generalizing?

I hate it when people do this shit. This is one step away from calling people sexist misogynists.

Which is what, the worst possible thing you can call someone? Like, "racist?" You know I'm not accusing you specifically of any grievances, right? And even if I were, there's typically a huge difference between what people think they believe via their higher brain functions and the way they act. Unless you can give me a reason why it's not a stretch to call everything I wrote "evident" throughout this thread, there's nothing worthy of your hatred.

This is exactly why I can't really engage in these topics. Strawmans and arguing in bad faith.

I'm finding it hard to engage as well, because you didn't include what you specifically thought was a strawman. If you want to discuss something in "good faith," I'm afraid I can only accommodate you in a one-on-one discussion. There's too many people posting ignorant-sounding sentiments in this thread and the rest of the Internet to automatically view everyone as tabula rasa, especially when I'm not quoting a specific person. In my eyes, the core of this issue has to be dealt with eventually, and I believe it to be ingrained, if unintended, unfamiliarity with issues of gender equality.

Knock it off.

Please don't make me say "why." Come on. It's not entirely obvious to me what exactly's bugging you here, and I'm trying to learn not to jump to the hastiest of conclusions in distinct circumstances.

Ridiculous, arrogant, asinine.

Does this mean we're not going to prom together?

But mostly. Even if someone actually said the things you're attributing to them: therefore what? You're talking about a bunch of people who paid to see this movie; lots of people in this thread have seen it twice. Is there a single person here you expect is going to convert this double standard or misogyny you perceive into them not seeing the next one? What is the risk? The damage?

Even IF your most uncharitable, cynical view was accurate: so what?

Are you really saying "so what" to having a problem with women not being on equal footing with men? Because to be honest, jack, that's my "most uncharitable, cynical" view of this situation. I'm not trying to talk them out of seeing a movie. I love the movie. All I'm ever trying to do is point out missteps that, statistically, millions of people are practically required to fall victim to, and a bunch of people, no matter what, seem to think by doing so I'm accusing them of being the most abhorrent, bigoted, lady-punchingest dudes on planet earth. I'm not. I'm really, really not. I'm just trying to add a new wrinkle to your perspectives, and at worst "call things as I see 'em," if you'd allow me that easy but reductive idiom, in a way that's unique, direct, and innovatory.

Sorry for the delay in responding, I type at GRRM-level speeds.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's a completely different usage of the force. Kylo Ren was using the force as a means of torture/interrogation, as Vader did to Han Solo:

It's typical interrogation via physical pain, except the tool is the Force. That's completely different than Jedi Mind Tricks, which is using the force as a means of mental suggestion - which typically was accompanied by a change in tone and gesture.

Um what? No. Vader wasn't using the force at all in that scene. And it's not a different technique at all, they all involve accessing the mind in some way. Rey isn't someone who doubts what the force can do unlike Luke. She's a lot more deservedly confident.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Here's the thing, saying that the film "didn't allow Rey to properly develop" implies that there are rules that she must follow to not be considered a Mary Sue or OP.

There has to be some believable threat in order for a story to have tension. When a character never fails at what they set out to do, then that threat does not exist and the story is worse off for it.

 

[harSon]

Um what? No. Vader wasn't using the force at all in that scene.

Damn, I haven't seen the Empire Strikes Back in years Lol. Regardless, unless Abrams retconned the way Jedi Mind Tricks - what Kylo Ren was doing was not Jedi Mind Tricks. Considering how meticulous they were in adhering to the rules of the universe, especially with respect to the original trilogy - Jedi Mind Tricks have an extremely distinctive visual look and tonal sound to it. And it's only supposed to work on the weak-minded, unless you consider Poe weak minded considering Kylo Ren was doing the same shit to him that she was doing to Ren.

Unless you're suggesting that she somehow extracted the knowledge in a reverse mind probing?

 

[Renekton]

He witnessed it but he didn't directly experience it. She in that scene is directly feeling the force being used to probe her mind. As we saw with Poe this works easily on non force sensitive individuals even if they try to resist.

Sitting just beside him, he can at least feel it or at least ask Kenobi how he did it later.

If he didn't know or care, then worse still he has a case of the derps which further counts against him on the Rey comparisons

There has to be some believable threat in order for a story to have tension. When a character never fails at what they set out to do, then that threat does not exist and the story is worse off for it.

Ya. Writers may end up with a Matrix Reloaded Neo where they have to keep Rey occupied elsewhere to generate threat.

 

[Crossing Eden]

There has to be some believable threat in order for a story to have tension. When a character never fails at what they set out to do, then that threat does not exist and the story is worse off for it.

Dude, even while he was wounded she still struggled.

She continued to struggle after using the force as well, it wasn't a clean fight, it was two people hacking at each other.

If Kylo Ren wasn't wounded and under orders to bring her to Snoke he would've destroyed her easily. He was a very legitimate threat and still is considering he's not dead and will likely come back extremely pissed when the odds evened in his favor.

Damn, I haven't seen the Empire Strikes Back in years Lol. Regardless, unless Abrams retconned the way Jedi Mind Tricks - what Kylo Ren was doing was not Jedi Mind Tricks. Considering how meticulous they were in adhering to the rules of the universe, especially with respect to the original trilogy - Jedi Mind Tricks have an extremely distinctive visual look and tonal sound to it. And it's only supposed to work on the weak-minded, unless you consider Poe weak minded considering Kylo Ren was doing the same shit to him that she was doing to Ren.

Unless you're suggesting that she somehow extracted the knowledge in a reverse mind probing?

It's a variant on using the force to access the mind. And yes, the ability to resist is what gave her the idea to try a mind trick. Poe isn't weak minded, he just isn't force sensitive at all meaning he can't resist.

Sitting just beside him, he can at least feel it or at least ask Kenobi how he did it later.

If he didn't know or care, then worse still he has a case of the derps which further counts against him on the Rey comparisons


Ya. Writers may end up with a Matrix Reloaded Neo where they have to keep Rey occupied elsewhere to generate threat.

His response very much implies that he didn't sense it either. It was one of the things he learned to do on his own apparently. And yea he is derpy. This is him training outside Kenobi's hut.

;P

 

[igordennis]

Damn, I haven't seen the Empire Strikes Back in years Lol. Regardless, unless Abrams retconned the way Jedi Mind Tricks - what Kylo Ren was doing was not Jedi Mind Tricks. Considering how meticulous they were in adhering to the rules of the universe, especially with respect to the original trilogy - Jedi Mind Tricks have an extremely distinctive visual look and tonal sound to it. And it's only supposed to work on the weak-minded, unless you consider Poe weak minded considering Kylo Ren was doing the same shit to him that she was doing to Ren.

Unless you're suggesting that she somehow extracted the knowledge in a reverse mind probing?

From Kylo trying to mess with her head which further awakened her powers and made the force into a tangible thing (whereas when she used on the falcon she didn't know how she did it) + believing (because you gotta believe in the force) in the myths of force users. Thus she tried it out (because why not) and after getting in the right mental state she managed to use it on a arguably weak willed person after failing two times. Really not hard to understand at all.

Did you see my post? Are you not satisfied with that explanation? Why?

Edit: going to sleep so wont answer now

 

[Syntsui]

Dude, even while he was wounded she still struggled.

If Kylo Ren wasn't wounded and under orders to bring her to Snoke he would've destroyed her easily.

Yeah, that's a point A LOT of people are missing. Ren was emotionally affected after killing his dad and with a lot of wounds from Chewie and Finn. He would've wrecked everyone if he was 100%.

Also, lets not forget that his training wasn't even complete, so he can't be consider the epitome of sith warrior anyway.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

This whole debate has turned into a game of Whack-A-Mole. Naysayers complain about something Rey did, it’s explained how her abilities are consistent with other Star Wars movies, and a new complaint is brought up.

“Rey never should have been able to pilot the Falcon as well as she did! She’s never flown it before!”

True, she said she’d never flown the Falcon, but it was heavily implied she had been on the ship before, and had possibly even been repairing it. She knew about the compressor that had been placed on the hyperdrive and she knew exactly where the switches and gauges were to fly the thing. On top of that, her first words to Finn once they got on the ship were “Gunner position’s down there!” The fact she knew exactly where they’d both need to be in order to make a hasty retreat proves she had some familiarity with the ship.

Plus, she said she was a pilot. We simply don’t have enough information to know how good she was, but we know she could fly.

“So a ship she’s never flown, she’s suddenly able to fly with expert skill? Bullshit. She's never even been off-planet as far as we know.”

That’s consistent with other Star Wars heroes. In fact, Rey’s first flight is the most realistic of the three main heroes in the saga.

Here’s her first takeoff:

And here’s Luke’s first takeoff in an X-Wing, a ship he had never piloted before:

And Anakin's first time piloting a ship he’d never even fucking seen before?

And he'd never been off-planet or flown anything other than a racing hovercraft before.

”But Luke called himself a great pilot and we know he wasn't just talking shit because reasons. And the prequels don’t count because it fucks with my narrative. But anyway, onto the next thing.

"Rey shouldn't have been able to defeat Kylo Ren so easily. He's far more advanced in the use of the Force than she is!"

Well, besides the fact that we see she's pretty damn connected to the Force too (when Ren tries to penetrate her mind and she actually blocks him and even gets into his mind a bit), and we know she's a great fighter after fighting on Jakku, it's not like fighting Ren was a cakewalk for her. For the majority of the fight, she was running from him, swinging with both arms to block his attacks as he casually blocked and parried using one hand.

So in this fight, you have a man who had just been shot in the kidney:

Who was bleeding from that wound:

And whose planet-sized spaceship was on the verge of blowing up (I'm not adding a gif of that because you can't not remember that happening), beating his opponent pretty handily until he mentions the Force. The moment he does, it awakens a memory in Rey and she goes all zen-like for a moment. Once she opens her eyes, she's ready to kick ass:

"But that's the problem! How'd she know to let the Force guide her like that??"

Maz Kanata clued her in. After Rey's vision in the basement of Maz's bar, Maz says to her, "I'm no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you."

And what amazing words of wisdom did Obi Wan have for Luke that caused him to go from this:

To this:

Well, at first he said, "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us; it penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." Not much help there. Doesn't actually teach anyone how to use it.

Later, as Luke is being shot by the laser ball, Obi says, "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."

Luke asks if controls your actions. Obi says "Partially, but it also obeys your commands."

Then he puts the blast shielded helmet on Luke and says "This time, let go your conscious self, and act on instinct. Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings."

Just the same mystical mumbo jumbo Maz gives Rey. But when Luke learns how to use the Force after that tiny bit of horseshit, there's no issue. When Rey taps into the Force after the horseshit she was fed, it's bad storytelling.

So anyway, during the battle with Ren, as soon as he mentions the Force, Rey says "the Force?," then closes her eyes and lets it guide her into kicking the wounded man's ass. The wounded man who hasn't even completed his training yet. This really isn't that unbelievable.

"Yes it is! His training is still superior to hers! There's no reason someone who has displayed mastery over saber-fighting should lose to someone who hasn't been training or fighting as long!"

"Doesn't count. Obi Wan gave himself up."

Because he knew he was bested.

"Your mom was bested. He gave himself up because he wanted to be a ghost and help Luke. So the point stands. You never see a superior fighter lose to a noob until Rey comes along."

And this was after Maul had demonstrated his superior skills by not only holding his own against a Jedi and his Padawan, but also after killing Obi's own master, thereby removing any doubt about his skill with a lightsaber. Hell, Maul didn't even have the excuse that he was wounded or stressed or anything else. He was in peak form and lost like a bitch to a Padawan. And he even had the high ground!

"Not to rapidly change the subject, but what was up with Rey snatching the lightsaber with the Force like that? How would she even know that the Force lets people move shit with their mind?"

Ren showed her earlier:

"Okay, so she knows the power exists. But how does she know she has that power?"

We talked about this. Maz clued Rey in to the idea that she's connected to the Force after her vision. And Rey successfully tested that connection by doing the Jedi Mind Trick earlier (which took a few tries...she's not a pro yet; just obviously very connected to the Force).

"Ah ha! 'Not a pro'! A Force noob shouldn't be able to use the Force to pull a lightsaber to themselves! That's an advanced skill that takes a lot of training to be able to--"

This is pre-Yoda, when the only training Luke has had was Obi whispering a few sweet nothings in his ear. Also, Luke was wounded and groggy, yet was able to pull it off. In TFA, it's Kylo Ren who is wounded and groggy, so Rey is able to use the Force to pull the saber to herself.

"Yeah, but that also doesn't fit my narrative. So you lose."

------------------------------

I apologize for the size of this post, but I feel like maybe having some visual aids will help with the explanations. If you quote this, please delete the gifs, so pages become totally unreadable (hopefully it's not too terrible with just the one set of gifs from this post).

 

[Veelk]

The ability to sniff out imminent danger is one of the qualities of the force. It's actually one of the few qualities that are clear as day and generally agreed upon, and provable within the context of the universe time and time again. It's the reason only those who are force sensitive can deflect lasers with their light sabers.

This isn't simply being aware of the imminent danger, but reacting to it. It's clearly demonstrated by the difference in posture of how Luke uses the lightsaber. First he's chasing the laser blasts, but afterwards, he moves in a wholly different manner.

Sending a disturbance is one thing. Here, however, he is countering it with a flowing motion that is miles separate from what he was doing before. The force here is doing more than simply sensing, but also carrying the knowledge of where he needs to be to counter the shot. Which is exactly what Rey did. She only overpowered him after he was wounded yet again, this time in the leg, rendering him immobile, but before, she simply placed the lightsaber in the correct position to counter him.

That's probably the best rationale for why Rey can do what she did. You only control the force insofar as it controls you.

 

[Renekton]

Yeah, that's a point A LOT of people are missing. Ren was emotionally affected after killing his dad and with a lot of wounds from Chewie and Finn. He would've wrecked everyone if he was 100%.

Also, lets not forget that his training wasn't even complete, so he can't be consider the epitome of sith warrior anyway.

So let's say Kylo at 75% training completion gets completely annihilated by Rey at 10% training completion, after she closed her eyes. At EP8, 100% Kylo would get rekt even harder by Rey at 40%.

Rey got bopped into a tree at bone-fracture heights, and emotionally rekt by the saber scene and confirmation of absent parenting. That should count if you want to be fair.

 

[Veelk]

Yeah, I notice that a lot of the arguments are basically repeats of the arguments we've had 10 pages ago. The same reasons for why it works and why it doesn't work is brought up over and over. And a lot of the conversation has devolved into debating whether Rey is a Mary Sue by people who have clearly not read the OP, which is frustrating to me as I spent quite a bit of time detailing why it's a term that should be taken out behind the shed and shot between the eyes.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yeah, that's a point A LOT of people are missing. Ren was emotionally affected after killing his dad and with a lot of wounds from Chewie and Finn. He would've wrecked everyone if he was 100%.

Also, lets not forget that his training wasn't even complete, so he can't be consider the epitome of sith warrior anyway.

Not to mention this, dude was a flipping padawan when he killed the others. Kylo Ren is still a padawan technically yet somehow we're supposed to believe that he's a master. Also amazing post above.

 

[Syntsui]

So let's say Kylo at 75% training completion gets completely annihilated by Rey at 10% training completion, after she closed her eyes. At EP8, 100% Kylo would get rekt even harder by Rey at 40%.

Rey got bopped into a tree at bone-fracture heights, and emotionally rekt by the saber scene and confirmation of absent parenting. That should count if you want to be fair.

No, we won't say that, this RPG logic is absurd. We have zero idea about what will happen in the future or how powerful they will be.

Also, Rey's wounds weren't nearly as bad as Ren's and her emotional trauma isn't as bad as his, considering how weak minded he showed himself during most of his scenes.

 

[Brakke]

I think folks such as yourself are so used to Luke doing it that you don't stop to think about how crazy it really is, how little "training" Luke gets, and when combined with the "impossible" shot at the end (also with no training), the fact that his feats are really not so different from Rey's.

Rey is learning from Kylo through actions, mostly from him working her over. Luke got a few fluffy words of encouragement from Obi-Wan and that's literally all, but somehow the latter constitutes robust training. Meanwhile, having someone messing with your head and pushing them out in a reflex of anger, and then realizing you can do that, is totally out of bounds.

This is a massive double standard.

You're being patronizing and you're exaggerating my claim and I don't appreciate either. I didn't claim that Luke had "robust training" nor did I claim that Rey's performance is "totally out of bounds". It's honestly uncomfortable to see this attitude from a mod. If I think you're doing a bad faith read of me, maybe I should just stop engaging in fear for my account.

I don't think there's a "massive double standard" in this comparison. There's a clear reason for the standard to be different: Luke beats a robot and Rey beats a trained, experienced human adversary. Those are clearly different situations in-universe and they're especially clearly different situations in the drama. It's pretty easy for me to recognize that difference and it doesn't take some mysterious clouding of my ability to "stop and think" to do so.

I'm never even venerating Like. I called him a "goober" just a couple hours ago.

Are you really saying "so what" to having a problem with women not being on equal footing with men? Because to be honest, jack, that's my "most uncharitable, cynical" view of this situation. I'm not trying to talk them out of seeing a movie. I love the movie. All I'm ever trying to do is point out missteps that, statistically, millions of people are practically required to fall victim to, and a bunch of people, no matter what, seem to think by doing so I'm accusing them of being the most abhorrent, bigoted, lady-punchingest dudes on planet earth. I'm not. I'm really, really not. I'm just trying to add a new wrinkle to your perspectives, and at worst "call things as I see 'em," if you'd allow me that easy but reductive idiom, in a way that's unique, direct, and innovatory.

Sorry for the delay in responding, I type at GRRM-level speeds.

In what way is the question here about "women having equal footing with men"? Who has trouble with that idea? Certainly not me. Let's reframe the phenomenon we're seeing here. You framed it as, if I may paraphrase, "men being unwilling to buy an exceptional lady hero", implied there's some double-standard at play. But we could frame it as "here we see a bunch of men eager to discuss and explore a major female character".

If what we want is a world where we see more and more interesting female characters in film, then shouldn't it be clear that basically everyone in this thread agrees on that? To my eye the general positions are "I wish Rey was more interesting" and "Rey is interesting enough". Is critiquing Rey's characterization somehow inimical to that end? It's not clear to me how but I'm willing to entertain the idea if you're willing to actually articulate it.

I even basically like Rey! I've said so. My core thesis is the movie sort of does her wrong, the things that actually bother me about the plot is that the things I find most interesting about her aren't addressed. There's really nothing gender-inflected about that position at all, I would -- and have -- claimed the same about Kylo. Even Finn, I think, is under-sketched (his face-turn should humanize Stormtroopers as a body but they remain faceless cannon fodder throughout).

 

[Crossing Eden]

So let's say Kylo at 75% training completion gets completely annihilated by Rey at 10% training completion, after she closed her eyes. At EP8, 100% Kylo would get rekt even harder by Rey at 40%.

Rey got bopped into a tree at bone-fracture heights, and emotionally rekt by the saber scene and confirmation of absent parenting. That should count if you want to be fair.

Padawan level training is supposed to be 75% completion now?

 

[Renekton]

No, we won't say that, this RPG logic is absurd. We have zero idea about what will happen in the future or how powerful they will be.

Also, Rey's wounds weren't nearly as bad as Ren's and her emotional trauma isn't as bad as his, considering how weak minded he showed himself during most of his scenes.

If we are to accept Kylo's wounds are more dire, Rey displayed more distress over the two events than Kylo over Han. Bottom line, both had handicaps.

Padawan level training is supposed to be 75% completion now?

Well I'd think blaster bolt stopping is around there. But if we bump him down to 50%, the trajectory result is still the same versus EP8 Rey.

 

[munchie64]

Great post plop.

 

[BlastProcessing]

There has to be some believable threat in order for a story to have tension. When a character never fails at what they set out to do, then that threat does not exist and the story is worse off for it.

Rey does fail in the film. She sucks at flying the Falcon at first. She fucks up big time and releases 3 huge monsters when she was just supposed to hang tight and do nothing. She wanders off on her own because she can't even begin to face the idea that she has a destiny that isn't sitting on Jakku and looking up.

She is a hero from mythological archetype and you have to analyse her through that lens.

For me this film had way more tension than I have felt watching any other Star Wars film. Kylo Ren's instability made plenty of moments feel threatening.

 

[BlastProcessing]

If we are to accept Kylo's wounds are more dire, Rey displayed more distress over the two events than Kylo over Han. Bottom line, both had handicaps.


Well I'd think blaster bolt stopping is around there. But if we bump him down to 50%, the trajectory result is still the same versus EP8 Rey.

And Rey was the one who was able to calm her emotions and center herself. That's the whole point. She is a Star Wars hero; this is par for the course.

 

[Brakke]

Here’s her first takeoff:

I'mma pick one nit on this one. Even as they make a bumpy take-off here, Rey yells "it hasn't flown in years!" Is the bumpy take-off on Rey or is it on the Falcon itself, creaking into shape again? Once she gets airborne she's a champion of piloting.

In any case your comparison just isn't very interesting. This entire business of comparing Rey to Luke (and especially Anakin) is sort of folly to me. If you wanna say "Anakin's flying skills in TPM are absurd", then I'm certainly going to agree with you. You're fighting a strawman there. Nobody in the world has stood up to say "Anakin's piloting is believable / satisfying but Rey's isn't". Find me anyone, anywhere who isn't willing to roll eyes at precocious little Ani.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I don't think there's a "massive double standard" in this comparison. There's a clear reason for the standard to be different: Luke beats a robot and Rey beats a trained, experienced human adversary. Those are clearly different situations in-universe and they're especially clearly different situations in the drama.

He doesn't just beat a robot. He also makes a near-impossible shot on the first try, on his first time in an X-Wing (which Luke mentions has a malfunctioning stabilizer...he says this to his helpful R2-unit a few moments before its blown up), and without use of a guidance computer, because a ghost whispered to him that he should trust his feelings.

She beat a wounded and distracted man because she trusted her feelings.

I'mma pick one nit on this one. Even as they make a bumpy take-off here, Rey yells "it hasn't flown in years!" Is the bumpy take-off on Rey or is it on the Falcon itself, creaking into shape again? Once she gets airborne she's a champion of piloting.

In any case your comparison just isn't very interesting. This entire business of comparing Rey to Luke (and especially Anakin) is sort of folly to me. If you wanna say "Anakin's flying skills in TPM are absurd", then I'm certainly going to agree with you. You're fighting a strawman there. Nobody in the world has stood up to say "Anakin's piloting is believable / satisfying but Rey's isn't". Find me anyone, anywhere who isn't willing to roll eyes at precocious little Ani.

I agree Ani's skills were absurd. But that's the point. Absurdity is the soup of the day in Star Wars. Rey doing fantastic shit because she needs to is just another day at the office. Par for the course. Other metaphors.

Also the Falcon wasn't creaking into shape again, I don't think. The thrusters didn't misfire, nothing looked broken operationally. I think it was just her getting her legs with a new craft. Since she's flown, but hasn't flown the Falcon.

 

[GhaleonEB]

This whole debate has turned into a game of Whack-A-Mole. Naysayers complain about something Rey did, it’s explained how her abilities are consistent with other Star Wars movies, and a new complaint is brought up.

*the amazing*

Nice post, plop.

 

[Brakke]

He doesn't just beat a robot. He also makes a near-impossible shot on the first try, on his first time in an X-Wing (which Luke mentions has a malfunctioning stabilizer...he says this to his helpful R2-unit a few moments before its blown up), and without use of a guidance computer, because a ghost whispered to him that he should trust his feelings.

She beat a wounded and distracted man because she trusted her feelings.

None of this is in the scope of the comparison Ghaleon made. Follow the quotes back. The specific claim was Luke blocking the shots was more impressive than anything Rey does in TFA.

EDIT: this one: http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=190446575

 

[Terrible_Majesty]

I think folks such as yourself are so used to Luke doing it that you don't stop to think about how crazy it really is, how little "training" Luke gets, and when combined with the "impossible" shot at the end (also with no training), the fact that his feats are really not so different from Rey's.

Rey is learning from Kylo through actions, mostly from him working her over. Luke got a few fluffy words of encouragement from Obi-Wan and that's literally all, but somehow the latter constitutes robust training. Meanwhile, having someone messing with your head and pushing them out in a reflex of anger, and then realizing you can do that, is totally out of bounds.

This is a massive double standard.

this makes the force sound more like weight training. Luke was working out with 5lb weights while Rey went all in with 100lbs and started realizing her potential sooner.

My point is: the more resistance and the more adversity = the stronger one comes out of it and the individual's progress parallels the difficulty of the challenge.

Also we dont know how long Kylo has been training and how long Rey has been training with her weapon skills - she seemed proficient with the staff, as well as her possible training before she was abandoned.

 

[Not]

Haha

In what way is the question here about "women having equal footing with men"? Who has trouble with that idea? Certainly not me. Let's reframe the phenomenon we're seeing here. You framed it as, if I may paraphrase, "men being unwilling to buy an exceptional lady hero", implied there's some double-standard at play. But we could frame it as "here we see a bunch of men eager to discuss and explore a major female character".

We could. We could. It's just kind of a stretch to see the disproportionate amount of criticism directed toward Rey's character compared to other male heroes in similar roles as a positive thing, even if you live by the mantra, "at least they're talkin' 'bout it."

If what we want is a world where we see more and more interesting female characters in film, then shouldn't it be clear that basically everyone in this thread agrees on that? To my eye the general positions are "I wish Rey was more interesting" and "Rey is interesting enough". Is critiquing Rey's characterization somehow inimical to that end? It's not clear to me how but I'm willing to entertain the idea if you're willing to actually articulate it.

Again, it's pretty hard for me to believe that everyone arguing that Rey is one of the hardest parts of the movie to accept for some reason is consciously trying to elevate the role of women in blockbusters and promote feminism by complaining how "perfect" Rey's character is. I agree with you; I like Rey too. I think they were successful in her depiction in the movie, and if we really were striving for representation equality we'd naturally just be satisfied with that depiction, like we would a male hero, despite their in-movie flaws. Essentially, even if this hypothetical scenario where, somehow, in a world where white women were allowed to vote in the USA less than a hundred years ago and places like Saudi Arabia still exist, well-meaning people trying to critique the lead female character above all others because she "deserves" the added attention would be misguided.

I even basically like Rey! I've said so. My core thesis is the movie sort of does her wrong, the things that actually bother me about the plot is that the things I find most interesting about her aren't addressed. There's really nothing gender-inflected about that position at all, I would -- and have -- claimed the same about Kylo. Even Finn, I think, is under-sketched (his face-turn should humanize Stormtroopers as a body but they remain faceless cannon fodder throughout).

And like I said, I'm not aiming at you and you only, guy. I know what I'm doing may be the forum equivalent of shouting on a street corner, but I believe it's naive to think that everyone who reads my post possesses the level-headed objectivity you may have. And really, If you think what I'm saying doesn't apply to you all, there might not even be a need by you personally to chastise my point of view.

 

[Veelk]

I agree Ani's skills were absurd. But that's the point. Absurdity is the soup of the day in Star Wars. Rey doing fantastic shit because she needs to is just another day at the office. Par for the course. Other metaphors.

That's what drives me up the wall more than anything. If you want to think some of the stuff Rey pulls off is absurd, okay. I think the film did a good job justifying the protagonists abilities, but I can see how some might disagree. But the turning around and pretending that Luke was somehow a half wit that made it through everything by fucking up everything when he easily pulled off things of the same calibre is just tiresome at this point.

 

[SixMachine]

Well I'd think blaster bolt stopping is around there. But if we bump him down to 50%, the trajectory result is still the same versus EP8 Rey.

Actually blindfolded blaster bolt deflecting is pretty much youngling training. In the prequels you can see them practicing, Luke pretty much got the basic training 12 years or so later than he should have. People also make it sound like Luke was damn good at it, which is quite the opposite, he actually gets shot, then does it after getting corrected properly.

Anyways, Star Was is a power fantasy for a lot of people, I think Luke, Anakin, and Rey definitely are meant to exemplify that idea. Anakin in Phantom Menace was pretty groan inducing, the only way they could make it more obvious if there was some holographic sign saying chosen one over his head 24/7. I know people are going to make explanations for everything because to be honest if someone didn't go on wookiepedia to explain every single detail I would be disappointed, I can still not like how contrived some scenarios were played out and are written. I personally dislike McGuffin powerups that seem established to get the characters out of a jam, sure there might be a setup but if it happens too soon it makes it feel unearned. I also didn't like how the last fight was basically a shonen powerup, where someone is losing, then after a brief pause to meditate or clear their mind, they somehow are 300% stronger than they were at the start of the fight, injury and fatigue be damned. It's a personal preference, and I don't think any of the Star Wars before really relied on it for a final fight, though they have done something even more dumb like have Darth Maul stare at Obi-Wan doing a fancy flip like a dunce or have Anakin attempting the same dumb move but Obi-Wan at least had the brains to smack the shit out of him for it.

 

[Terrible_Majesty]

Here's the thing, saying that the film "didn't allow Rey to properly develop" implies that there are rules that she must follow to not be considered a Mary Sue or OP. Or that there are rules behind the force that she isn't strictly following as a force sensitive individual. Or that she pulled off everything flawlessly.

I dont think it has anything to do with being a Mary Sue or OP and more to do with effective storytelling. We can be damned sure that if this were a 10 hour movie, this would be better explained and developed.

 

[Crossing Eden]

If we are to accept Kylo's wounds are more dire, Rey displayed more distress over the two events than Kylo over Han. Bottom line, both had handicaps.


Well I'd think blaster bolt stopping is around there. But if we bump him down to 50%, the trajectory result is still the same versus EP8 Rey.

No it doesn't because you're using arbitrary math that you came up with. There's no trajectory, there's only context.

 

[GhaleonEB]

You're being patronizing and you're exaggerating my claim and I don't appreciate either. I didn't claim that Luke had "robust training" nor did I claim that Rey's performance is "totally out of bounds". It's honestly uncomfortable to see this attitude from a mod. If I think you're doing a bad faith read of me, maybe I should just stop engaging in fear for my account.

You are not being persecuted, and I am not being patronizing, though I was being more curt than I usually am. (Had to go do the dishes.) We don't ban folks simply for disagreeing around here, particularly when they are taking the time to be engaged in the discussion. You've done absolutely nothing wrong. Relax.

I was talking about the contrasts between Luke and Rey's experiences and the ways in which they learned. In your post you said "Rey clearly does more impressive Force things than Luke beating the remote." I took that to mean you think Rey's are not as plausible as Luke's, nothing more. (My comment about training was more about Harson's post, which I should have been more clear on.) I disagree with that pretty strongly.

Even granting that Rey does more than Luke, I still would argue it's consistent with the rules the films establish. I don't think Obi's words of wisdom mean that Luke was trained better than Rey, just that they learned differently. Luke with some nudging from Obi-wan, and Rey through having an active force user apply it to her. I learn more from action than words, so I find myself relating more to things like Rey having Kylo toss her around and learning from that, as opposed to Obi-wan's brief training of Luke through phrases like "stretch out with your feelings". But I think in the context of both films, that's how they learned what they did and I think both are valid within the rules the films establish.

 

[SystemBug]

Yo spoilers.

I'm pretty sure Rey is one of Lukes previous students. One that Kylo might not have killed. Luke probably tried wiping her memories clean via the force.

The force in her was put to sleep, and now it was awakened and with that whatever Luke might have taught her.

 

[Brakke]

Thanks Ghaleon, I appreciate the conciliation.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Nice post, plop.

Tag-worthy?

Spoiler

Just kidding! I know better than to ask for a tag. It's always like a Twilight Zone episode where the person gets their wish, but it's all twisted and horrible. I don't want to go through life tagged as a discarded dildo sniffer or something

Yo spoilers.

I'm pretty sure Rey is one of Lukes previous students. One that Kylo might not have killed. Luke probably tried wiping her memories clean via the force.

The force in her was put to sleep, and now it was awakened and with that whatever Luke might have taught her.

This seems to be a prevailing theory. It's makes sense she'd be an advanced student of Luke's who Ren was jealous of (which led the petulant dick to kill everyone out of spite or to puff out his chest and prove how powerful he is), considering how powerful her connection to the Force appears to be and how angry Ren got when he found out Solo and Finn were helped by "a girl."

 

[plasmawave]

Yo spoilers.

I'm pretty sure Rey is one of Lukes previous students. One that Kylo might not have killed. Luke probably tried wiping her memories clean via the force.

The force in her was put to sleep, and now it was awakened and with that whatever Luke might have taught her.

Then Kylo would have known about her and not acted surprised after founding out that she could use the force.

 

[Brakke]

Spoiler

Just kidding! I know better than to ask for a tag. It's always like a Twilight Zone episode where the person gets their wish, but it's all twisted and horrible. I don't want to go through life tagged as a discarded dildo sniffer or something

Spoiler

In my personal experience the tag wish does come all twisted and horrible.

Spoiler

>.<

 

[GhaleonEB]

Thanks Ghaleon, I appreciate the conciliation.

Re-reading my post it did come across a bit snippy. (There were a lot of dishes.) Sorry 'bout that. I try not to end my post with declarations like that but that's where I bolted down the stairs. :lol

Spoiler

In my personal experience the tag wish does come all twisted and horrible.

Spoiler

>.<

This is very true.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Spoiler

In my personal experience the tag wish does come all twisted and horrible.

Spoiler

>.<

Lmao that's fantastic!

I mean, it's horrible, but it's horrible in a funny way. Like when a whoopie cushion factory catches fire.

 

[Renekton]

No it doesn't because you're using arbitrary math that you came up with. There's no trajectory, there's only context.

Okay no math. Guy with non-trivial training from Luke and Snoke who stopped a blaster bolt and (allegedly) beat the other guys in Luke's training group. Girl with no force training. Guy got seriously owned after her force awakened. Girl has likely more upside. Guy is toast.

Altho I should stop taking 4-6 too literally since Lucas is a genuine kook haha

He doesn't just beat a robot. He also makes a near-impossible shot on the first try, on his first time in an X-Wing (which Luke mentions has a malfunctioning stabilizer...he says this to his helpful R2-unit a few moments before its blown up), and without use of a guidance computer, because a ghost whispered to him that he should trust his feelings.

- Kenobi said "Strike me down and I become more powerful than you will ever imagine", so he was not just a ghost whisper.

- What is the force mastery level required in this bomb shot feat? Was there material or energy manipulation? Nope just CoD aim-assist.

- Was it personal proficiency like Rey's piloting, fighting or mechanical? Nope.

- Would the same power help him in other aspects like avoiding Vader? Nope, Han bailed him out.

 

[RockTurtle]

my theory is that the force is trying to re-establish balance and Rey just happened to be given a boost to makeup for dark force users.

kinda like king of fighters, the force picked rey with a 3 ratio to dark force 2-1.

i just think the movie would have been better if it maybe had 30 min - 1 hr long boost to better cement her skillsets. i did find her kinda moving at 80mph while everyone else was cruise control.

finn had a nicer transition and his -baby-horse-learning-to-walk trying to learn to do the right thing was funny and enjoyable. but maybe it was easier to swallow given his background and not having the potential of the force as a bailout card (that we know of yet)

but i guess it was just a safe by the numbers movie trying to setup a threequel and it might have hurt the narrative a bit

 

[Hellwarden]

I find it interesting that people aren't really debating whether or not Rey is a good character on her own, but rather if Rey is a good character by Star War standards.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Goddamn son

 

[New002]

This whole debate has turned into a game of Whack-A-Mole. Naysayers complain about something Rey did, it’s explained how her abilities are consistent with other Star Wars movies, and a new complaint is brought up.

First off, solid post, especially for someone like me that has only seen most of the movies once. The two things that bothered me still bother me, but given your examples it seems pretty clear that her actions are reasonable within the context of this universe. That's just Star Wars for you I guess

 

[excelsiorlef]

I find it interesting that people aren't really debating whether or not Rey is a good character on her own, but rather if Rey is a good character by Star War standards.

Because frankly that's all that matters

 

[Hellwarden]

Because frankly that's all that matters

Does it? If Rey is just a good character by Star Wars standards then she's safe to be honest. She's a totally normal Star Wars character.

I don't think she's really worth this much debate to be honest.