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[Napoleonthechimp]

It is kind of a cheat, but not a deux ex machina. The idea of the Force is something that's told to the viewer early in the story. A deus ex machina is something that isn't related to anything else in the story and appears out of literally nowhere to save the day.

The Force is really no different than, say, magic in the Harry Potter movies. The writers just have to tread carefully and not use such aspects in a way that's not conductive to the story they are telling.

That's the thing. The force appears out of nowhere to do specific things whenever it is required. Explaining away that, and also the coincidental meetings of all the characters, as something the force had a hand in is... lazy. I just can't accept it as a valid explanation.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Wut.

When was Luke anything other than uber confident? He goes from never hearing about the Force to 100% believing it instantly. He has no problems with the idea that he is special. He is the one who should go and save this princess! Obviously. When they talk about the impossible Death Star shot, he's all like "That's super easy! I do it all the time!" showing no understanding for how difficult it is. He's basically Homer in the Frank Grimes episode, "What, you've never used your preternatural skills to bullseye womp rats?"

I guess unsure was the wrong word. Or rather, while Luke was confident I was unsure about him. He carried himself as a person with a bunch of unwarranted confidence and that was shown multiple times (not to say he didn't have lot of successes as well) whereas Rey seemed confident, and despite relatively minor setbacks (such as almost crashing the Falcon and getting captured) actually seemed warranted in it

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

Ken Tremendous says anyone who thinks Rey is a Mary Sue is a misogynist:



He tweets some more stuff explaining it but I think you get the idea.

Ken Tremendous is actually a well known television writer by the way.

Goddammit. Have we really reached a point in which a (somewhat) civil discussion on whether or not a female character is a Mary Sue is considered misogyny? It's not like people are saying "eww female lead character what the hell man?!" they're simply saying they don't like howshe went on to being this force to be reckoned with. Luke was OP as shit too, but they explained some of it. It was established that he was a great pilot, he flew aircrafts that were similar to the one he used in IV, he had great aim, as said when he could hit womb rats and stuff, etc. Not sure if anyone ever pointed it out until now though, either way it IS being brought up, so it's not one sided hate. I for one don't think she's a Mary Sue. If Luke is her father than Darth freaking Vader is her grandfather, badass runs in her veins.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I guess unsure was the wrong word. Or rather, while Luke was confident I was unsure about him. He carried himself as a person with a bunch of unwarranted confidence and that was shown multiple times (not to say he didn't have lot of successes as well) whereas Rey seemed confident, and despite relatively minor setbacks (such as almost crashing the Falcon and getting captured) actually seemed warranted in it

That makes more sense.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Rey said she has flown before.

It's a subjective thing, but it seems like some people think Luke's abilities were telegraphed/foreshadowed/etc better than what Rey's was. Some of that is likely nostalgia, but I think Rey dropping the line and then flying through a Star Destroyer is a bit of a jump, especially compared to Luke... but compared to PM Anakin, it's perfectly fine.

 

[Scrooged]

That's the thing. The force appears out of nowhere to do specific things whenever it is required. Explaining away that, and also the coincidental meetings of all the characters, as something the force had a hand in is... lazy. I just can't accept it as a valid explanation.

Oh, yeah that's a poor explanation. Coincidental meetings are fairly common in a lot of movies due to practical reasons of telling a story. The only one in TFA that seems off to me is Han being near Jakku right as Rey escaped. But even that was explained. Han was actively looking for the Falcon and noticed it on his radar during his smuggle run.

 

[Brakke]

I guess unsure was the wrong word. Or rather, while Luke was confident I was unsure about him. He carried himself as a person with a bunch of unwarranted confidence and that was shown multiple times (not to say he didn't have lot of successes as well) whereas Rey seemed confident, and despite relatively minor setbacks (such as almost crashing the Falcon and getting captured) actually seemed warranted in it

Yeah that's interesting. Several times when Luke is doing exceptional things, people in the film are cutting him down. Han's "good against remotes is one thing, good against the living is something else"; Leia's "aren't you a little short for a Storm Trooper". Even the dude at the bar who gets his arm chopped off apparently picks a fight with Luke just because Luke looks like an out-of-place goober.

Oh, yeah that's a poor explanation. Coincidental meetings are fairly common in a lot of movies due to practical reasons of telling a story. The only one in TFA that seems off to me is Han being near Jakku right as Rey escaped. But even that was explained. Han was actively looking for the Falcon and noticed it on his radar during his smuggle run.

Rey also just happens into the one building in the whole galaxy that contains a functional light saber. maybe if Maz hadn't dodged the "how did it get here" question...

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Oh, yeah that's a poor explanation. Coincidental meetings are fairly common in a lot of movies due to practical reasons of telling a story. The only one in TFA that seems off to me is Han being near Jakku right as Rey escaped. But even that was explained. Han was actively looking for the Falcon and noticed it on his radar during his smuggle run.

The Falcon being on Jakku is the biggest one IMHO, as that is the linchpin in the story. It was stolen, but of all the planets in the galaxy it ended up on that specific one? Jakku didn't even come across as a trading hub

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's the thing. The force appears out of nowhere to do specific things whenever it is required. Explaining away that, and also the coincidental meetings of all the characters, as something the force had a hand in is... lazy. I just can't accept it as a valid explanation.

It never appears "out of nowhere." The whole point is that the force is always around in the first place and the characters, specifically Rey need to accept it as part of themselves.And showing the disconnect and gap between people who haven't and people who have. Which is why when someone has mastered it they can get it to do what they want 100% of the time.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

It never appears "out of nowhere." The whole point is that the force is always around in the first place and the characters, specifically Rey need to accept it as part of themselves.And showing the disconnect and gap between people who haven't and people who have.

The manifestations of the force appear out of nowhere. Why guide Rey to do this or that when it could just give all dark sides users a heart attack.

The reply I've gotten from others is "the force works in mysterious ways".

 

[Crossing Eden]

The manifestations of the force appear out of nowhere. Why guide Rey to do this or that when it could just give all dark sides users a heart attack.

The reply I've gotten from others is "the force works in mysterious ways".

Because it's not a sentient intelligent being. There is a dark side of the force, people embracing the dark side aren't embracing the light side at all.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Because it's not a sentient intelligent being. There is a dark side of the force, people embracing the dark side aren't embracing the light side at all.

But it has enough will to guide Rey? Which implies it has a goal and desires.

The only way I can make it work is by assuming it does nothing and is merely a passive force.

 

[Crossing Eden]

But it has enough will to guide Rey? Which implies it has a goal and desires.

No it doesn't have the will to guide Rey, she's in tune with it. It's guiding her in the sense that she's allowing herself to become in tune with it. The force doesn't have a goal or desires.

 

[kinggroin]

The force is always around and equally usable and accessible to those on the dark side and those on the light side. It's a pendulum.

It's not "out of nowhere". Kaylo Ren has been using it to great effect for some time now, but it's obvious the internal conflicts his character has is making his dark side usage of it...less pure. So he's weaker in it (aspects of its usage anyway).

Where as Rey isn't confused and knows what she wants from it and who she is within in better than KR. She can overpower him; especially considering how weakened he is.

Rey has probably always been using the light side of the force, but always subconsciously; and it wasn't until Ren tried the mind shit and let her consciously feel what it's like to tap into it, that she was super soldiery.

Tldr

The more in tune with the force you are, the better you are at accomplishing what you desire.

 

[Not]

I see, so it's not "eww female lead character what the hell man?!", it's "female lead character, huh? I mean that's fine as long as she takes a long stroll through this fucking meat grinder of extensive and meticulous character justification to which we've never, ever subjected a male character, that is, until we have to prove we're not sexist by pointing out male characters with the same shortcomings long after the fact in an attempt to verify that we're approaching this topic objectively, and even then we'll mostly try to suggest that the aforementioned male characters were not nearly as troublesome as this lead female character."

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

No it doesn't have the will to guide Rey, she's in tune with it. It's guiding her in the sense that she's allowing herself to become in tune with it. The force doesn't have a goal or desires.

Uh huh.

So how does it guide anyone? Personally I think that side of things should be dropped. I'd rather assume she knows how to pilot the ship and be done with it.

I see, so it's not "eww female lead character what the hell man?!", it's "female lead character, huh? I mean that's fine as long as she takes a long stroll through this fucking meat grinder of extensive and meticulous character justification to which we've never, ever subjected a male character, that is, until we have to prove we're not sexist by pointing out male characters with the same shortcomings long after the fact in an attempt to verify that we're approaching this topic objectively, and even then we'll mostly try to suggest that the aforementioned male characters were not nearly as troublesome as this lead female character."

I hate it when people do this shit. This is one step away from calling people sexist misogynists.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I see, so it's not "eww female lead character what the hell man?!", it's "female lead character, huh? I mean that's fine as long as she takes a long stroll through this fucking meat grinder of extensive and meticulous character justification to which we've never, ever subjected a male character, that is, until we have to prove we're not sexist by pointing out male characters with the same shortcomings long after the fact in an attempt to verify that we're approaching this topic objectively, and even then we'll mostly try to suggest that the aforementioned male characters were not nearly as troublesome as this lead female character."

This is exactly why I can't really engage in these topics. Strawmans and arguing in bad faith.

 

[kinggroin]

Uh huh.

So how does it guide anyone? Personally I think that side of things should be dropped. I'd rather assume she knows how to pilot the ship and be done with it.

It's not guiding anyone. He said as much.


It's tapping into laws that bind everything so that YOUR will can be done.


Edit: Are we still arguing a faith based energy source within the context of a fictional film?

 

[Starsailor]

I still don't understant this thread.

Kylo wake up the Force inside of Rey right? She didn't did that by herself? That's what i understand during the interrogation scene.

Like Voldemort who create the scar on Harry Potter, by entering in Rey's head, Kylo Ren just create the instrument of his future destruction...

...no?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

It's not guiding anyone. He said as much.


It's tapping into laws that bind everything so that YOUR will can be done.

So it's basically The Secret? If characters wish hard enough then they too will get everything they want... as long as they're attuned to the force enough.

This is why I can't deal with this franchise. Lazy writing can be hand waved away with that kind of explanation.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I see, so it's not "eww female lead character what the hell man?!", it's "female lead character, huh? I mean that's fine as long as she takes a long stroll through this fucking meat grinder of extensive and meticulous character justification to which we've never, ever subjected a male character, that is, until we have to prove we're not sexist by pointing out male characters with the same shortcomings long after the fact in an attempt to verify that we're approaching this topic objectively, and even then we'll mostly try to suggest that the aforementioned male characters were not nearly as troublesome as this lead female character."

Knock it off.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Uh huh.

So how does it guide anyone? Personally I think that side of things should be dropped. I'd rather assume she knows how to pilot the ship and be done with it.

It's an energy field. One that is available to anyone who is sensitive to it, which comes naturally. It "guides" people in the sense that it allows them to sense what they should do next and grants them various abilities that aren't accessible to normal people.

Here the force is being used to predict the blaster shots and parry accordingly.

After a certain point it becomes second nature. For Rey, like Luke, she needs to make an effort to tap into it voluntarily instead of it being something she can use at any time. You're feeding way too much into the word "guide" and seem to be misunderstanding the concept.

So it's basically The Secret? If characters wish hard enough then they too will get everything they want... as long as they're attuned to the force enough.

This is why I can't deal with this franchise. Lazy writing can be hand waved away with that kind of explanation.

The force doesn't give anyone whatever they want. Oh my lord.

 

[Principate]

Ken Tremendous says anyone who thinks Rey is a Mary Sue is a misogynist:



He tweets some more stuff explaining it but I think you get the idea.

Ken Tremendous is actually a well known television writer by the way.

Gary Syu is a term that exists. The notion that Mary Sue is inherently sexist is equally inherently flawed as all you need to do is swap the character with a guy if you still have a problem with the character then it's simply the actions itself you have issue with if not then your obviously sexist. Rey is clearly overpowered in a bad way. I find it difficult to root for her when she's already defeated a major bad guy while a novice. It doesn't feel earned and screams of deus ex machina

 

[Crossing Eden]

Gary Syu is a term that exists. The notion that Mary Sue is inherently sexist is equally inherently flawed as all you need to do is swap the character with a guy if you still have a problem with the character then it's simply the actions itself you have issue with if not then your obviously sexist. Rey is clearly overpowered in a bad way. I find it difficult to root for her when she's already defeated a major bad guy while a novice. It doesn't feel earned and screams of deus ex machina

I can't believe that with such an extensive OP and posts from myself and others reiterating the context as well as explanations that were very clearly conveyed in the film over and over people are still completely ignoring the context which led to the win and resort to "she's OP!!11!"

 

[kinggroin]

So it's basically The Secret? If characters wish hard enough then they too will get everything they want... as long as they're attuned to the force enough.

This is why I can't deal with this franchise. Lazy writing can be hand waved away with that kind of explanation.

I knew it. You were arguing from a perspective of someone that didn't even buy the premise.

Why waste your time like this? It's like Neil Tyson hitting his head against the wall cause 14 par secs and not 12 or some shit.

 

[heliosRAzi]

The force doesn't give anyone whatever they want. Oh my lord.

Uh...

It never appears "out of nowhere." The whole point is that the force is always around in the first place and the characters, specifically Rey need to accept it as part of themselves.And showing the disconnect and gap between people who haven't and people who have. Which is why when someone has mastered it they can get it to do what they want 100% of the time.

I knew it. You were arguing from a perspective of someone that didn't even buy the premise.

Why waste your time like this? It's like Neil Tyson hitting his head against the wall cause 14 par secs and not 12 or some shit.

Suspension of disbelief only goes so far. "A Wizard Did It" makes the experience feel cheap and unearned.

 

[Starsailor]

I knew it. You were arguing from a perspective of someone that didn't even buy the premise.

Why waste your time like this? It's like Neil Tyson hitting his head against the wall cause 14 par secs and not 12 or some shit.

wtf... She learned the Force with Luke in her childhood and Kylo awake that memory during the interrogation scene...

 

[Principate]

I can't believe that with such an extensive OP and posts from myself and others reiterating the context as well as explanations that were very clearly conveyed in the film over and over people are still completely ignoring the context which led to the win and resort to "she's OP!!11!"

I've read it and it doesn't change the core tenets of the issue. Mary Sue is a crappy term sure but she most certainly is overpowered within the universe. Neither Anakin nor like we're this skilled and powerful. They actually went through formal training and spent time honing their skills Rey has done none of that yet she's able to best a force master.

I seriously question the cognitive abilties of anyone that swallows that whole sale with no issue whatsoever.

Unless there's a Regan like twist I'll continue to take issue with it

 

[entremet]

I can't believe that with such an extensive OP and posts from myself and others reiterating the context as well as explanations that were very clearly conveyed in the film over and over people are still completely ignoring the context which led to the win and resort to "she's OP!!11!"

Maybe people aren't convinced of those arguments?

I mean, this thread is still going, right? And we still have varying points of view on the topic.

We don't always have to reach consensus for everything.

 

[Sou Da]

I've read it and it doesn't change the core tenets of the issue. Mary Due is a crappy term sure but she most certainly is overpowered within the universe. Neithe Anakin nor like we're this skilled and powerful. They actually went through formal training and spent time honing their skills Rey has done none of that yet she's able to best a force master.

I seriously question the cognitive abilties of anyone that swallows that whole sale with no issue whatsoever.

She beat Snoke in this film?

 

[kinggroin]

Uh...

It sounds contradictory but what I think he meant was you can't just be like "hey force, give me three princess leias in bikinis.... Riiiight....NOW"

But rather using its binding properties to all the natural laws of the universe, you can manipulate people and situations and even properties with it so that you eventually acquire what you want. Obviously the more in time with this force you are, the easier it is to get laid.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I can't believe that with such an extensive OP and posts from myself and others reiterating the context as well as explanations that were very clearly conveyed in the film over and over people are still completely ignoring the context which led to the win and resort to "she's OP!!11!"

Winning the duel with Kylo can be excused because he's clearly not a top tier opponent. He's still in training and kind of an emotional wreck.

But I still think the mind control trick on the storm trooper is the worst scene of the film. It's questionable for something like that to come to Rey so easily, simply because I think that's the sort of thing that's going to be difficult to write around in the future. I expect Rey to have to "forget" how to use some of her skills in the future for the sake of advancing the plot in the right direction, but we'll see how it goes.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

It's an energy field. One that is available to anyone who is sensitive to it, which comes naturally. It "guides" people in the sense that it allows them to sense what they should do next.
Here the force is being used to predict where each blaster shot will land.

You're feeding way too much into the word "guide" and seem to be misunderstanding the concept.

"what they should do" is the issue in what you just said. This whole thing is far too woo woo for me.

As I said, I've got no problem with individual people using this energy field for their own needs (such as Luke guiding Rey remotely to wherever she needs to be) but the undefined nature of it reduces explanations of the plot within these movies down to the star wars equivalent of the "speedforce - i ain't gotta explain shit" gif.

I knew it. You were arguing from a perspective of someone that didn't even buy the premise.

Why waste your time like this? It's like Neil Tyson hitting his head against the wall cause 14 par secs and not 12 or some shit.

Because it is a god damned story that should be subject to the same criticisms regarding story structure as anything else. Just because there is a crazy fucking energy field doesn't make poor writing magically disappear. At least it doesn't to me anyway.

 

[Principate]

She beat Snoke in this film?

Ren had litteral years more experience than she did. Or does that not matter because she's the main character despite other main characters not being that bullshit overpowered

Your talking about a trained fighter against a literal novice, it's bad writing the kind seen in Shounen manga's the world over

 

[heliosRAzi]

Obviously the more in time with this force you are, the easier it is to get laid.

This is why people have a problem with her: she didn't have much time with it.

 

[kinggroin]

Uh...



Suspension of disbelief only goes so far. "A Wizard Did It" makes the experience feel cheap and unearned.

Look man. I'm not saying you HAVE to buy the premise of some faith based force property or magic or whatever the hell. I'm saying the defense of the situations being played on screen aren't stretches if you DO buy the premise to begin with.

This is why people have a problem with her: she didn't have much time with it.

Tune, not time. My autocorrect got me.


And my observation is that she's always been using it... Just not really knowing that she was.


Like..I honestly believe some people are more predisposed to believing in a high power in real life and others are atheists. Think of her as a pre-bible thumping born again christian.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I agree Rey uses the force a little too well by the end of the film for someone without any training and the like, but the piloting comments are weird to me. I didn't get the impression she was piloting the Millennium Falcon all that hot during that chase scene and they get stopped and boarded by Han Solo almost instantly. She's a competent pilot, but if we're comparing her to Luke then the latter destroying the Death Star stretches belief way more. Rey just needs a bit more backstory and there maybe needed to be a bit more in the way of scenes of her getting to grips with the force. Given Kylo Ren is no Darth Vader in terms of skills or emotional state (and the film wants you to know this), I don't think if they'd built her up a bit better Rey besting him during the finale would've stood out at all. Probably doesn't help Finn while not a bumbler definitely has more issues getting to grips with things and his own motivations, so Rey's thinner personality and frequent victories stick out all the more.

In the end both Rey and Luke are perfectly normal people compared to Anakin though. Dude is literally a baby genius in Episode 1 who goes on to act like a baby in the other prequels..

 

[Crossing Eden]

Uh...



Suspension of disbelief only goes so far. "A Wizard Did It" makes the experience feel cheap and unearned.

If the force allowed a user to do whatever they wanted they could actually do anything, but one of the major teachings is being humble. It makes Jedi have abilities that make them quite formidable but doesn't make them invincible, especially since we've seen the order get destroyed twice now. Saying it's unearned ignores the context where it's used.

I've read it and it doesn't change the core tenets of the issue. Mary Due is a crappy term sure but she most certainly is overpowered within the universe. Neithe Anakin nor like we're this skilled and powerful. They actually went through formal training and spent time honing their skills Rey has done none of that yet she's able to best a force master.

I seriously question the cognitive abilties of anyone that swallows that whole sale with no issue whatsoever.

Yes it does change the tenets of the issue. You'd think she could easily kill Snoke based off of the reactions to her power. Anakin, (or any prequel jedi) would've destroyed Rey the way she is now. Luke didn't even go into formal training until the second film. Also for the last time, this is exactly what I was talking about,
Kylo Ren is not a force master
Kylo Ren was heavily injured before fighting Rey
Kylo Ren was incredibly distressed while fighting her
Kylo Ren gave her a chance to breath and become in tune with the force because he had to capture her, not kill her

I'm sure it doesn't need to be reiterated that Rey unlike Luke also had prior combat experience.

Winning the duel with Kylo can be excused because he's clearly not a top tier opponent. He's still in training and kind of an emotional wreck.

But I still think the mind control trick on the storm trooper is the worst scene of the film. It's questionable for something like that to come to Rey so easily, simply because I think that's the sort of thing that's going to be difficult to write around in the future. I expect Rey to have to "forget" how to use some of her skills in the future for the sake of advancing the plot in the right direction, but we'll see how it goes.

Right before that scene she had just used the force to read Kylo's mind. Not to mention, unlike Luke, she never didn't actually believe in the force and knew about Jedi. It also didn't come easily since it only worked at the last second.

"what they should do" is the issue in what you just said. This whole thing is far too woo woo for me.

As I said, I've got no problem with individual people using this energy field for their own needs (such as Luke guiding Rey remotely to wherever she needs to be) but the undefined nature of it reduces explanations of the plot within these movies down to the star wars equivalent of the "speedforce - i ain't gotta explain shit" gif.


Because it is a god damned story that should be subject to the same criticisms regarding story structure as anything else. Just because there is a crazy fucking energy field doesn't make poor writing magically disappear. At least it doesn't to me anyway.

So basically you have a problem with the concept of space magic itself and are completely ignoring the rules established in the universe to suit the argument that it's poor writing? Because that's what you're doing. Like I don't understand what you want at this point.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Gary Syu is a term that exists. The notion that Mary Sue is inherently sexist is equally inherently flawed as all you need to do is swap the character with a guy if you still have a problem with the character then it's simply the actions itself you have issue with if not then your obviously sexist. Rey is clearly overpowered in a bad way. I find it difficult to root for her when she's already defeated a major bad guy while a novice. It doesn't feel earned and screams of deus ex machina

That's not really what A Deus Ex Machina is. If there is one in this film, it's the earthquake that ends the fight.

 

[Starsailor]

Ren had litteral years more experience than she did. Or does that not matter because she's the main character despite other main characters not being that bullshit overpowered

Your talking about a trained fighter against a literal novice, it's bad writing the kind seen in Shounen manga's the world over

Stop calling him Ren it's like calling Darth Vader : "Darth".
Ren is just a title. And it can be confusing with "Rey"

 

[kinggroin]

"what they should do" is the issue in what you just said. This whole thing is far too woo woo for me.

As I said, I've got no problem with individual people using this energy field for their own needs (such as Luke guiding Rey remotely to wherever she needs to be) but the undefined nature of it reduces explanations of the plot within these movies down to the star wars equivalent of the "speedforce - i ain't gotta explain shit" gif.



Because it is a god damned story that should be subject to the same criticisms regarding story structure as anything else. Just because there is a crazy fucking energy field doesn't make poor writing magically disappear. At least it doesn't to me anyway.

The writing is far from perfect, but your admitted cynisicm already adds a strong bias to your argument.. I see it as mostly explainable within the rules of this universe (filling in some blanks based on how they are behaving and how older movies played out) versus poor writing.

 

[plasmawave]

That's not really what A Deus Ex Machina is. If there is one in this film, it's the earthquake that ends the fight.

Not really, the star killer base was getting destroyed so it makes sense.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

If the force allowed a user to do whatever they wanted they could actually do anything, but one of the major teachings is being humble. It makes Jedi have abilities that make them quite formidable but doesn't make them invincible, especially since we've seen the order get destroyed twice now. Saying it's unearned ignores the context where it's used.


Yes it does change the tenets of the issue. You'd think she could easily kill Snoke based off of the reactions to her power. Anakin, (or any prequel jedi) would've destroyed Rey the way she is now. Luke didn't even go into formal training until the second film. Also for the last time, this is exactly what I was talking about,
Kylo Ren is not a force master
Kylo Ren was heavily injured before fighting Rey
Kylo Ren was incredibly distressed while fighting her
Kylo Ren gave her a chance to breath and become in tune with the force because he had to capture her, not kill her

I'm sure it doesn't need to be reiterated that Rey unlike Luke also had prior combat experience.

Luke didn't go one on one with Vader in the first movie. In fact he very clearly ran away. Even when he did clash with him the 2nd time he literally got his hand cut off. And him being able to one shot the death star is explained in the same way as Rey being able to pilot the falcon and defend herself: He's got some experience flying (admittedly on a planet), and has good aim shooting womp rats on Tatooine.

However, Kylo ain't no Vader.

 

[Principate]

If the force allowed a user to do whatever they wanted they could actually do anything, but one of the major teachings is being humble. It makes Jedi have abilities that make them quite formidable but doesn't make them invincible, especially since we've seen the order get destroyed twice now. Saying it's unearned ignores the context where it's used.


Yes it does change the tenets of the issue. You'd think she could easily kill Snoke based off of the reactions to her power. Anakin, (or any prequel jedi) would've destroyed Rey the way she is now. Luke didn't even go into formal training until the second film. Also for the last time, this is exactly what I was talking about,
Kylo Ren is not a force master
Kylo Ren was heavily injured before fighting Rey
Kylo Ren was incredibly distressed while fighting her
Kylo Ren gave her a chance to breath and become in tune with the force because he had to capture her, not kill her

I'm sure it doesn't need to be reiterated that Rey unlike Luke also had prior combat experience.

Kylo Ren had years of experience trained by fucking luke himself as well as snoke, to her he may as well have been.

Kylo Ren is a fucking dark side user they are always distressed they derive their powers from it.

The chance to breath was such a blatant plot device that it was insulting. Rey has never used a lightsaber before and that hand to hand combat experience was barely shown through the film.

 

[Starsailor]

Kylo Ren isn't a "fucking dark side user". He's angry most of all the time, he can't control his emotions like Vader did when he killed someone. He made mistakes (Kylo awake Rey powers!).

I'm agree with you that Kylo will be much more powerful than Darth Vader but at the whole plot of the movie was to show us the weakeness of Kylo.

There is a transformation for Kylo after he killed his father, he's much more crazy, darker than before. But he takes a shot by chewbacca and a snap by Finn. So i won't mind if Rey beat him using the Force.

 

[Brakke]

I see, so it's not "eww female lead character what the hell man?!", it's "female lead character, huh? I mean that's fine as long as she takes a long stroll through this fucking meat grinder of extensive and meticulous character justification to which we've never, ever subjected a male character, that is, until we have to prove we're not sexist by pointing out male characters with the same shortcomings long after the fact in an attempt to verify that we're approaching this topic objectively, and even then we'll mostly try to suggest that the aforementioned male characters were not nearly as troublesome as this lead female character."

Ridiculous, arrogant, asinine.

But mostly. Even if someone actually said the things you're attributing to them: therefore what? You're talking about a bunch of people who paid to see this movie; lots of people in this thread have seen it twice. Is there a single person here you expect is going to convert this double standard or misogyny you perceive into them not seeing the next one? What is the risk? The damage?

Even IF your most uncharitable, cynical view was accurate: so what?

 

[heliosRAzi]

Look man. I'm not saying you HAVE to buy the premise of some faith based force property or magic or whatever the hell. I'm saying the defense of the situations being played on screen aren't stretches if you DO buy the premise to begin with.

But that disbelief must be suspended. Rey attuning herself to the force so fast broke people's disbelief. We didn't see her struggle with it outside of those first few tries with that Stormtrooper. Some of us like to see the characters grow and learn over the course of the movie. Neo didn't become the One immediately after Morpheus told him the truth. We saw him grow and get better. We saw his doubts in his abilities. Same with Luke. He wasn't instantly in tune with it. We saw him fail, we saw him grow, we saw him doubt. Admittedly, we see Rey do that, but, for me, it happened way too fast.

Tune, not time. My autocorrect got me.


And my observation is that she's always been using it... Just not really knowing that she was.

I didn't get that feeling. I've only seen the movie once so far, though, so maybe next time, I'll be on the lookout for it. Even if that's true, it just screams Midichlorian Jesus to me.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Not really, the star killer base was getting destroyed so it makes sense.

The perfect chasm that precisely splits the fight is what I'm talking about. My point is that someone using the force to overcome the odds is in no way unexpected in a Star Wars movie.

Maybe it's the English Major in me, but I hate it when people misuse technical terms in the process of accusing a writer of being lazy.

 

[Principate]

That's not really what A Deus Ex Machina is. If there is one in this film, it's the earthquake that ends the fight.

Tell me when a trained martial arts expert (doesn't have to be a master just years of experience) fights a novice what do you expect to happen. Why did that not happen in this case. Because a convient set of circumstances occurred as well as straight up "overpowered magic"

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

The perfect chasm that precisely splits the fight is what I'm talking about. My point is that someone using the force to overcome the odds is in no way unexpected in a Star Wars movie.

Maybe it's the English Major in me, but I hate it when people misuse technical terms in the process of accusing a writer of being lazy.

It isn't using the force to even odds that bothers me. It is that some fans use "the force did it" to explain away a lot of things.