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[Terrible_Majesty]

I think the nature of the Force is being confused with the inherent talents of Luke/Rey.

One of the biggest obstacles preventing Luke from reaching his full potential or letting the Force flow through him more fully was his disbelief. See the Yoda raising the X-Wing scene.

Rey on the other hand gives off the vibe that she is familiar with the lore, the mythos and that in her case, she is dying for the Force to be real. She embraces the existence of the Force and allows it to flow through her. It carries out its will - and is only limited by the amount of trust that the person who the Forces uses has for it.

The greater the belief of the Force-sensitive = the greater the power and ability.

Time and training is not as much of a factor as belief and allowing the Force to take control.

Secondly, Rey seems more mature than Luke in terms of anger. She passed the test where she could have killed Ren.

Thirdly, Rey seems to have more control of the Force than Luke. I feel this is tied into the anger issue. Rey has more control over her anger and consequently, has more control over the Force. The amount of control she has is proportionate to the amount she allows the Force to control her instead of her own fears, anger, and such.

Dark side-wise, I have little to say.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I find it interesting that people aren't really debating whether or not Rey is a good character on her own, but rather if Rey is a good character by Star War standards.

In an action movie series like this, I think that makes sense. I mean, you can debate the character and her story arc all you'd like (though that's probably best left till after this trilogy wraps since we know so little at this point), but since so many of the "Mary Sue" questions revolve around her powers and abilities, I think it's important to compare her to others in the same universe to see how well she fits.

It'd be like Spider-Man showing up in a remake of Casablanca. He could be portrayed by Daniel Day-Lewis and have an amazing arc, but it's all for nothing if he doesn't fit in that universe.

 

[MogCakes]

Here's my personal problem with Rey and really everyone in the movie (and the movie itself) sans Poe and Finn. The whole damn thing came off to me as essentially the directors shoving the Star Wars commercial branding in the audience's face, completely shattering the 4th wall. If I were to put the feeling into detail it would be in all caps, like so.

"LOOK! LOOK! SEE THIS GIRL? SHE HAS FORCE POWERS -AND- HAS SEEMINGLY WATCHED THE OT OOOOOOOOOOOOOH AND HERE'S THIS MASKED DUDE JUST LIKE DARTH VADER OOOOOOOH! AND WE KNOW YOU KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT THIS GUY IS JUST AN EXPY OF DARTH VADER SO WE'RE GONNA HAM IT AND MAKE HIM AN OFFICIAL IN-LORE FANBOY WHO CLEARLY KEEPS ACTION FIGURES OF DARTH VADER IN A GLASS CABINET IN HIS ROOM AT SNOKE'S HOUSE OOOOOHHH!!!"

It's overtly self-referential, which to me is off-putting. Poe gets a pass because Wedge was barely a character, and Finn has no precedent in earlier movies IIRC. These two don't come across as avid SW fanboys having stepped in from our reality. Except for the scene where Finn says to Han in the most hammy way, 'so you're the Han solo from the war' (not the exact wording). For the most part however, Finn and Poe are the two I'd say are the most believable in that they appear to fully inhabit the movie's world with little to no disruptions of suspension of disbelief. As an audience member, I know full well the history that happened before Rey's time in full detail, whereas she has at best heard myths and rumors. And yet, as she demonstrates by initiating JMT with no overt cues or explanation, she appears to be as familiar and intimate with the preceding lore as the audience. This is enough to break my suspension of disbelief. As the same with Ren and his obsession with Darth Vader. His case, at least, can be explained by Snoke reading him sweet bedtime stories of the deeds of his socially retarded grandpa. And maybe witnessing a few drunken arguments between his parents.

To her credit, Rey only really begins to demonstrate this after her mind-read confrontation with Kylo. You could try to handwave it by saying she figured out how to do it by reading his mind or having heard legends of the trick, but from a storytelling perspective, her attempting JMT at all came completely out of left field. Having to handwave it at all should raise an eyebrow, no? It's a fair criticism. For me, it was at this point, in addition to her incredible knowledge of the Falcon beyond even Han Solo himself (yes, it's implied heavily that she's worked on the Falcon for that junker before, and likely for a while, but knowledge surpassing Solo's to the point she knows more about the ship and its workings than him despite having never turned on the thing before the escape? Bullshit), that my suspension of disbelief broke and I rolled my eyes.


--------------------
Chewie was fine too actually. But then Chewie has always been the best side character.

And just in case someone tries to nail me for harping on TFA: I enjoyed it. I loved it, even. But the pandering is so damn obvious. That is why Rey is seemingly overpowered. It isn't that she's stronger than Luke or more accomplished, it's that she appears to have prior knowledge and understanding of the lore because JJ Abrams and his team couldn't write the scenes well enough to accomplish her feats without pulling the "LOOK SHE'S USING JEDI MIND TRICK! *WINK WINK*" or "LOOK SHE KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT THE FALCON DESPITE HAVING NEVER TURNED IT ON IN HER LIFE" cards. If you omit her actions in these few scenes, her character is much more believable as an inhabitant within the universe the movie is trying to portray (IMO).

As an addendum, the orange old lady not-Yoda is a terrible plot driver and I hope she is given some agency beyond being orange not-Yoda.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

- Kenobi said "Strike me down and I become more powerful than you will ever imagine", so he was not just a ghost whisper.

- What is the force mastery level required in this bomb shot feat? Was there material or energy manipulation? Nope just CoD aim-assist.

- Was it personal proficiency like Rey's piloting, fighting or mechanical? Nope.

- Would the same power help him in other aspects like avoiding Vader? Nope, Han bailed him out.

- Yes he did say that. Then he became a voice in Luke's head. Unless you're implying he helped steer those torpedoes. If that's the case, Luke was an unnecessary passenger for the almighty Obi ghost.

- We don't know the level of mastery it takes to pull off impossible shots on the first try while flying a broken ship for the first time and avoiding laser fire. Judging by ANH, it takes literally zero mastery. Which is why complaining about Rey's abilities makes no sense.

- I don't know what point you're making here. It's late

- We don't know for sure if it would've helped Luke. I mean, he was doing a damn good job avoiding Vader until the end, especially considering he had a busted ship and R2 was fried. But yeah, Han saved him. Because Star Wars is all about coincidence and people doing the impossible because the story needs them to. Just like it did with Rey.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Does it? If Rey is just a good character by Star Wars standards then she's safe to be honest. She's a totally normal Star Wars character.

I don't think she's really worth this much debate to be honest.

Yes, when talking about Star Wars frankly the only thing that matters is Star Wars,

 

[RockTurtle]

Yes, when talking about Star Wars frankly the only thing that matters is Star Wars,

but what about my sister in law, for whom this was her first SW film? for someone without the background established..

 

[excelsiorlef]

but what about my sister in law, for whom this was her first SW film? for someone without the background established..

It's the 7th movie in the series.

And what's that have to do with the conversation we're having here.

 

[Hellwarden]

Yes, when talking about Star Wars frankly the only thing that matters is Star Wars,

I don't think that's true at all. I think that's a weak sauce attempt to stop people from criticizing Star Wars.

If I say that I think Rey and Poe are generic nothing characters in comparison to other characters from other action movies, then yeah, that's totally fine.

If you disagree with that, that's your opinion. But we're getting off-topic.

 

[Slavik81]

I'm not a fan of the term Mary Sue. I could never really understand what it meant.

Ultimately, I do think they handled some aspects of the film poorly. We can talk about how the details of what's justified or not all night long, but at the end of the day, the film makers failed to communicate things well enough to prevent these things from being distracting. That's simply bad storytelling.

Some things were really well handled. Giving Rey a background as a scavenger of Imperial wrecks justified a lot of mechanical knowledge. Kylo Ron's injuries and desire to take Rey alive definitely helped justify an untrained Jedi holding her own against a trained killer.

But the plot was quite rushed in other places and the justifications for other things were less clear. Why was some random terrible stormtrooper like Finn known personally by one of the top-ranking officers on the entire planet? Is mind-control just such a simple trick that any Jedi could do it within a minute of trying? What the heck were those planets that they blew up? Why was there no build up to or reflection on the significance of an entire system being destroyed? Since when can you travel through hyperspace near a planet?

It's a good movie, but I was distracted by questions on a regular basis while watching it the first time through.

 

[SystemBug]

Then Kylo would have known about her and not acted surprised after founding out that she could use the force.

didn't the purge happen when she was really young? she might have also possibly be given a new name/identity to conceal her whereabouts

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't think that's true at all. I think that's a weak sauce attempt to stop people from criticizing Star Wars.

If I say that I think Rey and Poe are generic nothing characters in comparison to other characters from other action movies, then yeah, that's totally fine.

If you disagree with that, that's your opinion. But we're getting off-topic.

But frankly that's not relevant because we are talking about Rey within the context of the series, mostly everyone talking her is a fan of the series.

 

[Renekton]

- Yes he did say that. Then he became a voice in Luke's head. Unless you're implying he helped steer those torpedoes. If that's the case, Luke was an unnecessary passenger for the almighty Obi ghost.

Probably attunement and other spiritual stuff. Definitely not material manipulation (torpedo steering) but also not only confined to Skype.

- We don't know the level of mastery it takes to pull off impossible shots on the first try while flying a broken ship for the first time and avoiding laser fire. Judging by ANH, it takes literally zero mastery. Which is why complaining about Rey's abilities makes no sense.

The ship was not broken per se, it had some broken modules specific to aiming the proton torpedo. Rey's millennium falcon was far more "broken". Luke didn't avoid laser fire by himself, he had the amazing Wedge and Han to take heat off him.

Zero mastery. So yes I agree that is around the force skill level that confers aim assist. If a jedi academy student was put in the same situation with Kenobi guidance, the result could be within variance.

 

[PeskyToaster]

I'm not a fan of the term Mary Sue. I could never really understand what it meant.

Ultimately, I do think they handled some aspects of the film poorly. We can talk about how the details of what's justified or not all night long, but at the end of the day, the film makers failed to communicate things well enough to prevent these things from being distracting. That's simply bad storytelling.

Some things were really well handled. Giving Rey a background as a scavenger of Imperial wrecks justified a lot of mechanical knowledge. Kylo Ron's injuries and desire to take Rey alive definitely helped justify an untrained Jedi holding her own against a trained killer.

But the plot was quite rushed in other places and the justifications for other things were less clear. Why was some random terrible stormtrooper like Finn known personally by one of the top-ranking officers on the entire planet? Is mind-control just such a simple trick that any Jedi could do it within a minute of trying? What the heck were those planets that they blew up? Why was there no build up to or reflection on the significance of an entire system being destroyed? Since when can you travel through hyperspace near a planet?

It's a good movie, but I was distracted by questions on a regular basis while watching it the first time through.

They might not have done it as well as the OT but I feel as though they are trying to drop you into the universe. You don't necessarily know what's happened in the 30 years since Jedi or exactly the reason for everything but that's kind of the fun. There's a whole universe to explore and learn about beyond what can fit in a 2 hour film. Star Wars has always been like that and it was a major complaint against the prequels. That they explained everything away. Everything got an origin story and screen time when it wasn't necessary because the mystery was more fun. I don't think it's a failure but sort of refreshing.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I find it interesting that people aren't really debating whether or not Rey is a good character on her own, but rather if Rey is a good character by Star War standards.

Context matters. What constitutes a good character in one story can be wildly different from another. Put Leopold Bloom in Die Hard or Holden Caulfield in Lord of the Rings and they aren't necessarily good characters anymore.

Essentially, nobody is a good character on their own.

I don't think that's true at all. I think that's a weak sauce attempt to stop people from criticizing Star Wars.

If I say that I think Rey and Poe are generic nothing characters in comparison to other characters from other action movies, then yeah, that's totally fine.

If you disagree with that, that's your opinion. But we're getting off-topic.

For you basic gut opinion, you don't need to place them in a larger context. If you don't like them, you don't like them, but to dig deeper you, you need to at least look at the characters through the lense of the fantasy and mythological archetypes that they come from.

 

[Schryver]

Wait, you actually read the Twilight books? jk great post OP. I read almost all of it and can't wait to pay close attention to everything when I see it a second/third time.

 

[Violet_0]

As for Rey, Rey is the best thing to hit Star Wars mythology since Yoda. Period. Even if one can't get over the flaws of TFA, Rey as a character (and Ridley as an actor) were truly great finds by Abrams and the producers.

sort of funny (and maybe even true) since the character is also paper thin

 

[Spikematic]

The Mary Sue term is completely moronic to begin with. To me personally it reads like a term designed to try and bring down a strong female character who doesn't have many apparent flaws. Why is it so hard to believe that a girl can excel at many things, especially when she's the protagonist of a fantasy space story? I loved her character and can't wait to see her kick more ass in the next movies!

 

[C4Lukins]

I do not even get why the Mary Sue concept could be a negative.

She is the strongest character in the film. She was already a strong character at the beginning of the film. She was captured, and all the guys came to save her, and she not only escaped but also saved a couple of folks along the way.

I am not sure what people are looking for.

A female kicking ass and being the hero of the film is somehow a negative? Some of you folk are just ridiculous.

 

[B-Dubs]

The Mary Sue term is completely moronic to begin with. To me personally it reads like a term designed to try and bring down a strong female character who doesn't have many apparent flaws. Why is it so hard to believe that a girl can excel at many things, especially when she's the protagonist of a fantasy space story? I loved her character and can't wait to see her kick more ass in the next movies!

You do realize that there is a male equivalent to it right?


Not that I agree with the people who do think she is one though, I'm just pointing out that it's not something that's only applied to women.

 

[SixMachine]

I do not even get why the Mary Sue concept could be a negative.

She is the strongest character in the film. She was already a strong character at the beginning of the film. She was captured, and all the guys came to save her, and she not only escaped but also saved a couple of folks along the way.

I am not sure what people are looking for.

A female kicking ass and being the hero of the film is somehow a negative? Some of you folk are just ridiculous.

Mary Sue and Gary Stu are not always negative, it just all depends on execution. For example in OT you can see a freaking One Punch Man thread and lots of people love it, the anime/webcomic/manga basically is about a guy who kills things in one punch, and he's intentionally OP. Batman is a big Gary Stu with the shit he pulls out of his butt, and people love that preptime. Mary Sues exist in a lot of anime and manga as waifu bait, like in Witch Craft Works, where the main girl is the best ever, perfect student, and devoted girlfriend type and people eat that up. Of course when executed poorly and making it seem like it doesn't fit, people are going to call it out, like in Sword Arts Online, where the main character is a stand in for the author because something about how he wished he was good at videogames so he created him to be godlike in the MMO and pulls things from his butt because fuck logic or any reasoning.

I think people are going too hard in the sexism bit, it really doesn't seem people have any malicious intent, people like to point out ant criticize things that stick out. Do I think Rey is a Mary Sue? No, not really even though she has many aspects of a power fantasy to her, but that is no different from the other MCs of the Star Wars universe. But I can see why someone can try to categorize her as one.

 

[Boss Doggie]

The Mary Sue term is completely moronic to begin with. To me personally it reads like a term designed to try and bring down a strong female character who doesn't have many apparent flaws. Why is it so hard to believe that a girl can excel at many things, especially when she's the protagonist of a fantasy space story? I loved her character and can't wait to see her kick more ass in the next movies!

You do realize Mary Sue isn't a sexist term right? In fact it is pointed out a lot to males too. I wonder if you heard of anti-shurtugal, that site used to exist and has a really great write-up on sues, and how it's not gender-specific.

 

[C4Lukins]

Mary Sue and Gary Stu are not always negative, it just all depends on execution. For example in OT you can see a freaking One Punch Man thread and lots of people love it, the anime/webcomic/manga basically is about a guy who kills things in one punch, and he's intentionally OP. Batman is a big Gary Stu with the shit he pulls out of his butt, and people love that preptime. Mary Sues exist in a lot of anime and manga as waifu bait, like in Witch Craft Works, where the main girl is the best ever, perfect student, and devoted girlfriend type and people eat that up. Of course when executed poorly and making it seem like it doesn't fit, people are going to call it out, like in Sword Arts Online, where the main character is a stand in for the author because something about how he wished he was good at videogames so he created him to be godlike in the MMO and pulls things from his butt because fuck logic or any reasoning.

I think people are going to hard in the sexism bit, it really doesn't seem people have any malicious intent, people like to point out ant criticize things that stick out. Do I think Rey is a Mary Sue? No, not really even though she has many aspects of a power fantasy to her, but that is no different from the other MCs of the Star Wars universe. But I can see why someone can try to categorize her as one.

This all just sounds crazy to me.

She is the strongest character in the film, and the movie does enough to earn that status not only for the character, but also because the actress does an excellent job of selling it.

She is a powerful female, who kicks tons of ass.

She gets captured, but saves herself in the end.

She is a conflicted character who runs away in a moment where she fears the weird ass visions she is seeing, but she gets it together and not only saves herself but saves her friend.

I just do not get what people are bitching about.

 

[deathkiller]

I do not even get why the Mary Sue concept could be a negative.

She is the strongest character in the film. She was already a strong character at the beginning of the film. She was captured, and all the guys came to save her, and she not only escaped but also saved a couple of folks along the way.

I am not sure what people are looking for.

A female kicking ass and being the hero of the film is somehow a negative? Some of you folk are just ridiculous.

The Mary Sue concept originates of a very specific case:
- Is fanfiction work
- A new young character is introduced
- The new character is better than multiple stabilised characters in their respective expertise (though being young is not supposed to have the same level of experience as them).
- Everyone (not evil) likes the character who seems to not have significant flaws
- Due to the previous points it is argued that the character is a self insert of the author and wish fulfilment.

Since TFA is not fanfiction nor Rey can be considered self-insert that automatically means that she is not a Mary Sue so the only discussion can be about she having some of the traits but not all. The biggest problem with the concept of Mary Sue is that it has caused fear in female writers about creating competent female characters in their works of fiction due to backlash.

As I said before my only single problem with the movie is that it makes Rey impressive feats look "mundane" but I might be too used to Anime reaction shots where you always get characters getting impressed all the time one of the most known examples is the "power level over 9000" reaction from Vegeta in Dragon Ball.

 

[SixMachine]

This all just sounds crazy to me.

She is a powerful female, who kicks tons of ass.

She gets captured, but saves herself in the end.

She is a conflicted character who runs away in a moment where she fears the weird ass visions she is seeing, but she gets it together and not only saves herself but saves her friend.

I just do not get what people are bitching about.

Are you saying my post is crazy? I'm just explaining how it's used. Personally I don't have a problem with Rey. Sure I do think some things used are weird like the mind trick she learned in a jiffy to escape and the shonen style power up (basically it's a situation where someone is getting beat, then after a brief period of meditating or clarity, they come back stronger than ever and ignore any fatigue or injury. It's the kind of stuff you see in a lot of shonens) to win at the end are contrived, I don't try to think too much of it, because I think it's the way for the writers to have an out to resolve the situation. Since having the alternative of her getting saved has been done to death in a lot of movies, they decided to do it differently, which is fine in the end I think, even if it can be nitpicked.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

A "strong hero character" without any flaws (or overly mild flaws that are kind of endearing really, such as naïveté, ignorance, initial clumsiness, etc.) can potentially be really boring. I prefer female characters to be real people with real flaws and strengths.

...In Star Wars, though? It's a fantasy adventure space opera, heavily marketed to children, featuring consistently OP people with OP abilities. Complaining about the heroine being a "Mary Sue" or "not flawed enough" in Star Wars is just idiotic. The quality of Star Wars characterization, especially for the heroic ones, isn't through making them flawed and grey and stuff like in Game of Thrones, but in making them fun, relatable, and charming.

Sure it'd be boring if the heroes never struggled and never faced real adversity and just instantly succeeded at everything. But they don't, none of them, including Rey. So yeah... stupid criticism is stupid.

 

[C4Lukins]

Are you saying my post is crazy? I'm just explaining how it's used. Personally I don't have a problem with Rey. Sure I do think some things used are weird like the mind trick she learned in a jiffy to escape and the shonen style power up to win at the end are contrived, I don't try to think too much of it, because I think it's the way for the writers to have an out to resolve the situation. Since having the alternative of her getting saved has been done to death in a lot of movies, they decided to do it differently, which is fine in the end I think, even if it can be nitpicked.

No my response was not directed at you specifically. My apologies if it appeared that way. I was just responding to your comment while trying to make a broader statement responding to the last 500 posts or so. I only quoted you because it was an intelligent and logical post.

 

[flatearthpandas]

Rey is a genius prodigy. More of a myth or propaganda than a real character. An L Ron Hubbard, if you will. About up there in obnoxiousness as a Mary Sue, but a typical Mary Sue is more just a latent prodigy imo. Hard to self insert into a genius if you aren't actually a genius. But you could always have some incredible latent abilities just waiting to be discovered or awakened!

To comment on the OP, I disagree with the black hole characterization. That's a natural consequence of most adventure stories. If the story is following a central character, the supporting cast will be the ones affected by that character or linked to him/her. Otherwise, they likely aren't on the adventure. Naturally there are tons of ways to link people together, but this is how it works often and I don't think it affects the concept of the Mary Sue, which I've always considered a self-insert ego fantasy character. This "black hole" effect is one consequence of the self-insert.

 

[Boss Doggie]

The Mary Sue concept originates of a very specific case:
- Is fanfiction work
- A new young character is introduced
- The new character is better than multiple stabilised characters in their respective expertise (though being young is not supposed to have the same level of experience as them).
- Everyone (not evil) likes the character who seems to not have significant flaws
- Due to the previous points it is argued that the character is a self insert of the author and wish fulfilment.

Since TFA is not fanfiction nor Rey can be considered self-insert that automatically means that she is not a Mary Sue so the only discussion can be about she having some of the traits but not all. The biggest problem with the concept of Mary Sue is that it has caused fear in female writers about creating competent female characters in their works of fiction due to backlash.

As I said before my only single problem with the movie is that it makes Rey impressive feats look "mundane" but I might be too used to Anime reaction shots where you always get characters getting impressed all the time one of the most known examples is the "power level over 9000" reaction from Vegeta in Dragon Ball.

A mary sue can still exist in non-fanfiction works, e.g. author self-insert. Though again, a self-insert author is neither good or bad. See also The Inheritance Cycle.

And what, I've seen more male writers writing sues. Again usually due to lack of experience in writing or lack of editor.

 

[Adaren]

Here's my personal problem with Rey and really everyone in the movie (and the movie itself) sans Poe and Finn. The whole damn thing came off to me as essentially the directors shoving the Star Wars commercial branding in the audience's face, completely shattering the 4th wall. If I were to put the feeling into detail it would be in all caps, like so.

"LOOK! LOOK! SEE THIS GIRL? SHE HAS FORCE POWERS -AND- HAS SEEMINGLY WATCHED THE OT OOOOOOOOOOOOOH AND HERE'S THIS MASKED DUDE JUST LIKE DARTH VADER OOOOOOOH! AND WE KNOW YOU KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT THIS GUY IS JUST AN EXPY OF DARTH VADER SO WE'RE GONNA HAM IT AND MAKE HIM AN OFFICIAL IN-LORE FANBOY WHO CLEARLY KEEPS ACTION FIGURES OF DARTH VADER IN A GLASS CABINET IN HIS ROOM AT SNOKE'S HOUSE OOOOOHHH!!!"

This is my complaint with the movie as well. Everyone time someone referenced the "legendary" Luke Skywalker / Han Solo / Millennium Falcon / Darth Vader, it totally broke any immersion I had in the movie. It reminded me a lot of Korra (I haven't watched a ton of Korra), in that everyone and their dog seems to either be a direct analogue to a character from the first series or the kid/grandkid of a character from the first series. It isn't original, so it isn't believable, so it isn't immersive.

Her JMT and her Millennium Falcon knowledge were also eye-roll-inducing. Hopefully that's explained in the sequels in some way (Rey is a Force reincarnation of someone or something-rather).

But then again I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, and I found the movie entertaining enough, so whatever.

 

[CassSept]

Oh yeah they were only instrumental in the collapse of the Empire, why would anyone remember Han or Luke.

What.

 

[deathkiller]

Oh yeah they were only instrumental in the collapse of the Empire, why would anyone remember Han or Luke.

What.

Well if they wanted they could had just said that the rebels didn't want to make public their key members. In particular for Han it was bad for his job to be considered a hero.

 

[Pusherman]

I don’t really know too much about Mary Sue’s and stuff but I do think Rey feels very fan-fictiony. I mean, she is an orphan on a desert planet (just like Luke!), she is so pretty Finn is immediately enamoured with her, she is a great pilot, Han Solo really likes her and offers her a job after just meeting her, she is destined to be a great Jedi and she defeats a trained one in both the force and lightsaber duelling right after learning she kinda has the Force. It’s not that all of those things are bad but taken together they do make her seem like the self-insert in a piece of fan-fiction. Just to be clear despite being a pretty big Star Wars fan, I personally couldn’t give two shits about the internal consistency of the Star Wars universe so it’s not even like I’m saying she shouldn’t be this powerful or whatever. I just think what they do with her character weakens the movie a little, though the movie sure as hell wasn’t strong outside of her to begin with. Just look at the scene where she gets out of her restraints. It’s like Rey had seen A New Hope and upon learning she has force powers wanted to try out what Obi did to those storm troopers. It came off so stupid. How did she even know that was one of the things Jedi can do? Luke’s big victory at the end of Hope is using the force to shoot real accurate. Rey’s big victory is realizing she has the force and then using said force to beat the fuck out of the big bad enemy Jedi. Where can they possibly take her character next?

 

[heliosRAzi]

I dont think it has anything to do with being a Mary Sue or OP and more to do with effective storytelling. We can be damned sure that if this were a 10 hour movie, this would be better explained and developed.

This is what it comes down to for me. They loaded all of it into the end, so, to me, it feels cheap and unearned. If Neo's development with the Code was mostly in the third act, it wouldn't have been nearly as good. In TFA, she gets a taste of it when she touches the lightsaber halfway in the second act. Then she does the JMT and pull in the third. If she was taught by Kylo, which I don't believe, but whatever, that was also in the third act. Her development with the Force is all rushed.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I would argue that there're far more valid reasons to be "overly enamored" with Rey, the first female lead in a Star Wars movie, than overly critical.

Is one of them being the first female lead?

Would Darth Maul be a better villain if he were a she instead?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Is one of them being the first female lead?

Would Darth Maul be a better villain if he were a she instead?

Being a well done female lead and being the first female lead does make Rey very interesting especially in a mostly male dominated series. On multiple viewings she's a great role model for kids.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This whole debate has turned into a game of Whack-A-Mole. Naysayers complain about something Rey did, it’s explained how her abilities are consistent with other Star Wars movies, and a new complaint is brought up.

“Rey never should have been able to pilot the Falcon as well as she did! She’s never flown it before!”

True, she said she’d never flown the Falcon, but it was heavily implied she had been on the ship before, and had possibly even been repairing it. She knew about the compressor that had been placed on the hyperdrive and she knew exactly where the switches and gauges were to fly the thing. On top of that, her first words to Finn once they got on the ship were “Gunner position’s down there!” The fact she knew exactly where they’d both need to be in order to make a hasty retreat proves she had some familiarity with the ship.

Plus, she said she was a pilot. We simply don’t have enough information to know how good she was, but we know she could fly.

“So a ship she’s never flown, she’s suddenly able to fly with expert skill? Bullshit. She's never even been off-planet as far as we know.”

That’s consistent with other Star Wars heroes. In fact, Rey’s first flight is the most realistic of the three main heroes in the saga.

Here’s her first takeoff:

And here’s Luke’s first takeoff in an X-Wing, a ship he had never piloted before:

And Anakin's first time piloting a ship he’d never even fucking seen before?

And he'd never been off-planet or flown anything other than a racing hovercraft before.

”But Luke called himself a great pilot and we know he wasn't just talking shit because reasons. And the prequels don’t count because it fucks with my narrative. But anyway, onto the next thing.

"Rey shouldn't have been able to defeat Kylo Ren so easily. He's far more advanced in the use of the Force than she is!"

Well, besides the fact that we see she's pretty damn connected to the Force too (when Ren tries to penetrate her mind and she actually blocks him and even gets into his mind a bit), and we know she's a great fighter after fighting on Jakku, it's not like fighting Ren was a cakewalk for her. For the majority of the fight, she was running from him, swinging with both arms to block his attacks as he casually blocked and parried using one hand.

So in this fight, you have a man who had just been shot in the kidney:

Who was bleeding from that wound:

And whose planet-sized spaceship was on the verge of blowing up (I'm not adding a gif of that because you can't not remember that happening), beating his opponent pretty handily until he mentions the Force. The moment he does, it awakens a memory in Rey and she goes all zen-like for a moment. Once she opens her eyes, she's ready to kick ass:

"But that's the problem! How'd she know to let the Force guide her like that??"

Maz Kanata clued her in. After Rey's vision in the basement of Maz's bar, Maz says to her, "I'm no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you."

And what amazing words of wisdom did Obi Wan have for Luke that caused him to go from this:

To this:

Well, at first he said, "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us; it penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." Not much help there. Doesn't actually teach anyone how to use it.

Later, as Luke is being shot by the laser ball, Obi says, "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."

Luke asks if controls your actions. Obi says "Partially, but it also obeys your commands."

Then he puts the blast shielded helmet on Luke and says "This time, let go your conscious self, and act on instinct. Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings."

Just the same mystical mumbo jumbo Maz gives Rey. But when Luke learns how to use the Force after that tiny bit of horseshit, there's no issue. When Rey taps into the Force after the horseshit she was fed, it's bad storytelling.

So anyway, during the battle with Ren, as soon as he mentions the Force, Rey says "the Force?," then closes her eyes and lets it guide her into kicking the wounded man's ass. The wounded man who hasn't even completed his training yet. This really isn't that unbelievable.

"Yes it is! His training is still superior to hers! There's no reason someone who has displayed mastery over saber-fighting should lose to someone who hasn't been training or fighting as long!"

"Doesn't count. Obi Wan gave himself up."

Because he knew he was bested.

"Your mom was bested. He gave himself up because he wanted to be a ghost and help Luke. So the point stands. You never see a superior fighter lose to a noob until Rey comes along."

And this was after Maul had demonstrated his superior skills by not only holding his own against a Jedi and his Padawan, but also after killing Obi's own master, thereby removing any doubt about his skill with a lightsaber. Hell, Maul didn't even have the excuse that he was wounded or stressed or anything else. He was in peak form and lost like a bitch to a Padawan. And he even had the high ground!

"Not to rapidly change the subject, but what was up with Rey snatching the lightsaber with the Force like that? How would she even know that the Force lets people move shit with their mind?"

Ren showed her earlier:

"Okay, so she knows the power exists. But how does she know she has that power?"

We talked about this. Maz clued Rey in to the idea that she's connected to the Force after her vision. And Rey successfully tested that connection by doing the Jedi Mind Trick earlier (which took a few tries...she's not a pro yet; just obviously very connected to the Force).

"Ah ha! 'Not a pro'! A Force noob shouldn't be able to use the Force to pull a lightsaber to themselves! That's an advanced skill that takes a lot of training to be able to--"

This is pre-Yoda, when the only training Luke has had was Obi whispering a few sweet nothings in his ear. Also, Luke was wounded and groggy, yet was able to pull it off. In TFA, it's Kylo Ren who is wounded and groggy, so Rey is able to use the Force to pull the saber to herself.

"Yeah, but that also doesn't fit my narrative. So you lose."

------------------------------

I apologize for the size of this post, but I feel like maybe having some visual aids will help with the explanations. If you quote this, please delete the gifs, so pages become totally unreadable (hopefully it's not too terrible with just the one set of gifs from this post).

Quoting for new page because this seriously needs to be reiterated and not ignored like the OP.

 

[deathkiller]

Quoting for new page because this seriously needs to be reiterated and not ignored like the OP.

Do we really need that collection of strawmans?

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Do we really need that collection of strawmans?

Things that have literally been discussed a dozen times in this thread alone are now "strawmans"?

Amazing.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Being a well done female lead and being the first female lead does make Rey very interesting especially in a mostly male dominated series. On multiple viewings she's a great role model for kids.

like superman?

 

[Gr1mLock]

Where yawl getting these gifs from doe?

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Where yawl getting these gifs from doe?

<_<

Christmas miracle.

 

[deathkiller]

Things that have literally been discussed a dozen times in this thread alone are now "strawmans"?

Amazing.

The post distorts the arguments made by others so they are easier to counter and fails to mention anything that could weaken the counter.

The thing is that there is no objective truth here and most people argue because they like to argue. There is no win condition where this discussion will end with the victory of one side. Circular arguments are normal.

 

[Won]

Gifs win all internet arguments. It is known.


All I really got out of the last few pages is some new appreciation for A New Hope. Such good flick.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

The post distorts the arguments made by others so they are easier to counter and fails to mention anything that could weaken the counter.

The thing is that there is no objective truth here and most people argue because they like to argue. There is no win condition where this discussion will end with the victory of one side. Circular arguments are normal.

How did I distort the arguments? They're almost exact quotes of some posts here. And it wasn't meant as an exhaustive list that counters every argument and every counter argument. As I said, it was meant to counter some of the most popular arguments by showing that Rey's powers and abilities are easily explained and very much par for the course in Star Wars movies.

But whatever fits your narrative, I guess.

 

[Zabka]

This is my complaint with the movie as well. Everyone time someone referenced the "legendary" Luke Skywalker / Han Solo / Millennium Falcon / Darth Vader, it totally broke any immersion I had in the movie. It reminded me a lot of Korra (I haven't watched a ton of Korra), in that everyone and their dog seems to either be a direct analogue to a character from the first series or the kid/grandkid of a character from the first series. It isn't original, so it isn't believable, so it isn't immersive.

Her JMT and her Millennium Falcon knowledge were also eye-roll-inducing. Hopefully that's explained in the sequels in some way (Rey is a Force reincarnation of someone or something-rather).

But then again I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, and I found the movie entertaining enough, so whatever.

I don't understand this argument at all. Luke, Han and Leia are the heroes of the Rebellion. They're like the George Washington, John Adams and Benjamin Franklin of their time.

 

[Sesuadra]

This whole debate has turned into a game of Whack-A-Mole. Naysayers complain about something Rey did, it’s explained how her abilities are consistent with other Star Wars movies, and a new complaint is brought up.

“Rey never should have been able to pilot the Falcon as well as she did! She’s never flown it before!”

True, she said she’d never flown the Falcon, but it was heavily implied she had been on the ship before, and had possibly even been repairing it. She knew about the compressor that had been placed on the hyperdrive and she knew exactly where the switches and gauges were to fly the thing. On top of that, her first words to Finn once they got on the ship were “Gunner position’s down there!” The fact she knew exactly where they’d both need to be in order to make a hasty retreat proves she had some familiarity with the ship.

Plus, she said she was a pilot. We simply don’t have enough information to know how good she was, but we know she could fly.

“So a ship she’s never flown, she’s suddenly able to fly with expert skill? Bullshit. She's never even been off-planet as far as we know.”

That’s consistent with other Star Wars heroes. In fact, Rey’s first flight is the most realistic of the three main heroes in the saga.

Here’s her first takeoff:

And here’s Luke’s first takeoff in an X-Wing, a ship he had never piloted before:

And Anakin's first time piloting a ship he’d never even fucking seen before?

And he'd never been off-planet or flown anything other than a racing hovercraft before.

”But Luke called himself a great pilot and we know he wasn't just talking shit because reasons. And the prequels don’t count because it fucks with my narrative. But anyway, onto the next thing.

"Rey shouldn't have been able to defeat Kylo Ren so easily. He's far more advanced in the use of the Force than she is!"

Well, besides the fact that we see she's pretty damn connected to the Force too (when Ren tries to penetrate her mind and she actually blocks him and even gets into his mind a bit), and we know she's a great fighter after fighting on Jakku, it's not like fighting Ren was a cakewalk for her. For the majority of the fight, she was running from him, swinging with both arms to block his attacks as he casually blocked and parried using one hand.

So in this fight, you have a man who had just been shot in the kidney:

Who was bleeding from that wound:

And whose planet-sized spaceship was on the verge of blowing up (I'm not adding a gif of that because you can't not remember that happening), beating his opponent pretty handily until he mentions the Force. The moment he does, it awakens a memory in Rey and she goes all zen-like for a moment. Once she opens her eyes, she's ready to kick ass:

"But that's the problem! How'd she know to let the Force guide her like that??"

Maz Kanata clued her in. After Rey's vision in the basement of Maz's bar, Maz says to her, "I'm no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you."

And what amazing words of wisdom did Obi Wan have for Luke that caused him to go from this:

To this:

Well, at first he said, "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us; it penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." Not much help there. Doesn't actually teach anyone how to use it.

Later, as Luke is being shot by the laser ball, Obi says, "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."

Luke asks if controls your actions. Obi says "Partially, but it also obeys your commands."

Then he puts the blast shielded helmet on Luke and says "This time, let go your conscious self, and act on instinct. Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings."

Just the same mystical mumbo jumbo Maz gives Rey. But when Luke learns how to use the Force after that tiny bit of horseshit, there's no issue. When Rey taps into the Force after the horseshit she was fed, it's bad storytelling.

So anyway, during the battle with Ren, as soon as he mentions the Force, Rey says "the Force?," then closes her eyes and lets it guide her into kicking the wounded man's ass. The wounded man who hasn't even completed his training yet. This really isn't that unbelievable.

"Yes it is! His training is still superior to hers! There's no reason someone who has displayed mastery over saber-fighting should lose to someone who hasn't been training or fighting as long!"

"Doesn't count. Obi Wan gave himself up."

Because he knew he was bested.

"Your mom was bested. He gave himself up because he wanted to be a ghost and help Luke. So the point stands. You never see a superior fighter lose to a noob until Rey comes along."

And this was after Maul had demonstrated his superior skills by not only holding his own against a Jedi and his Padawan, but also after killing Obi's own master, thereby removing any doubt about his skill with a lightsaber. Hell, Maul didn't even have the excuse that he was wounded or stressed or anything else. He was in peak form and lost like a bitch to a Padawan. And he even had the high ground!

"Not to rapidly change the subject, but what was up with Rey snatching the lightsaber with the Force like that? How would she even know that the Force lets people move shit with their mind?"

Ren showed her earlier:

"Okay, so she knows the power exists. But how does she know she has that power?"

We talked about this. Maz clued Rey in to the idea that she's connected to the Force after her vision. And Rey successfully tested that connection by doing the Jedi Mind Trick earlier (which took a few tries...she's not a pro yet; just obviously very connected to the Force).

"Ah ha! 'Not a pro'! A Force noob shouldn't be able to use the Force to pull a lightsaber to themselves! That's an advanced skill that takes a lot of training to be able to--"

This is pre-Yoda, when the only training Luke has had was Obi whispering a few sweet nothings in his ear. Also, Luke was wounded and groggy, yet was able to pull it off. In TFA, it's Kylo Ren who is wounded and groggy, so Rey is able to use the Force to pull the saber to herself.

"Yeah, but that also doesn't fit my narrative. So you lose."

------------------------------

I apologize for the size of this post, but I feel like maybe having some visual aids will help with the explanations. If you quote this, please delete the gifs, so pages become totally unreadable (hopefully it's not too terrible with just the one set of gifs from this post).

Nice and well done post! But a gif of the lightsaber pulling between Rey and Ren would have been awesome ! Love her look when it lands in her hand

 

[Renekton]

Quoting for new page because this seriously needs to be reiterated and not ignored like the OP.

Not because those were strong points imo, the structure of that GIF-spam post makes it hard to reply to.

 

[igordennis]

Do we really need that collection of strawmans?

Strawmans? I have seen all those arguments in this thread almost word for word (i bet some of them even word for word if you bother to look) countless times. Its why this thread is so long, because they are repeated ad nauseam even though the OP itself has counter arguments against all of these complaints and i have not seen one single person (and i read the entire thread) actually try to argue against the extensive points OP made.

 

[BOND CO STOOGE]

I think the nature of the Force is being confused with the inherent talents of Luke/Rey.

One of the biggest obstacles preventing Luke from reaching his full potential or letting the Force flow through him more fully was his disbelief. See the Yoda raising the X-Wing scene.

Rey on the other hand gives off the vibe that she is familiar with the lore, the mythos and that in her case, she is dying for the Force to be real. She embraces the existence of the Force and allows it to flow through her. It carries out its will - and is only limited by the amount of trust that the person who the Forces uses has for it.

The greater the belief of the Force-sensitive = the greater the power and ability.

Time and training is not as much of a factor as belief and allowing the Force to take control.

Secondly, Rey seems more mature than Luke in terms of anger. She passed the test where she could have killed Ren.

Thirdly, Rey seems to have more control of the Force than Luke. I feel this is tied into the anger issue. Rey has more control over her anger and consequently, has more control over the Force. The amount of control she has is proportionate to the amount she allows the Force to control her instead of her own fears, anger, and such.

Dark side-wise, I have little to say.

This is a very well reasoned post. I would like to have seen more training for Rey, but if I look at from your perspective then her abilities make more sense, and are grounded by the rules set in prior movies.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Nice and well done post! But a gif of the lightsaber pulling between Rey and Ren would have been awesome ! Love her look when it lands in her hand

Ah man, that was such an epic moment. One that I totally figured was going to happen but it still blew me away.