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[kinggroin]

But that disbelief must be suspended. Rey attuning herself to the force so fast broke people's disbelief. We didn't see her struggle with it outside of those first few tries with that Stormtrooper. Some of us like to see the characters grow and learn over the course of the movie. Neo didn't become the One immediately after Morpheus told him the truth. We saw him grow and get better. We saw his doubts in his abilities. Same with Luke. He wasn't instantly in tune with it. We saw him fail, we saw him grow, we saw him doubt. Admittedly, we see Rey do that, but, for me, it happened way too fast.




I didn't get that feeling. I've only seen the movie once so far, though, so maybe next time, I'll be on the lookout for it. Even if that's true, it just screams Midichlorian Jesus to me.

@bolded


I'd argue those people are vastly the minority. I had no problem with her accelerated use of it. The kids got talent...so to speak.


Anyway I'll bow out. I don't even like star wars that much to invest any further time into this. The whole thing is grounded in un-grounded nonsensical lore anyway.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

But that disbelief must be suspended. Rey attuning herself to the force so fast broke people's disbelief. We didn't see her struggle with it outside of those first few tries with that Stormtrooper. Some of us like to see the characters grow and learn over the course of the movie. Neo didn't become the One immediately after Morpheus told him the truth. We saw him grow and get better. We saw his doubts in his abilities. Same with Luke. He wasn't instantly in tune with it. We saw him fail, we saw him grow, we saw him doubt. Admittedly, we see Rey do that, but, for me, it happened way too fast.

This is exactly the issue. It's like Rey's entire becoming-the-hero arc had to be condensed/scrapped for the sake of time or something.

Even superhuman "chosen ones" in other fantasy tales tend to have to work a little more at earning their ability than she did.

 

[Principate]

Kylo Ren isn't a "fucking dark side user". He's angry most of all the time, he can't control his emotions like Vader did when he killed someone. He made mistakes (Kylo awake Rey powers!).

I'm agree with you that Kylo will be much more powerful than Darth Vader but at the whole plot of the movie was to show us the weakeness of Kylo.

There is a transformation for Kylo after he killed his father, he's much more crazy, darker than before. But he takes a shot by chewbacca and a snap by Finn. So i won't mind if Rey beat him using the Force.

The dark side of the force is strength through passion and hatred or did you blink and miss that part. Star Wars isn't exactly subtle fiction.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Luke didn't go one on one with Vader in the first movie. In fact he very clearly ran away. Even when he did clash with him the 2nd time he literally got his hand cut off.

However, Kylo ain't no Vader.

Again, because he was force sensitive Luke went from this

to this

in less than five minutes because he got an explanation of the force. Rey knows how the force works as well. He got his hand cut off because he was completely outclassed and thus gave into his fear of Vader to the point that he was shivering. Not to mention, unlike Ren, Vader didn't have a hole in his gut from a blaster shot and was completely calm while fighting Luke.

Kylo Ren had years of experience, to her he may as well have been.

Kylo Ten is a fucking dark side user they are always distressed they derive their powers from it.

The chance to breath was such a blatant plot device that it was insulting. Rey has never used a lightsaber before and that hand to hand combat experience was barely shown through the film.

Dark sides users are not always distressed. All of the most powerful dark side users are able to use it without being anywhere near as distressed as Ren was in that moment.


Kylo had strict orders to capture Rey and bring her to Snoke, it makes perfect sense in context that he didn't kill her when he had the advantage and instead tried to pull her to his side.

 

[Starsailor]

The dark side of the force is strength through passion and hatred or did you blink and miss that part. Star Wars isn't exactly subtle fiction.

well you know also that the dark side can consume and destroy the user.
Kylo almost made him killed because he wasn't smart enough to control his emotions like Vader (or like Darth Maul during a fight).

Yes Kylo is angry but his lightsaber show how he can be unleashed for others and himself

 

[BlastProcessing]

Tell me when a trained martial arts expert (doesn't have to be a master just years of experience) fights a novice what do you expect to happen. Why did that not happen in this case. Because a convient set of circumstances occurred as well as straight up "overpowered magic"

For one the trained martial arts expert has been ordered by his creepy master to take her in alive. He corners her, offers her training, watches her closer her eyes, "Is she considering? WTF is she doing?", and then she catches him completely off guard. They fight till the earth splits and stops them.

Let's compare this to the end of A New Hope, where a much larger series of circumstances keep Luke alive on his trench run. Luke only gets through because Vader gets chumped by a Space Trucker. Then Luke talks to a dead guy who tells him to use space wizard magic to save the day.

 

[Principate]

Again, because he was force sensitive Luke went from this

to this

in less than five minutes because he got an explanation of the force. Rey knows how the force works as well. He got his hand cut off because he was completely outclassed and thus gave into his fear of Vader to the point that he was shivering. Not to mention, unlike Ren, Vader didn't have a hole in his gut from a blaster shot and was completely calm while fighting Luke.


Dark sides users are not always distressed. All of the most powerful dark side users are able to use it without being anywhere near as distressed as Ren was in that moment.


Kylo had strict orders to capture Rey and bring her to Snoke, it makes perfect sense in context that he didn't kill her when he had the advantage and instead tried to pull her to his side.

They not always distressed but it's not a inherent hindrance against a complete novice in lightsaber training. Your argument is basically, Rey could beat someone like Anakin who was clearly crazy and insane despite Anakin straight up defeating dooku. Which is bill shot because being crazy and insane is not a hindrance unless you fighting someone trained and calm e.g obi wan

 

[Crossing Eden]

They not always distressed but it's not a inherent hindrance against a complete novice in lightsaber training. Your argument is basically, Rey could beat someone like Anakin who was clearly crazy and insane despite Anakin straight up defeating dooku. Which is bill shot because being crazy and insane is not a hindrance unless you fighting someone trained and calm e.g obi wan

Rey has had combat training on Jakku. Ren and Rey are both basically novices in lightsaber training when you consider the grand scheme of things. One just has more experience clearly but was heavily wounded and incredibly distressed, putting them on equal footing. My entire logic is that considering the context it should be no surprise whatsoever that Rey was able to beat Ren. And guess what, Rey was calm in that moment against someone who was
-wounded
-crazy
-reckless

I mean ffs he got stabbed in his dominant arm by Finn just moments before. The one time Anakin took a step back and used his brain was the only time he was able to beat Dooku compared to the multiple times he let Dooku get to him and attacked with reckless abandon.
Also again, why in the world do you keep ignoring the context as if Kylo wasn't wounded multiple times already before the fight? You're being willfully ignorant at this point by ignoring that.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I see, so it's not "eww female lead character what the hell man?!", it's "female lead character, huh? I mean that's fine as long as she takes a long stroll through this fucking meat grinder of extensive and meticulous character justification to which we've never, ever subjected a male character, that is, until we have to prove we're not sexist by pointing out male characters with the same shortcomings long after the fact in an attempt to verify that we're approaching this topic objectively, and even then we'll mostly try to suggest that the aforementioned male characters were not nearly as troublesome as this lead female character."

Can't it be easily argued that some people refuse to critique the character impartially because they're overly enamored with the fact that she's a woman?

 

[heliosRAzi]

If the force allowed a user to do whatever they wanted they could actually do anything, but one of the major teachings is being humble. It makes Jedi have abilities that make them quite formidable but doesn't make them invincible, especially since we've seen the order get destroyed twice now. Saying it's unearned ignores the context where it's used.

They could do 100% of what they want, though, as long as they mastered the Force.

I think it's unearned. That's how I feel and I took it in the context it was in. The quick pace of the movie hurts the characters.

@bolded


I'd argue those people are vastly the minority. I had no problem with her accelerated use of it. The kids got talent...so to speak.


Anyway I'll bow out. I don't even like star wars that much to invest any further time into this. The whole thing is grounded in un-grounded nonsensical lore anyway.

I know you're bowing up, but I'm alright if someone has talent. Luke had talent. It's just that I don't want to see such a quick growth in such a small amount of time.

 

[Republic of Ezo]

Rey has had combat training on Jakku. Ren and Rey are both basically novices in lightsaber training when you consider the grand scheme of things. One just has more experience clearly but was heavily wounded and incredibly distressed, putting them on equal footing. My entire logic is that considering the context it should be no surprise whatsoever that Rey was able to beat Ren. And guess what, Rey was calm in that moment against someone who was
-wounded
-crazy
-reckless

I mean ffs he got stabbed in his dominant arm by Finn just moments before. The one time Anakin took a step back and used his brain was the only time he was able to beat Dooku compared to the multiple times he let Dooku get to him and attacked with reckless abandon.
Also again, why in the world do you keep ignoring the context as if Kylo wasn't wounded multiple times already before the fight? You're being willfully ignorant at this point by ignoring that.

According to the backstory, Ren killed all of Luke's other Jedi students so he must have some experience with lightsaber combat.

 

[Crossing Eden]

well for the debate you could watch the fight again (clip scene...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh82ahIaNlE

The fight looks like this:

but with the complaints you'd think they showed The Disney Infinity version instead.

They could do 100% of what they want, though, as long as they mastered the Force.

I think it's unearned. That's how I feel and I took it in the context it was in. The quick pace of the movie hurts the characters.

They could do a lot of things but the force has limits, (especially since the EU is now non canon because they could do some ridiculous shit in the EU >_>) unless you become a personification of the force itself.

According to the backstory, Ren killed all of Luke's other Jedi students so he must have some experience with lightsaber combat.

Ofc He does but it wasn't single handedly, he had quite a lot of help, kinda raises the question about where the others are.

Another caveat is that the Jedis in the OT are nowhere near as powerful as they were in their prime. The most complicated thing we saw Kylo do in lightsaber combat was a pirouette.

 

[BlastProcessing]

According to the backstory, Ren killed all of Luke's other Jedi students so he must have some experience with lightsaber combat.

Seems like Ren killed or corrupted the other students. He had quite the posse in that flashback.

My speculation is that Luke wasn't training the students in lightsaber combat at all. I bet that that was on of the main points of friction between Luke and the students who turned. Could have been pretty easy pickings.

 

[Starsailor]

The fight looks like this:

but with the complaints you'd think they showed The Disney Infinity version instead.


They could do a lot of things but the force has limits, (especially since the EU is now non canon because they could do some ridiculous shit in the EU >_>) unless you become a personification of the force itself.


Ofc He does but it wasn't single handedly, he had quite a lot of help, kinda raises the question about where the others are.

Another caveat is that the Jedis in the OT are nowhere near as powerful as they were in their prime. The most complicated thing we saw Kylo do in lightsaber combat was a pirouette.

the scene you showed was absolutely amazing like i said before it's like Link VS Ganon ; Good vs Evil...That was awesome.

 

[Principate]

Rey has had combat training on Jakku. Ren and Rey are both basically novices in lightsaber training when you consider the grand scheme of things. One just has more experience clearly but was heavily wounded and incredibly distressed, putting them on equal footing. My entire logic is that considering the context it should be no surprise whatsoever that Rey was able to beat Ren. And guess what, Rey was calm in that moment against someone who was
-wounded
-crazy
-reckless

I mean ffs he got stabbed in his dominant arm by Finn just moments before. The one time Anakin took a step back and used his brain was the only time he was able to beat Dooku compared to the multiple times he let Dooku get to him and attacked with reckless abandon.
Also again, why in the world do you keep ignoring the context as if Kylo wasn't wounded multiple times already before the fight? You're being willfully ignorant at this point by ignoring that.

That's a massive illogical assumption on your end, he was trained by luke skywalker and dark side force user and has actually engaged in regular combat with a lightsaber. To call him a novice with it is laugable at best

 

[Boss Doggie]

It saddens me that no one seems to remember or mention Ahsoka. Like you got this people screaming about misogyny towards the fans and such, when they're pretty much exposed to great characters like her.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's a massive illogical assumption on your end, he was trained by luke skywalker and dark side force user and has actually engaged in regular combat with a lightsaber. To call him a novice with it is laugable at best

He was trained by Luke Skywalker but then turned to the darkside and started experiencing the conflict of that. Just look at the way he swings his saber. In fact look at the saber itself, it's like one step away from exploding.

To say he was handicapped would be an understatement considering he also got wounded by Finn who seemingly doesn't have any connection with the force and lost to a stormtrooper.

 

[harSon]

Again, because he was force sensitive Luke went from this

to this

in less than five minutes because he got an explanation of the force. Rey knows how the force works as well. He got his hand cut off because he was completely outclassed and thus gave into his fear of Vader to the point that he was shivering. Not to mention, unlike Ren, Vader didn't have a hole in his gut from a blaster shot and was completely calm while fighting Luke.

That scene is the equivalent of you struggling to do a bench press, and someone points out that your grip is too close together - and once correcting the bad form you're able to do it. You had the necessary tools to do it, and would have likely figured it out on your own, but thanks to having a seasoned practitioner at your backside - the learning curve was considerably lessened.

Rey is told what the force is by someone looking from the outside in, and Luke is given step by step instructions by an experienced teacher and force practitioner.

There's also a difference between practice against a droid with no legitimate consequences suffered if messing up, with the wisdom of an experienced teacher at your backside, and flying solo against a live opponent where any misstep can cost the life of you and your friend.

Maybe she has a more natural aptitude for the force than Luke, and is more of a prodigy in comparison. I just felt Luke's progressions were better handled, and I think the presence of Obi Wan was the biggest reason why. She could have very well had previous training, but we're only able to go off what we're shown.

 

[Principate]

He was trained by Luke Skywalker but then turned to the darkside and started experiencing the conflict of that. Just look at the way he swings his saber. In fact look at the saber itself, it's like one step away from exploding.

To say he was handicapped would be an understatement considering he also got wounded by Finn who seemingly doesn't have any connection with the force and lost to a stormtrooper.

He was prone to rage outbursts much like Anakin Skywalker, who despite all his bullshit was still midly competant.

The whole allure of Dark side is short term easy power. The kind of power that would overwhelm a novice. To say a dark side user is incompetant because of his rage issues is to say the dark side is completely worthless with no short term upsides whatsoever.

 

[RockTurtle]

she kept trying to stab with the saber.

first jedi to use sabers like a fencing sword? a fencer jedi. that'd be tits!

 

[igordennis]

Rey is told what the force is by someone looking from the outside in, and Luke is given step by step instructions by an experienced teacher and force practitioner.

That's completely ridiculous. What was Obi-wan's line again eden? It was like "use your feelings" or something like that. Step by step instructions...lol

 

[Carcetti]

Rey is told what the force is by someone looking from the outside in, and Luke is given step by step instructions by an experienced teacher and force practitioner.

You'd think from this that Luke took a Jedi Academy course instead of having an old guy tell him 'put a hat on and go with the flow'.

 

[harSon]

That's completely ridiculous. What was Obi-wan's line again eden? It was like "use your feelings" or something like that. Step by step instructions...lol

He told him to stop thinking and simply react on instinct, and to not be a slave to senses like sight - then proceeded to give him equipment to highlight that latter point by taking it out of the equation completely.

 

[BlastProcessing]

she kept trying to stab with the saber.

first jedi to use sabers like a fencing sword? a fencer jedi. that'd be tits!

Her thrusts and overhead strikes are very much what you would expect from someone proficient with a quarterstaff. It's a nice touch.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That scene is the equivalent of you struggling to do a bench press, and someone points out that your grip is too close together - and once correcting the bad form you're able to do it. You had the necessary tools to do it, and would have likely figured it out on your own, but thanks to having a seasoned practitioner at your backside - the learning curve was considerably lessened.

Rey is told what the force is by someone looking from the outside in, and Luke is given step by step instructions by an experienced teacher and force practitioner.

There's also a difference between practice against a droid with no legitimate consequences suffered if messing up, with the wisdom of an experienced teacher at your backside, and flying solo against a live opponent where any misstep can cost the life of you and your friend.

Maybe she has a more natural aptitude for the force than Luke, and is more of a prodigy in comparison. I just felt Luke's progressions were better handled, and I think the presence of Obi Wan was the biggest reason why. She could have very well had previous training, but we're only able to go off what we're shown.

Luke wasn't given step by step instructions, Ben just said "Use your feelings." Luke then proceeded to block three different shots in relatively quick succession as if he's always held a lightsaber. Because the force comes incredibly naturally if you become in tune with it even if it's for a short burst. Every time Luke struggles with the force afterwards it's because he defaults to not believing in it's capabilities, or is quite weakened. Rey however doesn't have that problem since she's the opposite, she believes in it because she's heard stories about it and has firsthand experience with it voluntarily and involuntarily just like other characters in the series.

He was prone to rage outbursts much like Anakin Skywalker, who despite all his bullshit was still midly competant.

The whole allure of Dark side is short term easy power. The kind of power that would overwhelm a novice. To say a dark side user is incompetant because of his rage issues is to say the dark side is completely worthless with no short term upsides whatsoever.

When did Anakin whip out a lightsaber and swing it around all willy nilly in anger. It would overwhelm a novice if their opponent didn't give them time to breath and "use their feelings"

The whole point is that Kylo despite being a dark side user is conflicted and unable to completely embrace the dark side even when doing the one thing that should've pushed him over the edge. Meanwhile Rey in that instance is able to embrace her destiny and due to the circumstances is able to defeat Kylo who is being incredibly haphazard and reckless compared to before where he was able to completely immobilize her quite easily.

 

[DrForester]

He got his hand cut off because he was completely outclassed and thus gave into his fear of Vader to the point that he was shivering. Not to mention, unlike Ren, Vader didn't have a hole in his gut from a blaster shot and was completely calm while fighting Luke.

One of the reasons I love the ESB fight so much is the choreography is just so good at conveying that Vader is just screwing with Luke the entire time. Luke is throwing everything he can think of at Vader and Vader is treating it like a sparing match.

 

[Crossing Eden]

One of the reasons I love the ESB fight so much is the choreography is just so good at conveying that Vader is just screwing with Luke the entire time. Luke is throwing everything he can think of at Vader and Vader is treating it like a sparing match.

I actually love Rey vs Kylo Ren because the choreography is incredibly good at conveying how each individual is feeling especially after Rey starts to use the force. She spends the first half of the fight dodging around.

 

[harSon]

Luke wasn't given step by step instructions, Ben just said "Use your feelings." Luke then proceeded to block three different shots in relatively quick succession as if he's always held a lightsaber. Because the force comes incredibly naturally if you become in tune with it even if it's for a short burst. Every time Luke struggles with the force afterwards it's because he defaults to not believing in it's capabilities, or is quite weakened. Rey however doesn't have that problem since she's the opposite, she believes in it because she's heard stories about it and has firsthand experience with it voluntarily and involuntarily just like other characters in the series.

You guys need to rewatch the scene. Obi Wan literally observes Luke and gives him tips each time he fails. When he fails to do it the first time, he grabs the helmet with the eye shield and says "This time let go of your conscious self and act on instinct. Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." He observes him again, and when he fails - he suggests that he "stretch out with your feelings." He succeeds thereafter.

And directly after Han says "Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living? That's something else" which is the biggest difference between comparing this training under Ben's tutelage and Rey's uninstructed learning on the fly against skilled opponents.

 

[GhaleonEB]

You guys need to rewatch the scene. Obi Wan literally observes Luke and gives him tips each time he fails. When he fails to do it the first time, he grabs the helmet with the eye shield and says "This time let go of your conscious self and act on instinct. Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." He observes him again, and when he fails - he suggests that he "stretch out with your feelings."

And directly after Han says "Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living? That's something else" which is the biggest difference between comparing this training under Ben's tutelage and Rey's uninstructed learning on the fly against skilled opponents.

This is still very vague stuff for someone who just learned what the Force is. And it's also in the context of a farmer using a sword for the first time to block three point blank laser blasts with said sword, while blind. Rey never does anything that batshit crazy in the TFA.

 

[Not]

Can't it be easily argued that some people refuse to critique the character impartially because they're overly enamored with the fact that she's a woman?

I would argue that there're far more valid reasons to be "overly enamored" with Rey, the first female lead in a Star Wars movie, than overly critical.

 

[Kin5290]

Gary Syu is a term that exists. The notion that Mary Sue is inherently sexist is equally inherently flawed as all you need to do is swap the character with a guy if you still have a problem with the character then it's simply the actions itself you have issue with if not then your obviously sexist. Rey is clearly overpowered in a bad way. I find it difficult to root for her when she's already defeated a major bad guy while a novice. It doesn't feel earned and screams of deus ex machina

Gary Stu is a term that exists, but the notion of the Mary Sue is inherently sexist because it is disproportionately applied to female characters who are "too competent". A large market exists for competence porn... with male heroes. Hell, the Taken inspired trend of Daddy Knows Best action movies has just recently died off, and all of them featured Marty Stu protagonists who were just "cool" or "badass" instead of being called out as Marty Stus.

These criticisms of Rey do seem to be motivated by gender because the Force explicitly doesn't work like an RPG mechanic where you must grind so many experience points to level up and unlock a new ability. This is OG Force, not the prequel trash.

The worst part about all this "Rey is a Mary Sue" bullshit is that you know Colin Trevorrow will be looking at all these complaints and writing in damsel moments for her all over the script.

 

[zethren]

They not always distressed but it's not a inherent hindrance against a complete novice in lightsaber training. Your argument is basically, Rey could beat someone like Anakin who was clearly crazy and insane despite Anakin straight up defeating dooku. Which is bill shot because being crazy and insane is not a hindrance unless you fighting someone trained and calm e.g obi wan

But it was a hindrance on Ren, who was not fully trained yet. Additionally he WAS wounded, probably more seriously than we realize, by the bowcaster shot. Considering those two points, in addition to 1) that he was ordered to bring her in alive and 2) that she is naturally strong in the Force (Kylo even flat out says this so the audience knows it in case it wasn't already obvious enough), there really is no argument here.

Edit: Crossing Eden has it right. Those two gifs of Luke training tell it all.

Edit 2: it's also worth noting that while lightsaber combat is new to her, hand to hand and close range weapon combat is not.

 

[Brakke]

Stop calling him Ren it's like calling Darth Vader : "Darth".
Ren is just a title. And it can be confusing with "Rey"

Actually, nah. The movie calls him "Ren", too. When Finn busts out Poe he says to the other Stormtrooper "Ren wants the pilot." or whatever. Definitely refers to Kylo just as "Ren".

 

[Boss Doggie]

Gary Stu is a term that exists, but the notion of the Mary Sue is inherently sexist because it is disproportionately applied to female characters who are "too competent". A large market exists for competence porn... with male heroes. Hell, the Taken inspired trend of Daddy Knows Best action movies has just recently died off, and all of them featured Marty Stu protagonists who were just "cool" or "badass" instead of being called out as Marty Stus.

These criticisms of Rey do seem to be motivated by gender because the Force explicitly doesn't work like an RPG mechanic where you must grind so many experience points to level up and unlock a new ability. This is OG Force, not the prequel trash.

The worst part about all this "Rey is a Mary Sue" bullshit is that you know Colin Trevorrow will be looking at all these complaints and writing in damsel moments for her all over the script.

You do realize that you also get "women who do badass" stuff right? Also people criticize those films too especially the characters for most of the time right? It's like you forgot that most of those action movies are considered "brain dead" or "turn your brains off" kind of deal.

And OG force requires training still you know. ANH Luke doesn't even do Force stuff for the bulk of the film.

 

[Crossing Eden]

You guys need to rewatch the scene. Obi Wan literally observes Luke and gives him tips each time he fails. When he fails to do it the first time, he grabs the helmet with the eye shield and says "This time let go of your conscious self and act on instinct. Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." He observes him again, and when he fails - he suggests that he "stretch out with your feelings." He succeeds thereafter.

And directly after Han says "Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living? That's something else" which is the biggest difference between comparing this training under Ben's tutelage and Rey's uninstructed learning on the fly against skilled opponents.

That's not expert instruction though. The point is that it was never established that you need a jedi master there teaching you to learn to use the force because of the way the force works. Like someone else said, it's not an rpg where you need to grind to learn how to use it.

 

[heliosRAzi]

And OG force requires training still you know. ANH Luke doesn't even do Force stuff for the bulk of the film.

He blocked the shots and then blew up the Death Star. As far as I remember, that's it.

 

[Brakke]

This is still very vague stuff for someone who just learned what the Force is. And it's also in the context of a farmer using a sword for the first time to block three point blank laser blasts with said sword, while blind. Rey never does anything that batshit crazy in the TFA.

It's weird how much stock you put in that. Luke beats a little remote in a "battle" that lasts four seconds vs Rey *drives an experienced force user out of her mind and even reads his mind briefly* and then she bends a person to her will. Rey clearly does more impressive Force things than Luke beating the remote.

 

[Boss Doggie]

He blocked the shots and then blew up the Death Star. As far as I remember, that's it.

Shot blocks when Obi was training him for the first time right? As for the Death Star, it still involved Obi.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Shot blocks when Obi was training him for the first time right? As for the Death Star, it still involved Obi.

I think that's it. That blocked shots was the first time he did stuff with the Force, IIRC.

 

[GhaleonEB]

It's weird how much stock you put in that. Luke beats a little remote in a "battle" that lasts four seconds vs Rey *drives an experienced force user out of her mind and even reads his mind briefly* and then she bends a person to her will. Rey clearly does more impressive Force things than Luke beating the remote.

I think folks such as yourself are so used to Luke doing it that you don't stop to think about how crazy it really is, how little "training" Luke gets, and when combined with the "impossible" shot at the end (also with no training), the fact that his feats are really not so different from Rey's.

Rey is learning from Kylo through actions, mostly from him working her over. Luke got a few fluffy words of encouragement from Obi-Wan and that's literally all, but somehow the latter constitutes robust training. Meanwhile, having someone messing with your head and pushing them out in a reflex of anger, and then realizing you can do that, is totally out of bounds.

This is a massive double standard.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's weird how much stock you put in that. Luke beats a little remote in a "battle" that lasts four seconds vs Rey *drives an experienced force user out of her mind and even reads his mind briefly* and then she bends a person to her will. Rey clearly does more impressive Force things than Luke beating the remote.

Consider her predicament, we have no idea if Kylo's mind reading power can actually work on force users. And let's not forget that Rey's makes quite the effort to do all of the things she does except for the piloting part which is heavily implied to be involuntary which we've seen happen before.

 

[Dice//]

she kept trying to stab with the saber.

first jedi to use sabers like a fencing sword? a fencer jedi. that'd be tits!

I really dug the tonfa/riot Stormtrooper. Truly a game-changing film.

 

[zethren]

The bottom line is that the Force was reaching out to her. She opened herself up to it and let it in, and through her it defeated Kylo. That on top of a number of reasons.

The Force does have a will, and can provide extraordinary power and aid.

LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi Wan: partially, but it also obeys your commands.

Additionally--

Yoda: the Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is.

 

[mikefrails]

Personally I feel that she's being judged more harshly because she's female, but aye.

 

[Renekton]

Again, because he was force sensitive Luke went from this
http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/im...g-we-know-about-luke-skywalker-gif-195010.gif

to this

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l31pvhSTKZ1qznd83o1_500.gif

in less than five minutes because he got an explanation of the force.

It is just training, likely with more total tutelage time than 5 minutes prior from Kenobi. He never got to apply that ability in battle anyways, so for all we know he is only as good as any new academy student. Rey used RotJ Luke skills under pressure without Kenobi's guidance.

Rey is just far better than ANH Luke.

I think folks such as yourself are so used to Luke doing it that you don't stop to think about how crazy it really is, how little "training" Luke gets, and when combined with the "impossible" shot at the end (also with no training), the fact that his feats are really not so different from Rey's.

They are very different.

- Not as superb a mechanic (did not repair Millenium Falcon and out-do Solo)
- Not as skillful a pilot (did not perform the crazy near-ground-level Falcon maneuvers)
- Not as powerful in the force (safe blindfolded training versus Rey using RotJ powers on the fly, come on)
- Final Death Star run was aided by Wedge (flank), Solo (bailing him out from Vader), Kenobi (shot guide), Force (means the force guided the shot rather than personal proficiency)
- Did not come up with nearly all of the scene-saving plans (Solo, Leia and Kenobi did)

 

[Veelk]

It's weird how much stock you put in that. Luke beats a little remote in a "battle" that lasts four seconds vs Rey *drives an experienced force user out of her mind and even reads his mind briefly* and then she bends a person to her will. Rey clearly does more impressive Force things than Luke beating the remote.

I find it surprising how little stock you put in the idea that Luke can magically sense shots while blindfolded.

Which he then used to make the impossible shot he made.

 

[yanipheonu]

Lol people are saying she's a Mary Sue?

That's adorable. They need to see more shitty fanfiction and over-the-top self-insert characters.

Rey was a perfectly fine action hero, no more of a Mary Sue than Luke Skywalker.

 

[harSon]

I find it surprising how little stock you put in the idea that Luke can magically sense shots while blindfolded.

Which he then used to make the impossible shot he made.

The ability to sniff out imminent danger is one of the qualities of the force. It's actually one of the few qualities that are clear as day and generally agreed upon, and provable within the context of the universe time and time again. It's the reason only those who are force sensitive can deflect lasers with their light sabers.

I think folks such as yourself are so used to Luke doing it that you don't stop to think about how crazy it really is, how little "training" Luke gets, and when combined with the "impossible" shot at the end (also with no training), the fact that his feats are really not so different from Rey's.

Rey is learning from Kylo through actions, mostly from him working her over. Luke got a few fluffy words of encouragement from Obi-Wan and that's literally all, but somehow the latter constitutes robust training. Meanwhile, having someone messing with your head and pushing them out in a reflex of anger, and then realizing you can do that, is totally out of bounds.

This is a massive double standard.

Where'd she learn Jedi Mind Tricks from?

 

[harSon]

Edit: Double Post

 

[Sixfortyfive]

These criticisms of Rey do seem to be motivated by gender because the Force explicitly doesn't work like an RPG mechanic where you must grind so many experience points to level up and unlock a new ability. This is OG Force, not the prequel trash.

It's not about "experience points." It's about fundamental, as basic as possible character development.

A few people have brought up The Matrix, where Neo is basically a god in the flesh, but the entirety of the movie is about him working to realize that potential step-by-step, and that's why it works. He fails at jump simulations like everyone else, and it takes a while before he can keep up in fight simulations because he hasn't yet internalized that they're not "real." He has to practice and improve. It's not a perfect movie by any stretch (the way Trinity gets him to recover and make that final push at the end always felt kind of hokey to me, personally), but it's still a good character arc overall.

TFA doesn't have the time to do all of its characters justice, and Rey ends up with the short end of the stick in that regard. She has to be a competent pilot, duelist, and escape artist because the plot simply demands it, and there isn't time to develop her properly. To be fair, it's not like the film does an absolutely terrible job of it. Kylo Ren is a clearly flawed opponent, and his battle was a team effort. She's decent enough at piloting the Falcon, but there's a sense that the vehicle only survives the events of the movie because it's built like a fucking tank and can handle some abuse.

But I just can't get over her knowledge of and adequacy at using the force without any known prior training or study. Even then it's not all bad. Pushing back against Kylo Ren's interrogation and flipping it around on him was legitimately cool imo. You can get the impression that she began to understand what he was doing and, through natural talent, flipped it back around on him after she got used to it. But the escape from her bindings? How did she even know that mind control was a thing, and how did she manage to pull it off? It's all a little too much, and it needs to be explained away to some extent in further sequels.

But why critique writing or characterization when you can just dismiss this all by babbling about sexism or gender roles, right?