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[entremet]

Not because those were strong points imo, the structure of that GIF-spam post makes it hard to reply to.

It's also a bit lazy and annoying to keep reposting that.

You can type, formulate and prove your arguments.

But to be fair, it's been a fun discussion. I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue, but I find the storytelling behind her character pretty shallow. You can say, "Hey, It's SW!" But audiences are more demanding these days.

JJ played it too safe. Good flick, but way too safe. Hopefully the sequels cover some new ground for the franchise. But he did what he needed to do, wash the stank that the PT created for the series.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Ultimately, I do think they handled some aspects of the film poorly. We can talk about how the details of what's justified or not all night long, but at the end of the day, the film makers failed to communicate things well enough to prevent these things from being distracting. That's simply bad storytelling.

I think that's the real issue, some of the scenes could have been written better, things could haven have been foreshadowed and built up more effectively than they were.

The Force Awakens is effectively a Original Trilogy Greatest Hits Remix at times, and the Rey character just happens to be the one most often used to facilitate a specific callback, and sometimes it felt rushed or unearned.

Example, Rey flying the Falcon is perfectly acceptable, but Rey immediately flying through a crashed a Super Star Destroyer to give us a RotJ/Deathstar callback sequence seemed a bit rushed to some folks. If it had happened later in the movie after a bit of build up, I don't think it would be brought up. Honestly, nothing Rey does in and off itself is wrong, it's often just the speed and context in which it happens that makes it feel a bit off.

Things being poorly communicated isn't a Rey only situation, we have people in this thread arguing Kylo Ren isn't even dark-side user, and is a novice that barely knows how to hold a lightsaber. It's totally my opinion, but I highly doubt that JJ ever wanted the character to be perceived as not even a dark-side user, like nobody should think that, even Darth Maul didn't get those kind of arguments.

Those are script issues plain and simple.

 

[DragonSworne]

It's also a bit lazy and annoying to keep reposting that.

You can type, formulate and prove your arguments.

But to be fair, it's been a fun discussion. I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue, but I find the storytelling behind her character pretty shallow. You can say, "Hey, It's SW!" But audiences are more demanding these days.

JJ played it too safe. Good flick, but way too safe. Hopefully the sequels cover some new ground for the franchise. But he did what he needed to do, wash the stank that the PT created for the series.

Having a black man and a woman as the heros in the movie is playing it safe. Honestly, people aren't given the cast choice enough credit. The cast is the furthest thing from safe.

 

[deathkiller]

This is a very well reasoned post. I would like to have seen more training for Rey, but if I look at from your perspective then her abilities make more sense, and are grounded by the rules set in prior movies.

I agree that it fits the rules of the OT though in PT/Clone wars we never see a case like Rey, force users are either trained or have such inherent talent that they can use the force in some cases as a babies. I love OP (overpowered) characters though, but Rey will likely not look like one in VIII.

 

[PeskyToaster]

I feel like claiming strawman on the internet means you ran out of things to say.

 

[deathkiller]

I feel like claiming strawman on the internet means you ran out of things to say.

Well yes, that post might not be the most clear strawman argument ever, so I concede that is only strawman little for ignoring the context and full extent of the original arguments to make them easier to counter. I don't even disagree for most of the points of the post, I just dislike the tone.

 

[entremet]

Having a black man and a woman as the heros in the movie is playing it safe. Honestly, people aren't given the cast choice enough credit. The cast is the furthest thing from safe.

I'm talking about storytelling specifically, not the representation.

Also criticizing one aspect of the film, doesn't negate things it did right. There are many things I liked about the movie--the acting, it was well shot, well paced, had funny lines, great action, etc.

 

[zethren]

Damn, I haven't seen the Empire Strikes Back in years Lol. Regardless, unless Abrams retconned the way Jedi Mind Tricks - what Kylo Ren was doing was not Jedi Mind Tricks. Considering how meticulous they were in adhering to the rules of the universe, especially with respect to the original trilogy - Jedi Mind Tricks have an extremely distinctive visual look and tonal sound to it. And it's only supposed to work on the weak-minded, unless you consider Poe weak minded considering Kylo Ren was doing the same shit to him that she was doing to Ren.

Unless you're suggesting that she somehow extracted the knowledge in a reverse mind probing?

She's heard legends of Luke, and legends of the Jedi. No doubt she's heard the stories of what he/they can do. Han affirmed everything to her in saying that the "the stories are true, all of it". Rey believes in the Force after that, and opens herself up to it. ON TOP OF THAT, Maz flat out tells her that the Force is calling out to her.

So she opens herself up to the Force and attempts one of the things she probably heard the Jedi can do. She doubted it at first which is why she failed 2 times before becoming confident in herself and succeeding on the third try.

It's all there in the movie.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

It's all there in the movie.

And it's seemingly conveyed poorly enough that people are also arguing she Vulcan-mind melded with Ren and downloaded "Force-skills" like Neo in the Matrix. Reading the theories in this thread is like watching "Drunk History: Star Wars Edition".

 

[deathkiller]

So she opens herself up to the Force and attempts one of the things she probably heard the Jedi can do.

That is pretty easy to believe since episode 1 established that jedi mind tricks are popular knowledge. I think that most people don't argue that there are ways to explain what Rey does but that they feel that it would had been better if the movie made clear what was the explanation.

I am confused about the talk about she having received Jedi training according to the flashback/premonition, if there was a mention I missed it or interpreted it differently.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Well yes, that post might not be the most clear strawman argument ever, so I concede that is only strawman little for ignoring the context and full extent of the original arguments to make them easier to counter. I don't even disagree for most of the points of the post, I just dislike the tone.

I think it's inherent to arguing in such a way as this. People are just summarising the arguments they've seen. We can't expect a poster to go back and pull multiple examples from a thousand post thread. It's just part of arguing in a large thread I think.


On a separate note: One thing is that with Anakin's use of the Force he is able to compete in podraces before even knowing about the Force. Podraces have been established as something normal humans can't physically do. And he's doing it at age 9.

 

[zethren]

And it's seemingly conveyed poorly enough that people are also arguing she Vulcan-mind melded with Ren and downloaded "Force-skills" like Neo in the Matrix. Reading the theories in this thread is like watching "Drunk History: Star Wars Edition".

It's conveyed perfectly fine.
People are just either not paying attention or grasping at straws unnecessarily.

Yes she began testing her sensitivity with the Force when Kylo was reading her mind, in attempt to push him out. That's where the slope of her truly beginning to use the Force knowingly started kicking it up and it went from there.

 

[MogCakes]

It's conveyed perfectly fine.
People are just either not paying attention or grasping at straws unnecessarily.

Yeah no. No. This is blind adoration without explanation. Several people in the past couple of pages have detailed why they believe this is one aspect the film did not handle well.

 

[zethren]

Yeah no. No. This is blind adoration without explanation. Several people in the past couple of pages have detailed why they believe this is one aspect the film did not handle well.

It was perfectly clear to me on the first viewing because of the many context clues throughout the film's dialog, and having seen the previous films many times over throughout my life.

Perhaps that's anecdotal, but it's easier for me to believe that people simply weren't paying attention.

 

[BOND CO STOOGE]

I agree that it fits the rules of the OT though in PT/Clone wars we never see a case like Rey, force users are either trained or have such inherent talent that they can use the force in some cases as a babies. I love OP (overpowered) characters though, but Rey will likely not look like one in VIII.

I didn't really feel that Rey was OP, I would have liked to see some more development of her as a Force user. I'm a casual fan of SW, so I'm sure I miss some of the nuances from the EU. I've never watched the clone wars, so I am completely ignorant of any mythos from that part of the EU. I kind of hold to the OT, and I expected a similar arc for Rey's development compared to Luke's. However, she's a really cool character, and I'm looking forward to where she goes from here. I don't know what is in store for her, and that excites me.

 

[PeskyToaster]

It's also a bit lazy and annoying to keep reposting that.

You can type, formulate and prove your arguments.

But to be fair, it's been a fun discussion. I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue, but I find the storytelling behind her character pretty shallow. You can say, "Hey, It's SW!" But audiences are more demanding these days.

JJ played it too safe. Good flick, but way too safe. Hopefully the sequels cover some new ground for the franchise. But he did what he needed to do, wash the stank that the PT created for the series.

In what ways do you feel audiences are more demanding? I think it's true but I think they are demanding in a way that diminishes the film.

 

[MogCakes]

It was perfectly clear to me on the first viewing because of the many context clues throughout the film's dialog, and having seen the previous films many times over throughout my life.

Perhaps that's anecdotal, but it's easier for me to believe that people simply weren't paying attention.

It might have been clear to you, but to many people it came completely out of left field. I'm unaware of any specific references to JMT in the movie before or after that scene and i've seen it 3 times. Having to come up with our own explanations or assumptions means there was something left to be desired in the execution. Relying on the audience to call back to the previous movies to handwave something a main character does with no cues or agency is lazy.

 

[lachesis]

actually, It's pretty refreshing to see a pure hearted character, so I didn't mind it at all. I don't think Rey was any annoying or Mary Sue - I just understood that she had this natural born talent & understanding of the force itself - such as doing Jedi mind trick or whatnot.

 

[zethren]

It might have been clear to you, but to many people it came completely out of left field. I'm unaware of any specific references to JMT in the movie before or after that scene and i've seen it 3 times. Having to come up with our own explanations or assumptions means there was something left to be desired in the execution. Relying on the audience to call back to the previous movies to handwave something a main character does with no cues or agency is lazy.

Most of the below is clearly discussed and or shown in TFA:

1) The Force is a well enough established concept to viewers.
2) Rey is naturally Force sensitive (said and clearly implied multiple times in the movie).
3) Rey is familiar with Luke and the legends.
4) Jedi Mind Trick is a well known thing Jedi do. Evidenced by previous films.
5) Han affirms to her that all of the stories she's heard about Luke and the Jedi are true.
6) Maz tells her the Force is calling to her.
7) She is locked up in a chair, and left alone with a single guard. So she attempts one of the things she's heard Jedi can do.
8) She is unsure at first and doubts, so she fails twice. She opens herself up and believes, and succeeds the third time.

It's all in the movie. It's all there. None of that is me coming up with my own assumptions, at all.

And it isn't lazy to call back to previous films seeing as how it is, you know, Episode Seven in a well established series. So no, not at all. Not to mention it isn't necessary for the viewer to callback to previous films to believe what she did, it only serves to further support it is all.

Again, I don't think people were paying attention. Either to the different elements leading up to that moment, or to the Force in general as a concept and how it works within the universe and with the characters there.

Edit: for the record, I absolutely believe there are things this movie did not do well. This is just not one of them, and I'm honestly surprised at the amount of confusion with this scene.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

It's conveyed perfectly fine.
People are just either not paying attention or grasping at straws unnecessarily.

Yes she began testing her sensitivity with the Force when Kylo was reading her mind, in attempt to push him out. That's where the slope of her truly beginning to use the Force knowingly started kicking it up and it went from there.

Yes, so perfectly conveyed that it spawned this nearly 40 page thread of wobbling speculation to try and justify it.

It kinda sorta works most of the time, and even I'll admit I'm nitpicking it to a degree, but "perfectly conveyed" it is not. Rey going from being afraid of Ren and showing no specific knowledge or mastery of force abilities, to reading his mind, Jedi Mind Tricking a Stormtrooper, to force pulling a lightsaber, to beating Ren in a lightsaber duel happens in a really short span of time, and I think some criticizing of that is fair.

I also think most of that is a "first movie" problem, there was an awful lot pieces they needed to get into place, so hopefully the next movie takes its time, I think that will cut down on these kind of threads.

 

[zethren]

I do agree with you that this movie did have a lot of "first movie problems". Another 30 minutes would have been great for both story purposes and just because I would always love more Star Wars.

But again, I sincerely think that this scene was fine and beleivable within the context of the universe, the Force, and what we've come to learn of Rey and what she knows/learns. There is enough context clue groundwork laid out in TFA to support it.

 

[DragonSworne]

I do agree with you that this movie did have a lot of "first movie problems". Another 30 minutes would have been great for both story purposes and just because I would always love more Star Wars.

But again, I sincerely think that this scene was fine and beleivable within the context of the universe, the Force, and what we've come to learn of Rey and what she knows/learns.

30 minutes longer who have done nothing but just add more pointless exposition on top of the terrible exposition in the movie. This movie needed less exposition, mainly cut out leia's scenes with Han.

Plus, if you made it 30 minutes longer no one would go see it more than once.

 

[mcz117chief]

I am going to see Star Wars FA for the first time tomorrow and this thread really helped me get a more positive outlook. I really feel much more optimistic about the whole movie. I was expecting a train wreck like the prequel series but most of the stuff here proves that FA seems to be a decently thought out movie. I now think I may actually like it. Thanks GAF

 

[zethren]

30 minutes longer who have done nothing but just add more pointless exposition on top of the terrible exposition in the movie. This movie needed less exposition, mainly cut out leia's scenes with Han.

Plus, if you made it 30 minutes longer no one would go see it more than once.

Fair enough. Lengthy exposition was my number one complaint with this movie.

 

[harSon]

30 minutes longer who have done nothing but just add more pointless exposition on top of the terrible exposition in the movie. This movie needed less exposition, mainly cut out leia's scenes with Han.

Plus, if you made it 30 minutes longer no one would go see it more than once.

True. Plus it's not by chance that the film has the same run time as A New Hope :3

 

[MogCakes]

1) The Force is a well enough established concept to viewers.
2) Rey is naturally Force sensitive (said and clearly implied multiple times in the movie).
3) Rey is familiar with Luke and the legends.
4) Jedi Mind Trick is a well known thing Jedi do. Evidenced by previous films.
5) Han affirms to her that all of the stories she's heard about Luke and the Jedi are true.
6) Maz tells her the Force is calling to her.
7) She is locked up in a chair, and left alone with a single guard. So she attempts one of the things she's heard Jedi can do.
8) She is unsure at first and doubts, so she fails twice. She opens herself up and believes, and succeeds the third time.

It's all in the movie. It's all there. None of that is me coming up with my own assumptions, at all.

And it isn't lazy to call back to previous films seeing as how it is, you know, Episode Seven in a well established series. So no, not at all. Not to mention it isn't necessary for the viewer to callback to previous films to believe what she did, it only serves to further support it is all.

Again, I don't think people were paying attention. Either to the different elements leading up to that moment, or to the Force in general as a concept and how it works within the universe and with the characters there.

The force being an established concept to us does not excuse Rey pulling JMT out of the blue. As i said before relying on the audience to handwave her JMT is lazy. You have yet to explain how any of this specifically supports or justifies her using JMT without cues or previous showcasing of knowledge. If people aren't paying attention, there sure are a lot of us! Especially having seen it multuple times, we surely are just stupid to not see that connection yeah? Or, the movie gave no explanation before or after of how she knew about JMT or how she found it an appropriate opportunity to try it, leaving many viewers confused.

Rey being force sensitive is well established but has nothing to do with her pulling JMT out of the blue. If she is so familiar with the OT material, the movie should have done a better job of showing it. As it stands, there's no gauge for the audience to know how much of the lore she's familiar with. When she pulls JMT, the result is jarring. The least the film could have done is have her acknowledge that she knows the legends about JMT and just tried it for lack of a better option. Without it, it's left to the audience to assume and make their own explanation, which is lazy.

You say you didn't have to make assumptions, yet your whole justification for her attempting JMT at all is entirely assumptions. This may be episode 7, but it is part 1 of a trilogy. SW does not play out like episodes of a tv show, rather it goes like seasons and each trilogy is a separate story. Establishing the new context and limits is necessary at the start of any new story regardless of it's position within a greater franchise, and Rey using JMT with no prior indication or motive is an example of failure to set context or limits by the film.

You won't be bullet point arguing that one.

 

[DragonSworne]

The force being an established concept to us does not excuse Rey pulling JMT out of the blue. As i said before relying on the audience to handwave her JMT is lazy. You have yet to explain how any of this specifically supports or justifies her using JMT without cues or previous showcasing of knowledge. If people aren't paying attention, there sure are a lot of us! Especially having seen it multuple times, we surely are just stupid to not see that connection yeah? Or, the movie gave no explanation before or after of how she knew about JMT or how she found it an appropriate opportunity to try it, leaving many viewers confused.

Rey being force sensitive is well established but has nothing to do with her pulling JMT out of the blue. If she is so familiar with the OT material, the movie should have done a better job of showing it. As it stands, there's no gauge for the audience to know how much of the lore she's familiar with. When she pulls JMT, the result is jarring. The least the film could have done is have her acknowledge that she knows the legends about JMT and just tried it for lack of a better option. Without it, it's left to the audience to assume and make their own explanation, which is lazy.

You say you didn't have to make assumptions, yet your whole justification for her attempting JMT at all is entirely assumptions. This may be episode 7, but it is part 1 of a trilogy. SW does not play out like episodes of a tv show, rather it goes like seasons and each trilogy is a separate story. Establishing the new context and limits is necessary at the start of any new story regardless of it's position within a greater franchise, and Rey using JMT with no prior indication or motive is an example of failure to set context or limits by the film.

You won't be bullet point arguing that one.

JMT is common knowledge to the characters of Star Wars. Why do you think Rey, who already knows about Jedi's, wouldn't know they can do mind tricks? She would most definitely try a JMT once she has the force.


What's really stupid about this whole debate is that if Rey got out of the room without using the force, people would be in here complaining "lol why didn't she just use the force. They didn't use the force enough lol"

 

[zethren]

They weren't my own assumptions at all, all of it was clearly in the movie and series as a whole. There's really nothing more to say on that, and I absolutely don't agree with you.

 

[MogCakes]

That would be a fine explanation, but the movie gave none. As such it's left to the viewers to make the assumption.

Well zethren, your points aren't assumptions but without specific acknowledgement that Rey herself knew of JMT and decided to try it, it comes off as jarring amd the required explanation necessitates an assumption.

 

[zethren]

That would be a fine explanation, but the movie gave none. As such it's left to the viewers to make the assumption.

Rey: "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was just a myth!?"

Han: "It's all true."

That with JMT being common knowledge.

It's all you need. It's all there...

 

[MogCakes]

Rey: "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was just a myth!?"

Han: "It's all true."

That with JMT being common knowledge.

It's all you need. It's all there...

The movie should have established that JMT is common knowledge then, like the movies before it did. Jabba is shown to know of it by him uttering a single line. TFA has no such moment.

 

[zethren]

The movie should have established that JMT is common knowledge then, like the movies before it did. Jabba is shown to know of it by him uttering a single line. TFA has no such moment.

That's reaching, man. It's established in the series that it is common knowledge. Only one episode ago, even. Every single thing doesn't need to be re-established in every single movie.

In many ways you can watch TFA without seeing the previous films, and enjoy it. In other ways you'd be doing yourself a disservice, this is one of those ways. It's not lazy, that's the nature of a series like this.

 

[MogCakes]

I completely disagree. It's necessary to re-establish and enforce otherwise abstract bits like JMT being common knowledge to keep consistency and avoid jarring situations such as a force user attempting it with no prior indication they knew. It's perfectly plausible that she does, but it was never shown before or after and it should have been. Consistent reinforcing of these concepts makes them more concrete and better serves the narrative. As i said before, establishing context and limits for the characters' actions is absolutely necessary especially for the first part of a new trilogy.

 

[zethren]

And I completely disagree with you that it is necessary for this particular instance and scene. Given everything else in the movie and series, I disagree. And neither of us will change the other's mind, which is fine.

 

[MogCakes]

That's alright. It was a fruitful debate.

 

[entremet]

In what ways do you feel audiences are more demanding? I think it's true but I think they are demanding in a way that diminishes the film.

I consider the film to be a B effort. It's good. But audiences are more demanding in many ways. Look at TV shows from the 80s compared to now. It's massive difference in storytelling and character development.

Obviously film is shorter and relies on a more classic three act structure.

But, but even simple comic book movies have people arguing about having more believable villains and characters. Look at the debates that ensued about Black Widow showing vulnerability in Avengers 2?

Were we having these discussions during Rami's Spiderman films? I don't remember them. Audiences and tastes evolves.

This movie doesn't exist in a vacuum and it seems JJ just wanted a simple "remake" of sorts. Again, the movie is still good, but I don't know why people are acting as this movie can't be critiqued for storytelling flaws.

 

[Scrooged]

It doesn't even need to be common knowledge. Just knowledge to anyone who is interested in the Jedi 'myth'. It's not a stretch at all to assume that Rey knows some details about Jedi powers. This argument is really grasping at straws.

 

[PeskyToaster]

That would be a fine explanation, but the movie gave none. As such it's left to the viewers to make the assumption.

Well zethren, your points aren't assumptions but without specific acknowledgement that Rey herself knew of JMT and decided to try it, it comes off as jarring amd the required explanation necessitates an assumption.

Movies taking time to explain everything is why they feel so slow compared to ANH. The Force isn't a spellbook where you need to be taught incantations. You let it in and it guides you. Just like it guides your lightsaber, your piloting, your proton torpedoes, and everything else. The movies doesn't need to and shouldn't explain that.

 

[zethren]

That's alright. It was a fruitful debate.

For sure

I for one am simply glad to be this energized about Star Wars again. I've loved it for upwards of 20 years, but I never expected another good Star Wars film, to be honest.

 

[MogCakes]

In this case, the explanation would have taken no longer than a couple of seconds with Rey acknowledging her prior knowledge.

And really, it is a nitpick. But all criticisms are equal IMO no matter how small.

And Pesky, explaining exactly what the force -is- was a large recurring theme throughout the OT that took the main characters a long time to accept. I for one consider that a worthy theme to bring back for a new trilogy beginning 30 years later with a new cast.

 

[BTM]

"The Jedi, the dark side, Jedi mind trick. It's all true".

 

[Scrooged]

In this case, the explanation would have taken no longer than a couple of seconds with Rey acknowledging her prior knowledge.

Han confirms that the legend of the Jedi are true.

 

[JB1981]

I mean you would think that mind-tricking someone would be pretty advanced Jedi stuff so yea the scene is played for laughs and works on that level but it doesn't make sense given her level of exposure to the force.

 

[MogCakes]

Han's confirmation is too broad to be brought up as explanation for her attempting JMT later on. A specific reference to her knowledge beforehand or after she uses it would put all doubt to rest.

 

[MogCakes]

Double posting, but to put it to rest. It could be as simple as "I can't believe that worked!". In 5 words she has established that she was previously aware of the trick and there is now context for her having attempted it in lieu of everything else that happens in the movie. Small gestures like this go a long way towards connecting disparate elements (the line above that i made up would have highlighted Han's confirmation of the force being real) into a consistent narrative.

 

[igordennis]

Double posting, but to put it to rest. It could be as simple as "I can't believe that worked!". In 5 words she has established that she was previously aware of the trick and there is now context for her having attempted it in lieu of everything else that happens in the movie. Small gestures like this go a long way towards connecting disparate elements (the line above that i made up would have highlighted Han's confirmation of the force being real) into a consistent narrative.

Do you need everything spelled out to you? The mere fact that she tried it is enough to show the audience that she knows about JMT. No need for that unnecessary line of dialogue (more needless exposition...) if the movie demonstrates it naturally. Show, dont tell.

 

[Kin5290]

I saw the mind trick as Kylo Ren mucking about in her head with the Force, and she managed to push back enough to take a peek in his head with the Force. Having just experienced how someone might muck about in your head with the Firce, she then tried mucking about in a Stormtrooper's head, and eventually succeeds.

 

[Kinokou]

Coming straight out of the cinema and having been aware of this topics existence I tried to pay some extra attention to her.

And I must say that outside of the force and piloting her solutions to problems seem explainable to come from poking around the inside of crashed and otherwise defunct space ships.

The force and piloting and attributt to what I presume are Skywalker genes, which I can understand why some people would have issues with but on the other hand are kind of typical main character characteristics.

Honestly, Finn was the oddball to me. He says he comes from sanitation, decided to quit during his first battle, needs to learn how to use ship cannons but can somehow handle a lightsaber? How? I just don't get that part. Rey being used to having a quarterstaff and handled her self well in close combat should be much better than him at that IMO.

 

[MogCakes]

Do you need everything spelled out to you? The mere fact that she tried it is enough to show the audience that she knows about JMT. No need for that unnecessary line of dialogue (more needless exposition...) if the movie demonstrates it naturally. Show, dont tell.

It seems to me to be necessary if so many people are confused about it. In this case, the movie did not show well enough to not need to tell. It's more lack of a justification than spelling out. Spelling out would be Rey thinking out loud about JMT.

 

[Cranster]

People here complaining about Rey pulling off a Jedi Mind Trick. Somehow it's less believable than a 10 year old accidently piloting a starship to a space battle then into a command ship and thereby accidently destroying said command ship, all while accidently surviving it.