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[Adaren]

From Wookiepedia, the novel apparently states that she intuited that a JMT might be possible based on resisting Kylo's mental probe and influencing his thoughts.

So yeah. If that's true then she just guessed that it was possible / how to do it. No prior knowledge.

And regardless of how she figured it out, the fact that it was jarring for a non-trivial portion of the audience (and that apparently many viewers misinterpreted how she figured it out and whether or not the JMT was common knowledge) probably means it could have been handled better.

 

[MogCakes]

Anakin piloting a fighter and singlehandedly destroying the Federation command ship at 8 years old is the most bullshit event in Star Wars and is one of the major reasons i consider Ep.I a trash movie.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Double posting, but to put it to rest. It could be as simple as "I can't believe that worked!". In 5 words she has established that she was previously aware of the trick and there is now context for her having attempted it in lieu of everything else that happens in the movie. Small gestures like this go a long way towards connecting disparate elements (the line above that i made up would have highlighted Han's confirmation of the force being real) into a consistent narrative.

But she did believe it would work. That's why it worked.

I have a hard time imagining that line coming off as natural. Daisy Ridley's performance in that scene already implies that she tries it out of desperation. But it doesn't work out of desperation, it only works from calm confidence. We actually watch her learn a ton about the Force in that scene as it is.

Having her double back on that to drop a one liner would actually damage the consistency of the narrative.

You do realize that there is a male equivalent to it right?


Not that I agree with the people who do think she is one though, I'm just pointing out that it's not something that's only applied to women.

There is a male version, but I wouldn't say it's equivalent. People can't even decide on what it's called. All of it's names are shitty permutations of "Mary Sue" that only make sense if you know that they are shitty permutations of Mary Sue.

 

[Kintaro]

Honestly, Finn was the oddball to me. He says he comes from sanitation, decided to quit during his first battle, needs to learn how to use ship cannons but can somehow handle a lightsaber? How? I just don't get that part. Rey being used to having a quarterstaff and handled her self well in close combat should be much better than him at that IMO.

Finn was taken by the First Order as a child and was formally trained in combat. Just no real world experience.

In truth, neither Finn or Rey should have been able to handle a light saber without any real training. It's a weightless sword made of energy. Both of them would have probably cut off their own limbs.

So...best just to turn off your brain during those scene since the movie asks you to anyway.

 

[MogCakes]

True, the line i made up wouldn't be appropriate. But you can see how such a line would connect many parts of the movie and characterization together and make her actions much more believable.

 

[Adaren]

Honestly, Finn was the oddball to me. He says he comes from sanitation, decided to quit during his first battle, needs to learn how to use ship cannons but can somehow handle a lightsaber? How? I just don't get that part. Rey being used to having a quarterstaff and handled her self well in close combat should be much better than him at that IMO.

Kylo Ren is just a really terrible Sith-thing. Even with his injury, he has at least 10+ years of lightsaber training and these kids have none. Any other Sith would have wrecked them.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Anakin piloting a fighter and singlehandedly destroying the Federation command ship at 8 years old is the most bullshit event in Star Wars and is one of the major reasons i consider Ep.I a trash movie.

How about the Wampa scene from Empire? Luke has no knowledge that you can use the force to move inanimate objects. When he reaches for that Lightsaber he is simply doing it out of desperation. He desperately wants that Light Saber to fly to his hand. Just Like Rey in the Mind Trick scene, first he tries out of desperation, then he calms himself and tries again with confidence.

Is Empire a trash movie?

Kylo Ren is just a really terrible Sith-thing. Even with his injury, he has at least 10+ years of lightsaber training and these kids have none. Anyone other Sith would have wrecked them.

Where do we get information about how long Kylo Ren has been trained? Is that in one of the books? Which one? I've been considering reading one.

 

[Kinokou]

Finn was taken by the First Order as a child and was formally trained in combat. Just no real world experience.

In truth, neither Finn or Rey should have been able to handle a light saber without any real training. It's a weightless sword made of energy. Both of them would have probably cut off their own limbs.

So...best just to turn off your brain during those scene since the movie asks you to anyway.

You are right, I forgot about the life long training, still he seemed overly focused on only handling blasters. It just easier to imagine someone picking up and handling a weapon that in theory works like bashing a stick around when that is what they would usually do, than changing categories.

 

[MogCakes]

How about the Wampa scene from Empire? Luke has no knowledge that you can use the force to move inanimate objects. When he reaches for that Lightsaber he is simply doing it out of desperation. He desperately wants that Light Saber to fly to his hand. Just Like Rey in the Mind Trick scene, first he tries out of desperation, then he calms himself and tries again with confidence.

Is Empire a trash movie?

Luke pulling the lightsaber via force before Yoda training is more on par with Rey pulling JMT via intuition. It is nowhere near the level of bullshit that is Anakin destroying the Federation command center at 8 years old and you should feel ashamed for even entertaining that idea.

 

[Adaren]

Where do we get information about how long Kylo Ren has been trained? Is that in one of the books? Which one? I've been considering reading one.

I was just inferring based on his presumed age, him being sent to train under Luke, then presumably Snoke, and his insistence that Rey needs a teacher (which I took to mean that he himself has had teachers).

 

[B-Dubs]

Kylo Ren is just a really terrible Sith-thing. Even with his injury, he has at least 10+ years of lightsaber training and these kids have none. Any other Sith would have wrecked them.

This is basically the main problem with the movie, if he didn't feel so weak then people wouldn't complain as much about Rey. His being underwhelming makes her look better by comparison, which makes her feel OP. Kylo just needed to feel stronger than he did and this issue all but goes away.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Luke pulling the lightsaber via force before Yoda training is more on par with Rey pulling JMT via intuition. It is nowhere near the level of bullshit that is Anakin destroying the Federation command center at 8 years old and you should feel ashamed for even entertaining that idea.

Feel secure knowing that I didn't entertain the idea that for one second, friend. Simply trying to find a more fitting comparison as a means to free us all from having to acknowledge that The Phantom Menace ever happened.

I was just inferring based on his presumed age, him being sent to train under Luke, then presumably Snoke, and his insistence that Rey needs a teacher (which I took to mean that he himself has had teachers).

I don't think Luke trained him in the Saber at all, but that's just a guess. My supporting evidence is that anyone who could properly train him would have taught him to make a proper Light Saber. For me the barely held together, unstable and violent nature of his Light Saber implies a ton about where his character is.

Ren's overly flashy and spinny fighting style feels more like a self taught style than something that would come from someone who knows what they are doing. It feels like that kid who spent more time learning how to twirl his sticks than actually playing the drums.

 

[zethren]

Luke pulling the lightsaber via force before Yoda training is more on par with Rey pulling JMT via intuition. It is nowhere near the level of bullshit that is Anakin destroying the Federation command center at 8 years old and you should feel ashamed for even entertaining that idea.

Consider that the Force was probably guiding them both in those moments to do these things. The Force has a will and can provide knowledge.

 

[The One and Done™]

From Wookiepedia, the novel apparently states that she intuited that a JMT might be possible based on resisting Kylo's mental probe and influencing his thoughts.

So yeah. If that's true then she just guessed that it was possible / how to do it. No prior knowledge.

And regardless of how she figured it out, the fact that it was jarring for a non-trivial portion of the audience (and that apparently many viewers misinterpreted how she figured it out and whether or not the JMT was common knowledge) probably means it could have been handled better.

Now this I agree with. It certainly could have been handled better. There could have been an earlier scene where she actually attempts to use the Jedi mindtrick half heartedly and it doesn't work or it does and she doesn't realize it. Like when she's rescuing BB8 she could have said, "let the Droid go and get out of here." Tito would have still left but it would have been a subtle hint at her abilities.

Or what about the scene with the guy and the portions. They could have had her get her quarter portion, look down for a second and look back up and go, "You'd like to give me 4 portions" and the guy goes, "what did you say, girl?" Then Rey looks all serious and goes, "You'd like to give me 4 portions!" The guy halts for a second and the audience is like, "oh crap could she...." The guy bends down to pick up what you think are more portions but instead it's a blaster and he goes, "I will give you 4 bullets of you don't scram!"

A scene like this would have given more credibility to the later scene because it would have been assumed that she at least knew of things the Jedi could do and to that point the audience figures she wanted to be Jedi but wasnt.

Just a thought.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

From Wookiepedia, the novel apparently states that she intuited that a JMT might be possible based on resisting Kylo's mental probe and influencing his thoughts.

So yeah. If that's true then she just guessed that it was possible / how to do it. No prior knowledge.

And regardless of how she figured it out, the fact that it was jarring for a non-trivial portion of the audience (and that apparently many viewers misinterpreted how she figured it out and whether or not the JMT was common knowledge) probably means it could have been handled better.

Totally agree.

In the end, we shouldn't have to read the novelization or various other tie-ins to explain things the movie could have just conveyed better.

 

[entremet]

Totally agree.

In the end, we shouldn't have to read the novelization or various other tie-ins to explain things the movie could have just conveyed better.

I think that's the biggest flaw with this movie. It's relying too much on next movies to explain things.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I consider the film to be a B effort. It's good. But audiences are more demanding in many ways. Look at TV shows from the 80s compared to now. It's massive difference in storytelling and character development.

Obviously film is shorter and relies on a more classic three act structure.

But, but even simple comic book movies have people arguing about having more believable villains and characters. Look at the debates that ensued about Black Widow showing vulnerability in Avengers 2?

Were we having these discussions during Rami's Spiderman films? I don't remember them. Audiences and tastes evolves.

This movie doesn't exist in a vacuum and it seems JJ just wanted a simple "remake" of sorts. Again, the movie is still good, but I don't know why people are acting as this movie can't be critiqued for storytelling flaws.

Audiences are more demanding and that's why it's like 95% fresh and smashing records

 

[BlastProcessing]

I think that's the biggest flaw with this movie. It's relying too much on next movies to explain things.

Isn't that par for the course in the first film of a Trilogy?

 

[sphagnum]

This is only tangentially related to the topic, but I liked that the Disney store recognizes who the real owner of Anakin's lightsaber is:

 

[Speely]

On one hand you have folks calling TFA an ANH clone/rehash and on the other people want Rey to have the same path to the Force that Luke did. Not that these are all the same people, mind you. It's just an interesting thing to watch happen.

Rey has a history that most likely involves the Force in at least some respect. We are shown this fairly directly when she grabs Luke's lightsaber. Luke had no idea. Granted, it wasn't spelled out explicitly, but it didn't have to be to get the point across that she has some history there.

She is aware of the legends, the most recent and prominent of which were born a mere 30 years prior.

She is thus willing to accept her power, and as such displays early talent with it in different ways than Luke did. Training served to knock down Luke's barriers of disbelief. Rey has none. She has a natural head start thanks to the legends Luke left behind (and perhaps more,) but Luke had a bit of training. For ballparking something as ambiguous as the Force, I'd call that a wash.

She also had a freaking mind battle with a strong force user. This was the BEST thing that could have happened to her. A pure battle of will? Someone strong in the Force but untrained would conceivably learn a LOT from that battle about how, say, suggestion and domination works. Especially when you win, something that one ostensibly needs no training for since it's a raw, brute force battle. No surprise that her first overt use of the Force involved a Mind Trick.

To say that this wasn't obvious enough to the audience at large is a fair point, but one I disagree with as an audience member who immediately took the above away from Rey's use of JMT. Zero suspension of disbelief required.

Of course this issue doesn't exist in a vacuum. Kylo's weakness is oft-cited as the other factor contributing to "Rey feeling too powerful too quickly." This is a fair viewpoint that I don't share. It's really "what people wanted going in" vs "something different," and I like the different approach. Apples and oranges I suppose. Some folks wanted another all-powerful menace like Vader. Like ANH had. I am glad they went a diff route.

Kylo having his own journey and development is exciting. But even given that, he is already very potent and menacing. The final battle has been talked to death, but he basically took an otherwise lethal shot from a bowcaster, played around with Finn before almost killing him, and then owned Rey enough to attempt his main goal: bringing her to Snoke.

That Rey's belief in herself, years of actual melee combat experience, and the Force allowed her to catch a heinously-wounded, conflicted, frustrated Kylo at his not-best for a few moments and gain the advantage seems perfectly reasonable.

I feel like some people were watching the movie with Mary Sue detectors on and found exactly what they were looking for. This is not to say everyone with this criticism is guilty of such, but the very fact that this trope is such a prevalent talking point these days in general suggests that this probably happened at least a bit.

 

[Dhx]

Audiences are more demanding and that's why it's like 95% fresh and smashing records

This is a perfect example of a strawman. 95% of the posters in this thread would rate the movie a thumbs up, despite the issues with Rey's development.

As well, It's unfortunate that we're stuck with the Mary Sue OP. It's a great post and deserved discussion, but I think most of us agree, the issue is not Rey being a Mary Sue nor do we care about the label. The issue is a whirlwind development, all shoved into the third act because the movie was trying to do too many things at once. While some viewers have forgiven this, it could have been handled better in the opinion of many, without taking the viewer out of the movie. Discussing those issues is the point now at hand.

Who in this thread arguing Rey's characterization as mishandled does not like the movie? Who does not like or want to like Rey as a character? I think you'll find we all feel Daisy nailed it and deserved better writing is all. The character could have been and may still be amazing, but we shouldn't have to wait until the second movie to make that determination.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Isn't that par for the course in the first film of a Trilogy?

In a straight comparison with Luke and the OT, there are multiple small setups that build and are finally paid off by the third film. Unfortunately for Rey, the demands of Force Awakens meant some of her progression time/back story/future setup had to be streamlined or rushed, and partially left to be explained better later in a sequel or novelization.

 

[PopeReal]

To say that Kylo should have been stronger and Rey should have been weaker is just saying that is how you want the story to be.

The way it plays out in the movie fits within the context of the Star Wars universe and the force just as much as if Rey was a weaker Jedi.

 

[Adaren]

I wish they had just skipped the whole JMT thing. Throw Rey in a cell and have her break out using her scavenger knowledge, or have her escape due to fortuitous circumstances created by the battle outside, or have her friends save her.

Not only would that remove a contentious and poorly conveyed part of her development, but it would have made her first intentional usage of the Force be the lightsaber pull in the final battle. The hype of that moment would have been unbelievable.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

This is only tangentially related to the topic, but I liked that the Disney store recognizes who the real owner of Anakin's lightsaber is:

Just bolding this so you can reread what you wrote.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

People here complaining about Rey pulling off a Jedi Mind Trick. Somehow it's less believable than a 10 year old accidently piloting a starship to a space battle then into a command ship and thereby accidently destroying said command ship, all while accidently surviving it.

I'd like to think that we're setting the bar a little higher than The Phantom Menace.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

To say that Kylo should have been stronger and Rey should have been weaker is just saying that is how you want the story to be.

The way it plays out in the movie fits within the context of the Star Wars universe and the force just as much as if Rey was a weaker Jedi.

Is it that people want Kylo to be stronger, or is that the FA arguably portrays him to be stronger or at least better trained for the first 75% of the movie?

 

[BlastProcessing]

In a straight comparison with Luke and the OT, there are multiple small setups that build and are finally paid off by the third film. Unfortunately for Rey, the demands of Force Awakens meant some of her progression time/back story/future setup had to be streamlined or rushed, and partially left to be explained better later in a sequel or novelization.

Luke's A New Hope build up and Rey's are already very similar. Luke really doesn't do small steps in A New Hope.

It's been a primary point in the thread.

 

[Farsi]

Is it that people want Kylo to be stronger, or is that the FA arguably portrays him to be stronger or at least better trained for the first 75% of the movie?

Everything, I think alot of people just want a better villain.

 

[Doogington]

I don't know how much Kylo was trained with a light saber.
Disregarding the prequels, while the light saber was a Jedi weapon, it was not the defining characteristic of being a Jedi.
Yoda didn't train Luke with a light saber. Before the prequels, Yoda was above using weapons and his power came solely from the force. That being the case, it stands to reason that Luke would not focus on light saber training.

My impression is that Kylo is a very strong force user that has never had to deal with any kind of equal. He didn't fight Luke as far as we know. Snoke confirms he hasn't finished his training as well.

Rey is some how naturally strong with the force, something that has been established happening many, many times in Star Wars. Kylo doesn't know how to handle someone that has been able to stand up to him. He was shocked and confused and frightened and angry that Rey resisted him. He was ready to try again but Rey escaped.
As for Rey knowing the force can influence minds... yeah, that could have had a better explanation, but Kylo attempting to influence her mind is sufficient enough.

 

[OnPoint]

One point about the Rey vs Kylo Ren fight that I don't know if it's been made here yet, if it has, sorry, but here goes:

I paid close attention the second time I watched the movie. Look at the choreography, watch Kylo Ren closely. His strikes are measured and non-lethal. He spends the whole first part of the fight before they get to the cliffside (before her comeback) trying to take her down, not take her out.

Why? His mission, as per Snoke, is to bring her in. He's not trying to defeat her in the sense that he's trying to kill her. He's just trying to win the fight, and he's trying to do it non-lethally. I feel like if he wanted to kill her, during that first part of the fight, he could have. He clearly is not trying to do so.

 

[Mix Master]

i hate how the film portayed kylo as a bad ass the whole movie then he gets jobbed by someone with no training, what the fuck JJ?

 

[BouncyFrag]

i hate how the film portayed kylo as a bad ass the whole movie then he gets jobbed by someone with no training, what the fuck JJ?

When he froze that blaster bolt in his early scene and kept it that way until he left was a big 'whoa' moment for me. It made Rey force grabbing the light saber in their duel unbelievable, even with his injuries and endless litney of excuses.

 

[entremet]

Audiences are more demanding and that's why it's like 95% fresh and smashing records

It's a good film, but the fact that people are posting some flaws seems sacrilege to some people.

Isn't that par for the course in the first film of a Trilogy?

Sure.

But that's a big limitation of this trilogy format.

i hate how the film portayed kylo as a bad ass the whole movie then he gets jobbed by someone with no training, what the fuck JJ?

I didn't have a problem with that if you look at the total context.

-He got hit by the most powerful firearm in the series, yet survived it.

-He was bleeding out as a result.

-He was under emotional distress after killing his father.

-He didn't complete his training as told explicitly by Snoke.

-He spend a good amount of time battling Finn.

Whether Rey is a jobber, we really don't know. Her past is a mystery so far.

 

[SixMachine]

One point about the Rey vs Kylo Ren fight that I don't know if it's been made here yet, if it has, sorry, but here goes:

I paid close attention the second time I watched the movie. Look at the choreography, watch Kylo Ren closely. His strikes are measured and non-lethal. He spends the whole first part of the fight before they get to the cliffside (before her comeback) trying to take her down, not take her out.

Why? His mission, as per Snoke, is to bring her in. He's not trying to defeat her in the sense that he's trying to kill her. He's just trying to win the fight, and he's trying to do it non-lethally. I feel like if he wanted to kill her, during that first part of the fight, he could have. He clearly is not trying to do so.

I think it's just an issue of bad choreography, which is actually a problem with a lot of big movies in the west.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mUVY9fLlw

 

[GhaleonEB]

i hate how the film portayed kylo as a bad ass the whole movie then he gets jobbed by someone with no training, what the fuck JJ?

The reasons why that scene plays out the way it does are established pretty well. (Punting to Evilore's post as it put it very well.) He also wasn't trying to kill her (under orders from Snookums to bring her to him) and still had her backpedaling the entire fight, until the end.

I think it's just an issue of bad choreography, which is actually a problem with a lot of big movies in the west.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mUVY9fLlw

The choriography is very solid in the fights, it's just as he said: Kylo is not trying to kill her. He's just driving her back.

He's doing it one-handed.

 

[grumble]

Audiences are more demanding and that's why it's like 95% fresh and smashing records

That is a measure of quality to some degree, but it is also a measure of marketing effort and brand recognition. It isn't a bad movie but these scores and sales can be very misleading.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Nice and well done post! But a gif of the lightsaber pulling between Rey and Ren would have been awesome ! Love her look when it lands in her hand

Ah man, that was such an epic moment. One that I totally figured was going to happen but it still blew me away.

A bit blurry, but there ya go.

I think it's inherent to arguing in such a way as this. People are just summarising the arguments they've seen. We can't expect a poster to go back and pull multiple examples from a thousand post thread. It's just part of arguing in a large thread I think.

Exactly this. The "tone" was a result of seeing the same arguments stated again and again in this thread (and elsewhere online). It gets tiring. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, so I collected some of the most common arguments and attempted to dispel them. Whether I succeeded at that or not, I don't think it's fair to ask that I pull direct quotes from the dozens of places in this massive thread instead of just summarizing like I did.

Also, to the poster who said my post is difficult to respond to because of how it's laid out, I don't see how it'd even be all that difficult to rebut, if that's what someone wants to do. Delete the gifs and pics, number the arguments, and have at it. If someone really has a burning desire to rehash the same shit yet again, there's nothing stopping them.

 

[heliosRAzi]

What I'm basically getting now is that the movie/ people are making explanations and justifications that some people don't buy.

 

[SixMachine]

The choriography is very solid in the fights, it's just as he said: Kylo is not trying to kill her. He's just driving her back.

He's doing it one-handed.

I'm going to sound nitpicky if I were to try to think of what a Sith would do if they want to capture someone, especially since Ren has shown he has all the capable abilities to perform disabling force techniques. And even though he knows she is force sensitive and has quite the aptitude for it, him not mix and matching the abilities within the fight makes me think he is a scrub level fighter, since (I know EU is not canon) mix and matching saber + force techniques is what many force users do. Even if she can resist it, throwing out the option completely is a dumb move. It's like playing Street FIghter, even a basic player knows they can jump a hadouken, but an experienced player is going to make you pay for that jump. Or maybe like playing KOTOR, just because someone got a saving throw once, doesn't mean it won't happen eventually. And even if he used purely lightsaber, I don't see why he wouldn't take off an arm or a leg, like what Vader did to Luke, because we know that those are replaceable. He is meeting her saber to saber, not necessarily going for a disabling blow. It's just me being picky of the fight scene, even though it got what it needed to be done, but it could have displayed it better if it was going for that angle.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm going to sound nitpicky if I were to try to think of what a Sith would do if they want to capture someone, especially since Ren has shown he has all the capable abilities to perform disabling force techniques. And even though he knows she is force sensitive and has quite the aptitude for it, him not mix and matching the abilities within the fight makes me think he is a scrub level fighter, since (I know EU is not canon) mix and matching saber + force techniques is what many force users do. And even if he used purely lightsaber, I don't see why he wouldn't take off an arm or a leg, like what Vader did to Luke, because we know that those are replaceable. He is meeting her saber to saber, not necessarily going for a disabling blow. It's just me being picky of the fight scene, even though it got what it needed to be done, but it could have displayed it better if it was going for that angle.

I took it to be Kylo trying to drive Rey to submission, and if she did not give up, he'd cripple her if needed. That's why he waited until he had her pinned to even say anything. (Also, Kylo Ren is not a Sith, but that's also nitpicking. )

 

[PopeReal]

Everything, I think alot of people just want a better villain.

Better? As in stronger? Because I loved the change of pace we got with Kylo.

If we get Vader 2.0 than we get just another similar thing from a new hope.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Luke's A New Hope build up and Rey's are already very similar. Luke really doesn't do small steps in A New Hope.

It's been a primary point in the thread.

Rey and Luke both start similarly, but Luke simply gets more time to simmer, Rey is forced into almost a hyper-progression in comparison. It's not terrible, it still works for the most part, but myself and others seem to feel it could have been done a bit better.

Also, Rey is simply forced to do more heavy-lifting in the FA than Luke had to in a New Hope, that decision removed some of subtlely in her foreshadowing and build-up...at least for this particular movie. Force Awakens had a lot of things to set-up, and unlike a New Hope, it also had to wash the bad taste of the prequels out of the fans minds, and that ate up some screen-time that could have been used for slower character driven moments.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

If we get Vader 2.0 than we get just another similar thing from a new hope.

Out of all the things they ripped off from A New Hope, a badass villain sure could have been one of them.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Not because those were strong points imo, the structure of that GIF-spam post makes it hard to reply to.

No because it raises a lot of strong points, I do the same thing when I wanna make a bunch of points. Visuals are great for proving the points that you're illustrating.

From Wookiepedia, the novel apparently states that she intuited that a JMT might be possible based on resisting Kylo's mental probe and influencing his thoughts.

So yeah. If that's true then she just guessed that it was possible / how to do it. No prior knowledge.

And regardless of how she figured it out, the fact that it was jarring for a non-trivial portion of the audience (and that apparently many viewers misinterpreted how she figured it out and whether or not the JMT was common knowledge) probably means it could have been handled better.

Pretty sure most audiences understood that point and connected the two together. Who's this "non trivial" portion of the audience?

 

[BlastProcessing]

Sure.

But that's a big limitation of this trilogy format.

Limitations and advantages go hand in hand in storytelling.

 

[sphagnum]

Just bolding this so you can reread what you wrote.

The baton has been passed. It spoke to her!

 

[wenis]

hmmm, just got out the movie. it was, ok. average rating for it. I did enjoy the BB8 scenes. Han dying was legit the dumbest thing ever.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It's a good film, but the fact that people are posting some flaws seems sacrilege to some people..

Ponting out flaws and complaining that Rey is an OP mary sue whilst also making Luke out to be some idiot who bumbled and failed his way through ANH are not the same thing.

Especially frankly half of the arguments ignore things that happened in the movie in order to further the idea that Reyis just some OP Mary Sue.

 

[commish]

The reasons why that scene plays out the way it does are established pretty well. (Punting to Evilore's post as it put it very well.) He also wasn't trying to kill her (under orders from Snookums to bring her to him) and still had her backpedaling the entire fight, until the end.



The choriography is very solid in the fights, it's just as he said: Kylo is not trying to kill her. He's just driving her back.

He's doing it one-handed.

When he is striking at her, if she doesn't block it, she dies. Bit of a stretch to say that he just wanted to drive her back, especially when he could have force pushed her like it did 10 minutes prior. If he just wanted to drag it out, he could have just defended the entire time.

Also don't think doing it one handed means anything. Not to nerd out, but there are multiple lightsaber combat forms, and some have an emphasis on one handed style of fighting (like Dooku's).

Ponting out flaws and complaining that Rey is an OP mary sue whilst also making Luke out to be some idiot who bumbled and failed his way through ANH are not the same thing.

Especially frankly half of the arguments ignore things that happened in the movie in order to further the idea that Reyis just some OP Mary Sue.

I blame the OP, but really, as has been pointed out about 2,000 times in this thread, 99.9999999% of us who have a "problem" with Rey have a problem with her doing all these force and jedi techniques without any training, and against a trained force user to boot. I think all of us have moved beyond the "Rey is a mary sue!" thing a long time ago, if it was ever a thing.