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Saudi Arabia sentences woman convicted of adultery to death by stoning

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Muffdraul

Member
I would dispute that. I mean I don't accept the Hadith at all but that's not anything that was taught to me and I don't think what I believe is a cherry picked watered down version of anything.

Honestly, you take a look at the length and breadth and diversity of Muslim thought among the billions of people and thousands of years and I find it incredibly odd that Saudi Arabia and worse of today are seen as some sort of true version of what Islam really is and everything else is 'watered down'.

It's a very very simple matter to me. The bible and the qur'an and any other "holy text" speak for themselves. You either follow what's written in the book or you don't. If you're being taught by people who aren't showing you everything in the book, then you're following a watered down version. Ignoring an entire religious document that's meant to be integral to its religion is just a macro version of cherry picking.
 

Azih

Member
It's a very very simple matter to me. The bible and the qur'an and any other "holy text" speak for themselves. You either follow what's written in the book or you don't. If you're being taught by people who aren't showing you everything in the book, then you're following a watered down version. Ignoring an entire religious document is just a macro version of cherry picking.

I follow the Quran. The Quran makes no mention of the Hadith. And I've read the Quran myself (translations). How you intepret the Quran and how I interpret the Quran are obviously not the same but that's true for everyone who's read the thing. So is your understanding of it the real Quran or is mine? Humans gonna human.
 

anaron

Member
If you look around you, you will see that it's the whole world which is busy working its way toward a new dark ages, nowaday.

We are collectively going mad, and it won't get better soon.
we're actually getting better despite these examples of atrocities
 
The "intent" of Shariah is to make things easy, if you can believe that. The Judges are supposed to err on side of caution, and when faced with a choice, always take the one that causes least hardship and pain. Shariah itself is not God's Laws. It's a legal framework created by jurists whose opinions were shaped by the times they were living in. It was never meant to be a static codex of law. The Jurists always used to re-interpret the "law" and religious meaning, starting from 6th century. They stopped around 9th century when they felt they had answer to every question (of their time). The Apostasy law for example, was shaped by the Muslims living during the time of Mongols. Ibn Taymiyyah was instrumental in organizing the Muslims to fight the Mongols, who nominally accepted Islam, by declaring them apostates.

The whole thing about women's testimony being equal to half of men; It's supposedly only applicable in business dealings like corporate finance. Even then, I've read that a Judge has the discretionary power to accept testimony from only one woman if he desires. I totally reject that contrived reasoning Kinitari posted about some lady talking about menstruation and mental issues. If that was the case, woman's testimony would never be accepted as equal to that of men in every condition. This is demonstrably false. The quickest example comes to mind is the Law of Ri'an, where a man's 4 testiomonies are equal to or negated by the woman's 4 testimonies. Regardless, the point still stands that in subset of civil law dealing with business and finance, two women may be required to provide testimony opposed to one man. Some conservative schools have extended this two witness rule across the entire legal system. One of the reasonings I've heard is that in a traditionally men dominated society where business and finance was overwhelmingly conducted by merchant class of men, women were not as prevalent in business dealings around 7th century arabia. That makes more sense than ridiculous claims about psychological conditions.

Similarly in the case of "stoning", the judge has the discretion to substitute that punishment, if it ever comes to that, with something else. I mention "if it ever comes to that", because 4 witnesses are absolutely required to see the act happen. And by the "act", I mean they need to witness the penetration itself. Either that or the person needs to confess. Even after confession, they should be tried to dissuade, since Muhammad himself tried to dissuade a lady 3 times after she said she committed adultery. Because of these conditions, there was only one reported stoning carried out in the 800 year history of Ottoman Empire Caliphate. On top of that, Muslims are told to "cover" the sins of others and not make them public, lest Allah makes their sins public.

.
 

ElFly

Member
The "intent" of Shariah is to make things easy, if you can believe that. The Judges are supposed to err on side of caution, and when faced with a choice, always take the one that causes least hardship and pain. Shariah itself is not God's Laws. It's a legal framework created by jurists whose opinions were shaped by the times they were living in. It was never meant to be a static codex of law. The Jurists always used to re-interpret the "law" and religious meaning, starting from 6th century. They stopped around 9th century when they felt they had answer to every question (of their time). The Apostasy law for example, was shaped by the Muslims living during the time of Mongols. Ibn Taymiyyah was instrumental in organizing the Muslims to fight the Mongols, who nominally accepted Islam, by declaring them apostates.

The whole thing about women's testimony being equal to half of men; It's supposedly only applicable in business dealings like corporate finance. Even then, I've read that a Judge has the discretionary power to accept testimony from only one woman if he desires. Regardless, the point still stands that in subset of civil law dealing with business and finance, two women may be required to provide testimony opposed to one man. Some conservative schools have extended this two witness rule across the entire legal system. One of the reasonings I've heard is that in a traditionally men dominated society where business and finance was overwhelmingly conducted by merchant class of men, women were not as prevalent in business dealings around 7th century arabia. That makes more sense than ridiculous claims about psychological conditions.

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that several countries interpret Sharia to give women half the testimony of a man, outside of business dealings; you can argue that Saudi Arabia is a extreme example of conservatism, but you will not convince me that several other countries with differing interpretations of Islam are also wrong on how they understand Sharia. In practice, Sharia cuts women's testimony in half beyond whatever intent the law originally had. Whether scholars disagree with their interpretation is meaningless if it is still the law in currently existing countries.

This is probably something that belonged in that ill fated 'should Islam be criticized' cause here it will be overshadowed by the whole stoning issue, but certainly Islam should take a hard look at Sharia and probably back down from the most problematic issues.
 
That's all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that several countries interpret Sharia to give women half the testimony of a man, outside of business dealings; you can argue that Saudi Arabia is a extreme example of conservatism, but you will not convince me that several other countries with differing interpretations of Islam are also wrong on how they understand Sharia. In practice, Sharia cuts women's testimony in half beyond whatever intent the law originally had. Whether scholars disagree with their interpretation is meaningless if it is still the law in currently existing countries.

This is probably something that belonged in that ill fated 'should Islam be criticized' cause here it will be overshadowed by the whole stoning issue, but certainly Islam should take a hard look at Sharia and probably back down from the most problematic issues.

It's a tad related to your point (granted I'm not linking it to directly answer it) but rather hope it can bring you another perspective from the religious scholar, Reza Aslan, on an interview from CNN:

https://youtu.be/PzusSqcotDw?t=202

I recommend watching the full interview, but yeah, tell me what you think if you get round to watching it.
 

nynt9

Member
It's a tad related to your point (granted I'm not linking it to directly answer it) but rather hope it can bring you another perspective from the religious scholar, Reza Aslan, on an interview from CNN:

https://youtu.be/PzusSqcotDw?t=202

I recommend watching the full interview, but yeah, tell me what you think if you get round to watching it.

Reza Aslan is at best a well intentioned but misguided apologist and at worst a flat out liar. I would not recommend what he says as a majority of what he says is provably false.
 

NoWayOut

Member
Why aren't countries that practice and enforce this version of Sharia law targeted the same way rebel groups/XYZ Islamist groups are in other ME+African countries?

Because... "The Spice
(oil)
must flow"

s63nicvrmdpdva5rq5wp.jpg
 

Azih

Member
Reza Aslan is at best a well intentioned but misguided apologist and at worst a flat out liar. I would not recommend what he says as a majority of what he says is provably false.

That's a drive by accusation. I haven't seen anything from Aslan that I've disagreed with. I mean other then him not being a Quran literalist.
 

Azih

Member
It's not a drive by accusation. Here's an example, addressing that video that was posted:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...a-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/

I can personally verify what he says about Turkey is 100% false.

Edit: It was a drive by accusation until your follow up post

On topic what did he say about Turkey? The article is kinda nuts in a lot of ways. On Maher's show Aslan mentioned Indonesia only. And the article notes that Indonesia has regressed recently. There's no contradiction there that I can see. The article seems to have taken Aslan as some sort of spring board to talk about apologists in general and not Aslan in specific.

And the 'technically true, but actually false' section on the Muslim world electing female leaders is completely bonkers. If the US elects Hilary Clinton then will that be discounted by these people as well by making some sort of tortured streched out point that "Well she only got elected because her husband was President first so it doesn't count"? That's the kind of leaps of logic the article is employing to try and deflect a fact. Bhutto was an incredibly accomplished and talented firebrand of a politician and the article is insulting her talent and effort in trying to marginalize what she accomplished (Full disclaimer I am from Pakistan but also no fan of Bhutto but that's neither here nor there).

And the FGM section shows that the article writers kinda have an agenda of their own. A better check is:
http://www.politifact.com/punditfac.../fact-checking-reza-aslans-retort-bill-maher/

Where it was rated as Mostly True.

Again the article seems to be thinking that Aslan was defending all of Islam everywhere in every way when what Aslan was doing was calling for nuance. Which Maher of course has none of.

Edit: Lastly even if Aslan's appearance on Maher was full of holes (which honestly it really wasn't) that has no relation on what he says on Kralamoonard's posted video is of substance or not. Attack the message, not the person.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
That's a hefty accusation, but I'm interested nevertheless, to why you think that?

[EDIT] Just seen post above. Will read.
I have to agree with nynt9 about Turkey - that country is where it is today because of certain historical events which allowed (or shall I say forced) their society to go secular. And it was quite efficient at that.

Giving Turkey as an example of a modern Muslim country is misleading.

ps: thank you for your in-depth account about SA, btw. I had some clue about the situation there, but not that detailed.
 

nynt9

Member
What did he say about Turkey? The article is kinda nuts in a lot of ways. On Maher's show Aslan mentioned Indonesia only. And the article notes that Indonesia has regressed recently. There's no contradiction there that I can see.

And the 'technically true, but actually false' section on the Muslim world electing female leaders is completely bonkers. If the US elects Hilary Clinton then will that be discounted by these people as well by making some sort of tortured streched out point that "Well she only got elected because her husband was President first so it doesn't counnt"? Bhutto was an incredibly accomplished and talented firebrand of a politician and the article is insulting to her talent and effort in trying to marginalize what she accomplished (Full disclaimer I am from Pakistan but also no fan of Bhutto but that's neither here nor there).

And the FGM section shows that the article writers kinda have an agenda of their own. A better check is:
http://www.politifact.com/punditfac.../fact-checking-reza-aslans-retort-bill-maher/

Where it was rated as Mostly True.

You can look up his writings on Turkey, I'm not going to compile the man's bibliography for you, but he has also tweeted an article from Fethullah Gulen about democracy, which, knowing about Turkish politics, is just ridiculous, Gulen is a corrupt, extremist leader. Also, Turkey did elect a female PM decades ago, but that was before the religious fundamentalist parties took over the country and started stifling progress. It was a result of the forced secularization that some of the public nowadays calls "fascism", because they want religious laws and some even want Sharia. Turkey was held up as an example of a successful modern muslim nation by western media, but that was covering up a lot of things that Erdogan did that only recently the west is starting to realize, partly due to the fact that Erdogan arrested everyone who spoke up against him. He is not a moderate leader proving modern islam can work as Aslan claims in an article. He is a corrupt, totalitarian asshole.

There are others who have spoken up against Aslan, including Salon , but I'm really not interested in getting into a debate on Aslan's credibility, considering he himself misrepresents his own credentials (as someone getting a PhD, this matters to me).

I do not think Aslan is a full on liar personally, but give that he is an intelligent scholar who studies these subjects in great depth, I do wonder why he chooses to frame certain facts in certain ways. What Fox news did to him was extremely ignorant (shocking that Fox news is ignorant) but he has been put on a pedestal since and I believe he apologizes for a lot of ugly truths by casting them in certain lights that appear positive to a more casual observer.
 
I too fell for that, but it turns out it was a dude, after all.
Ha.
Ok, so how did we get to the present state where that foreign worker has been sentenced to stoning in SA?
We got to the present state because Saudi Arabia is a country of massive contradictions and hypocrisy. You will never hear about Royalty facing any crime or punishment, despite hearing about underground clubs, drug dens and prostitution rings they are said to be involved in. One of the Wikileaks mentioned this very fact. They use draconian laws to hold power over their citizenry, especially women, which they derive from the Clerical establishment. Any form of protest is seen as a threat to the ruling class.

Keep in mind that even though the Saud family is corrupt and hypocritical, they are also the bulwark against more radical voices in the country. In a way, they are your friends. Trsy me, you dont want to deal with real Saudi conservatives. The Sauds, especially under Abdullah, wrested lot of power from the Clerics. Abdullah even finally allowed women to run for office which took effect this year. This week over 900 women are contesting municipal elections in KSA. They have a long way to go, but they will get there.
 

Kabouter

Member
Oh, it's worse. But I very much doubt that means the bible will replace US law, much like Sharia Law won't ever replace UK's.

Of course, I agree that neither will happen, but that doesn't mean there can't be negative repercussions of the presence of such attitudes amongst large portions of the populace. I've always been quite uneasy about the dominance of the detestable SGP in the municipality where I'm from. It's why I'm not a big fan of those who take their politics directly from holy books.
 

Azih

Member
nynt9: I'm not really interested in getting into a blow by blow on Aslan's entire history of published works and public comments either but you're the one who brought it up (and the article you posted was a pretty poor attack). Let's agree to stop attacking or defending the guy and just go by the video itself. Let's forget the man and concentrate on the message. Do you have an an issue with what he said in there?
 
I have to agree with nynt9 about Turkey - that country is where it is today because of certain historical events which allowed (or shall I say forced) their society to go secular. And it was quite efficient at that.

Giving Turkey as an example of a modern Muslim country is misleading.

ps: thank you for your in-depth account about SA, btw. I had some clue about the situation there, but not that detailed.

No problem! I'm glad to see you found it interesting; I'm glad to answer any further questions! :D
 

dream

Member
I'm not quite sure if this belongs here, but I just read this and the inhumanity is absolutely astounding.

Ashraf Fayadh, a poet recently sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia by beheading, relayed a simple but grim message to the world from his prison cell.

"I'm an artist and I want my freedom," Fayadh, 35, said over the telephone last week as he spoke with colleagues from the art collective Edge of Arabia, who have been advocating for his release along with a number of other artistic and human rights groups.

Fayadh is charged with blasphemy for penning a book of love poems allegedly containing atheistic writings and uttering religiously blasphemous comments in an Abha café in 2013.

Although women registered to vote for the first time in Saudi municipal elections this year, they are forbidden from venturing into public without male chaperones and are forced to conceal much of their bodies. This sort of ideology bleeds over into the art world.

Earlier this year, Basmah Felemban, a Saudi mixed media installation artist, was censored by the ministry before an art show for referencing a verse from the Quran in an installation.


"[I was told] the Qur'an shouldn't be in artwork," explained Felemban, 22, who's now based in London and working with British architects to bring Saudi art into the Jeddah public transport system.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/sau...iven-to-poet-asher-fayadh?utm_source=vicefbca
 

This is some crazy shit, but I found this one line in particular to be especially weird.

"Adulterers who were convicted on the basis of their own confession may go free if they wriggle out of their pit during execution".

That's just soo... what? It's almost like they're trying to make a game out of it.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
The "intent" of Shariah is to make things easy, if you can believe that. The Judges are supposed to err on side of caution, and when faced with a choice, always take the one that causes least hardship and pain. Shariah itself is not God's Laws. It's a legal framework created by jurists whose opinions were shaped by the times they were living in. It was never meant to be a static codex of law. The Jurists always used to re-interpret the "law" and religious meaning, starting from 6th century. They stopped around 9th century when they felt they had answer to every question (of their time). The Apostasy law for example, was shaped by the Muslims living during the time of Mongols. Ibn Taymiyyah was instrumental in organizing the Muslims to fight the Mongols, who nominally accepted Islam, by declaring them apostates.

The whole thing about women's testimony being equal to half of men; It's supposedly only applicable in business dealings like corporate finance. Even then, I've read that a Judge has the discretionary power to accept testimony from only one woman if he desires. I totally reject that contrived reasoning Kinitari posted about some lady talking about menstruation and mental issues. If that was the case, woman's testimony would never be accepted as equal to that of men in every condition. This is demonstrably false. The quickest example comes to mind is the Law of Ri'an, where a man's 4 testiomonies are equal to or negated by the woman's 4 testimonies. Regardless, the point still stands that in subset of civil law dealing with business and finance, two women may be required to provide testimony opposed to one man. Some conservative schools have extended this two witness rule across the entire legal system. One of the reasonings I've heard is that in a traditionally men dominated society where business and finance was overwhelmingly conducted by merchant class of men, women were not as prevalent in business dealings around 7th century arabia. That makes more sense than ridiculous claims about psychological conditions.

Similarly in the case of "stoning", the judge has the discretion to substitute that punishment, if it ever comes to that, with something else. I mention "if it ever comes to that", because 4 witnesses are absolutely required to see the act happen. And by the "act", I mean they need to witness the penetration itself. Either that or the person needs to confess. Even after confession, they should be tried to dissuade, since Muhammad himself tried to dissuade a lady 3 times after she said she committed adultery. Because of these conditions, there was only one reported stoning carried out in the 800 year history of Ottoman Empire Caliphate. On top of that, Muslims are told to "cover" the sins of others and not make them public, lest Allah makes their sins public.

It's impossible to gauge tone from what you wrote, but logically it looks like you're agreeing that Sharia Law is a medieval abhorrence that has no place anywhere in the 21st century.
 

Azih

Member
It's impossible to gauge tone from what you wrote, but logically it looks like you're agreeing that Sharia Law is a medieval abhorrence that has no place anywhere in the 21st century.

The way it's practiced in Saudi Arabia? Absolutely.
 

MrChom

Member
These are the sort of things that only reinforce my view that we should be refusing to partner with nations like this, and actively seeking out ways to not accept trade with them until such time as they have what could be called a passing grade for a human rights record...and that should be measured against the European declaration of human rights, or the UK Human Rights Act (1998).

As far as I'm concerned if you're intentionally killing your own citizens (excluding those where they present an active danger to other members of the public) then you have forfeit your right to be called "civilised". Now that's not just KSA, but they're certainly near the top of that very unpleasant list.
 

epmode

Member
This is some crazy shit, but I found this one line in particular to be especially weird.

"Adulterers who were convicted on the basis of their own confession may go free if they wriggle out of their pit during execution".

That's just soo... what? It's almost like they're trying to make a game out of it.

Also note that women are buried up to their chest while men are only buried up to their waist.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
The way it's practiced in Saudi Arabia? Absolutely.

Can you point to where it's practiced in a way that doesn't literally diminish the value of women, Christians and atheists? Or where it is practiced that doesn't treat apostasy as a grave offense? Or where it doesn't value the testimony of a few male Muslims over actual evidence?
 

Disxo

Member
This is some crazy shit, but I found this one line in particular to be especially weird.

"Adulterers who were convicted on the basis of their own confession may go free if they wriggle out of their pit during execution".

That's just soo... what? It's almost like they're trying to make a game out of it.

If you look closely, woman have less chances of escaping if that is the case.

Disgusting.
 

Azih

Member
Do you think there's an interpretation of sharia that should applied then? If so what interpretation, based on what text and where?
Edit: Response is to Stinkles as well.

Sharia just means Islamic Law and what that means differs wildly from place to place.

I don't think the way Sharia is practiced in any country today is anything that I would want to live under but the crazy thing is that versions of Sharia that are completely compatible with modern Western legal thought could have been had but keep getting strangled in the crib by knee jerk SHARIA=MUSLIM=SAUDI ARABIA=TERRORISM=BAD KILL IT WITH FIRE level thought.

What I'm talking about is the attempts to get 'Sharia' implemented as alternative dispute resolution mechanisms in Western countries. If ever done these things would have to be completely open and transparent about what their rulings would be based on and why and for what reason and it would have to not contradict the charters and constitutions of the country they are implemented in. And they would scrutinized to hell and back to boot. It would by its very nature have to be a version of Sharia compliant with current Western mores and would be the single best thing to happen to the evolution of Sharia for hundreds of years. I mean I wouldn't use it or want anyone in my family to use the optional system but the sheer immense positive potential of something like this is just freaking obvious. And remember it would be optional.

But all attempts to implement something like this gets shut down amidst cries of SHARIA=BAD! SHARIA=BAD! THEY"RE TRYING TO BEHEAD/STONE TURN US ALL INTO MOOSELIMS. WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE SHEEP LIKE MUSLIM WOMEN WHO OBVIOUSLY CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES WE MUST SAVE THEM FROM THEIR PIECES OF CLOTH.

And I'm all like "Fuck, another avenue to start talking about and dealing with important issues just killed by partisan screeching"
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
I swear these threads and the 5 or so Islam defenders here push me towards Mahr's position with each post.

It's the same kind of mind-bending exercise that allows Christians to claim that modern society is based on Judeo-Christian values: arguing that the obvious bullshit is not just obvious plain bullshit, but actually relativized by "complex" historical context and practice. Conversely, some vague kernel of wisdom—so vague that is in fact found in every culture, like the golden rule—found in the doctrines is inflated in meaning and responsible for all the good in the world.
 

nynt9

Member
Edit: Response is to Stinkles as well.

Sharia just means Islamic Law and what that means differs wildly from place to place.

I don't think the way Sharia is practiced in any country today is anything that I would want to live under but the crazy thing is that versions of Sharia that are completely compatible with modern Western legal thought could have been had but keep getting strangled in the crib by knee jerk SHARIA=MUSLIM=SAUDI ARABIA=TERRORISM=BAD KILL IT WITH FIRE level thought.

What I'm talking about is the attempts to get 'Sharia' implemented as alternative dispute resolution mechanisms in Western countries. If ever done these things would have to be completely open and transparent about what their rulings would be based on and why and for what reason and it would have to not contradict the charters and constitutions of the country they are implemented in. And they would scrutinized to hell and back to boot. It would by its very nature have to be a version of Sharia compliant with current Western mores and would be the single best thing to happen to the evolution of Sharia for hundreds of years. I mean I wouldn't use it or want anyone in my family to use the optional system but the sheer immense positive potential of something like this is just freaking obvious. And remember it would be optional.

But all attempts to implement something like this gets shut down amidst cries of SHARIA=BAD! SHARIA=BAD! THEY"RE TRYING TO BEHEAD/STONE TURN US ALL INTO MOOSELIMS. WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE SHEEP LIKE MUSLIM WOMEN WHO OBVIOUSLY CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES WE MUST SAVE THEM FROM THEIR PIECES OF CLOTH.

And I'm all like "Fuck, another avenue to start talking about and dealing with important issues just killed by partisan screeching"

But I don't understand the necessity or desire for this system or why or how it would work and what principles it would be based on? You can't convict someone of a crime unless it's a crime also according to the laws of the country you're in, and you can't acquit someone of it if it's a crime in the laws of the country. This would just be an extralegal system that hurts the actual legal system, and you can't force it on someone so it has no effect. And it would skirt too closely to discrimination.
 

Azih

Member
LOL

I swear these threads and the 5 or so Islam defenders here push me towards Mahr's position with each post.

Seriously. If you have a problem with what I'm saying just engage instead of drive by shitting on me. Most of the damn time people hear something completely different from what I'm actually saying.

For God's sake. I'm AGREEING with you that the Saudi Arabian legal system is a shitshow and a disgrace.
 
Edit: Response is to Stinkles as well.

Sharia just means Islamic Law and what that means differs wildly from place to place.

Islamic law has no place in Western society. Period.

Is there some sort of gradient between moderate and extremist? Because right now those are the only two classifications I hear being used and it would seem the only difference is that one interpretation is more violent and sexist. If one is a textural literalist that thinks Islamic law has a place in the modern world, even if it's the non violent interpretation, I don't consider them to be "moderate"

The amount of times a thread like this spits out a "no true scotsman" falacy is ridiculous as well.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Edit: Response is to Stinkles as well.

Sharia just means Islamic Law and what that means differs wildly from place to place.

I don't think the way Sharia is practiced in any country today is anything that I would want to live under but the crazy thing is that versions of Sharia that are completely compatible with modern Western legal thought could have been had but keep getting strangled in the crib by knee jerk SHARIA=MUSLIM=SAUDI ARABIA=TERRORISM=BAD KILL IT WITH FIRE level thought.

What I'm talking about is the attempts to get 'Sharia' implemented as alternative dispute resolution mechanisms in Western countries. If ever done these things would have to be completely open and transparent about what their rulings would be based on and why and for what reason and it would have to not contradict the charters and constitutions of the country they are implemented in. And they would scrutinized to hell and back to boot. It would by its very nature have to be a version of Sharia compliant with current Western mores and would be the single best thing to happen to the evolution of Sharia for hundreds of years. I mean I wouldn't use it or want anyone in my family to use the optional system but the sheer immense positive potential of something like this is just freaking obvious. And remember it would be optional.

But all attempts to implement something like this gets shut down amidst cries of SHARIA=BAD! SHARIA=BAD! THEY"RE TRYING TO BEHEAD/STONE TURN US ALL INTO MOOSELIMS. WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE SHEEP LIKE MUSLIM WOMEN WHO OBVIOUSLY CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES WE MUST SAVE THEM FROM THEIR PIECES OF CLOTH.

And I'm all like "Fuck, another avenue to start talking about and dealing with important issues just killed by partisan screeching"


This thread is about a specific problem with Sharia law and a problem that occurs in at least four countries. It's hardly an anti-Muslim derail. Should we pretend these things aren't happening so that nice people don't think they're being generalized against?


And we have a legal system so that idiotic communities DONT try to use scripture and shitty old men to resolve disputes. There's no good version of it.
 

Azih

Member
Should we pretend these things aren't happening so that nice people don't think they're being generalized against?
Where did I say we should pretend things aren't happening?

I just pointed out one avenue that versions of Sharia compliant with Western constitutions could have been had already and the specious reasoning that prevented it from happening. Specious reasoning that is being displayed AS WE SPEAK by FenderPutty.
 
I just pointed out one avenue that versions of Sharia compliant with Western constitutions could have been had already and the specious reasoning that prevented it from happening.

You've done no such thing.

Laws of the land should be secular. I can't stand when Christians try and legislate their morality either.
 

Future

Member
Edit: Response is to Stinkles as well.

Sharia just means Islamic Law and what that means differs wildly from place to place.

I don't think the way Sharia is practiced in any country today is anything that I would want to live under but the crazy thing is that versions of Sharia that are completely compatible with modern Western legal thought could have been had but keep getting strangled in the crib by knee jerk SHARIA=MUSLIM=SAUDI ARABIA=TERRORISM=BAD KILL IT WITH FIRE level thought.

What I'm talking about is the attempts to get 'Sharia' implemented as alternative dispute resolution mechanisms in Western countries. If ever done these things would have to be completely open and transparent about what their rulings would be based on and why and for what reason and it would have to not contradict the charters and constitutions of the country they are implemented in. And they would scrutinized to hell and back to boot. It would by its very nature have to be a version of Sharia compliant with current Western mores and would be the single best thing to happen to the evolution of Sharia for hundreds of years. I mean I wouldn't use it or want anyone in my family to use the optional system but the sheer immense positive potential of something like this is just freaking obvious. And remember it would be optional.

But all attempts to implement something like this gets shut down amidst cries of SHARIA=BAD! SHARIA=BAD! THEY"RE TRYING TO BEHEAD/STONE TURN US ALL INTO MOOSELIMS. WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE SHEEP LIKE MUSLIM WOMEN WHO OBVIOUSLY CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES WE MUST SAVE THEM FROM THEIR PIECES OF CLOTH.

And I'm all like "Fuck, another avenue to start talking about and dealing with important issues just killed by partisan screeching"

I'm still confused on the bolded. What version of Sharia law is this? And you are saying its western society that prevents better versions from being implemented??
 
LOL

I swear these threads and the 5 or so Islam defenders here push me towards Mahr's position with each post.
I mean, you've already made up your mind judging by this post. So why should we be "discussing" anything with you? If your position is islam sux, shariah sux, backward bs, u all apologist islamo sympathizers!!! Then there is no point in engaging with Azih or anyone else for that matter.
 
I mean, you've already made up your mind judging by this post. So why should we be "discussing" anything with you? If your position is islam sux, shariah sux, backward bs, u all apologist islamo sympathizers!!! Then there is no point in engaging with Azih or anyone else for that matter.

Flip this. If all you're going to do is pretend Islam is perfect and hand-wave off more extreme interpretations why should anyone listen to the "moderate".
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Flip this. If all you're going to do is pretend Islam is perfect and hand-wave off more extreme interpretations why should anyone listen to the "moderate".
I don't think they're pretending that Islam is perfect, I feel it's something different. A Muslim thinking that the Islam in the Quran is not "perfect" is like a Muslim saying God doesn't exist
 
I don't think they're pretending that Islam is perfect, I feel it's something different. A Muslim thinking that the Islam in the Quran is not "perfect" is like a Muslim saying God doesn't exist

This isn't comforting. In fact, it's this exact stance that causes the "no true Scotsman" fallacy that appears in every one of these threads.
 
Flip this. If all you're going to do is pretend Islam is perfect and hand-wave off more extreme interpretations why should anyone listen to the "moderate".
Saying the extreme interpretations of the legal system and the book itself is an aberration in the wider, classical Islamic history is not hand-waving. If your contention is that we do no acknowledge that extreme interpretations exist, then you got a point. But that's not the case. Again if you dont want to listen to "moderate" view of Islam then you're not really here to discuss anything. Just be on your way and cheer Bill Mahr's videos. No one is stopping you, really.
 
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