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[DeaviL]

I am far beyond thinking there is any saving these poor souls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivity

 

[MJLord]

I am far beyond thinking there is any saving these poor souls.

What's the point in you ever talking about it then? You've clearly made your mind up already.

 

[CrunchyB]

In most other workplaces wearing that shirt would lead to complaints, a write up, and you being sent home.

In America, sure. But ESA is an European institute and I think some people underestimate how fundamentally different Europe can be, compared to the USA. At the very least we're far less homogenized.

For instance, I still don't understand what Nipplegate was all about. The outrage at some tacky shirt (and the apology afterwards) reminds me of that particular highlight in the history of mankind.

 

[GameGuru59]

Perks like...follow this through

having a relaxed dress code after you land on the comet? US soldiers get to smoke on the battlefield, even though it technically makes them less effective. Its simply one of the things you get to do when you put your life on the line for our country.

 

[sk3]

Clearly he should have worn khakis and an ill-fitting collared shirt. The bland, soul-less uniform of business casual corporations worldwide.

 

[Griss]

I mean... have you worked in an office? Having to think about how you look when you're being presented in front of other people is one of the most basic skills required for basically every office job. If you ever have to do presentations in big meetings, or get photographed for company materials, or get interviewed for trade publications, or go onsite for clients, all of these things involve, first and foremost, thinking about how you are presenting yourself and making sure it represents your team, your company, and your industry in a good light.

Let's be honest though, there are tons of people who simply don't get this at all. Ever worked with computer programmers? Artists? Musicians? Put a lot of these people in a situation where they have to appear in front of a crowd or on TV and what to wear in order to be appropriate just won't be high in their list of things to think about, if it appears at all. And the ESA seems like it's not your typical office.

I had this problem when a fellow programmer turned up for a presentation in full cowboy outfit because he was taking his girlfriend out to some event afterwards. The rest of us were in suits. The idea that it would be an issue just never entered his head whatsoever, even after he showed up and saw us. Plenty of creative types are like that, and just looking at this guy he seems that way.

What about tatoos? I have a good friend with a tattoo of a naked woman on one forearm and a dead rotting nun on the other. I hate those tattoos, but would anything this guy ever achieved be shouted down if he didn't cover his arms because when he was young he was heavy into the punk scene? I don't know, I'm not comfortable judging people with so little info, or turning a minor infraction into something more important than a major achievement. Totally rubs me the wrong way.

Guy shouldn't have worn the shirt. Sure. The shirt is shit anyway. Absolutely. Women should be welcome in the STEM field and we need more of them. Agree 100% with all of those things. But 'this was a sexist act that needed apologising for' is way too much, imo. I'm more uncomfortable with the language he used describing the mission than the shirt, actually.

 

[entremet]

In America, sure. But ESA is an European institute and I think some people underestimate how fundamentally different Europe can be, compared to the USA. At the very least we're far less homogenized.

For instance, I still don't understand what Nipplegate was all about. The outrage at some tacky shirt (and the apology afterwards) reminds me of that particular highlight in the history of mankind.

This is a good point actually.

I still think the shirt was in poor form for a telecast. But everyone is reading from their personal lenses without taking cultural relativism into effect. American cultural mores, even progressive ones may not be followed by every country under the sun!

 

[adamsappel]

Or everyone else could be greatful for his efforts and give him a break. And before you ask, I am arguing that when you do good shit, you should be entitled to certain breaks from society that are within reason. Nobody criticizes Mia Hamm (was that her name?) for taking her shirt off and objectifying women when she won a soccer game.

It was Brandy Chastain, and she was doing exactly what male soccer players do when they score winning goals. But because she's a woman, it's controversial.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Lots of people benefit society but they don't go out in public in shirts that look like they were bought from a 15-year-old's yard sale after he realized that maybe this was the reason his first kiss was his cousin.

You're making fun of the amazing individual who contributed greatly to landing a probe on a comet, and already apologized for any offence his shirt caused.... Why?

 

[Valhelm]

That shirt is incredibly trashy. Obviously, no offense was intended, but that doesn't mean it's not a gross shirt.

 

[Ville Pukema]

I mean... have you worked in an office? Having to think about how you look when you're being presented in front of other people is one of the most basic skills required for basically every office job. If you ever have to do presentations in big meetings, or get photographed for company materials, or get interviewed for trade publications, or go onsite for clients, all of these things involve, first and foremost, thinking about how you are presenting yourself and making sure it represents your team, your company, and your industry in a good light.

I can get that, and I get that shirt is not politically correct. But its still not fair to say its okey to go after him because of it and only because of it. But how about hes team members, have they said him that "dude wearing those shirts is not cool." Shouldn't we be naming and shaming them also and not pinpoint this whole issue on him?

 

[GameGuru59]

It was Brandy Chastain, and she was doing exactly what male soccer players do when they score winning goals. But because she's a woman, it's controversial.

So if it were shirtless men on this guy's tee, would it have been less offensive, or not at all?


(The answer is yes)

 

[meijiko]

Looking at this whole situation, I've determined 3 things:

1. The shirt is tacky. Bad choice to wear on camera, but w/e.
2. The reaction to the shirt was a bit much. I understand in context it can be kind of offensive, and I won't dismiss their response to it, but I feel bad for the guy. I honestly don't think he deserved that sort of reaction at all, especially not when this should be a highlight in his life.
3. The reaction to the reaction was completely disgusting and as a woman makes me terrified to ever have an opinion about sexism in a public, unmoderated space.

 

[Stet]

You're making fun of the amazing individual who contributed greatly to landing a probe on a comet, and already apologized for any offence his shirt caused.... Why?

Because it's funny as hell. Dude can land a probe on a comet but can't land himself in big boy clothing.

 

[Opto]

I wonder what the people who are pro-shirt would say if a woman appeared in the same venue with #KillAllMen plastered around it.

 

[Kinitari]

I wonder what the people who are pro-shirt would say if a woman appeared in the same venue with #KillAllMen plastered around it.

I... Don't know if that's equivalent. The shirt in and of itself is, at the very least arguably inoffensive in the right context. Kill all men is not.

 

[AppleMIX]

I wonder what the people who are pro-shirt would say if a woman appeared in the same venue with #KillAllMen plastered around it.

Even if they were similar I would wouldn't care at all.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

I wonder what the people who are pro-shirt would say if a woman appeared in the same venue with #KillAllMen plastered around it.

Probably the same thing if the dude had a #KillAllWomen shirt on.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I wonder what the people who are pro-shirt would say if a woman appeared in the same venue with #KillAllMen plastered around it.

Well this is a bizarre tangent.

 

[DarkFlow]

I wonder what the people who are pro-shirt would say if a woman appeared in the same venue with #KillAllMen plastered around it.

Oh, please point out where his shirt was anything like that.

If a woman had gone on air wearing this,

You can get beefcake ones, too.

I think people would have laughed and called her "wacky".

 

[Ville Pukema]

I wonder what the people who are pro-shirt would say if a woman appeared in the same venue with #KillAllMen plastered around it.

And otherwise that woman would act "normal" without saying anything that would make person to think he is serious about killing all men or that he is hating all men?

 

[alfredofroylan]

I wonder what the people who are pro-shirt would say if a woman appeared in the same venue with #KillAllMen plastered around it.

I'm ok with that, but then I'm from a country that celebrate women singing songs against men.

Spoiler

ME ESTAS OYENDO INÚTIL!!! TE APLASTARE COMO A UN GUSANO!!

 

[Keri]

The shirt is tacky and, I'll be honest, I want to judge him harshly for wearing it, but I can't help but feel terribly for him instead. I hope he is still able to enjoy this moment in his life and feel pride for this accomplishment.

 

[Opto]

I... Don't know if that's equivalent. The shirt in and of itself is, at the very least arguably inoffensive in the right context. Kill all men is not.

Yes it is. You just don't understand the hashtag

 

[DarkFlow]

Yes it is. You just don't understand the hashtag

You mean this?
http://www.salon.com/2013/05/07/twitters_latest_unfunny_trend_killallmen/

 

[Dai101]

I'm ok with that, but then I'm from a country that celebrate women singing songs against men.

Spoiler

ME ESTAS OYENDO INÚTIL!!! TE APLASTARE COMO A UN GUSANO!!

Rata de dos pataaaaaaaaaaaas!!

 

[Scrooged]

Yes it is. You just don't understand the hashtag

Your first mistake is assuming that he wore the shirt as a message of some kind.

 

[Wellscha]

Oh, please point out where his shirt was anything like that.

If a woman had gone on air wearing this,


I think people would have laughed and called her "wacky".

Of course?

this is no different than minorities calling each other racial slurs, yet it's completely racist if the majority started using the same slur.

 

[Opto]

Your first mistake is assuming that he wore the shirt as a message of some kind.

Everything is political.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Not only are people calling what clearly has a collar a tshirt, some are also tacky shirt shaming all men.

 

[Opto]

Kill All Men is reactionary to all the shit women have gone through. It's used because no one listens to them until they say something as jarring as the hashtag. (Psst they actually don't want to kill all men!)

 

[Scrooged]

Everything is political.

Sounds like you're projecting.

 

[Yrael]

Well, this is a rather loaded question! However, what we do need to do is listen to the experiences of women working in scientific fields. I linked to one page about sexual harassment of women in astronomy earlier, which was part of a series - it's well worth reading:

Some people may see Taylor’s dress as harmless or eccentric. For example, the UK newspaper, the Daily Mail, basically calls Taylor a rockstar, highlighting public comments on his tattoos and his “wild dress sense.” Erin Brodwin, journalist with The Business Insider science column, however, was not having any of that nonsense. Brodwin focused solely on the issue of sexism, noting that Taylor had recently answered questions on his acceptance as a scientist despite his tattoos. Taylor said then: “The people I work with don’t judge me by my looks but only by the work I have done and can do. Simple.” Brodwin notes with irony: “If only women could hope to someday be judged that way too.”

Analytical Chemist Dr Raychelle Burks noted that a prominent scientist appearing before the world’s media might have chosen a different shirt to make a statement about STEM. If he wanted to appear with a woman on his shirt, why not try Ada Lovelace? Or any other prominent woman in astronomy and astrophysics whose fight for inclusion reshaped space history? Instead of celebrating STEM at this momentous event, women are reminded of our objectification and exclusion.

This matters on many levels: it matters because of the uphill battle we face in STEM fields trying to get everyone to understand that sexism in STEM is an issue that affects us all. It matters because girls are continually told that STEM is not for them. It matters because people want to find excuses for the under-representation of girls and women, rather than focusing on solutions.

Some people on social media are under-playing this incident, telling women scientists to stop spoiling the achievement with feminist discussions. One woman tweets at astronomy Professor Jennifer Hoffman, "We've officially all become prudes." Another man accuses feminism for bumming out a momentous feat. Professor Hoffman argues this is not about prudishness, it's about professional respect of women colleagues:

Lol, I've heard that in this thread already.

.@weswt @missafayres Am I serious about being respected by colleagues in my professional environment? Uh, yes. #shirtstorm
— Jennifer L. Hoffman (@astroprofhoff) November 13, 2014

The reason why some people are under-playing the significance of Taylor’s choice of shirt goes to the heart of the way in which sexism works. Sexism is not simply maintained through active harassment and discrimination. It thrives because of deeply held values that go unexamined.

On our blog post, we pay special attention to how men can help reduce the burden on women in STEM, by actively challenging sexism in professional settings. This includes calling out the lack of awareness and bias of colleagues which objectify, denigrate and otherwise make women feel excluded from science. Sexism is more than insults and physical harassment. Sexism describes the culture, organisational patterns and other practices that perpetuate inequality. The things that we say and do, whether conscious or otherwise, are connected to broader patterns of gender inequality. This is known as everyday sexism - the types of social interaction that reinforce women's lesser status at work and in wider society. This #ShirtStorm incident allows us to see how everyday actions are connected to institutional sexism; that is, the organisational and policy barriers that women face throughout their education and careers. To learn more about how this incident helps us to better understand both everyday and institutional sexism in STEM, and how you and your organisation can help address the exclusion of women, keep reading on the Stem Women website.

(The overall opinion that I've seen from peers in science whenever a discussion about the T-shirt has arisen is that it was inappropriate and demeaning.)

Quoting this for the new page, excellent.

Thanks Anton. I think more people need to be aware that a lot of the criticism of the choice of T-shirt is coming from women working in science (including a theoretical astrophysicist who is incredibly enthusiastic when it comes to scientific outreach and teaching the general public). I keep seeing suggestions that if people call attention to the way clothing like this adds to a potentially hostile working environment for women and girls entering STEM fields, this means that they don't care about the amazing mission itself - which is ludicrous. The general conversation about making STEM environments more welcoming for women is still as pertinent as ever, even as humankind's achievements grow more breathtaking in their scope. Just imagine how much more we'll accomplish as more people enter science without feeling marginalised!

At any rate, I do believe that the lead scientist himself, Mike Taylor, genuinely understands why the T-shirt wasn't appropriate now.

 

[Kinitari]

Yes it is. You just don't understand the hashtag

I guess I'm going to be less accommodating here and just say that hashtag is disgusting, and if you are trying to win any hearts and minds you need to try a different approach.

 

[Ville Pukema]

Everything is political.

But yeah, im getting too sleepy for this thread. This was most likely linked on this thread but was good read so here we go again. http://womeninastronomy.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/rosetta-shirtstorm-sexism-stem.html#more


There is problems woman face in the science sector those are real and serious. Need to be taken care of. But I dont believe right way to do is to shame Matt and call him something he havent given any prove he is.

Uga uga, I have spoken.

 

[Dice//]

I think, outside a small pocket of people, no one is really feel their gender is offended more than the amount of people offended by this as fashion statement.

Burn the shirt then both super-feminists and fashionable folk can be appeased.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Everything is political.

Do you feel a lot of people posting in this tread are your political enemies, so to speak?

 

[Stinkles]

I heard the story and was outraged, but then I saw professor Guy Fieri and my outrage lessened. Because the only thing colder than space, is dat douche chill.

 

[captmorgan]

What if instead of the shirt he had tattoos of pin up girls all over his arms?

would that have been more or less acceptable?

 

[Riposte]

Everything is political.

Correction: Everything can be interpreted politically.

This also makes it clear that there's hardly a distinction present. If everything is something, then that something holds little to no meaning.

 

[Opto]

Do you feel a lot of people posting in this tread are your political enemies, so to speak?

Anyone who says "PC" or "it's just a shirt" or "he didn't mean to offend" or "super-feminists" is not likely going to be a political ally of mine

 

[stufte]

Anyone who says "PC" or "it's just a shirt" or "he didn't mean to offend" or "super-feminists" is not likely going to be a political ally of mine

So you think he maliciously wore the shirt with the intention of offending?

What??

 

[freenudemacusers]

I think, outside a small pocket of people, no one is really feel their gender is offended more than the amount of people offended by this as fashion statement.

Burn the shirt then both super-feminists and fashionable folk can be appeased.

#notallfashionistas

 

[Brakke]

So you think he maliciously wore the shirt with the intention of offending?

What??

How do you read that? Lots of people who aren't my allies aren't malicious.

 

[Opto]

So you think he maliciously wore the shirt with the intention of offending?

What??

I'm against intention as an excuse. Not knowing what you're doing doesn't mean you didn't contribute to harm.

 

[Nafai1123]

If the person being interviewed was a woman and she was wearing a shit full of topless hunks, would people be equally offended?

I'm not defending the guy for wearing a ridiculous, tacky and quite embarrassing shirt, but offensive? We see that kind of imagery every day on TV, billboards, magazines, etc. The guys an idiot (a brilliant one apparently), but I don't see how it's offensive, other than on the eyes.

 

[Dice//]

"super-feminists"

I can't but feel this was directed at me, but I'm a girl and a feminist. I honestly don't think this guy's intent was to offend as much as me seeing it as a bad choice in his taste for "fashionable apparel" (90% of this topic agrees it's 'tacky' -- and it is).

You can read more into it (certainly a lack of women in science is a clear issue and the shirt speak much more to what maybe some men may see women), but he did apologize, and I think the bigger story here is indeed the feet in science with the Philae Lander and this being an unfortunate "bump" that stemmed from it.

I'm against intention as an excuse. Not knowing what you're doing doesn't mean you didn't contribute to harm.

Most definitely. But he apologized for this. I guess the point is to make sure people know why this isn't really appropriate. I also definitely don't approve of sentiments like "it's just a shirt", because the wrong shirt can say just as much too.

More than that, I think such "targetted apparel" is really dumb. As much as a shirt with ladies in PVC bikinis, I think this is stupid too:

 

[Herpes Reasons]

That shirt is incredibly trashy. Obviously, no offense was intended, but that doesn't mean it's not a gross shirt.

smh.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Anyone who says "PC" or "it's just a shirt" or "he didn't mean to offend" or "super-feminists" is not likely going to be a political ally of mine

I consider that a good thing. I wouldn't want to side with someone who makes mountains out of molehills or sees a fight in everything.

 

[Kuroyume]

Right. Has nobody else actually been in this situation, working hard on something and then watching while someone from the team you know is prone to embarrassing themselves goes up to talk about it and then just makes an ass of themselves? I tend to get mad at that guy, not the people who noticed how embarrassing he was being.

Is the team upset at him? Or are you projecting?

You should be mad at the people upset over a shirt. The fact that this is news and that he had to apologize for wearing a shit is aboslute bullshit. And he deserves absolutely no scorn for it. People can choose to ignore it and focus on the more important event, but in today's PC world with twitter and all these tabloid sites on the internet this is the type of garbage that gets the attention because everyone wants to feel offended and self important.

This is spiderwoman in spiderman pose levels of stupid.