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[charlequin]

To all the people who are saying "He made a great achievement overshadowed by this dumb 'controversy'!" I agree, but he also wore a stupid-ass tacky shirt to the press interview about said achievement.

Right. Has nobody else actually been in this situation, working hard on something and then watching while someone from the team you know is prone to embarrassing themselves goes up to talk about it and then just makes an ass of themselves? I tend to get mad at that guy, not the people who noticed how embarrassing he was being.

Isn't it about respecting artists and his/her right to produce what they like?

Who is saying the shirt should never have been created, rather than just not worn on TV while discussing a major scientific achievement?

It does though in a case as inconsequential as this. The guy just landed a bullet on a bullet. The critics can let us know when they make a contribution to society of similarly meaningful weight.

"You can't criticize anyone who has ever made an achievement greater than you" is like the worst kind of childish logic. Basically no part of society can actually stand up to this kind of fallacious reasoning.

 

[BocoDragon]

Why have I seen this damn story about some stupid shirt more times than news about the actual mission? God damn it humanity.

It's kind of a perfect metaphor for how humans relate to silly social issues far more easily than with scientific ones.

 

[GameGuru59]

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

Doesn't mean we have to coddle the offended as though they are children with a scraped knee every time they raise their voice. They also don't (or shouldn't) get the right to set the dress code wherever their eyes tend to glance. Someone wore a shirt you don't approve of. Okay. Move on with your day.

 

[Instro]

I feel like there is a lot of willful ignorance going on and a lot of people are confusing the issue here. The guy doesn't need to be crucified, he's not a sexist, the shirt itself is not even that offensive and would probably be fine in other settings. The issue here is that it was worn on TV by someone who is supposed to represent the scientific community, a community along with all STEM fields that has historically had issues attracting women because of sexism and long standing image problems. How do you attract young women and girls to work in these fields when the constant impression is that they are wholly dominated by geeky men, man children, and people who are generally insensitive to the complaints of women. The shirt isn't sexist but its a small part of a larger issue with the environment that is present in STEM fields, probably because standards for communication and dress are so lax. In most other workplaces wearing that shirt would lead to complaints, a write up, and you being sent home.

 

[DeaviL]

No, I'm saying it's possible, which is why you can't just throw up a "but a woman made the shirt/a woman said it/a woman is in GamerGate" and expect that to prove a point.

It's what you do best though.

What proof do you want?

Shirt covered in sexy women? Check.
Women who were offended? Check.
Men dismissing the validity of offended women? Check.

 

[Superflat]

Who is saying the shirt should never have been created, rather than just not worn on TV while discussing a major scientific achievement?

Like I said in a previous post, it's not a general statement I'm making, I'm specifically talking about a quoted poster's intentions vs what KHarvey was extrapolating from said quotation. Context rules!

 

[Dice//]

I feel like there is a lot of willful ignorance going on and a lot of people are confusing the issue here. The guy doesn't need to be crucified, he's not a sexist, the shirt itself is not even that offensive and would probably be fine in other settings. The issue here is that it was worn on TV by someone who is supposed to represent the scientific community, a community along with all STEM fields that has historically had issues attracting women because of sexism and long standing image problems. How do you attract young women and girls to work in these fields when the constant impression is that they are wholly dominated by geeky men, man children, and people who are generally insensitive to the complaints of women. The shirt isn't sexist but its a small part of a larger issue with the environment that is present in STEM fields, probably because standards for communication and dress are so lax. In most other workplaces wearing that shirt would lead to complaints, a write up, and you being sent home.

Well that was concise and beautiful.

 

[Friend]

It's ok you typoed but I got your back.

I'll be sure to make my posts as monotone and literal in the future as to not offend your sensibilities. Okay? okay

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I feel like there is a lot of willful ignorance going on and a lot of people are confusing the issue here. The guy doesn't need to be crucified, he's not a sexist, the shirt itself is not even that offensive and would probably be fine in other settings. The issue here is that it was worn on TV by someone who is supposed to represent the scientific community, a community along with all STEM fields that has historically had issues attracting women because of sexism and long standing image problems. How do you attract young women and girls to work in these fields when the constant impression is that they are wholly dominated by geeky men, man children, and people who are generally insensitive to the complaints of women. The shirt isn't sexist but its a small part of a larger issue with the environment that is present in STEM fields, probably because standards for communication and dress are so lax. In most other workplaces wearing that shirt would lead to complaints, a write up, and you being sent home.

Who is saying the shirt should never have been created, rather than just not worn on TV while discussing a major scientific achievement?

Anton Sugar has stated the shirt is sexist by the very nature of existing unless I'm mistaken.

 

[railGUN]

Funny how this guy somehow represents the (entire) scientific community and all STEM fields... Why him? Did he agree to that role?

 

[Anton Sugar]

It's what you do best though.

If the creator isn't offended, it doesn't mean that other women weren't.

You and others are trying to argue "it wasn't offensive, stop being offended."

I am arguing "women were offended and have a right to be offended" not "you don't have the right to not be offended."

 

[charlequin]

Doesn't mean we have to coddle the offended as though they are children with a scraped knee every time they raise their voice. They also don't (or shouldn't) get the right to set the dress code wherever their eyes tend to glance. Someone wore a shirt you don't approve of. Okay. Move on with your day.

You have literally spent more time and more words talking about this issue in this thread alone than Rose Eveleth, the woman who originally brought up the issue, spent in total discussing it, and she tweeted "Glad to hear @mggtTaylor recognized his mistake & apologized (live stream isn't working for me) and we can both move along with our lives" ten hours before this thread was even created.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Anton Sugar has stated the shirt is sexist by the very nature of existing unless I'm mistaken.

I have absolutely no clue how "women were offended by this shirt" turned into an existential shirt discussion.

 

[Noaloha]

Glad to see this catching flak. Any and all spotlights on the gender disparity in STEM fields - and reasons/conditions that might, in any way, contribute to it - are welcome.

As to why this is, in some circles, larger news than the landing itself, that's a culture matter. Something important and useful, if only to note the outraged, it's obviously in every way not as fascinating as the sheer audacity of the scientific accomplishment.

 

[Hale-XF11]

I wonder how people who are offended by this sort of thing are able to get through day to day life. Must be a special kind of hell.

 

[DeaviL]

If the creator isn't offended, it doesn't mean that other women weren't.

You and others are trying to argue "it wasn't offensive, stop being offended."

I am arguing "women were offended and have a right to be offended" not "you don't have the right to not be offended."

You dismiss a claim using "but a woman is..."
And insert your own claim of "but a woman is...."

Also, multiple of your post claim this as objectively sexist, which would fall in the category of
"you don't have the right to not be offended."
Or better yet
"You have a right to be offended, but only admitting you're sexist"


As pointed out we are stretching a conversation which is pretty dumb out longer then it needs to be.
I'm gonna back out and marvel at the science behind it all (and hopefully forget the whole shirt debacle)

 

[ghostjoke]

I wonder how people who are offended by this sort of thing are able to get through day to day life. Must be a special kind of hell.

They go on tumblr and "change the world"

 

[MJLord]

I wonder how people who are offended by this sort of thing are able to get through day to day life. Must be a special kind of hell.

Hell? Why are you forcing your own beliefs on me! GAWWDD.

and so on.

 

[GameGuru59]

"You can't criticize anyone who has ever made an achievement greater than you" is like the worst kind of childish logic. Basically no part of society can actually stand up to this kind of fallacious reasoning.

It is childish when you simplify it to that degree. I'm saying in comparison to what he has done, he is earned the right to wear whatever the hell he wants after this acheivement. Why can't we give him that much? Does he have to be completely professional at all times? Even on a day that is probably one of the best in his life? I swear to God I'm beginning to hate my own progressive allies because you all seem to expend so much energy being caught up on issues like this. Its stuff like this that people can't stand the left. Stuff like this is a big part of the reason we can't win in the south. People get tired of hearing about other people being offended for meaningless reasons. Believe it or not it turns people off.

 

[UrbanRats]

I wonder how people who are offended by this sort of thing are able to get through day to day life. Must be a special kind of hell.

Lol, the irony of this post.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Also, multiple of your post claim this as objectively sexist, which would fall in the category of
"you don't have the right to not be offended."
Or better yet
"You have a right to be offended, but only admitting you're sexist"

The only time I've claimed objectivity is when I stated that a number of women, including some in the astronomy/STEM field, were offended by the shirt. I deduce that this shirt is offensive to women. Next time I'll use "some" women, or better yet, #NotAllWomen.

 

[jchap]

It's tacky. I'm not offended.

 

[charlequin]

It is childish when you simplify it to that degree. I'm saying in comparison to what he has done, he is earned the right to wear whatever the hell he wants after this acheivement.

It's childish when I reduce it to... exactly what you are actually saying, basically without embellishment?

Like I said in a previous post, it's not a general statement I'm making, I'm specifically talking about a quoted poster's intentions vs what KHarvey was extrapolating from said quotation. Context rules!

People say "it's offensive to wear that shirt on TV when you're representing a diverse team of scientists who performed this impressive feat." Person who made the shirt says "I didn't make it to express an offensive position." Her response is totally irrelevant to the first point; the shirt could be fine in abstract but offensive in a specific context, just like showing someone your junk is fine in many contexts but not appropriate at work.

Nobody's right to create what they want is being challenged so saying "well it's about respecting people's right to create what they want" doesn't actually reflect on the issue at hand.

That doesn't mean this guy should have gotten nearly as much shit as he has gotten though

The internet harassment culture falls disproportionately on the backs of the disadvantaged, but it does still actually suck for everyone. The initial spark of this (a few people tweeting once or twice about their legitimate annoyance) was fine, but when people follow up on that by trying to harass and bother him into compliance, it's malicious and wrong, regardless of the underlying reason.

At least in this case the full consequences of this were the guy having shit talked about him (which was inappropriate) and then apologizing of his own accord, not losing his job, not getting doxxed or having his parents threatened or his car keyed or anything, so overall it could have been a lot worse.

Anton Sugar has stated the shirt is sexist by the very nature of existing unless I'm mistaken.

He posted just on the last page that he's not saying the shirt shouldn't exist.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I have absolutely no clue how "women were offended by this shirt" turned into an existential shirt discussion.

People have the right to be offended by the shirt. However, you treated the sexist nature of the shirt as fact rather than opinion throughout your posts.

When presented with the dissenting views of others (including those of the woman who created the shirt) you just shrug it off and compare it to people/women who support Ray Rice in an attempt to discredit their/her views.

 

[Anton Sugar]

People have the right to be offended by the shirt. However, you treated the sexist nature of the shirt as fact rather than opinion throughout your posts.

When presented with the dissenting views of others (including those of the woman who created the shirt) you just shrug it off and compare it to people/women who support Ray Rice in an attempt to discredit their/her views.

Don't know how many times I have to say this: the creator's lack of offense does not mean that women can't be offended, or that they weren't offended. It does little to add to the conversation. LISTEN to people who were offended and try to understand why. There was literally a good, sincere, well-written explanation from Women in Astronomy on WHY it was offensive. Did you read that?

 

[UrbanRats]

It is childish when you simplify it to that degree. I'm saying in comparison to what he has done, he is earned the right to wear whatever the hell he wants after this acheivement.

Exactly because of the greater spotlight, you have to be extra careful what you're portraying, and how it could be interpreted.

 

[Azulsky]

Yeah I felt this one coming once I saw the shirt on the live stream.

I dont find it offensive but i guess better PC than sorry these days.

 

[Moff]

Thanks for the concern.

That image is an example of how women can internalize or accept misogyny/sexism while never technically "supporting it". Just because a woman made the shirt, doesn't mean it's immune from criticism for sexism. Get it?

nah man, I think pretty much everyone agrees that not the shirt itself is the problem and/or misogynist. it's the occasion and the context of women's attraction to tech jobs.

but your zealotry has blinded you so much that you are even attacking the woman who created that harmless shirt. take a break.

 

[Ville Pukema]

Excuse me, where did I say anyone was lying? I said that "he was just being himself" is a fucking ridiculous justification.

Pardon me, but seems like you knew its not and still called it being meme.

Why is it so ridiculous? He has been himself at work for years while being part of this awesome space project. Now was huge day and I can only imagine how exited he has been about all this, thinking about what cloths are okey to wear on interview probably wasnt on top of hes mind.

Was that shirt in good taste? Well clearly it wasnt, as we have seen from this backlask to it. But I cant say its justified to personalise this whole science is sexist and ostracizing to woman in him, just because he was wearing this shirt. There would have been so many better ways to handle this



Edit: Visited twitter and holyshit.

https://twitter.com/roseveleth/status/532538957490561024

Totally legit to say something like that because of shirt, and not knowing anything else about the person. All these people on twitter calling him creep and shit, and only because of one picture where he is wearing the shirt. Nothing else about him needs to be known, they can all fairy judge him as person by that picture. They're offended so its okey to call him that I quess and I just have to accept it.

 

[Anton Sugar]

nah man, I think pretty much everyone agrees that not the shirt itself is the problem and/or misogynist. it's the occasion and the context of women's attraction to tech jobs.

but your zealotry has blinded you so much that you are even attacking the woman who created that harmless shirt. take a break.

Just being myself, man.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Don't know how many times I have to say this: the creator's lack of offense does not mean that women can't be offended, or that they weren't offended. It does little to add to the conversation. LISTEN to people who were offended and try to understand why. There was literally a good, sincere, well-written explanation from Women in Astronomy on WHY it was offensive. Did you read that?

Did you even read my post? The first sentence says people have a right to be offended.

However, that does not mean you can shrug off or attempt to discredit the views of others when it's a very subjective shirt. You especially cannot make blatantly demeaning comparisons like you made posting that inflammatory Ray Rice jersey photo.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I wonder how people who are offended by this sort of thing are able to get through day to day life. Must be a special kind of hell.

Are we talking about the people reacting to the shirt or to the headline?

 

[GameGuru59]

Exactly because of the greater spotlight, you have to be extra careful what you're portraying, and how it could be interpreted.

Or everyone else could be greatful for his efforts and give him a break. And before you ask, I am arguing that when you do good shit, you should be entitled to certain breaks from society that are within reason. Nobody criticizes Mia Hamm (was that her name?) for taking her shirt off and objectifying women when she won a soccer game.

 

[charlequin]

Why is it so ridiculous? He has been himself at work for years while being part of this awesome space project. Now was huge day and I can only imagine how exited he has been about all this, thinking about what cloths are okey to wear on interview probably wasnt on top of hes mind.

I mean... have you worked in an office? Having to think about how you look when you're being presented in front of other people is one of the most basic skills required for basically every office job. If you ever have to do presentations in big meetings, or get photographed for company materials, or get interviewed for trade publications, or go onsite for clients, all of these things involve, first and foremost, thinking about how you are presenting yourself and making sure it represents your team, your company, and your industry in a good light.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I don't see a problem with a shirt like that.
If people are offended by it thats okay, but doesn't justify to attack this guy in the way he was attacked.
They judged him based on his shirt.

 

[NomarTyme]

LMAO love the Tshirt.

 

[Opto]

lol people getting pissy at basic feminism in this thread. Mention of "PC" "freedom of speech." Just a few more and I'll fill out this row on my sexism bingo card.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Or everyone else could be greatful for his efforts and give him a break. And before you ask, I am arguing that when you do good shit, you should be entitled to certain breaks from society that are within reason. Nobody criticizes Mia Hamm (was that her name?) for taking her shirt off and objectifying women when she won a soccer game.

Lmao

You have to just be trolling now

 

[Opto]

Or everyone else could be greatful for his efforts and give him a break. And before you ask, I am arguing that when you do good shit, you should be entitled to certain breaks from society that are within reason. Nobody criticizes Mia Hamm (was that her name?) for taking her shirt off and objectifying women when she won a soccer game.

Oh my fucking god is this a real post

 

[GameGuru59]

Lmao

You have to just be trolling now

Absolutely not. Why not give perks to people who do things that benefit society?

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

And this was the 545,672nd time this week a STEM guy failed to dress appropriately.

This made me laugh at how true it is. I wore a tank and shorts to work yesterday. I guess I'm a programmer and not a research scientist but it still kinda works.

 

[DarkFlow]

lol people getting pissy at basic feminism in this thread. Mention of "PC" "freedom of speech." Just a few more and I'll fill out this row on my sexism bingo card.

You're really helping it out with this post.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Or everyone else could be greatful for his efforts and give him a break. And before you ask, I am arguing that when you do good shit, you should be entitled to certain breaks from society that are within reason. Nobody criticizes Mia Hamm (was that her name?) for taking her shirt off and objectifying women when she won a soccer game.

It's posts like this that make these threads intolerable. What the hell are you even saying?

 

[The Technomancer]

Absolutely not. Why not give perks to people who do things that benefit society?

Perks like...follow this through

 

[Arcteryx]

Who gives a shit.

Mind your own god damn business.

 

[Opto]

You're really helping it out with this post.

I am far beyond thinking there is any saving these poor souls.

 

[Brakke]

Why have I seen this damn story about some stupid shirt more times than news about the actual mission? God damn it humanity.

But that's a question you can answer though. Where are you looking for news that this happened? If you don't like that state of affairs, how are you doing to fix it? Even the much maligned Verge gave way more words and stories to the mission than the shirt.

What you see reflects the media you've chosen to read, not some universal statement about humanity.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Absolutely not. Why not give perks to people who do things that benefit society?

Contributing to society doesn't exempt people from anything (not even saying the man in question did anything terrible, just that the shirt was inappropriate for the occasion). And the second half of that post can't be serious, I hope

 

[Dice//]

Who gives a shit.

Mind your own god damn business.

He wore it on TV for a public event.... Not his business at that point, it was public.

 

[Stet]

Absolutely not. Why not give perks to people who do things that benefit society?

Lots of people benefit society but they don't go out in public in shirts that look like they were bought from a 15-year-old's yard sale after he realized that maybe this was the reason his first kiss was his cousin.