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[TwEE-N-Toast]

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

So you are saying that the woman who creates these shirts and who obviously does not have a problem with their design is comparable to how some women can support abusive men? Isn't that a way to dismiss her view because it isn't inline with your world view?

 

[Nethaniah]

so that you, too, will have the mystical knowledge that I have of women being offended.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean but alright.

The post, not the links, didn't click on em nor do i care to.

 

[DeaviL]

Women are telling you how they feel. Some people are supporting them, others are telling them they have no right to be offended.

So?
Some women are offended, this means it's objectively bad?

That's not how it works.

 

[Confidence Man]

So you are saying that the woman who creates these shirts and who obviously does not have a problem with their design is comparable to how some women can support abusive men? Isn't that a way to dismiss her view because it isn't inline with your world view?

Sounds like the logic a gamergater would use.

 

[Anton Sugar]

So?
Some women are offended, this means it's objectively bad?

That's not how it works.

How does it work, then?

 

[poppabk]

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

People can be offended by gays kissing. People can be offended by interracial couples. People can be offended that a woman got an abortion. People can be offended that you left your American flag up in the rain. People can be offended that there are leaves on your lawn. People can be offended that you held the door open for them. People can be offended that you didn't hold the door open for them.
Stating your opinion in terms of being offended doesn't immediately protect your opinion from challenge or make it meaningful.

 

[BocoDragon]

That's exactly what I mean. The shirt isn't the cause, but a symptom. The reaction to the topic itself (not the reaction to the articles and Twitter posts calling him names, which are also problems) is also an indicator of the larger issue at play.

That the shirt is a symptom of sexist culture in tech, and those who defend it are perpetuating sexist culture, is one possible reality.

But its not the only way to interpret this. It could be a shirt that is not a symptom of sexist culture, but of a human culture that tends to male and female forms on clothing, and it could be a reasonable response to scoff at the suggestion that a shirt is a major icon in a cultural battle over the inclusion of women.

I can accept that it might be either... But I can't blindly run in one direction and say for sure that this shirt has everything or nothing at all to do with gender politics.

 

[KHarvey16]

...didn't click on em nor do i care to.

Perfectly illustrates the moronic stubbornness at the center of this issue.

 

[Friend]

Does everything have to be sterilized so nothing can ever offend anyone ever? I'm just tired of sensitivity being valued over free expression every time.

The guy was gifted the shirt by his rockabilly female friend and he wore it cause he thinks it looks cool. Simple as that. I'm willing to bet he has a closet full of similarly tacky shirts. Its just unfortunate that this day he wore the one with the sexy women on it.

Tying this guys wear to systematic gender disparity is such a mind numbing leap. Leave it to the modern internet mob to escalate the moral stakes of everything to life or death levels.

 

[DeaviL]

How does it work, then?

Look at this thread full of diverting opinions, open your mind to the magic of subjectivity.

Spoiler

Some of the people who disagree might even be women, goodness gracious

 

[Nethaniah]

Perfectly illustrates the moronic stubbornness at the center of this issue.

Uhu.

 

[Tesseract]

Countering "it's offensive to women" with "but here's a woman who doesn't think its offensive" is poor reasoning employed by some here and also by gamergaters.

the designer is all i care about, it's her art. the general abstract is w/e, it's too juvenile

 

[Scrooged]

How does it work, then?

Proportion is one way. This shirtstom was created by a handful of tweets. Is there any proof that a sizable amount of people were greatly offended by the shirt?

 

[KHarvey16]

That the shirt is a symptom of sexist culture in tech, and those who defend it are perpetuating sexist culture, is one possible reality.

But its not the only way to interpret this. It could be a shirt that is not a symptom of sexist culture, but of a human culture that tends to male and female forms on clothing, and it could be a reasonable response to scoff at the suggestion that a shirt is a major icon in a cultural battle over the inclusion of women.

I can accept that it might be either... But I can't blindly run in one direction and say for sure that this shirt has everything or nothing at all to do with gender politics.

"But the blackface wasn't meant to be offensive!"

 

[Dice//]

To all the people who are saying "He made a great achievement overshadowed by this dumb 'controversy'!" I agree, but he also wore a stupid-ass tacky shirt to the press interview about said achievement. I'd imagine I'd want to look, daresay, "presentable" and classy then like some ass hat wearing sexy-in-the-wrong-ways outfit. I think he distracted the event just a bit by drawing eyes to ridiculous apparel. x)

Anyways, hope it gets burned and we get more fancy news about the Philae soon

 

[Ferrio]

"But the blackface wasn't meant to be offensive!"

Was only a matter of time.

 

[KHarvey16]

the designer is all i care about, it's her art. the general abstract is w/e

The creator of anything is the singular authority on whether or not it's offensive? That's...really, really silly reasoning.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean but alright.

The post, not the links, didn't click on em nor do i care to.

*posts "Okay" as if I don't know that women were offended*
*refuses to click on links to women explaining why they were offended AND thanking Taylor for the apology*

 

[DarkFlow]

"But the blackface wasn't meant to be offensive!"

So how many more posts till we hit Hitler?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Seeing some really nasty reasoning on both sides right now. Comparing a woman who supports ray rice to a woman who created the shirt in an attempt to stifle her voice and opinion in the matter.

That's vicious.

 

[Superflat]

The creator of anything is the singular authority on whether or not it's offensive? That's...really, really silly reasoning.

Isn't it about respecting artists and his/her right to produce what they like? I think you put words in Tesseract's mouth with that assumption.

 

[Brakke]

Does everything have to be sterilized so nothing can ever offend anyone ever? I'm just tired of sensitivity being valued over free expression every time.

The guy was gifted the shirt by his rockabilly female friend and he wore it cause he thinks it looks cool. Simple as that. I'm willing to bet he has a closet full of similarly tacky shirts. Its just unfortunate that this day he wore the one with the sexy women on it.

Tying this guys wear to systematic gender disparity is such a mind numbing leap. Leave it to the modern internet mob to escalate the moral stakes of everything to life or death levels.

You want to talk about "mind numbing leaps" how about "everything have to be sterilized" and "escalating stakes to life and death". Haven't seen anyone make either of those claims in this thread, certainly.

 

[KHarvey16]

Isn't it about respecting artists and his/her right to produce what they like? I think you put words in Tesseract's mouth with that assumption.

Who is questioning her right to make anything?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Isn't it about respecting artists and his/her right to produce what they like? I think you put words in Tesseract's mouth with that assumption.

What does "respecting artists" mean? That you shouldn't criticize them? Because no one is saying she doesn't have a right to produce what she wants.

 

[charlequin]

These are the kinds of things that make me question the basic sense people have about daily life. Own the shirt, wear it out on the street? Well, fine, if you're comfortable with what that implies about you personally. Wear it to work? Not actually appropriate, but I understand that some places don't really have HR rules and welcoming work environment as a high priority. Wear it ON TELEVISION? Failure of common sense. You might as well pick your nose and eat it on camera; either one is an embarrassing, cringeworthy choice.

I don't think he's a sexist or misogynist. I think he likes ladies in lingerie and he likes that shirt. I kind of like it too. But it was dumb to wear it in that setting. It was tasteless and unprofessional, and I can see why a lot of women might be put off by it or feel it sends a boy's club vibe though I'm certain that wasn't his intent.

Exactly. The guy's not a monstrous ogre or anything. He did a foolish thing and he should not in fact be exempt from criticism of the form "that thing you did was dumb, don't do it again."

Again, even with casual attire pretty broadly acceptable in many creative fields these days, in a professional environment this shirt would fly except in one that's so dominated by men that the perspectives of women are completely off the radar. This isn't even all that complicated. At most jobs you'd have a decent chance of eventually getting an HR complaint about it, with the chance going way up if you're a jerk (as opposed to a decent guy who makes one embarrassing choice, like Taylor seems to be.)

And going on TV, again regardless of where you work, is always something that demands a higher standard of presentation and behavior than just going to the office. I've worked at at least four places where at some point TV crews came in (even if only for dumb local news stories) and we always got an email beforehand telling people to step their dress game up for a day.

He screwed up. He apologized. People should absolutely get off his back now, but it wasn't wrong to criticize it in the first place.

The shirt was made and given to him by a female friend.

I don't even know where to start in explaining how irrelevant this is.

 

[Moff]

seriously?
your views have reached an extreme level of zealotry, much more extreme than your opponents here. there is no reasoning with that.
you should take a break and take a look at what you wrote from a distance, after some time of clearing your head.

 

[JimtotheHum]

I'm sure he's not a bad guy, but he is representing the ESA and should show a certain amount of professionalism.

That shirt is tacky as hell, and kinda disrespectful.

 

[Superflat]

What does "respecting artists" mean? That you shouldn't criticize them? Because no one is saying she doesn't have a right to produce what she wants.

Who is questioning her right to make anything?

So this is how we're gonna argue, huh?

My post was about Tesseract was saying, and how I thought you were missing its point. I was saying what I thought the poster was saying (I may or may not be wrong). Nowhere did I say any of what you guys are saying I said. Man, this is dumb lol

Now on a UNRELATED note to respond to what you wanna talk about I believe artists' works are totally up to criticism, but they also have the right to exist imo.

 

[BocoDragon]

"But the blackface wasn't meant to be offensive!"

That seems like a rebuttal to a different point.

You have adopted the position that this shirt is a symptom of sexist culture and defending it is perpetuating sexist culture, and I'm saying there are entirely different possibilities for
1. Why that shirt exists
2. Why people would defend him for wearing it and
3. The result of defending it, and it having an impact on gender issues in society and technology

If I cant scoff at people being outraged over a shirt without unintentionally defending sexist culture, then I really feel put in a bind. And I also don't think that a shirt of female forms is necessarily a result of sexist culture (nor of a scientist wearing it necessarily being a symptom of women's inclusion in science)

 

[Friend]

You want to talk about "mind numbing leaps" how about "everything have to be sterilized" and "escalating stakes to life and death". Haven't seen anyone make either of those claims in this thread, certainly.

they're called rhetorical questions and metaphors

 

[MJLord]

The creator of anything is the singular authority on whether or not it's offensive? That's...really, really silly reasoning.

Why isn't it enough to be offended at it without demanding that the creator remove or hide their work?

It's thought provoking clearly because people are talking about it.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

What does "respecting artists" mean? That you shouldn't criticize them? Because no one is saying she doesn't have a right to produce what she wants.

How about not comparing her to a Ray Rice apologist? There's a start.

 

[Tesseract]

The creator of anything is the singular authority on whether or not it's offensive? That's...really, really silly reasoning.

it's a shirt designed for a dude by a woman. it's art, her art. why should i care if it offends other people, they don't matter.

 

[entremet]

I'm sure he's not a bad guy, but he is representing the ESA and should show a certain amount of professionalism.

That shirt is tacky as hell, and kinda disrespectful.

Apparently, in the other thread, the one covering the project, ESA isn't a traditional workplace. It's more like startup than NASA.

Not to defend the scientist's choices, but to understand the bigger picture here.

 

[Anton Sugar]

seriously?
your views have reached an extreme level of zealotry, much more extreme than your opponents here. there is no reasoning with that.
you should take a break and take a look at what you wrote from a distance, after some time of clearing your head.

Thanks for the concern.

That image is an example of how women can internalize or accept misogyny/sexism while never technically "supporting it". Just because a woman made the shirt, doesn't mean it's immune from criticism for sexism. Get it?

 

[Piecake]

He should have asked Tony Abbot to shirtfront him.

 

[Dice//]

Wear it ON TELEVISION? Failure of common sense. You might as well pick your nose and eat it on camera; either one is an embarrassing, cringeworthy choice.

Love it. I'm surprised people miss that part the most. Even if you don't want to acknowledge there is likely a sense of decorum you have to have about these things because it's not so simple as wearing something you "like" *thumbsup*; but there's an audience watching.

 

[Wellscha]

http://www.theguardian.com/science/...nnoyed-at-rosetta-mission-scientists-clothing

Taylor refer to the Rosetta mission as “the sexiest mission there’s ever been. She’s sexy, but I never said she was easy.”

Yup, it was just a fashion statement.

 

[Brakke]

they're called insincere hyperbole

It's ok you typoed but I got your back.

 

[GameGuru59]

And a big fucking LOL to the people who say "HE WAS A PART OF A HUGE AWESOME THING" as if that excuses him from criticism.

It does though in a case as inconsequential as this. The guy just landed a bullet on a bullet. The critics can let us know when they make a contribution to society of similarly meaningful weight. He shouldn't have apologized for shit. Just because someone's offended doesn't mean we should care. He just landed an robot on a comet 10 miilion or so miles away. He could have taken the interview butt ass naked for all I care, he's earned it.

 

[MJLord]

Love it. I'm surprised people miss that part the most. Even if you don't want to acknowledge there is likely a sense of decorum you have to have about these things because it's not so simple as wearing something you "like" *thumbsup*; but there's an audience watching.

I guess it's more about people reading into what the shirt supposedly represents rather than how tacky it is.

 

[Tesseract]

I don't even know where to start in explaining how irrelevant this is.

same, albeit inversely. oh whales ...

 

[stufte]

http://www.theguardian.com/science/...nnoyed-at-rosetta-mission-scientists-clothing



Yup, it was just a fashion statement.

And the character assassination continues.

 

[web01]

Cringe worthy shirt but not offensive.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

It's sad what has happened to this mission. Unless the mission was "let's see what this guy is wearing in 10 years when we bounce down on this comet".
I'm not so sure that even Europeans think that far ahead.

 

[Scrooged]

Thanks for the concern.

That image is an example of how women can internalize or accept misogyny/sexism while never technically "supporting it". Just because a woman made the shirt, doesn't mean it's immune from criticism for sexism. Get it?

So any woman who does something that's against your views on sexism is internalizing their own misogyny. You do know how ridiculous this sounds right? It's the equivalent of a fundamentalist Christian telling an Atheist that they really do believe in god but they are lying to themselves so that they can sin.

 

[Dice//]

I guess it's more about people reading into what the shirt supposedly represents rather than how tacky it is.

It's in their right to do so; certainly a lot can be read from it (like how wearing it 'felt appropriate' I guess) or whatever else. It's tacky, but he's got the right to wear it... However wearing it on television for a big press event is like asking for controversy, I think, who did he think was watching? I'm sure if some scientist wore a short that said a simple "fuck you" he'd also get questions.

 

[Anton Sugar]

So any woman who does something that's against your views on sexism is internalizing their own misogyny. You do know how ridiculous this sounds right? It's the equivalent of a fundamentalist Christian telling an Atheist that they really do believe in god but their lying to themselves so that they can sin.

No, I'm saying it's possible, which is why you can't just throw up a "but a woman made the shirt/a woman said it/a woman is in GamerGate" and expect that to prove a point.

 

[ghostjoke]

Why have I seen this damn story about some stupid shirt more times than news about the actual mission? God damn it humanity.

 

[Kinitari]

I think it starts to get hard when it gets to edge cases like these. That there are people who are offended isn't enough I think, to have people who would otherwise be supportive of the plight of women jump on board with something like this.

It gets complicated when you have some women who are offended and some who are not. Then you start trying to evaluate who to consider the authority. I think the more substantial way to get people on board is to frame the discussion in the sense that... There is a real dearth of women in science fields, and while this shirt may have nothing to do with that, on the off chance that it does, it's more valuable to try and reduce any potential friction then to fight for something that isn't particularly valuable.

That doesn't mean this guy should have gotten nearly as much shit as he has gotten though, and I think in a perfect world it would have been brought up without blame or guilt, but with a mutually respectful discussion. It sucks that it wasn't, and I think if there is anything to fight for in this case, it's more (or any) sort of that kind of dialogue.