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[Amir0x]

jarosh opinion on the motion controls are nothing like the GameStop review. He never said the controls are imprecise and doesn't work, in fact he stated the opposite.

No, he felt the fights were imprecise and rigid. Which is due, as far as I can tell in his estimation, very much to old Zelda enemies design being applied to the new motion controls; therefore, it's a motion control problem or a Zelda enemy design problem, depending on your perspective. However, he explicitly states that he would prefer them to return to standard controls for combat in the official topic. It was that big of a problem to him

 

[cajunator]

When was Zelda ever about the combat? Always seemd to me that enemies just existed to troll and get in your way while solving puzzles. With the exception of minibosses and bosses, the enemies are kind of forgettable.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

jarosh opinion on the motion controls are nothing like the GameStop review. He never said the controls are imprecise and doesn't work, in fact he stated the opposite.



jarosh is saying the combat isn't deeper or more satisfying and the changes are superficial.

Like I said the fact that the Gamespot reviewer said the game was controlled by IR and that it didn't work right when the game isn't controlled by IR makes me think that instead of using the controller as if it was a 3D mouse he was instead positioning the motions aimed at the TV. Which would make everything off. However, that is just my suspicion.

 

[Amir0x]

When was Zelda ever about the combat? Always seemd to me that enemies just existed to troll and get in your way while solving puzzles. With the exception of minibosses and bosses, the enemies are kind of forgettable.

it's kind of silly to say it's not at least partially about combat, considering it's one of the things you engage in most in the games.

It's exploration, puzzle solving and combat. Those are the three cornerstones. Fighting was fun in 2D Zelda titles, and they were fun when we introduced to the lock on mechanic in Zelda Ocarina of Time. And they were improved in Wind Waker. And aiming was improved with the pointer control in Twilight Princess, although waggle combat blew. It seems in Skyward Sword there is a real problem with motion+ application, either in the controls themselves (numerous reviews seem to name this problem) or by the game design being inappropriate to the new controls (the more nuanced perspective of jarosh).

And in any event, if you think it's so forgettable, then this is a real problem with the game. A real flaw. You're literally saying so. If it's forgettable, then they need to either remove combat or fix it so it isn't forgettable.

 

[Caelus]

a) Nintendo opted for the most bloated HUD the series has seen by default.

It is not that bloated, the fact that there's even options to disable most of it makes it better than past HUD's even.

b)This is going by memory, i might be wrong. But even in pro there are instances where up and down on the Dpad is shown.

Only when in low health.

c) Having 2 small additional icons protuding of the main circle in pro option wouldn't hurt so much when your left side is up to the brink with unnecesary shit that could be and should be contextual.

The left side is not filled to the brink, even though I agree the rupees should be contextual, it doesn't even fill up half the screen. I think it's fine.

As for those two small additional icons protruding off the main circle, that would look terrible, and less neat. If they did that I would prefer it on the d-pad.

d)Loft wing interface is ugly on pro. The stamina bar is ugly as they come and stays in Pro, when the sound cues could be more than enough. And there are a million other less intrusive visual ways to give the player feed back in regards of stamina status.

Mind pointing those million other ways out? I can only think of showing Link's face, and you never see it from behind. The stamina meter could be part of the HUD, but that is already the case in certain circumstances.
Funny you should say sound cues, because I play the game with the volume off, so that wouldn't help. (not because the music isn't good, because other people are sleeping .)

 

[cajunator]

it's kind of silly to say it's not at least partially about combat, considering it's one of the things you engage in most in the games.

It's exploration, puzzle solving and combat. Those are the three cornerstones. Fighting was fun in 2D Zelda titles, and they were fun when we introduced to the lock on mechanic in Zelda Ocarina of Time. And they were improved in Wind Waker. And aiming was improved with the pointer control in Twilight Princess, although waggle combat blew. It seems in Skyward Sword there is a real problem with motion+ application, either in the controls themselves (numerous reviews seem to name this problem) or by the game design being inappropriate to the new controls (the more nuanced perspective of jarosh).

And in any event, if you think it's so forgettable, then this is a real problem with the game. A real flaw. You're literally saying so. If it's forgettable, then they need to either remove combat or fix it so it isn't forgettable.

Im the kind of player who just runs past all the enemies if its possible to do. Fighting them just seems like a waste of time for me. Thats how I always played Zelda.

 

[Amir0x]

Im the kind of player who just runs past all the enemies if its possible to do. Fighting them just seems like a waste of time for me. Thats how I always played Zelda.

Well then you're acknowledging that they should fix the fighting. I cannot imagine how you'd have such a blind spot that you can't readily admit that if a huge segment of the Zelda experience is so boring to you that you actively try to avoid it then it's a significant design flaw requiring attention.

 

[MisterHero]

When was Zelda ever about the combat? Always seemd to me that enemies just existed to troll and get in your way while solving puzzles. With the exception of minibosses and bosses, the enemies are kind of forgettable.

Zelda became more and more of Nintendo's flagship action title (the other being Mario) but also the kind of series that appeals to action fans. The work to make the series 3D (via camera work) had the side-effect of making the action in the game appear more dramatic, and Nintendo pushed this a lot in OoT.

Without the extra flair OoT might have been a less phenomenal game, and people might've expected less from its successors. Because of OoT, the series itself represents a lot more than puzzles.

 

[Synless]

Here's the best and most consise dissection of the motion+ control problem I've seen yet, from fellow GAFer jarosh:





Particularly in his combat analysis, there represents a far better problem of the issue that I've seen anyone else suggest to date. He discusses the imprecise nature of the controls, the seeming disconnect between old zelda design enemies and new controls. It's a very nuanced analysis. It's what leads me to believe a site like Gamespot giving the game a 7.5 - which I'm inherently more inclined to believe since it's clearly not being influenced by publishing strong arming than IGN's embarrassing cum-guzzling 10.0 - is based on real problems, even though they perhaps weren't nearly as eloquently or accurately stated.

I know I'll love Skyward Sword, even though combat was the low point of the demo for me I felt everything else sort of made up for it. But there are real issues here.

I don't come into Zelda threads very often to go in as fresh as possible, but you said something I could't ignore. There is a demo? Where, when?

 

[Lord_Byron28]

I don't come into Zelda threads very often to go in as fresh as possible, but you said something I could't ignore. There is a demo? Where, when?

It is an illegal demo.

 

[Amir0x]

I don't come into Zelda threads very often to go in as fresh as possible, but you said something I could't ignore. There is a demo? Where, when?

The demo that leaked is somewhere, I don't know where. I played the demo at NYCC 2011.

jarosh has the actual game, however.

 

[cajunator]

Well then you're acknowledging that they should fix the fighting. I cannot imagine how you'd have such a blind spot that you can't readily admit that if a huge segment of the Zelda experience is so boring to you that you actively try to avoid it then it's a significant design flaw requiring attention.

Who knows? Maybe it is. I was never bothered by the fact that I didnt enjoy it as much it was just sort of something that I had to work around in the games. I dont really enjoy combat in any game unless it involves wild insane over the top moves and abilities, like in No More Heroes or Bayonetta. but those kinds of games are heavily focused on the combat.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Someone shop Link's hat on there instead, stat.

 

[Synless]

It is an illegal demo.

 

[butter_stick]

Hold and release B button

versus

Hold D-pad, select item with analog stick, release D-pad, press B to use weapon

Also, you can't move while selecting the item (since you need your analog stick), and it'd take much longer if your item is on the other side of the dial menu. And if you ask me, the B button is in a much more ergonomic position for quick switches than one of the D-pad buttons.

When did I say use the stick?

Have it work exactly as it does now, only have each d-pad direction hold an item. And when you select one, have it auto switched to, as happens now.

 

[apana]

Is anyone here willing to argue that any of the past four mainline console Zelda games have been below an 8? I'm not going to condemn the Gamespot review until I've had a chance to play the game myself, but it is important to note history.

 

[Despera]

Who knows? Maybe it is. I was never bothered by the fact that I didnt enjoy it as much it was just sort of something that I had to work around in the games. I dont really enjoy combat in any game unless it involves wild insane over the top moves and abilities, like in No More Heroes or Bayonetta. but those kinds of games are heavily focused on the combat.

Haven't played the game yet, but I'm hopeful that motion plus based controls can make the combat fun and relevant again.

Either that or Miyamoto and gang should hit up the Dark Souls dev team for some tips and headers.

 

[RurouniZel]

Well then you're acknowledging that they should fix the fighting. I cannot imagine how you'd have such a blind spot that you can't readily admit that if a huge segment of the Zelda experience is so boring to you that you actively try to avoid it then it's a significant design flaw requiring attention.

In my case, I usually ignore the enemies when I can simply because I'm trying to play the game as fast as possible. Since the Zelda series doesn't have EXP for fighting enemies I typically don't feel the need to engage them unless they engage me first. ^^;

 

[RPGCrazied]

Will the Zelda G4 review be on X-PLAY at all, or no?

 

[MechaX]

After actually playing the demo, I can definitely see where jarosh and the majority of reviewers are coming from when discussing the controls.

With that said, I'm still seeing a hard time getting to GameSpot's extreme.

 

[MisterHero]

Is anyone here willing to argue that any of the past four mainline console Zelda games have been below an 8? I'm not going to condemn the Gamespot review until I've had a chance to play the game myself, but it is important to note history.

Four Swords Adventures might qualify but that would have to be from a guy who hasn't played with 3 other players.

Wind Waker definitely lacked in content compared to other Zeldas, but even that isn't quite 8-and-below territory.

One thing that I think would help create the feeling of a complete package is if you could track all of the content you collected. For example, hunting Skulltullas in OoT wasn't a hassle because the game told you if you'd found all of them in a given area.

Hunting Heart Pieces in WW, Poes in TP were a bit more of a chore compared to Skulltullas.

but I wouldn't go overboard and make them achievements or anything

 

[butter_stick]

OoT is a 10, just for when it came out.
MM is an 8
WW is a 7
TP is a 9 but is better than OoT, but that's not how numeric rankings work in my head.

 

[marc^o^]

After actually playing the demo, I can definitely see where jarosh and the majority of reviewers are coming from when discussing the controls.

With that said, I'm still seeing a hard time getting to GameSpot's extreme.

I think I read all reviews (actually I did) and the majority - overwhelming majority - report controls are brilliant. As always there's a vocal minority: don't get fooled by it and make your own opinion.

 

[qizah]

OoT is a 10, just for when it came out.
MM is an 8
WW is a 7
TP is a 9 but is better than OoT, but that's not how numeric rankings work in my head.

I'm the opposite.

Ocarina of Time is still pretty amazing - I played it for the first time on the 3DS
Wind Waker is easily my favourite 3D Zelda (of all the ones I've played) - It had the best combat thus far and the best exploration.
I haven't played Majora's Mask (sad, I know).
TP was fairly disappointing for me - It's a pretty boring game. Too many boring sections between dungeons. The pacing is bad in TP - In OoT you can choose to go to the next dungeon almost immediately or go do extra stuff, where as in TP it's not at all like that, it doesn't let you pick your pace.

 

[butter_stick]

I'm the opposite.

Ocarina of Time is still pretty amazing - I played it for the first time on the 3DS
Wind Waker is easily my favourite 3D Zelda (of all the ones I've played) - It had the best combat thus far and the best exploration.
I haven't played Majora's Mask (sad, I know).
TP was fairly disappointing for me - It's a pretty boring game. Too many boring sections between dungeons. The pacing is bad in TP - In OoT you can choose to go to the next dungeon almost immediately or go do extra stuff, where as in TP it's not at all like that, it doesn't let you pick your pace.

I still really liked Ocarina when I played it on 3DS, it's just that I still think a 10 should be "special" (ugh), and Ocarina was a special game. Even though it was derivative of LttP in a lot of (most) ways, it just completely set a standard.

Wind Waker just disappointed me. I love so much about it but ultimately I can't say "this is as good as the other 3D Zeldas", because it just feels more incomplete than any of them.

 

[Druz]

Do you honestly believe stuff like that actually happens behind the scenes? I mean the topic of bribery is no stranger to journalists but there has yet to be a single incident where a popular company was exposed right?.. right?

It happens a lot. Doesnt mean it happens everytime. In other instances, a company call pull ads if they dont like the score.

 

[GamerSoul]

I'm the opposite.

Ocarina of Time is still pretty amazing - I played it for the first time on the 3DS
Wind Waker is easily my favourite 3D Zelda (of all the ones I've played) - It had the best combat thus far and the best exploration.
I haven't played Majora's Mask (sad, I know).
TP was fairly disappointing for me - It's a pretty boring game. Too many boring sections between dungeons. The pacing is bad in TP - In OoT you can choose to go to the next dungeon almost immediately or go do extra stuff, where as in TP it's not at all like that, it doesn't let you pick your pace.

This is basically how I feel(Haven't played MM eventhough I have it :X) . But I think TP was a really good game; it just didn't really stick with me like the others even though I took my merry time getting through it to the end.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

WW is a fucking 4/10 game, on the Anihawk scale. Boring ass exploration, mostly terrible dungeons, one of the worst end-game fetch quests in video game history, you have to go out of your way for you to be challenged by it making all the combat boring and superfluous, and ugly art design with flat textures and little depth or contrast to the world. I'm giving it points for a cool soundtrack, a couple decent dungeons here and there, and the final boss encounter.

 

[Kid Icarus]

After actually playing the demo, I can definitely see where jarosh and the majority of reviewers are coming from when discussing the controls.

With that said, I'm still seeing a hard time getting to GameSpot's extreme.

The majority of the reviews (as in almost all of them) have been overwhelmingly positive or positive in regards to the controls, how they work and their preference for them. That is not my opinion, it is a fact.

 

[Branduil]

WW ... ugly art design

 

[ShockingAlberto]

WW is a fucking 4/10 game, on the Anihawk scale. Boring ass exploration, mostly terrible dungeons, one of the worst end-game fetch quests in video game history, you have to go out of your way for you to be challenged by it making all the combat boring and superfluous, and ugly art design with flat textures and little depth or contrast to the world. I'm giving it points for a cool soundtrack, a couple decent dungeons here and there, and the final boss encounter.

Do you feel better now

 

[Refreshment.01]

It is not that bloated, the fact that there's even options to disable most of it makes it better than past HUD's even.

Like i said the "default" option, that by the way can't be changed in the introductory segment is bloated. Bloated to the point that it was cause of concern at the game's reveal at E3, it was pointed out to Aonuma in interviews to which he agreed and said it will allow the user some options. Which although not the best we do have.

The left side is not filled to the brink, even though I agree the rupees should be contextual, it doesn't even fill up half the screen. I think it's fine.

So you begin to worry about screen space when the HUD starts to fill half of the screen? Holy shit batman! then

Mind pointing those million other ways out? I can only think of showing Link's face, and you never see it from behind. The stamina meter could be part of the HUD, but that is already the case in certain circumstances.

Why bother? You'll find a fault in every possible thing i could suggest. After all 2 imaginary small Dpad buttons protunding from the "B" icon make the HUD umberable ugly. Yet an ever present 2 row of of hearts, shield bar and ruppe countare a master piece of HUD design.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Sometimes, you just got to rip on embarrassments to game design like Wind Waker. Just to break up the monotony of all the good things I say about games right now, like Rayman Origins or Saints Row 3(awesome games so far, btw).

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Do you feel better now

I only wish there was a way for me to feel batter about WW. Actually, a directors cut with the missing dungeons, an excised Triforce hunt, and rebalanced damage ratio would probably do it.

Oh, and fix the requirements for the Picto Box/Figurine quest. Holy shit that was infuriating.

 

[Davey Cakes]

The majority of the reviews (as in almost all of them) have been overwhelmingly positive or positive in regards to the controls, how they work and their preference for them. That is not my opinion, it is a fact.

For sure. I love how one outlier review and one well-composed post about the controls are being taken to represent the entire consensus on Skyward Sword's motion gameplay.

Selective abstraction, gotta love it.

 

[butter_stick]

Wind Waker could be amazing on Wii U. Touch screen as ocean map, with the ability to draw your path like in PH :drool

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

WW is a fucking 4/10 game, on the Anihawk scale. Boring ass exploration, mostly terrible dungeons, one of the worst end-game fetch quests in video game history, you have to go out of your way for you to be challenged by it making all the combat boring and superfluous, and ugly art design with flat textures and little depth or contrast to the world. I'm giving it points for a cool soundtrack, a couple decent dungeons here and there, and the final boss encounter.

The art was decent in some parts (the windmill island everyone keeps posting from WW), but yeah, flat, empty & devoid of detail for the most the game.

 

[funkystudent]

Hope that gamespot reviewer is doing ok.

The response to Gerstmann's 8.8 for TP was pretty harsh with death treats and stuff showing up at his home.

dont know what will happen with a 7.5....



at least GAF doesn't seem to give a shit. thats cool I guess.

 

[GamerSoul]

Wind Waker could be amazing on Wii U. Touch screen as ocean map, with the ability to draw your path like in PH :drool

And with a speedboat upgrade just for kicks.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Replaying WW. OMG. So much stuff to do and explore.

:bow: WW
iss: empty barren TP

 

[Relix]

Wind Waker, even incomplete, is superior to the piece of shit lifeless* that TP was.

*In Zelda terms, which is basically better than 85% of the games out there.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Wind Waker, even incomplete, is superior to the piece of shit lifeless* that TP was.

*In Zelda terms, which is basically better than 85% of the games out there.

Debatable. Each has its own strengths, but what's more interesting to me is how many of the same flaws they share.

 

[linko9]

The art was decent in some parts (the windmill island everyone keeps posting from WW), but yeah, flat, empty & devoid of detail for the most the game.

Well, I suppose spatially, yes, most of the game is flat and empty, due to the whole ocean thing. But temporally, most of the game is anything but "flat, empty & devoid of detail". Most of the time you're in a dungeon or island or whatnot, and those are great.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Wind Waker and Twilight Princess are both "flawed masterpieces." They both resort to filler too much. TP wins out in my opinion because it has the dungeons to compensate.

On a conceptual, artistic, and narrative level, WW kicks the shit out of TP. But in terms of offering a full Zelda experience, TP feels more "complete" and less rushed, even though it doesn't give the player enough to do with rupees (while relegating most secrets/side quests to rupee hunts) and includes its own fetch-quest like portion with the Tears of Light.

 

[MisterHero]

You know what, I prefer TP's Hyrule to WW's Great Ocean, but something might make me change my mind

You don't get to call Epona freely (with the Horse whistle) until damn near the end of the game.

Until then you have to be a wolf or hotfoot to anywhere you want to go, even between places where the Horse whistlegrass grows.

 

[butter_stick]

WW and TP both suffer from trying to pad out the game. I really don't think Ocarina did in the same way. Which is odd since both games clung so tightly to its structure.

 

[BGBW]

You know what, I prefer TP's Hyrule to WW's Great Ocean, but something might make me change my mind

You don't get to call Epona freely (with the Horse whistle) until damn near the end of the game.

Until then you have to be a wolf or hotfoot to anywhere you want to go, even between places where the Horse whistlegrass grows.

The horse whistle is one of the most useless items ever. By the time you get it you've found all the warp spots so you're jumping all over the place. Good thing I liked running around on foot and exploring a well crafted but barren landscape.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Wind Waker could be amazing on Wii U. Touch screen as ocean map, with the ability to draw your path like in PH :drool

Wind Waker would be great with the M+ controls. Like GrotesqueBeauty said a directors cut with the missing dungeons and balanced difficulty.

Can't believe Nintendo didn't think about this because they have a incredible void of quality releases and Wii U seems set to arrive in 3rd or 4th quarter of 2012.

 

[MisterHero]

The horse whistle is one of the most useless items ever. By the time you get it you've found all the warp spots so you're jumping all over the place. Good thing I liked running around on foot and exploring a well crafted but barren landscape.

Definitely, Hyrule Field still held a few neat secrets (like the Sliding Ice puzzle cave). As did Gerudo Desert which I learned to enjoy with a stolen Giant Boar.

 

[butter_stick]

Wind Waker would be great with the M+ controls. Like GrotesqueBeauty said a directors cut with the missing dungeons and balanced difficulty.

Can't believe Nintendo didn't think about this because they have a incredible void of quality releases and Wii U seems set to arrive in 3rd or 4th quarter of 2012.

I'd rather it just stick to the same control scheme with easy to implement gimmicks, a'la OoT 3DS. I want an enhanced rerelease not a remake, personally.