I don't see the problem, using gimbaled weapons already bumps the max size of them down by one, so someone playing with HOTAS would have more powerful fire. Also, usually when I see videos on youtube of people dominating in Arena Commander, they seem to be people who use HOTAS, often with TrackIR.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting
- Thread starter MrBig
- Start date
- Status
Teknopathetic
Member
"I don't see the problem, using gimbaled weapons already bumps the max size of them down by one, so someone playing with HOTAS would have more powerful fire. Also, usually when I see videos on youtube of people dominating in Arena Commander, they seem to be people who use HOTAS, often with TrackIR."
Doing some damage is better than doing no damage. Having less powerful weapons isn't really a drawback if you're capable of hitting with those weaker weapons *significantly* more frequently. The accuracy of a mouse (as expected) far outweighs the lower potential damage. And TrackIR obviously helps (since it's more like a pointing device), but that's still kind of a moot point because that's even more of an investment to compete with a mouse. Even ignoring the cost aspect, a game that's just about pointing cursors at each other and circle strafing isn't particularly interesting.
Doing some damage is better than doing no damage. Having less powerful weapons isn't really a drawback if you're capable of hitting with those weaker weapons *significantly* more frequently. The accuracy of a mouse (as expected) far outweighs the lower potential damage. And TrackIR obviously helps (since it's more like a pointing device), but that's still kind of a moot point because that's even more of an investment to compete with a mouse. Even ignoring the cost aspect, a game that's just about pointing cursors at each other and circle strafing isn't particularly interesting.
I agree, but we are now at AC 1.1 and we still have the same controls... I guess they are afraid to piss off mouse players!?
Same? Define same.
Btw mouse and keyboard will be dominant input device in the game, it cant be artificially restricted, because it wont feel right.
And this guy not only had no problem killing mouse players, but also much 'better' ships:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMGRIpUbO8
Teknopathetic
Member
"And this guy not only had no problem killing mouse players, but also much 'better' ships:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMGRIpUbO8"
While I love myself a good frag video, they're a collection of cherry picked situations and should be recognized as such. Furthermore, quite a lot of those frags are the result of using missiles, which means their opponent either couldn't avoid them (was out of chaff/flares) or didn't bother using them (not good players). Some of those players don't even seem like they're aware they're being shot at.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMGRIpUbO8"
While I love myself a good frag video, they're a collection of cherry picked situations and should be recognized as such. Furthermore, quite a lot of those frags are the result of using missiles, which means their opponent either couldn't avoid them (was out of chaff/flares) or didn't bother using them (not good players). Some of those players don't even seem like they're aware they're being shot at.
Anton Sugar
Member
Do you mind explaining this point? What do you mean by artificially restricted?
He has more of videos on his channel though.
----
I dont know what this means, i think the input should be one to one, but some people think its not that fair in comparison to other input devices.
Teknopathetic
Member
"He has more of videos on his channel though."
Doesn't really refute my point.
"I dont know what this means, i think the input should be one to one, but some people think its not that fair in comparison to other input devices."
People don't think gimbals should be controlled manually, it's not about artificially restricting mouse input.
Doesn't really refute my point.
"I dont know what this means, i think the input should be one to one, but some people think its not that fair in comparison to other input devices."
People don't think gimbals should be controlled manually, it's not about artificially restricting mouse input.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
Fuck no. It's bad enough with a permanently lowered tier weapon. If you feel like you don't match up, disengage and retreat. Adapt. I've had to do when I played against a squirrely player in an m50: I stuck to the asteroid/debris fields in Broken Moon and landed pinpoint shots across the debris.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Fuck no. It's bad enough with a permanently lowered tier weapon. If you feel like you don't match up, disengage and retreat. Adapt. I've had to do when I played against a squirrely player in an m50: I stuck to the asteroid/debris fields in Broken Moon and landed pinpoint shots across the debris."
Putting words in your mouth for a second: You were being outflown and killed them regardless of that because of gimballed weapons accuracy is what you're saying? I don't really agree that's the way it should be in a space combat game.
Putting words in your mouth for a second: You were being outflown and killed them regardless of that because of gimballed weapons accuracy is what you're saying? I don't really agree that's the way it should be in a space combat game.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
Because I could deflect his shots and negate his superior speed by taking advantage of the environment as shielding, and the accuracy of gimbals. Out in the open, he would do fast fly-bys and shred my ship. I adapted. That's what a space sim should be.
Zalusithix
Member
I think this will be less of an issue with multi-crew ships. The main pilot can be piloting the ship via HOTAS and reap all the control benefits that provides while other people man the gimbals/turrets via mouse. Best of both worlds. =)
Teknopathetic
Member
"Because I could deflect his shots and negate his superior speed by taking advantage of the environment as shielding, and the accuracy of gimbals. Out in the open, he would do fast fly-bys and shred my ship. I adapted. That's what a space sim should be."
That's not adapting. That's the game enabling players to comfortably ignore piloting skills while...piloting space ships.
That's not adapting. That's the game enabling players to comfortably ignore piloting skills while...piloting space ships.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
Now you're just spinning your wheels.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Now you're just spinning you wheels."
I know it sounds like I'm belittling your achievement, but your scenario is one where a player is constantly outmaneuvering the other and loses because the worse pilot could aim his guns independently and place his cursor where the game told him to place it.
I know it sounds like I'm belittling your achievement, but your scenario is one where a player is constantly outmaneuvering the other and loses because the worse pilot could aim his guns independently and place his cursor where the game told him to place it.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
With a tracking pip, it's the opposite: I just get a readout of where my shots will land and I have to aim as best as I can. A leading reticle takes the fun out of it, I admit. That was the problem with Freelancer.
It sounds to me like you're not skillful enough to win over gimbals. A fluid, more versatile movement is the Joysticks advantage. Precise, responsive accuracy is the advantage of gimbals in M&KB's. Choose your own and press it, because it's a matter of preference at this point.
staticneuron
Member
It is a RPS design because the fixed weapons are more powerful while the gimbaled weapons are supposed to sacrifice power for accuracy.
But being honest here, there are ships in AC who's main purpose is NOT battle and is more racing/exploration/trading therefore it wouldn't make sense for all of them to seem completely balanced in AC.
Teknopathetic
Member
"With a tracking pip, it's the opposite: I just get a readout of where my shots will land and I have to aim as best as I can. A leading reticle takes the fun out of it, I admit. That was the problem with Freelancer.
It sounds to me like you're not skillful enough to win over gimbals. A fluid, more versatile movement is the Joysticks advantage. Precise, responsive accuracy is the advantage of gimbals in M&KB's. Choose your own and press it, because it's a matter of preference at this point."
Precise and responsive accuracy wins out over fluid, versatile movement. The goal in a dogfight is to kill your opponent, which means landing shots. Furthermore, a mouse is still a quite capable input method for piloting ships in space sims. A joystick is not even remotely a capable pointing device. It can't even function as a pointing device while also manually controlling gimbals like a mouse can (nor would I want it to). The advantages of a mouse far outweigh the disadvantages, which is why you were able to actually retreat from a better pilot and then kill him. Because it was far more difficult for him to land shots on you, not because you're a tactical genius.
It sounds to me like you're not skillful enough to win over gimbals. A fluid, more versatile movement is the Joysticks advantage. Precise, responsive accuracy is the advantage of gimbals in M&KB's. Choose your own and press it, because it's a matter of preference at this point."
Precise and responsive accuracy wins out over fluid, versatile movement. The goal in a dogfight is to kill your opponent, which means landing shots. Furthermore, a mouse is still a quite capable input method for piloting ships in space sims. A joystick is not even remotely a capable pointing device. It can't even function as a pointing device while also manually controlling gimbals like a mouse can (nor would I want it to). The advantages of a mouse far outweigh the disadvantages, which is why you were able to actually retreat from a better pilot and then kill him. Because it was far more difficult for him to land shots on you, not because you're a tactical genius.
The Dear Leader
Banned
Finally got into a full free flight game, everyone in Gladius' and Avengers were picking on the poor Mustang Alpha pilot so I helped him out and blew them up with my Hornet, what a fun time killer that was.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
Lol, why you mad though? I can be beaten by more skillful pilots in open flight, and I have to resort to contrived environmental maneuvers to balance it. I've seen some crazy maneuvers with a 'stick and what I assume is COMSTAB set to off. If you feel like you're in a disadvantaged position by using a joystick, you're free to do so. It might just be you falling short by choosing to use a joystick and not being good enough.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Lol, why you mad though? I can be beaten by more skillful pilots in open flight, and I have to resort to contrived environmental maneuvers to balance it. I've seen some crazy maneuvers with a 'stick and what I assume is COMSTAB set to off. If you feel like you're in a disadvantaged position by using a joystick, you're free to do so. It might just be you falling short by choosing to use a joystick and not being good enough."
Making constant attacks on what you perceive to be my skill level isn't a counterpoint towards the very obvious input advantage mice have currently.
Making constant attacks on what you perceive to be my skill level isn't a counterpoint towards the very obvious input advantage mice have currently.
I'd have to agree. Having used both it seems the mouse has a rather large advantage, not unlike using a mouse vs. a controller in a fps. That advantage only seems to be taken down if the Hotas user is also using an Oculus Rift or possibly TrackIR.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
It's not such a great advantage that it would require the removal of gimbals. And forgive me if I sounded like I was attacking you. To put it more succinctly, I feel like you are trying to justify your piloting skills by considering M&KB unfair, or at least, exaggerating their advantage.
staticneuron
Member
So it is a bad idea to get joystiqs for the game? This raises an interesting question for me. Anybody play an flight sim or battle game and using the mouse is better? Or is this something that is related to AC as how it is designed now?
It's mostly due to gimbaled weapons.
Dictator93
Member
I fly a joystick and throttle and absolutely adore it. The throttle gives you so much more control over speeds than wasd ever could.
That does not mean mice are currently at an advtange in the meta though. Give it time, i expect more mouse nerfs to come in the future.
That does not mean mice are currently at an advtange in the meta though. Give it time, i expect more mouse nerfs to come in the future.
staticneuron
Member
What about controllers. Where do controllers sit in this comparison?
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Controllers have a similar balance with HOTAS but with the slight edge going to the stick since a lot of them offer a larger amount of controls to configure. The gamepad works, but it's probably going to become awkward as more systems are added to the game. Both are still at a disadvantage against the mouse.
I'd definitely say that flying with a Hotas is more fun. However, if you want to win fights then mouse is the better option.
I'm thinking of experimenting and hacking up a throttle to include an analogue stick. Not as good as a mouse but potentially a good hybrid.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I'm thinking of experimenting and hacking up a throttle to include an analogue stick. Not as good as a mouse but potentially a good hybrid."
The CH Pro Throttle already has an analog stick, unless you were just going to use one you had lying around and didn't want to spend more.
The CH Pro Throttle already has an analog stick, unless you were just going to use one you had lying around and didn't want to spend more.
Unbound By Death
Member
Yep just use a torrent. Someone posted one in the robertsspaceindustries forum.
I'm talking of a *good* analogue/thumb stick, not the crappy ones that are usually placed on the throttles.
You know that the CH Pro Throttle Analog stick is a full 360 degree analog stick, and not a hat right?
Teknopathetic
Member
"I'm talking of a *good* analogue/thumb stick, not the crappy ones that are usually placed on the throttles."
It's not a mouse-emulation nub, like on the Saitek throttles. It's a proper (pretty decent, actually) stick.
It's not a mouse-emulation nub, like on the Saitek throttles. It's a proper (pretty decent, actually) stick.
Ah. If it feels good and is responsive it is something to consider. Alas CH stuff is hard to get.
I was (and probably still am) going to munge a 360 stick into an x45 throttle.
Unbound By Death
Member
Dev Luke Hatton comments on why there is sound in space:
TL;DR All sound we hear is simulated in-space, we won't hear sound while doing EVA, and we can turn it off.
In roberts we trust.
So here I am flying in free flight as usual and messing around with decoupled mode because people recommend move your space craft in for landing and this happened.
As you can see I'm throttled to 0% but moving 150m/s with coupled on. It's like someone cut my brake line and rigged the throttle. lol I had to crash into an asteroid to stop it.
As you can see I'm throttled to 0% but moving 150m/s with coupled on. It's like someone cut my brake line and rigged the throttle. lol I had to crash into an asteroid to stop it.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I never played Star Citizen, but I had to retire my joystick for most PC games. They never seem to get the controls right.
But thats actually artificially restricting options and it wont work, because in multi-crew ships You will have a pilot and a gunner and there You cant block mouse control of weapons.
Disadvantage of piloting with mouse and shooting is that You have worse control over ship when You are aiming with weapon though and i think this will balance it out.
We still dont know what Electronic Warfare will be like.
So here I am flying in free flight as usual and messing around with decoupled mode because people recommend move your space craft in for landing and this happened.
As you can see I'm throttled to 0% but moving 150m/s with coupled on. It's like someone cut my brake line and rigged the throttle. lol I had to crash into an asteroid to stop it.
why didn't you press "S" ?
The Dear Leader
Banned
So here I am flying in free flight as usual and messing around with decoupled mode because people recommend move your space craft in for landing and this happened.
As you can see I'm throttled to 0% but moving 150m/s with coupled on. It's like someone cut my brake line and rigged the throttle. lol I had to crash into an asteroid to stop it.
Try pressing 'S' to lower throttle or hold the space bar for the space brake.
Dictator93
Member
So here I am flying in free flight as usual and messing around with decoupled mode because people recommend move your space craft in for landing and this happened.
As you can see I'm throttled to 0% but moving 150m/s with coupled on. It's like someone cut my brake line and rigged the throttle. lol I had to crash into an asteroid to stop it.
Look in your options, you are flying a HOTAS I assume?
Unbind all decoupled mode / coupled mode strafing: One of your dials on your hotas is probably dialed forward or backward and you are not seeing it. Also look in your HOTAS config to see if everything is centered / at its middle point.
--------------
Crytek is currently looking for a Senior Rendering Engineer. From what I understand, Nicolas Schulz always had this position before. I would imagine he is now at CIG in Frankfurt. That would line up with comments from CR about having "world class talent" at the Frankfurt studio.
- Status