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Star Wars: The Old Republic [Releasing Date: Dec 20 NA/EU - NDA Lifted]

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Giolon

Giolon

Member
Great post on Class/Advanced Class choice by the Lead Combat Designer:

GeorgZoeller said:
Hey guys,

Because the Dev Tracker is a bit wonky again and doesn't show my post, and because translating my English post to German and then back to English isn't producing the most reliable results (Oh god, they did what???), here's the Class Design Philosophy post again, in original source:

"Just to chime in about our class design philosophy here. We've explained this a number of times already during development, but now that we've been running large scale testing for a while and have solidified a lot of the design, I think it's time to explain what we're doing and why.

In regards to class roles, we do things differently than some other games which people might be used to. That creates some anxiety and questions, so let me explain.

Of Class, Advanced Class, Roles.

Unlike other games where you pick a class and that defines your role, class in Star Wars: The Old Republic defines your overall story, your possible roles and your visual style / gameplay style (e.g. Force user vs. Tech user).

Due to the nature of the Advanced Class system, every character starts out in a DPS role at the start of the game, and they're about equally good at it.

By the time you reach level 10, you get to make your choice for Advanced Class, which narrows down which roles you could play, and yes, some Advanced Classes (Gunslinger / Sniper / Marauder / Sentinel) only have damage type roles available, while other Advanced Classes have access to two roles (e.g damage or healing).

What actually defines your role in our game, in terms of traditional MMO gaming, is how you distribute points in your skill trees. Specialize in the 'Combat Medic' tree and become a healer, specialize in the 'Vengeance tree' and become a DPS character.

By spending that first skill point at level 10, you start developing your character into whatever role you want them to play in the long term. Since it's your skill choices that define your role, it is a gradual process. You don't become a healer at level 10 or 11, you're growing into becoming a healer over many levels.

Our content is designed around that. The first Flashpoint assumes the group has only DPS roles. Even if you bring a healer, he'll have only a single heal available at that level as he has just begun his journey into his role, so there isn't too much of a spread in balance.

Over time, the game becomes more firm in the roles it requires for content like Flashpoints, but additional tools like companions still make it more flexible than many other MMOs in regards to what group mix can run group content.

That progression is quite different from how your characters work in other games, and we've certainly seen our share of people being surprised by it in testing ("I just took the Sage Advanced Class, but I don't feel like I'm a great healer").

Hybrids

Ultimately we don't do hybrid roles. You can do them (by mixing different skill trees), but by design, all our classes are meant to be fully capable in the roles they fill. The 'hybrid' tax would be the fact that you won't be able to get the top tier talents in one skill tree if you spread yourself too thin into others.

At high level, all roles have the same capabilities, in our game all healers are 'main healers' provided they are specced accordingly, etc.

Common Questions

So, what's the point of playing an AC that has only DPS options available?

That is a question you have to answer for yourself.

In a traditional fantasy MMO, if you play a thief or a wizard, you're locked to one role as well, so it's the added role flexibility that SWTOR brings to the table that is giving you second thoughts. I would look at it like this:

If you really like the flexibility of non DPS roles and feel comfortable with taking on other roles, you might want to play an AC that has that option available.

If you know you only enjoy DPS roles in a game (and based on our research, a sizable faction of players falls under that umbrella), a DPS only AC means you will get a three different styles of dps gameplay to select from.

So why do we do this? Why not go for a 'this Advanced Class only can DPS and therefore they are the best at it' approach?

Because we want people to pick the class they want to play and reduce the likelihood of them getting told 'sorry, can't participate in this group because we want only the best DPS in game - that is a Gunslinger'.
Likewise, we don't want the fact that a specific tank or healer AC is not available at a time from becoming a stopping point for getting on with your group content.

The truth is, not everyone is comfortable playing every role and shouldn't be expected to.

Players, as they get more familiar with the game, will no doubt find interesting ways of proving the superiority of a specific specialization in a specific situation, that's expected. With different gameplay styles and utility come different strength and weaknesses.

Should things outside our comfort zone be discovered in testing or after launch (e.g. Operations ending up requiring that one specific healer AC because they are deemed 'the absolute best and a must'), we will adjust the game accordingly. We want player skill to be deciding factor in your choices, not which class they picked hundreds of hours ago. That's pretty standard for MMOs.

TL;DR

Q: 'Why would I play a DPS only Advanced Class if I can play an Advanced Class that can respec to fill other roles?'
A: If that is your main concern, you shouldn't play that Advanced Class, because you are going to be unhappy about the fact that you cannot switch roles.

Q: Since I can only fill a DPS role, I should do the absolute best damage in the game!
A: Not in SWTOR. We give you get more variety in your DPS gameplay. We maintain balance between all ACs that can fill a role.

Q: What ever happened to being 5% better thing for pure DPS classes?
A: Given class utility and other considerations of why you might want to have someone in your group, 5% is not considered 'significant' for the purpose of this conversation.

I hope this clears things up a bit. I'm sure there'll be plenty of different and, of course, dissenting opinions on this topic, but at least everyone will be on the same page as what our design goals are in this situation and how we approach balancing classes."

Source
Click to expand...
 
A

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I just got an invite! (Well, the email is actually timestamped about 2 and a half hours ago) Keep hope alive!
 
K

Ketch

Member
BattleMonkey said:
You can still do this. The ability is in your ability list and not given to your automatically. I found it in my list of abilities by accident and put it on my hotbar. Just press it and it shows you in grey possible cover locations

You still have full control of where you take cover, you just have to do it manually. They are just streamlining how cover works for quicker play

Not sure what you are talking about with it forcing you to take cover. If I want to deploy my own cover I just press the button and it does it, I have to choose the take cover button to go into natural cover positions. I never had it force me to go to either one, you got two hotbar buttons that will put you different cover
Click to expand...

Except, "Take portable cover" is no longer an ability you can activate... it's a passive, and you will automatically use the portable cover if you aren't highlighting a natural cover position. However, if you are highlighting a natural cover position you will automatically take cover there... gone is the option of using portable cover if there is a natural cover position shown on your screen.

I had to disable "Show cover positions" because it highlights all the natural cover positions thus constantly forcing me into cover in places I didn't want to be.

Edit: Also, you probably didn't do it on purpose, but you shouldn't quote half a sentence and respond to it out of context.
 
F

fizzelopeguss

Banned
5560R.jpg
 
B

BattleMonkey

Member
EasyTGT said:
Except, "Take portable cover" is no longer an ability you can activate... it's a passive, and you will automatically use the portable cover if you aren't highlighting a natural cover position. However, if you are highlighting a natural cover position you will automatically take cover there... gone is the option of using portable cover if there is a natural cover position shown on your screen.

I had to disable "Show cover positions" because it highlights all the natural cover positions thus constantly forcing me into cover in places I didn't want to be.

Edit: Also, you probably didn't do it on purpose, but you shouldn't quote half a sentence and respond to it out of context.
Click to expand...

I see. But you can basically tell it to go to port cover when you want by just deploying a new port cover. The time to put down port cover is about same as rolling into one already placed.
 
C

cartridge

Banned
Did anyone here play Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight? It's one of my favorite Star Wars games of all time along side the original KotOR. I've wanted Lucas to revive the series in the form of an RPG for a long time, and maybe contract Human Head or id for development. Would you guys buy that? A first-person Star Wars: Jedi Knight RPG with the graphics of RAGE or Prey 2?
 
W

Won

Member
So, what's the point of playing an AC that has only DPS options available?

That is a question you have to answer for yourself.



Q: 'Why would I play a DPS only Advanced Class if I can play an Advanced Class that can respec to fill other roles?'
A: If that is your main concern, you shouldn't play that Advanced Class, because you are going to be unhappy about the fact that you cannot switch roles.
Click to expand...

That are pretty weak answers. :/
 
E

Emitan

Member
cartridge said:
Did anyone here play Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight? It's one of my favorite Star Wars games of all time along side the original KotOR. I've wanted Lucas to revive the series in the form of an RPG for a long time, and maybe contract Human Head or id for development. Would you guys buy that? A first-person Star Wars: Jedi Knight RPG with the graphics of RAGE or Prey 2?
Click to expand...
I loved Jedi Academy. I'd kill someone for an RPG based around those games
 
MaddenNFL64

MaddenNFL64

Member
Hmm. They said they don't check specs, but my pc sucks balls (I really have to upgrade before this game comes out, lots of time though), and no invite yet.

For the best I guess. I think I should just pull out of the testing waiting list.

/pout
 
MaddenNFL64

MaddenNFL64

Member
Won said:
That are pretty weak answers. :/
Click to expand...

It's actually a strong answer. There's nothing else to say if you want to be blunt about it, which Zoeller has no problem doing.

If you want to dps, and only dps, without the ability to tank or heal, you become a gunslinger, sniper, marauder, or sentinel. It doesn't give you any supreme advantage in dps over other classes, just the ability to switch between a different style of damage. No one can ask you to switch to healer, or tank. You are what you are, a damage dealer, and always a damage dealer.


I was a stubborn Monk in FFXI, and i'll deal with the same shit I always do. Bottom of the totem pole when it comes to parties.
 
MaddenNFL64

MaddenNFL64

Member
Fox the Sly said:
You must mean pre-2006 Monk. :p
Click to expand...

Well, it has nice utility in Sky with the /white mage & chi blast stuff, but I mean, competing with jobs that could out spike me, eh. Monks were alright tho.

I always had envy for the Samurai man, those guys got crazy good.
 
Meicyn

Meicyn

Gold Member
Fox the Sly said:
You must mean pre-2006 Monk. :p
Click to expand...
Those earlier days sucked hard. It always pissed me off how the invites for monk ran dry pre-60 because you couldn't participate in a distortion skill chain and everyone wanted to do them in parties back when black mages were considered integral to a party and insisted on being able to magic burst off of it.
 
MaddenNFL64

MaddenNFL64

Member
Sigfodr said:
We were all thinking it.

Edit: Are there only three droid companions? I am so depressed.
Click to expand...

6 I think. The ship droids are actual companions you talk to, and use for crafting. They don't fight though.

So 3 fighting companions, the ship droid on both sides make 5, and...

And a secret companion, HK-51 from KOTOR 2.
 
E

Effect

Member
I wonder if there will be a problem with to many people playing Jedi/Sith compare to the other classes.

Starting to change my mind about trying this even though I had sworn off mmos for a while.
 
A

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
MaddenNFL64 said:
It's actually a strong answer. There's nothing else to say if you want to be blunt about it, which Zoeller has no problem doing.

If you want to dps, and only dps, without the ability to tank or heal, you become a gunslinger, sniper, marauder, or sentinel. It doesn't give you any supreme advantage in dps over other classes, just the ability to switch between a different style of damage. No one can ask you to switch to healer, or tank. You are what you are, a damage dealer, and always a damage dealer.


I was a stubborn Monk in FFXI, and i'll deal with the same shit I always do. Bottom of the totem pole when it comes to parties.
Click to expand...


I think it's a pretty reasonable answer as well. It's actually almost exactly like the current state of WoW. Pure DPS classes don't really have a higher dps potential across the board than the DPS specs of hybrid classes, what they do have is 3 distinct damage specs to play with instead of the 1 or 2 of hybrid classes. I think it's really the only viable option for a class/spec based game that adheres to the tank/dps/heal structure.
 
B

BattleMonkey

Member
Effect said:
I wonder if there will be a problem with to many people playing Jedi/Sith compare to the other classes.

Starting to change my mind about trying this even though I had sworn off mmos for a while.
Click to expand...

How is it a problem? Amongst the Sith, Jedi, 8 advanced class combos, you basically got every role in a MMO covered.
 
R

Rapstah

Member
I thought I had signed up for the beta list but I hadn't! Do you think they'll still consider me for EU invites or is it a come-first-served-first type of priority thing?
 
D

DimmuBurgerKing

Member
BattleMonkey said:
How is it a problem? Amongst the Sith, Jedi, 8 advanced class combos, you basically got every role in a MMO covered.
Click to expand...

I love that about the way the classes are set up. In theory, you could viably have a party of Jedi Knights and Consulars, or even a full squad of Troopers. The latter actually sounds pretty damned awesome now that I think about it.
 
S

syko de4d

Member
DimmuBurgerKing said:
I love that about the way the classes are set up. In theory, you could viably have a party of Jedi Knights and Consulars, or even a full squad of Troopers. The latter actually sounds pretty damned awesome now that I think about it.
Click to expand...
RP Guild only with Jedi´s or Sith´s, awesome ^^
 
G

Gvaz

Banned
The problem with dps classes where you can't change their class, is that none of them have high dps to make up for not being able to change.

Last I checked Jedi Sentinel did shit dps and had almost zero pvp utility in the 20s, getting beat out by your fucking shadow companion AI even if you have your rotation down pat. It's what I wanted to main cause it's like a rogue but if that's the case I'd rather have something with more utility instead.
 
B

BattleMonkey

Member
DimmuBurgerKing said:
I love that about the way the classes are set up. In theory, you could viably have a party of Jedi Knights and Consulars, or even a full squad of Troopers. The latter actually sounds pretty damned awesome now that I think about it.
Click to expand...

Yea I'm hoping someone sets up an actual 501st guild in the game of just troopers
 
K

Ketch

Member
BattleMonkey said:
But you can basically tell it to go to port cover when you want by just deploying a new port cover.
Click to expand...

The whole point of what I'm saying is: In the new system you can't "just deploy new port cover". It's all combined to the same skill now.

So if you want to deploy port cover and there's natural cover near by, then you can't deploy portable cover - you automatically go to the natural cover -

I'm guessing you're having a hard time understanding because it makes no sense, but I kid you not, you can no longer drop portable cover whenever you want.
 
S

Sophia

Member
DimmuBurgerKing said:
I love that about the way the classes are set up. In theory, you could viably have a party of Jedi Knights and Consulars, or even a full squad of Troopers. The latter actually sounds pretty damned awesome now that I think about it.
Click to expand...

We had two Jedi Knights (both tanks) and Two Troopers (both healers) in a party earlier. It was awesome.
 
MaddenNFL64

MaddenNFL64

Member
DimmuBurgerKing said:
I love that about the way the classes are set up. In theory, you could viably have a party of Jedi Knights and Consulars, or even a full squad of Troopers. The latter actually sounds pretty damned awesome now that I think about it.
Click to expand...

You can do that but ya gotta remember all the classes get a stat perk you can add to your whole party. They will not stack with the same class. For the min/max assholes you will want all 4 class (or I should say archetypes) for max stat potential.

I forgot what they were, but it's like smugglers give +5% crit. Similar boosts for other classes, but 2 smugglers in a party means only one of them gets to boost the party. No stacking.
 
B

BattleMonkey

Member
EasyTGT said:
The whole point of what I'm saying is: In the new system you can't "just deploy new port cover". It's all combined to the same skill now.

So if you want to deploy port cover and there's natural cover near by, then you can't deploy portable cover - you automatically go to the natural cover -

I'm guessing you're having a hard time understanding because it makes no sense, but I kid you not, you can no longer drop portable cover whenever you want.
Click to expand...

Hmm never had that happen, I will have to see if that happens for me as I am playing a IA mainly right now.

But why would you want portable cover? From my understanding natural cover provides higher defense than portable cover. Speed wise its about the same to go into either one, but I would imagine you would mostly want the higher defense bonus.
 
MaddenNFL64

MaddenNFL64

Member
EasyTGT said:
The whole point of what I'm saying is: In the new system you can't "just deploy new port cover". It's all combined to the same skill now.

So if you want to deploy port cover and there's natural cover near by, then you can't deploy portable cover - you automatically go to the natural cover -

I'm guessing you're having a hard time understanding because it makes no sense, but I kid you not, you can no longer drop portable cover whenever you want.
Click to expand...

Natural cover is much better. portable cover mitigates 20%, but not across the board, just when behind it.

If that is the new cover system, that is smart as fuck. What they need to do next is just make everything instant cast for the cover classes because it already on a timer: getting into fucking cover.

They do that and im sold.
 
K

Ketch

Member
MaddenNFL64 said:
If that is the new cover system, that is smart as fuck.
Click to expand...

Not when you want to take cover right here, and instead it makes your roll half way across the room and face the wrong direction. So then you have to get out of cover, back up, move to where you want to be and then... roll half way across the room again.

It was much better when you could choose to ignore the natural cover and use your portable cover whenever you wanted.
 
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