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Star Wars: The Old Republic [Releasing Date: Dec 20 NA/EU - NDA Lifted]
- Thread starter Blackface
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I'm not railing against classes in an MMO, to do so would be ridiculous. Classes are fine and inoffensive, a staple of any genre. Classless systems can be neat, but I don't expect MMOs to go to such great lengths to be original. I get my original games elsewhere. MMOs are more about social encounters and experimentation. And that in itself is fine.
Needless to say, yes, I have conceded that there are obvious differences between SWTOR and WoW. Never did I say otherwise. Where it emulates WoW so precisely is specifically in the combat encounters and structure of character optimization; that is what I've been discussing, that is where it so grossly adheres to an established structure. And to be honest, of all the things, that's the structure I want changed the most -- the underlying character roles and the feel of combat. The one thing SWTOR seems to have going for it is that it looks incrementally more engaging than other MMOs like WoW.
Basically, it goes back to the point regarding how it's hard for a lot of people to look at a snippet of combat gameplay from SWTOR and go "oh yeah wowwww that gets my boner going," because they've seen it all before.
We seem to be diverging on a key point. You concede that WoW and SWTOR are fundamentally similar, as I've been saying. We both concede that there are certainly additional features within SWTOR, interesting features, that differentiate itself from other MMOs. But where seem to differ is that SWTOR's similarity to WoW is understated to you, and overstated to me. For very specific reasons it seems; you have no problem with SWTOR adhering to existing tropes and concepts. Meanwhile, I yearn for something bold, something that hasn't been done before.
Really it seems we only disagree about how we feel about the game and what it's doing. I guess it goes back to the fact that I don't really like the fundamental gameplay of WoW all that much. So seeing a lot of the tropes recycled (at least partially) into SWTOR kinda stings.
Needless to say, yes, I have conceded that there are obvious differences between SWTOR and WoW. Never did I say otherwise. Where it emulates WoW so precisely is specifically in the combat encounters and structure of character optimization; that is what I've been discussing, that is where it so grossly adheres to an established structure. And to be honest, of all the things, that's the structure I want changed the most -- the underlying character roles and the feel of combat. The one thing SWTOR seems to have going for it is that it looks incrementally more engaging than other MMOs like WoW.
Basically, it goes back to the point regarding how it's hard for a lot of people to look at a snippet of combat gameplay from SWTOR and go "oh yeah wowwww that gets my boner going," because they've seen it all before.
We seem to be diverging on a key point. You concede that WoW and SWTOR are fundamentally similar, as I've been saying. We both concede that there are certainly additional features within SWTOR, interesting features, that differentiate itself from other MMOs. But where seem to differ is that SWTOR's similarity to WoW is understated to you, and overstated to me. For very specific reasons it seems; you have no problem with SWTOR adhering to existing tropes and concepts. Meanwhile, I yearn for something bold, something that hasn't been done before.
Really it seems we only disagree about how we feel about the game and what it's doing. I guess it goes back to the fact that I don't really like the fundamental gameplay of WoW all that much. So seeing a lot of the tropes recycled (at least partially) into SWTOR kinda stings.
If you had actually bothered to read my post you would have seen that I'm in agreement with most everyone else. I'm just trying to articulate the single point where we differ.Sullen said:
This whole conversation stems from others asking why this game doesn't strike that "chord of interest" within them.
fhtagn said:
How did you come to this conclusion. WOW is just EQ 2 with warcraft instead of everquest and EQ2 is just Everquest .
WOW brought nothing really new to the genre when it launched in 2004 it just polished what was there before it.
SWTOR has every chance to become as popular if not more popular than wow. Because TOR is taking what countless other games did and is refining it and making it better .
I got to play TOR at pax last weekend and if the content i played both origin worlds and the flash point is the quality of the rest of the game than its already better than wow is today.
Whats really great is that while your doing the leveling to the end game which is god awful boring on wow you are instead treated to amazing bioware story content. You know content like mass effect 1/2 , dragon age 1/2 , kotor all that content that gets 9-10 scores from all magazines.
See, I can see this working in action MMOs like Tera where there is no targetting (besides to see health/names) and only abilities/attacking based on where your character is and what ability you use. But not requiring a healer for a traditional, target-based MMO?czartim said:
I seriously doubt it. If you can beat things without a healer, eventually you won't need healers and will outgear instances, and thus all the people who DID spec to be a healer won't be needed. If you don't need a healer, how can you make encounters hard? "Don't stand in the fire" amplified times ten? Stand in an area you're not supposed to and you instantly die? Could be fun, but could also be aggravating and ultimately very repetitive. What other ways could you balance a fight and have it NOT be focused around group damage?
There needs to be a healer in a traditional MMO. Without it and the game becomes very one dimensional.
The story content does look especially good, I think that's probably what's going to draw me in. Group conversations with storyline NPCs has the potential to be hilarious.eastmen said:
And I mean, yeah, one could go back and say SWTOR is like EQ or Ultima. That's where those tropes began (well, probably further back, from the single-player RPGs of the 90s, which in turn got their concepts from pen and paper RPGs), certainly. I just feel like those tropes are tired today. They're tired to me at least. DCUO felt like a breath of fresh air when it came out, what with it's far more action-oriented combat. But really, it is all just a matter of opinion.
I think this morsel of conversation is largely done now.
Speeding up out of combat recovery is a very, very good thing. Having to sit and eat/drink is fucking archaic, annoying and serves no purpose anymore. I remember when WoW came out and eating/drinking was one of the huge improvements it made on EQ. The bar has moved though and even that much down time in between fights doesn't make sense anymore.
Also, I wanted SWTOR to be a big budget SWG 2.0. I wanted it to be the game that moved the genre forward in a big way, that showed everyone you didn't have to be WoW in order to be successful. SWTOR is not that game, SWTOR has a massive budget and EA doesn't want to take much risk, understandably. The sooner we accept that SWTOR is a variation on WoW, the happier we'll be. It took me awhile but I finally accepted that fact and I'm looking forward to it again.
Also, I wanted SWTOR to be a big budget SWG 2.0. I wanted it to be the game that moved the genre forward in a big way, that showed everyone you didn't have to be WoW in order to be successful. SWTOR is not that game, SWTOR has a massive budget and EA doesn't want to take much risk, understandably. The sooner we accept that SWTOR is a variation on WoW, the happier we'll be. It took me awhile but I finally accepted that fact and I'm looking forward to it again.
its extremely fun. I got really lucky to be able to play the flash point and then origin worlds twice. The starting quests are repetative but the actual dialogue is alot of fun and the first levels go by really fast while your engrossed in the story.fhtagn said:
But what tropes will you replace them with. The FPS's tropes haven't really changed much since wolfenstien , sure you've added in jumping and the ability to look up and down. But the core game is still the same and is still played by tens of millions of players.
One of the most important aspects of the MMORPG that has been missing is the RP the role playing. Bioware seems to be the first that is trying to add it back into the game with its story lines and full voice over.
Remember wow has changed drasticly since launch and TOR will do the same. You get at least 8 really good story lines to follow I think that alone will get many to invest years into the game and by the time you've played through the classes that have interested you i'm sure that bioware will have more classes with more story for you to play.
Who wouldn't want to bring their friends into a bioware rpg
Healers will likely make things SIGNIFICANTLY easier. Noticed he said that you have to play smart to do it without them. I think they are trying to get away from the idea that healers are only there to heal, and not to join in on the fight.Einbroch said:
When your trying to roll a character 4-5 years after launch and there are no healers around, it's a bitch.
You can submit your new specs on their site.Dartastic said:
Here's the thing, though. Top end players will not bring healers because it can be done without them. So all those amazing players who are healers get left behind. I love healing and I'm a great MMO player. So there's no place for me in top-end raids?czartim said:
If you play an MMO and you're any good, you min-max. Why bring a healer when you don't need one? 25% extra DPS makes instances go way faster, and if you don't need that slot to be a healer, don't bring one.
It's not like I'm making final judgments on a game from ONE comment, but if this is true it does not bode well. It's the ideology that I don't like.
The_Inquisitor
Member
Einbroch said:
Hold on. I really think you're going to need at least a healer for the end game stuff. I'm wondering if the lack of need of a constant healer is more for your other quests you do.
As a big healer I hear you. But it might be night to contribute DPS to fight rather than just sit and spam. I think I am done w/ that after WoW.
The_Inquisitor
Member
czartim said:
That's what I figured as I said in my above post. You'll need specific classes for end-game stuff, but you won't be screwed necessarily in the leveling stuff if you're short a role.
Vlodril
Member
You are obviously going to need healers for all flashpoints. I don't think you ll see a shortage of need for them in the game.
I also feel the BW has played it alot safer than i would like but i am planning to get this game and if things go well going through 3-4 classes minimum. The potential was there for more though. Especially the space part is a pathetic effort which i can only attribute to their single player only experience so far because really its not a mmo experience. Just a single player mini game. Disappointing for me to say the least.
I also feel the BW has played it alot safer than i would like but i am planning to get this game and if things go well going through 3-4 classes minimum. The potential was there for more though. Especially the space part is a pathetic effort which i can only attribute to their single player only experience so far because really its not a mmo experience. Just a single player mini game. Disappointing for me to say the least.
BattleMonkey
Member
Flashpoints are also meant to be smaller affairs so I can see them making pure healers not as important, but I would rather go into an instance with a pure healer than without one. If they implement a hard mode version of flashpoints which it seems all MMO's are doing now like, I could see healers being required for those.
Also we have not seen raiding in the game yet, and I can guess that in raids healers will be extremely in demand.
Well that's pretty much the same thing. They don't have the resources for attempting a full scale space sim system so they just passed it along and went with something smaller scale.
I just hope that the space portion has a bit of depth involved such as being able to get new functions/upgrades for the ship for the space encounter, perhaps different difficulty levels with varying levels of rewards, etc. They already said you get special rewards for doing the space stuff, I just hope there is unique things to add to the space portion of the game and it's not something you do simply to get goodies for use in the ground portion.
They are likely to never make the space portion into anything sim like and people shouldn't expect that. Players can at least hope though that they do expand on what they have and add more depth to it, and also some form of MP component to the feature down the line.
Also we have not seen raiding in the game yet, and I can guess that in raids healers will be extremely in demand.
Vlodril said:
Well that's pretty much the same thing. They don't have the resources for attempting a full scale space sim system so they just passed it along and went with something smaller scale.
I just hope that the space portion has a bit of depth involved such as being able to get new functions/upgrades for the ship for the space encounter, perhaps different difficulty levels with varying levels of rewards, etc. They already said you get special rewards for doing the space stuff, I just hope there is unique things to add to the space portion of the game and it's not something you do simply to get goodies for use in the ground portion.
They are likely to never make the space portion into anything sim like and people shouldn't expect that. Players can at least hope though that they do expand on what they have and add more depth to it, and also some form of MP component to the feature down the line.
TDLink
Member
The space sections are being developed by Bioware's main studio in Edmonton, Alberta while most of the game's other content is being developed at Bioware's studio in Austin, Texas. Those are two different studios, sure, but they are both a part of Bioware (and in turn are both a part of Electronic Arts). It isn't like the space sections are being outsourced here. Everything is being done in house thus developing space combat does take resources (especially the vital resource of money) away from the rest of the game. That being said I don't really get the fuss over the space combat as I think it looks neat and I have always enjoyed games like Star Fox. That's just me though I guess.
TDLink said:
You need space content with a significant amount of depth over the long haul. :] Don't forget that a mmorpg should go on for years. What's in there will do for launch, but they will definitively have to expand on the space part with an expansion or free update as I can honestly expect it to get old given the fact that it's rather limited.
TDLink
Member
kitzkozan said:
I'm not convinced that we "needed" space combat. Most MMORPGs don't have it, most MMORPGs don't even have vehicular segments and/or missions (though I'm aware that WoW has started doing them in the last two years). I mean I get that space is a big part of star wars but I never really expected there to be space combat so I'm pleasantly surprised that there is (And I don't even know all of what that entails yet).
Correct me if I'm wrong (it's possible I missed a huge blowout of information on the space content), but at this point don't we barely know anything about the space content? Ie, we aren't really sure how much there is, what there is to it other than being a tunnel shooter, what is going on with upgrades and/or space missions, etc. I have no doubt it will be expanded upon in the future, when expansions for games happen usually everything is expanded on, which is the point. At the current time though I'm just not sure what exactly we are expecting to expand from as we barely know what is actually there and a lot of assumptions are being flung about. I do agree with prior posters though that even when an expansion for space content does occur it is extremely unlikely that the system will completely change (ie, become a space sim like some people seem to want).
Vlodril
Member
Battlegrounds are confirmed (there is a video about it too) unless you are talking about space still, where there isn't anything multiplayer confirmed.
As for space i am still not convinced that it would be such a big waste of resources. It is iconic to the IP and they allready made all the graphics for the ship's, space etc. Anyway as i said its the one thing that disappoints me. From what i have seen on the official forums the reception is split. Some like the tunnel, some don't mind it, some hate it.
As for space i am still not convinced that it would be such a big waste of resources. It is iconic to the IP and they allready made all the graphics for the ship's, space etc. Anyway as i said its the one thing that disappoints me. From what i have seen on the official forums the reception is split. Some like the tunnel, some don't mind it, some hate it.
BattleMonkey
Member
Vlodril said:
If they add MP portion to space, I would imagine it being coop more so than any type of pvp functionality.
BattleMonkey
Member
zmoney said:
Not at launch no, but they might make a client for MAC later on like EA did with Warhammer perhaps...
MaddenNFL64
Member
czartim said:
I think after recouping dev costs, they will def expand on a ton. A Star Wars MMO begs for multiplayer flight games. PVP dog fights & whatnot. Co-op the Star Fox style missions too
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MaddenNFL64
Member
Oh, and i'm getting this game damnit. FFXI was the only MMO I really played, and ya that game had cooldowns, but it was so different to WoW style MMO's. Played LOTRO for a month, and got bored.
But for TOR, the videos, and all the things i've seen, i'm just hooked. It's like those MMO games, but the ranged combat, the melee, the powers, shit is just engaging to my brain lol. The Star Wars & Bioware fan in me also enforces this, i'll admit. I'm a sucker for the Bioware dialogue tree, their way of story telling, From KOTOR, to ME & Dragon Age.
Oh, and seeing the snippets of Tatooine & Hoth got me extra jazzed. HUGE fucking planets, reading the major planets are Warcraft continent size? 7-9 WoW zones etc. I'm guessing that's big. There's about what, 20 planets so far, some are small like the origin worlds, and some are huge, like Alderaan.
But for TOR, the videos, and all the things i've seen, i'm just hooked. It's like those MMO games, but the ranged combat, the melee, the powers, shit is just engaging to my brain lol. The Star Wars & Bioware fan in me also enforces this, i'll admit
. I'm a sucker for the Bioware dialogue tree, their way of story telling, From KOTOR, to ME & Dragon Age.Oh, and seeing the snippets of Tatooine & Hoth got me extra jazzed. HUGE fucking planets, reading the major planets are Warcraft continent size? 7-9 WoW zones etc. I'm guessing that's big. There's about what, 20 planets so far, some are small like the origin worlds, and some are huge, like Alderaan.
Yeah, I try not to get myself hyped about games these days (leads to poor purchasing decisions), but I'm waining on this one. It doesn't help that I just went back and watched all six movies, the special features, played KOTOR again and am in the process of watching seasons one and two of Clone Wars.
Same, but I'll just stick with bootcamp until they do announce one. There's bound to be one eventually.Billychu said:
So eager to get my hands on the retail version of this. It seems like an age ago when I was installing KOTOR after reading the PC Gamer review and rushing out to buy it.
Question to those who know best: what have Bioware said about solo'ing this? I'm well aware that this is an MMO and despite not having much experience (see: none) in the genre I'm more than willing to give it a fair shake. But I'd love it if this could be solo'd to such an extent that it's effectively a singleplayer RPG and an MMO in one.
MaddenNFL64
Member
Arnie said:
You can solo in this game. Plus all the classes get an assortment of companions that you can partner with in the world to fight with you (one at a time), become friends, romance, or kill off like any other bioware game.
edit: check this Youtube channel out. http://www.youtube.com/user/KotorMMO
Most of the main TOR stuff. Can always search "swtor" or "old republic" in the search bar for more stuff.
BattleMonkey
Member
So when do we get a report on a MMO addict hurting himself or doing something rash over his in game companion cheating on them? (Bioware said it can happen)
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