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[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Anyone want to play? I tried some FG but everything was laggy. Want someone with a good connection at least.

I can play in a couple minutes.

 

[Astral/H3X]

I can play in a couple minutes.

Alright, room is up. I haven't played in quite a while (still need to get back in from when I was at AT for two weeks), so expect me to be rustier than usual.

I'm also trying to figure out Roy.

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

Anyone wants to play?

 

[Astral/H3X]

El timeo.

EDIT: Damn I was trying to time my Smash to get past your dodge and forgot to actually hold it haha.

Behold the mysterious "Hex" in it's wild habitat. A curious creature, it gets worse at a game the longer it plays.

 

[Nabster92]

You're right about air dodges, my bad, my brain went to melee/brawl frame data where they were mostly 4f. Still just as fast and better in nearly every way for a couple characters, but like I said Rosalina's not even close to the worst in that regard.

Saying you have another 42 frames to punish a blocked Luma Uair is pretty disingenuous when considering shieldstun, DI and general air control. The situations where blocking Luma will actually get you a punish are basically nonexistent against anyone competent, and if you miss that small window then she gets an even better option in Nair once Luma's back.

Relatively, Rosalina's not that bad. I just think being able to attack and evade with the same action is dumb. It's way dumber with some characters than it is with Rosalina, but I still think it's dumb with her.

Ok probably not the best way to punish it. Anyways, my point was that hitting someone far enough to not be in range to continue a combo shouldn't guarantee you a favorable position to follow up. At that point it's not that they have something that can attack and evade at the same time. It's just that they're in a position relative to you where they have a tool to safely back away from you and reset to neutral after conceding the stage position they just lost to you. What you gain from a hit like that is stage control over the spot you just fought in, not guaranteed pressure. If you hit someone into a position where they have better priority towards you than you do towards them, then that doesn't mean they should have that priority be nerfed to give you more follow up options.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

All I know about Roy is that he sacrifices spacing for ridiculous KO's, easy setups, and absurd jab.

 

[Shamrock7r]

GGs Namikaze

 

[backlot]

All I know about Roy is that he sacrifices spacing for ridiculous KO's, easy setups, and absurd jab.

All I know about Roy is YOLO fsmash.

 

[Astral/H3X]

All I know about Roy is that he sacrifices spacing for ridiculous KO's, easy setups, and absurd jab.

Yeah I still have a lot to learn, not only with Roy but of course the game itself.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

GGs Namikaze

GGs.

This is me here ------------------------ and you over here. The gap is only getting larger

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Still don't think I know how to play Lucas though.

Yeah I still have a lot to learn, not only with Roy but of course the game itself.

As much as I hate to unleash more Roy onto the world, his jab follows up into a grab at low percents and aerials at higher percents.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Still don't think I know how to play Lucas though.

I'll send you a few replays right now, that had some good moments where I think I used good decision making with Lucas

GGs.

This is me here ------------------------ and you over here. The gap is only getting larger

I don't think so at all. I think you have some tendencies that I've picked up on that help me to pick you off in certain situations.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

I'll send you a few replays right now, that had some good moments where I think I used good decision making with Lucas



I don't think so at all. I think you have some tendencies that I've picked up on that help me to pick you off in certain situations.

That is what I mean. You are able to read me better every time we play, and I don't k ow how to fix that.

 

[Karsticles]

How to play Lucas:
1) Spam wavelanded PK Fire until your opponent is closing in.
2) Go for a throw, Nair, or jump past your opponent.
3) Return to 1.

His neutral is pretty straightforward.

 

[Soul Lab]

How to play Lucas:
1) Spam wavelanded PK Fire until your opponent is closing in.
2) Go for a throw, Nair, or jump past your opponent.
3) Return to 1.

His neutral is pretty straightforward.

can you explain wavelanded?

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

Still looking for someone to play. Or for 2v2 if enough people are interested.

 

[Wyndstryker]

Killing a cpt falcon with 3 sweetspots in a row feels so good. Especially when he's been trying for the knee the whole match.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Sent you 4 replays Snacks

can you explain wavelanded?

I think he means when Lucas hits PK Fire in the air and he is pushed back. To an extent what he says is true. Short hop PK Fire, but in conjunction with his snake tether, is his bread and butter in controlling the pace. Most of the time, against a good player, neither will hit. I use them more to set up the opponent for something else, or to slow down the pace if I feel like I am getting my ass kicked.

I disagree with the rest though, to an extent. Nair and grab are both very dangerous and punishable if you whiff or nair is blocked. His Jab is actually a great setup and punishing move. His Dair is a really good tool to use instead of short hop nair, and it is more safe. Lucas requires a lot of thought in getting in close to the opponent and doing damage.

That is what I mean. You are able to read me better every time we play, and I don't k ow how to fix that.

I don't know if you notice, but one of the subtle things I do is move around, or throw out moves I am certain won't actually hit you. I do it though to try and mask what my next real attack is going to be, or to get you to do something. I would tell you to think outside the box, and start thinking of ways to control not just your character, but the opponent's as well. To give you an example, I know you like to come in from the air and come down with either your tongue move, or an aerial attack. Immedietly when you hit the ground, because of your little landing lag, you tend to throw out jabs right when you land. Knowing this, I would tend to bait you to attack from above and do as I said above. I would simply position myself behind you or slightly away from you to avoid the attacks and the jabs, and punish while you were in jab animation.

 

[Astral/H3X]

Still don't think I know how to play Lucas though.



As much as I hate to unleash more Roy onto the world, his jab follows up into a grab at low percents and aerials at higher percents.

Hey now I liked Roy back in melee. Is he like Capt Falcon right now? Where there's like a million of him online?

 

[Thulius]

Ok probably not the best way to punish it. Anyways, my point was that hitting someone far enough to not be in range to continue a combo shouldn't guarantee you a favorable position to follow up. At that point it's not that they have something that can attack and evade at the same time. It's just that they're in a position relative to you where they have a tool to safely back away from you and reset to neutral after conceding the stage position they just lost to you. What you gain from a hit like that is stage control over the spot you just fought in, not guaranteed pressure. If you hit someone into a position where they have better priority towards you than you do towards them, then that doesn't mean they should have that priority be nerfed to give you more follow up options.

Ideally, no one should be favored, but there are a number of matchups where the player who last landed a hit only has one reasonable option, and it's to wait and/or block.

Taking Yoshi as an example of what I'm talking about; he has an armored double jump, which is nuts, but once it's gone his recovery is garbage and he can't attack out of it without losing the armor. He has an air-ground command grab that he can use to change his momentum, but if you read it properly he gets punished hard. Mechanically, those are interesting defensive options with a pretty balanced risk/reward factor and very different use cases from the standard airdodge/double jump defenses.

But then... he also has amazing air control and a giant 3f Nair that's active forever and very difficult to punish with anything but a power shield. The risk/reward is now skewed heavily in his favor and basically the only reason he should ever not use it is if someone is approaching from directly above or below, which is a pretty easy situation to react to and his other defensive options cover those approaches perfectly. Of course there are some characters with aerials disjointed enough to challenge his Nair, but if you don't have that then uh, good luck! Stage positioning is nice and all but unless he's at kill %s then he's perfectly happy sitting on the ledge chucking eggs at you from offstage anyway, so...

I don't disagree with you at all regarding Rosalina as long as cases like Yoshi exist and I certainly wouldn't want to see her nerfed without changes to other characters. That doesn't mean I have to like the way things are now.

 

[Shin_Okita]

Out of ammo, i can play a few games! If youre still around

 

[MagiusNecros]

Even sadder: the day 1 tech is pretty much all there is. :/

Though he didn't list Dtilt, Utilt, Nair as a combo, and that is an important one.

I think I will stick with Bowser and Zard.

Roy is fun I guess.

 

[Shamrock7r]

I think I will stick with Bowser and Zard.

Roy is fun I guess.

Be a badass and become the best Ryu on here

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

Out of ammo, i can play a few games! If youre still around

Alright, I'll go set up a room.

 

[JulianImp]

Be a badass and become the best Ryu on here

I guess I could say I'm the best Pac-Man in here

Spoiler

by mere virtue of being the only one who plays him

, then.

 

[Shin_Okita]

Alright, I'll go set up a room

On my way, just getting something to drink!

 

[Shamrock7r]

I guess I could say I'm the best Pac-Man in here

Spoiler

by mere virtue of being the only one who plays him

, then.

Sir, I challenge you on that

 

[Karsticles]

I think I will stick with Bowser and Zard.

Roy is fun I guess.

I actually want to put some time into Charizard.

Where is your Dorf?

Be a badass and become the best Ryu on here

What is it with you and Ryu? Haha

I guess I could say I'm the best Pac-Man in here

Spoiler

by mere virtue of being the only one who plays him

, then.

Shamrock plays Pac-man.

Edit: beaten!

Ideally, no one should be favored, but there are a number of matchups where the player who last landed a hit only has one reasonable option, and it's to wait and/or block.

Taking Yoshi as an example of what I'm talking about; he has an armored double jump, which is nuts, but once it's gone his recovery is garbage and he can't attack out of it without losing the armor. He has an air-ground command grab that he can use to change his momentum, but if you read it properly he gets punished hard. Mechanically, those are interesting defensive options with a pretty balanced risk/reward factor and very different use cases from the standard airdodge/double jump defenses.

But then... he also has amazing air control and a giant 3f Nair that's active forever and very difficult to punish with anything but a power shield. The risk/reward is now skewed heavily in his favor and basically the only reason he should ever not use it is if someone is approaching from directly above or below, which is a pretty easy situation to react to and his other defensive options cover those approaches perfectly. Of course there are some characters with aerials disjointed enough to challenge his Nair, but if you don't have that then uh, good luck! Stage positioning is nice and all but unless he's at kill %s then he's perfectly happy sitting on the ledge chucking eggs at you from offstage anyway, so...

I don't disagree with you at all regarding Rosalina as long as cases like Yoshi exist and I certainly wouldn't want to see her nerfed without changes to other characters. That doesn't mean I have to like the way things are now.

That Nair also KOs.

He would be more bearable if you could ledge guard him, but Yoshi is one of the best at recovering high in the game.

can you explain wavelanded?

Hit forward + B, and then hold back within 1 frame. You will shoot back more.

Easy way to do it, which I have told Shamrock about twice, but he ignores me:
Set your C-Stick to "Specials".
Face right.
Jump.
Simultaneously hold RIGHT on the directional stick.
And hold LEFT on the C-Stick.

Check out how much Lucas fires back. Works with lots of characters.

Apparently,you can even waveland while grounded, though I haven't messed with it. Wavelanding is meh for Bowser and Mewtwo on the ground. I do it in the air with Mewtwo a lot, though.

 

[Shin_Okita]

Its lagging pretty bad,

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

That lag was not playable. I'll try one more but if it's the same I quit.

 

[JulianImp]

Sir, I challenge you on that

Awesome! We should play sometime then, since I'd definitely love picking up new ideas and tricks.

 

[Shin_Okita]

Yup, not playable!

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

Yeah, still terrible . We had a good connection last time so I don't know what causes it.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Awesome! We should play sometime then, since I'd definitely love picking up new ideas and tricks.

for sure. I can play a few now if you want

 

[Shin_Okita]

Not sre! Whats happenenin for glory seems fine! Maybe some server issue!!

 

[Cronox]

Just saw our boy Poltergust in a 2-Yoshi team at CEO on the stream. His team lost, but they were playing Mr. R and Anti...

 

[Shamrock7r]

Hit forward + B, and then hold back within 1 frame. You will shoot back more.

Easy way to do it, which I have told Shamrock about twice, but he ignores me:
Set your C-Stick to "Specials".
Face right.
Jump.
Simultaneously hold RIGHT on the directional stick.
And hold LEFT on the C-Stick.

Check out how much Lucas fires back. Works with lots of characters.

Apparently,you can even waveland while grounded, though I haven't messed with it. Wavelanding is meh for Bowser and Mewtwo on the ground. I do it in the air with Mewtwo a lot, though.

Just tried it out. Interesting, though I see it more as just a changeup more than anything. I will try to incorporate it.

 

[Karsticles]

Just tried it out. Interesting, though I see it more as just a changeup more than anything. I will try to incorporate it.

Yeah, you dont want to always do it, because it can fling you off stage and such. It is nice when you need space, though. Link also benefits a lot from it.

 

[Cronox]

Just tried it out. Interesting, though I see it more as just a changeup more than anything. I will try to incorporate it.

This is just b-sticking stuff, the same thing Lucas could do in Brawl. I thought everyone knew this, that no one was talking about it gave me the impression Lucas couldn't do it in Smash 4.

 

[Shamrock7r]

This is just b-sticking stuff, the same thing Lucas could do in Brawl. I thought everyone knew this, that no one was talking about it gave me the impression Lucas couldn't do it in Smash 4.

It's honestly something I've never done. I think it will work well for Lucas because I rarely use the cstick with him. Other characters though, particularly those that need cstick for tilt, it isn't worth it.

 

[JulianImp]

for sure. I can play a few now if you want

Sorry, but I'll pass for now. I've already played in the morning, and with an exam today and Chemistry coming up for next week I'm not in a position to overindulge in smashing right now.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I actually want to put some time into Charizard.

Where is your Dorf?

In the Dark World deciding on what custom moves to use.

I won't use Ryu. Nice try Sham.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

I don't know if you notice, but one of the subtle things I do is move around, or throw out moves I am certain won't actually hit you. I do it though to try and mask what my next real attack is going to be, or to get you to do something. I would tell you to think outside the box, and start thinking of ways to control not just your character, but the opponent's as well. To give you an example, I know you like to come in from the air and come down with either your tongue move, or an aerial attack. Immedietly when you hit the ground, because of your little landing lag, you tend to throw out jabs right when you land. Knowing this, I would tend to bait you to attack from above and do as I said above. I would simply position myself behind you or slightly away from you to avoid the attacks and the jabs, and punish while you were in jab animation.

Well I notice you move around a lot and throw out attacks, and it is even less predictable for me because of Lucas' and Ness' weird double jump. I don't know how I am supposed to control your movement if you are fine with staying on one side throwing out PK Fire with Lucas until I approach in some way. With Ness it is a little different. I tried just staying back and throwing eggs, and that seemed to work for a little. I try to mix up my landings a bit, and I have been going to the edge more often, but going to the edge is dangerous at kill % because your characters just need a grab and I am done. Going above is also dangerous because you just need an uair to win.

 

[Karsticles]

In the Dark World deciding on what custom moves to use.

I won't use Ryu. Nice try Sham.

Sword neutral B.
Default side B (exception: Jigglypuff, Yoshi, other jumpy characters; use the multihit version for them).
Dropkick down B.
Armored kill punch custom up B (so good).

There you go.

Well I notice you move around a lot and throw out attacks, and it is even less predictable for me because of Lucas' and Ness' weird double jump. I don't know how I am supposed to control your movement if you are fine with staying on one side throwing out PK Fire with Lucas until I approach in some way. With Ness it is a little different. I tried just staying back and throwing eggs, and that seemed to work for a little. I try to mix up my landings a bit, and I have been going to the edge more often, but going to the edge is dangerous at kill % because your characters just need a grab and I am done. Going above is also dangerous because you just need an uair to win.

Down B if he jumps. Ness is floaty, and you will probably recover before he can land.

 

[Cronox]

Reporting from the CEO stream, Zero couldn't quite carry HungryBox through doubles, lost to NAKAT/Nairo. Doesn't mean much though, I'm interested to see if anyone can beat Zero 1v1 tomorrow. With Diddy nerfed he'll be forced to use Sheik or maybe Captain Falcon/Roy in singles.

 

[Karsticles]

Reporting from the CEO stream, Zero couldn't quite carry HungryBox through doubles, lost to NAKAT/Nairo. Doesn't mean much though, I'm interested to see if anyone can beat Zero 1v1 tomorrow. With Diddy nerfed he'll be forced to use Sheik or maybe Captain Falcon/Roy in singles.

All that matters is we get Sakurai to watch high level Sheik play so she gets a needles nerf.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

Sword neutral B.
Default side B (exception: Jigglypuff, Yoshi, other jumpy characters; use the multihit version for them).
Dropkick down B.
Armored kill punch custom up B (so good).

There you go.


Down B if he jumps. Ness is floaty, and you will probably recover before he can land.

Or get a bair to the back

 

[Shamrock7r]

Or get a bair to the back

Or nair, or uair. I am an equal opportunity punisher

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

I always just do run forward, jump, PK Fire backwards then immediately reverse it and hold back again. Don't know anything about doing it forward then immediately holding back.

 

[Karsticles]

Or get a bair to the back

I can teleport to the ground safely vs. Shamrock, and I feel like your down B completes in just as much time. /shrug

I always just do run forward, jump, PK Fire backwards then immediately reverse it and hold back again. Don't know anything about doing it forward then immediately holding back.

B-stick it!