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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!

S

SolarKnight

Member
I haven't really been feeling like playing Smash much these past few days but I gotta get some more practice for Evo.

Anyone up for 1v1?
 
K

Karsticles

Member
I uploaded Namikaze's set with the Smashboards Mewtwo (Raykz), and about 12 matches between Nami and I. Feedback is appreciated.

Oh, and I am currently uploading the entire weird set all 4 of us had tonight, and an hour of For Glory play. Watch the For Glory play if you want to see an hour of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7_sqLSD2Bs

:p It'll probably be up by morning.
 
C

Cronox

Banned
I went to a very small (13 man) customs tournament today, got third place, losing to a Dedede and Little Mac. Since coming back from Europe I've been hesitant about taking advantage of dash slash, I think the gimmick arguments had gotten to me even as I defended the move here. After going to the tournament I'm on board with dash slash again. Bowser just needs it to be viable. And on a personal note, it makes him more fun to play. I want to play aggressive occasionally and don't want to play Charizard to do that as Karst recently suggested.

Back to Bowser - he has such bad frame data, such ridiculous lag after everything he does, has no combos, only one easily dodged throw followup... I'll take what I can get, and I am not going to feel guilty about it anymore. Dash slash gives him the air mobility he needs, at least minor combo potential, and the ability to punish things his otherwise slow moves can't. This is actually why the Little Mac matchup is so frustrating, Bowser simply doesn't have quick enough moves to punish Mac's smashes/ftilts without perfect shielding them. I'll take my 8% punish over nothing, and I look forward to finding new ways to abuse the move in the future. Or at least until no one uses customs anymore :(

Nabster92 said:
Bit of a late reply since I was out of town for a bit, but maybe I'll start seeing you at some NorCal events soon! Hopefully should be moving there around end of August or so. Also, yea I think my set with Poltergust in ranbats was pretty close. From what I remember, he hit me an absurd amount of times with 1-frame spikes at the ledge, which tilted things in his favor.
Click to expand...

The Thursday tournament at the Folsom Street Foundry is the big weekly in the bay area, if you want to play the best regional players and get on the PR that'll be the place to be. Though, as I described in a recent post, I'm not so hot on that weekly right now. NorCal is especially active right now, I was looking through the events and there's one every day this week, and many more the rest of the month. Some of this is cause it's summer, but the local scene has definitely grown since I started following it in January. Say hi once you get here!



Oh, also, anyone want to play for half an hour or so?
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dash Slash makes Dedede so much more manageable. It's a pretty poor matchup with default moves. Dedede has better everything than Bowser, and he's crazy hard to kill. Probably 6-4 in Dedede's favor. If Bowser's Fire Breath could reflect Gordos, it would be about even.

Little Mac, though...I consider that to be in Bowser's favor, still. Dash Slash doesn't help too much, either, because Little Mac can just armor through Dash Slash for an Usmash (or many other options).
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Karsticles said:
Dash Slash makes Dedede so much more manageable. It's a pretty poor matchup with default moves. Dedede has better everything than Bowser, and he's crazy hard to kill. Probably 6-4 in Dedede's favor. If Bowser's Fire Breath could reflect Gordos, it would be about even.

Little Mac, though...I consider that to be in Bowser's favor, still. Dash Slash doesn't help too much, either, because Little Mac can just armor through Dash Slash for an Usmash (or many other options).
Click to expand...

Dedede is still trouble with dash slash, DS sometimes trades with gordo's, sometimes hits them back cleanly, sometimes loses, and the Dedede I played specialized at putting me in situations where I had to get through them. In retrospect I'd have done some things differently, I let him do the "floaty jump over his head" mindgame on me way too often.

I think I need to workshop Little Mac, maybe I just haven't figured out what to do. Maybe if I threw out an fsmash of my own right after shielding his fmash Bowser would travel far enough, fast enough to hit Little Mac before he could shield... Maybe not, but I don't know until I spend time experimenting with another Little Mac. The LM I played had some good tricks for getting back on stage, I was never able to gimp him - usually my trump card against lesser Little Mac players.

Funnily enough, I beat a relatively good Sonic player in a crazy couple of matches. He used to be on the regional PR before the crazy good guys showed up. I think he really underestimated what I could do and played unsafely, then was surprised when he got bair'd into oblivion. No way I should have won that.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Cronox said:
Dedede is still trouble with dash slash, DS sometimes trades with gordo's, sometimes hits them back cleanly, sometimes loses, and the Dedede I played specialized at putting me in situations where I had to get through them. In retrospect I'd have done some things differently, I let him do the "floaty jump over his head" mindgame on me way too often.

I think I need to workshop Little Mac, maybe I just haven't figured out what to do. Maybe if I threw out an fsmash of my own right after shielding his fmash Bowser would travel far enough, fast enough to hit Little Mac before he could shield... Maybe not, but I don't know until I spend time experimenting with another Little Mac. The LM I played had some good tricks for getting back on stage, I was never able to gimp him - usually my trump card against lesser Little Mac players.

Funnily enough, I beat a relatively good Sonic player in a crazy couple of matches. He used to be on the regional PR before the crazy good guys showed up. I think he really underestimated what I could do and played unsafely, then was surprised when he got bair'd into oblivion. No way I should have won that.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but the Dash Slash isn't for beating Gordos. You're right, it's hit and miss on that front. You use it to punish rolls and such. It just makes him play a little safer. Use it to get in after you've dodged a Gordo. Hit back Gordos as often as possible.

If Dedede is doing his float into Nair mindgame, double jump into your own Nair. He can't move enough to avoid it, and 20% is nothing to scoff at. Do it from the side so he can't challenge your jump easily.

Little Mac's Fsmash is pretty safe. I wouldn't try to punish it with Fsmash. If you're on the ledge, sometimes you can punish it with Fortress. Or roll behind him and punish with Fortress as it starts up. Don't be afraid to shield for a while. Bowser has the advantage in the footsies game because of Fire Breath. Lay that down every chance you have. Any time Little Mac is roaring toward you, just spit it out for one button push to slow him down. It helps you evaluate the situation, makes him rethink his approach, and does a few %.

Once Little Mac is off the ledge, you have two situations:
1) Little Mac tries to land on the stage.
2) Little Mac goes for the ledge.

If he tries to land on the stage, empty jump under him. He HAS to air dodge or counter (most counter in my experience), because Little Mac has no aerials to challenge you with. He's scared and hopes to land safely. Fast fall the empty jump, and then Usmash (or whatever) for the kill.

If he goes for the ledge, it's all about Fire Breath. If you can hit Little Mac with the tail end of Fire Breath, it's a guaranteed gimp because he'll be too far out. The nice thing about Fire Breath is that it's pretty much counter proof. It's hard to get the spacing right on Little Mac's counter for it to activate, and he will probably just SD instead. Chasing Little Mac off of the ledge is kind of iffy. You really need a good read or a multi-hit attack to beat his air dodge (Mewtwo gimps Little Mac so easily, though the neutral is harder than it is for Bowser).

I hope some of that helps.

Edit: Oh yeah, your best tool against Dedede is to run up and shield. 99% of Dedede players will Ftilt or Gordo. Both are punishable via Fortress cancel. If he goes into the air, then you Nair chase. If he runs away, pursue and get ready to repeat the process until you are near the corner. If he goes for a grab, spot dodge and Fortress punish. This is the basic Bowser gamble that every character gets put into, but it's particularly effective against Dedede because Dedede isn't mobile enough to run away and mess with us like Fox or Sheik. The matchup is only hard because we can't use Fire Breath in a lot of situations (still an amazing ledge guard against Dedede, since he has to recover straight up and will take ~20% every time we've thrown him off), and because Dedede takes SO long to kill. It's amazing that he isn't heavier than Bowser, really.
 
A

Anonymous Tipster

Member
Good games Cronox! Sorry, my head's killing me so no long post from me, but I think the Bowser match up is a really tough one. Of course, tough guy rips through the jabs, but I was finding the 1-2-3 jab to be effective (though I kept slipping into the multi hit one).

Smashville is a shitty stage for Mac, with all that platform camping, and if I was a Mac main, you could count on that stage being banned every time.

Bowser's up tilt and forward air surprised me at how effective they were. The Up-tilt covered Mac's roll range, so I couldn't get around it unless I timed it front to back, and the forward air trajectory wrecks havok on Mac's shitty recoveries. Hitting that as often as you can will make a Little Mac cry. ;_)

Good games all around!
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Anonymous Tipster said:
Good games Cronox! Sorry, my head's killing me so no long post from me, but I think the Bowser match up is a really tough one. Of course, tough guy rips through the jabs, but I was finding the 1-2-3 jab to be effective (though I kept slipping into the multi hit one).

Smashville is a shitty stage for Mac, with all that platform camping, and if I was a Mac main, you could count on that stage being banned every time.

Bowser's up tilt and forward air surprised me at how effective they were. The Up-tilt covered Mac's roll range, so I couldn't get around it unless I timed it front to back, and the forward air trajectory wrecks havok on Mac's shitty recoveries. Hitting that as often as you can will make a Little Mac cry. ;_)

Good games all around!
Click to expand...
Bowser's Utilt got a huge buff in 1.0.8. :)
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Good games Tipster! Seems like the stage really effects how well I do in our matches. Can't believe I did an accidental dsmash giving you an uppercut to take the match twice in a row. Facepalm moments there. I don't understand how some people can say they have trouble doing smashes in this game, I have trouble not doing smashes... not that my dtilts (what I intended) were doing me much good against you either.

I did enjoy that time on Delfino where I decided to stuff all your approaches with retreating dash slashes. I feel like Smashville worked out best for me. Camping the platform has its risk but I enjoy setting the pace and making Little Mac wait for me.

I was surprised my 30 minute Sheik was as successful as it was. She's so good... It's just so crazy to play a character that responds to everything so precisely. Except for the accidental grenades. WTF Sakurai?

Karsticles said:
Yeah, but the Dash Slash isn't for beating Gordos. You're right, it's hit and miss on that front. You use it to punish rolls and such. It just makes him play a little safer. Use it to get in after you've dodged a Gordo. Hit back Gordos as often as possible.

If Dedede is doing his float into Nair mindgame, double jump into your own Nair. He can't move enough to avoid it, and 20% is nothing to scoff at. Do it from the side so he can't challenge your jump easily.

Little Mac's Fsmash is pretty safe. I wouldn't try to punish it with Fsmash. If you're on the ledge, sometimes you can punish it with Fortress. Or roll behind him and punish with Fortress as it starts up. Don't be afraid to shield for a while. Bowser has the advantage in the footsies game because of Fire Breath. Lay that down every chance you have. Any time Little Mac is roaring toward you, just spit it out for one button push to slow him down. It helps you evaluate the situation, makes him rethink his approach, and does a few %.

Once Little Mac is off the ledge, you have two situations:
1) Little Mac tries to land on the stage.
2) Little Mac goes for the ledge.

If he tries to land on the stage, empty jump under him. He HAS to air dodge or counter (most counter in my experience), because Little Mac has no aerials to challenge you with. He's scared and hopes to land safely. Fast fall the empty jump, and then Usmash (or whatever) for the kill.

If he goes for the ledge, it's all about Fire Breath. If you can hit Little Mac with the tail end of Fire Breath, it's a guaranteed gimp because he'll be too far out. The nice thing about Fire Breath is that it's pretty much counter proof. It's hard to get the spacing right on Little Mac's counter for it to activate, and he will probably just SD instead. Chasing Little Mac off of the ledge is kind of iffy. You really need a good read or a multi-hit attack to beat his air dodge (Mewtwo gimps Little Mac so easily, though the neutral is harder than it is for Bowser).

I hope some of that helps.

Edit: Oh yeah, your best tool against Dedede is to run up and shield. 99% of Dedede players will Ftilt or Gordo. Both are punishable via Fortress cancel. If he goes into the air, then you Nair chase. If he runs away, pursue and get ready to repeat the process until you are near the corner. If he goes for a grab, spot dodge and Fortress punish. This is the basic Bowser gamble that every character gets put into, but it's particularly effective against Dedede because Dedede isn't mobile enough to run away and mess with us like Fox or Sheik. The matchup is only hard because we can't use Fire Breath in a lot of situations (still an amazing ledge guard against Dedede, since he has to recover straight up and will take ~20% every time we've thrown him off), and because Dedede takes SO long to kill. It's amazing that he isn't heavier than Bowser, really.
Click to expand...

Yeah I know the Dedede stuff (not the edit I suppose), I just didn't apply it at the time :(

Speaking of which, I read this before my matches with Tipster and proceeded to apply none of it. My ledge guarding (ledge or onstage) is really where I drop the ball with Little Mac. Managed to bair my way into some of Mac's counters with Tipster, though one worked in my favor. I'll keep this in mind for the next time though :( Edit: oh and punishing Mac's fsmash with an fsmash was unrealistic. I dropped fire breath from my edge guarding repertoire a while ago, cause I fell in love with off-stage edge guards. Course, I'm meeting players that manage to avoid them all so I'd better get back to something I know will hit at least...

I'm getting a lot of mileage out of utilt lately. The buff makes it sort of combo into itself. Not true combo, but it generally works out. Also, because it's faster I find myself using it for coverage when I'm afraid other things will whiff. It's pretty much the same damage as fortress, with more followup potential. Besides out of shield things, I think it may be the superior option for catching people falling towards me and maybe even roll reads, as it doesn't leave Bowser nearly as vulnerable if whiffed/shielded.

Anonymous Tipster said:
Good games Cronox! Sorry, my head's killing me so no long post from me, but I think the Bowser match up is a really tough one. Of course, tough guy rips through the jabs, but I was finding the 1-2-3 jab to be effective (though I kept slipping into the multi hit one).

Smashville is a shitty stage for Mac, with all that platform camping, and if I was a Mac main, you could count on that stage being banned every time.

Bowser's up tilt and forward air surprised me at how effective they were. The Up-tilt covered Mac's roll range, so I couldn't get around it unless I timed it front to back, and the forward air trajectory wrecks havok on Mac's shitty recoveries. Hitting that as often as you can will make a Little Mac cry. ;_)

Good games all around!
Click to expand...

Ha no worries. The Little Mac I played today banned Lylat and Battlefield for some reason, so we played one match on Smashville. I tried to platform camp at the time, but wasn't as successful as in our matches. I feel like I have my strategy down for that stage now...
 
O

Oidisco

Member
Zero just put up a video about Marth and Lucina and whether the buffs helped them out much. In short, not really. They're better, but still pretty bad and not tournament viable. Not exactly something we didn't already know, but it still makes me sad. I still don't know why Sakurai decided to nerf Marth so much in this game. Makes no sense!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfl6nFuv9SA
 
O

Oidisco

Member
Wyndstryker said:
Just had a couple of epiphany moments which skyrocketed my sonic/kirby/mac matchup performance. No clue if my new strategy it'll work all the time but in most of my matches against them in FG but so far they've been working quite well.

And shameless JV3 vs falcon addition to the thread
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, what do do against them?

I don't have too much trouble against Mac on FG, I mainly just play super slow and rarely punish with a smash other than down-smash, since it comes out fast. I mostly just jump around and try to make them impatient and hope they start throwing out more attacks that I can punish with grabs or a dash attack. I also never use up-b against Mac, unless I read a roll away.
When they're off-stage, I drag Mac down with nair or if I think they're going to counter and I'm a stock ahead, I attack behind them so the counter will launch them away from the stage.
 
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