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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Did you wanna do any bans? I'll ban halberd and delfino.
Shamrock7r
Member
eh, I guess I will ban lylat and dreamland 64
Had so much fun playing For Glory the last hour or so...
There were two good players I got to fight, but boring and laggy matches far outnumbered the ones that were actually interesting. It didn't help that the first decent player merely switched characters until he/she managed to bear my Pac once and then left, but at least the second player staid around and used his Mewtwo some more.
It's kind of ridiculous that most of my killing blows end up being nairs on severely damaged opponents AND close to the edges of the stage, but when my opponent is cautious enough I find that my whole three and a half other kill moves aren't all that useful with how situational they are. I guess Pac might do slightly better in doubles or something, but it's really funny (in a vexing way) how you can zone and poke all you want with him, but you won't be getting any KOs unless you take some heavy risks, get enough prep time to set up his trampoline and hydrant antics or if your opponents miss a move that opens them up pretty badly for a juicy punish.
There were two good players I got to fight, but boring and laggy matches far outnumbered the ones that were actually interesting. It didn't help that the first decent player merely switched characters until he/she managed to bear my Pac once and then left, but at least the second player staid around and used his Mewtwo some more.
It's kind of ridiculous that most of my killing blows end up being nairs on severely damaged opponents AND close to the edges of the stage, but when my opponent is cautious enough I find that my whole three and a half other kill moves aren't all that useful with how situational they are. I guess Pac might do slightly better in doubles or something, but it's really funny (in a vexing way) how you can zone and poke all you want with him, but you won't be getting any KOs unless you take some heavy risks, get enough prep time to set up his trampoline and hydrant antics or if your opponents miss a move that opens them up pretty badly for a juicy punish.
Shamrock7r
Member
Rosa is so goddamn cheap
I never said he's beating the top tiers for free, just that he doesn't really have bad match ups. You just can't with his aerial control and ko powerI think you're overrating Ness. He may not have many bad match ups but he is not beating even half the cast for free either. If you have a mustache you can go even with him IMO.
Edit: Make a room Cyberman, I'm getting on now.
Edit 2: LLAAAAAGGG
Oh, I meant that I'm with you, it's not a good match up for Mewtwo and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to tell. You can't live long enough, shadow ball is out of the game, you're huge with bad hit boxes against a tiny big headed monster that can kill you by sneezing.
I'd love to know about your insight against these match ups if you have the time. I guess Sonic makes pk fire to dangerous to throw out carelessly and the spring can fuck up pk thunder and he's not gonna be still for you to land a grab easily. But Ness still has his broken aerials to control the space.
And what's so bad about Shiek, should be pretty even, but then again I don't use either of them.
Shamrock7r
Member
Geezus. I got lucky I wasn't off the stage as much as usual against you. GGs.
Shamrock7r
Member
GG's yea, I started playing really dumb after reading your rosa hate
I will claim mindgames to look smart
I was actually going to go Lucas the whole set as I thought I developed a good strategy vs Rosa but I screwed up so quickly games 1 and 2 I got cold feet. I'd like to try him more vs you.
Fell for the pity mind gaemz :/
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
I'm saying his aerial control isn't the end all be all. Ignoring Rosalina and her star-shaped piece of shit shield, Ness needs to be able to hit the opponent safely to really get in there. If you have physical projectiles, Magnet is useless and Ness now has to actually get in close. I can put up a fight against Shamrock's Ness with Doc for crying out loud, and I never feel disadvantaged because of Ness (rather, because Doc's recovery is pure buttcheeks and they actually made him slower than Mario this time.)
I'm no Ness expert, but a good Sheik has no bad matchups. At worse she'll go even. She can force Ness to approach with needles and rack up damage like it's nothing, exploiting any mistake Ness can make. I'd rather let the Ness experts continue this discussion though.
GG's yea, I started playing really dumb after reading your rosa hate
From now on I'm going to cry about how Rosalina is unfair and wait for you to SD Kappa
Shamrock7r
Member
Rosalina is pretty self explanatory. Beats Ness in nearly every aspect. The neutral, off the ledge, in the air. Obviously the DownB is a major major problem for Ness. Essentially, if Ness can't stay grounded, he is doomed. He has to be a slow, methodical Little Mac, lol.
Sonic, and to a lesser extent Mii Gunner, have options that make it impossible for Ness to approach.
With Sonic, literally impossible. Ness has ZERO approach moves. PK Fire and PK thunder are near useless, as are any ground moves. All he has are his aerials against this match, and a lucky grab. His only chance is to counter as best as he can, which against a good Sonic, is extremely difficult. These matches usually go to or are almost always near time, if the Sonic player wants to play it that way.
I will give the others a go later
Shamrock7r
Member
GGs Nabster. Lucas definitely at the very least has some options vs Rosa.
GG's Shamrock. I need to not let stupid SD's from lag mess with my mindset as much as it does. Gotta learn a more defensive play style to at least do for a bit as I regain my composure.
Karsticles
Member
What would you change about her?
Shadow Ball is still useful against Ness. Shamrock can confirm that while I do heal him like an idiot sometimes, I hurt him for far more % throughout a set. Plenty of Ness KOs from Shadow Ball. You just have to get the read.
Lucas feels like it would be better just because you have a tether for recovery.
Why Lucario?
Yeah, these are non-GAF Mewtwo mains. They all say they stomp Ness, and they need to play a good Ness so they can get why I put him as Mewtwo's top five bad matchups.
He gets it for both, and he gets it just from taking damage just fine. It is a reward for failing.
Dude, how have you not replaced that?!
Shamrock7r
Member
You are the first Rosa that was really good at avoiding Lucas' dsmash on recovery. It's been giving a lot of Rosa's hell, but you mixed it up well.
Shamrock7r
Member
Absolutely, a good Mewtwo player can land multiple shadow balls on Ness. You just can't spam it.
That is one factor. There are others. Longer recovery with pk2. PKfire can kill Luma pretty quickly, especially if Luma is near the edge of a stage.
PK Fire and Tether in general counter Luma's approaches pretty well if timed right.
Lucas has 2 very good and 1 other decent option to gimp or rack up damage on Rosa off stage. Lucas' Dsmash, if positioned and timed correctly, will hit Rosalina before she can latch on to the edge with her upB recovery. Dair and bair also offer gimping options.
One of the major problems with the Ness/Rosa matchup is they float down at the exact same speed. Thus, if Rosa is near Ness, she can easily and continuously harass and keep Ness in the air with her uair and dair. They outrange all of Ness' aerials. With Lucas, he falls at the same rate, but his PK Magnet, when used, very briefly halts his decent. This is a major deal, as it allows Lucas to separate from Rosalina when trying to make his way back down to the stage.
Has seemingly very good approach and avoidance options vs Ness, and his Aura obviously is a big deal. Kills Ness very early. I think Lucario in general is underrated.
SoldnerKei
Member
someone still around to do some casul games?
Professor Beef
Banned
The only way I'm able to replace it is by paying Nintendo for a replacement, and they have to ship it to me. And until recently I haven't known the exact date of when I'm moving, so I'm not going to order it and then not know where it's going to be. I'll order it when I get back from EVO since I'll have a temporary place by then.
Karsticles
Member
Make a room, Kei!
Edit: Oh, that was 30 min ago. Still around?
Doesn't Ness' Psi Magnet slow his fall?
Edit: Oh, that was 30 min ago. Still around?
Can you absorb his side B? Mewtwo can reflect it.
Doesn't Ness' Psi Magnet slow his fall?
Gotcha.
Karsticles
Member
Shamrock, these are the guys I want you to play:
http://smashboards.com/threads/pokemon-stadium-mewtwo-matchup-thread.398034/page-13
http://smashboards.com/threads/pokemon-stadium-mewtwo-matchup-thread.398034/page-13
Shamrock7r
Member
Well just let me know. While I think Ness has the matchup advantage, I think it's a fairly small difference, or at least not as big of a gap as maybe you feel.
Karsticles
Member
Want to play for a bit, Shamrock?
1) Ness has safe offensive options. Mewtwo does not.
2) Ness is short, so Nair goes over him a lot.
3) Ness can reflect AND absorb Shadow Ball.
4) With PK Fire, Ness has the advantage in the footsies game.
5) Ness builds damage fast and kills Mewtwo really early. Mewtwo needs to make no mistakes to maintain a lead.
Those are all considerable advantages. I don't think Ness is the worst matchup Mewtwo has, but definitely top 5. Keep in mind that you are the ONLY Ness I lose to, but Matchups are based on top players, not randoms. I destroy most Sonic and Sheik players, too, and those matchups are atrocious for Mewtwo.
I feel that the matchup is 60-40 for the following reasons:
1) Ness has safe offensive options. Mewtwo does not.
2) Ness is short, so Nair goes over him a lot.
3) Ness can reflect AND absorb Shadow Ball.
4) With PK Fire, Ness has the advantage in the footsies game.
5) Ness builds damage fast and kills Mewtwo really early. Mewtwo needs to make no mistakes to maintain a lead.
Those are all considerable advantages. I don't think Ness is the worst matchup Mewtwo has, but definitely top 5. Keep in mind that you are the ONLY Ness I lose to, but Matchups are based on top players, not randoms. I destroy most Sonic and Sheik players, too, and those matchups are atrocious for Mewtwo.
Karsticles
Member
I have never had a Sonic run away because he doesn't know what else to do. Bless you, Jiggs.
You could play my newbie Jiggs.
The stuff that makes Sheik too good isn't hard to abuse. I don't think anyone is upset by her Fair or combos. Needle spam, up B, and her insanely good roll are the problems. Fix those, and she is balanced. The core issue isn't that she is too strong on offense, it is that she is extremely campy AND has a really safe offense.
Don't worry about staling moves. Stale moves are on a stack of 10 most recent attack attempts. As long as you do lots of stuff before you go for a Uair kill later, you will be fine. I use Dtilt after charging Shadow Ball to refresh the damage all the time. Gotta 1-shot those Fox players.
Maybe I'll take Sheik out on GAF in a couple days.
Ha many many people are upset by her fair, though changing it (or any of her normals at this point) would basically break her as a character. You're just not browsing the right (actually wrong) places. The funny thing is how little the best players use Sheik's up b for recovery. They much prefer using bouncing fish to get back to the stage quickly. For it's edge-guarding difficulty, vanish actually takes a long time to use, ceding stage control during that time. It's been interesting learning some of the tricks. There are times where the only way to get the kill is with vanish
If I had to nerf a thing about Sheik, I'd remove the transcendent priority from needles. They don't really need it. I've been remembering your opinion that needles should have more endlag, and actually I disagree. I've gotten punished plenty when I threw needles too close to opponents (even on hit rather than shield), and when they do hit I can't really follow up on them unless my opponent was at high percent and very close. They're really only spammy at long range and high percents. The only real needle followup is aerial needles into bouncing fish as a kill move. They're zone-breakers, no realistic nerf would stop them from serving that purpose.
No one should have terrible rolls as far as I'm concerned. I would much prefer if the invulnerable/vulnerable frames were standardized. Though I admit I haven't thought that completely through.
Staling is actually something of a strategy with Sheik. Keeping her fair stale is part of what allows those mid-percent combos to connect. There are times when an uair is appropriate but probably not til at least 80-90%, and that's just to set up the opponent to airdodge into Sheik's up b the next time they get put in the dthrow->uair setup.
The main problem with FG Link has always been lag. Makes it very hard to powershield, and because FG Link only throws projectiles and uses smashes, getting caught by them hurts. These players are only a threat online. Locally they wouldn't get anywhere with me. I suppose I made it easier for the two I met the other night cause I'm specifically focused on my short hop fast fall fair combos, but almost always drop them, giving them a nice fsmash target. I'll get it together eventually, though FG Link is always a chore.
I feel the Lucario vs Ness matchup is leaning more towards even, just because Lucario has to beware of Ness's bthrow and bat/PSI Magnet (can't just throw out those sideBs and neutral Bs so easily). Like all characters vs Lucario, you better set him up for a kill early to avoid any high rage + aura shenanigans.
I do admit I haven't fought much customs Lucario and could see Snaring Aura Sphere being quite of a pain.
Also I've been playing a lot more Sheik and Fox lately...expect to see them more after EVO.
I do admit I haven't fought much customs Lucario and could see Snaring Aura Sphere being quite of a pain.
Also I've been playing a lot more Sheik and Fox lately...expect to see them more after EVO.
Karsticles
Member
Help on this?
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1079855
I don't believe that you got punished after needles hit.
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1079855
Everyone should have terrible rolls. Rolling should be a huge risk. Sheik has the best roll in the game. Look at the frame data on it.Maybe I'll take Sheik out on GAF in a couple days.
Ha many many people are upset by her fair, though changing it (or any of her normals at this point) would basically break her as a character. You're just not browsing the right (actually wrong) places. The funny thing is how little the best players use Sheik's up b for recovery. They much prefer using bouncing fish to get back to the stage quickly. For it's edge-guarding difficulty, vanish actually takes a long time to use, ceding stage control during that time. It's been interesting learning some of the tricks. There are times where the only way to get the kill is with vanish
If I had to nerf a thing about Sheik, I'd remove the transcendent priority from needles. They don't really need it. I've been remembering your opinion that needles should have more endlag, and actually I disagree. I've gotten punished plenty when I threw needles too close to opponents (even on hit rather than shield), and when they do hit I can't really follow up on them unless my opponent was at high percent and very close. They're really only spammy at long range and high percents. The only real needle followup is aerial needles into bouncing fish as a kill move. They're zone-breakers, no realistic nerf would stop them from serving that purpose.
No one should have terrible rolls as far as I'm concerned. I would much prefer if the invulnerable/vulnerable frames were standardized. Though I admit I haven't thought that completely through.
Staling is actually something of a strategy with Sheik. Keeping her fair stale is part of what allows those mid-percent combos to connect. There are times when an uair is appropriate but probably not til at least 80-90%, and that's just to set up the opponent to airdodge into Sheik's up b the next time they get put in the dthrow->uair setup.
The main problem with FG Link has always been lag. Makes it very hard to powershield, and because FG Link only throws projectiles and uses smashes, getting caught by them hurts. These players are only a threat online. Locally they wouldn't get anywhere with me. I suppose I made it easier for the two I met the other night cause I'm specifically focused on my short hop fast fall fair combos, but almost always drop them, giving them a nice fsmash target. I'll get it together eventually, though FG Link is always a chore.
I don't believe that you got punished after needles hit.
Help on this?
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1079855
Everyone should have terrible rolls. Rolling should be a huge risk. Sheik has the best roll in the game. Look at the frame data on it.
I don't believe that you got punished after needles hit.
It helps that I'm throwing just one or two needles, and at low percents. Trust me, I'm getting punished. If it was fully charged up I wouldn't be punished probably. For reporting, as a recent post in your thread says, supposedly you can tap their icon in the results screen. Unfortunately if they change their name afterwards to taunt you and then leave it doesn't seem you have a way to report them in-game.
I don't know if I want rolls to be terrible, but I don't really get the logic in giving certain characters really good ones and others terrible ones. Seems arbitrary based on Sakurai's idea of which characters are faster. I mean, I could argue that Sheik needs a good roll cause she's light and can't take a hit, but then why isn't Mewtwo's roll better? Really don't get the logic. I suppose if I was going to agree with you I'd say that I'd want all rolls to be made bad enough that they aren't viable enough to use offensively. So, better than Bowser's, but worse than Sheik's...
Karsticles
Member
I feel like everyone should have Bowser's roll. Good enough that, circumstantially, you can use it offensively, but it is rarely the ideal option.
It really bothers me that grabs can be roll punished. Spot dodge punished? Sure. But someone shouldn't be able to roll any direction they want and then punish a grab attempt. That is stupid.
I also want more shield stun. Bowser down B should force a shield break or hit if he catches you shielding on the upswing.
I don't think Lucario's approach options are very good in general, they're just unorthodox. I catch people with dumb stuff like sh Fair > Dair all the time because no one knows what they're doing against the character and everyone's too impatient to sit in shield but it's not actually great if they do. Nair is weird and probably safe at really specific heights/angles but it's not amazing. Nothing short of a preemptive Bair or charged aura sphere contests Ness's Fair in the air.
I think Lucario has a lot more usable tools in the neutral and doesn't really have a problem staying away from Ness, but the potential for aura sphere/force palm to heal stupid amounts means he does have to get in eventually. Ness kinda only has Fair in the neutral since Lucario gets a lot off whiffed PK fires but Fair is so good that I'd still call it even at worst.
He's definitely underrated though, especially now that his jab actually works.
Curious who the rest of your top 5 is, and why it isn't Sheik/Pikachu/Sonic/Fox/Yoshi!
Idk, seems like Shamrocks idea of bad match ups are matches that Ness can't beat for free. Lucario doesn't have anything that puts him at a clear advantage against Ness. At worst they might be even, but his slow smashes, not being able to get a lot of aura, free healing and short range doesn't like there's much to put him into an advantage.
So Lucario's nair has no landing lag, can be used as a whiff into jab or grab.
So Lucario's nair has no landing lag, can be used as a whiff into jab or grab.
I feel like it's relatively easy to not get hit by especially when you already start it before I actually do the up-b. At that point I can just get back for free on reaction since it lasts so long and I can time the up-b to latch right after the hits.
On the other hand Sonic's F-Smash (WHY?!?) hits my recovery 100% of the time in my experience against Sonic's that actually do it. Bowser's D-tilt is also a bit hard to get past sometimes as well.
And people complain that Rosa gets "buffed" since Luma got 2 HP more when she actually got her jab finisher nerfed which is actually something that makes a difference, whereas Sonic gets buffed and nobody bats an eye? Pfffft.
FINALLY SOMEONE I CAN PLAY WITH
You play a character that can punish people for hitting you.
If you ever want to play on 3DS just let me know, since I do play it a bit every now and then.
Edit: Also, having cooled off a bit from yesterday, I'd say it's cool that I've finally gotten to a point where I can spot Pac's shortcomings. I've got a long way to go before I can play him on a competitive level, and I bet I won't ever get there since my only option is playing online, but at least it's cool that I'm not absolutely free whenever I play against you guys while using him.
Maybe someday I'll get to do some out of shield moves, but so far it seems my brain is against the thought of properly shielding attacks... If anyone would be willing to play me sometime so I can do shield into punish drills (or not, if the move isn't safe for me on block), just let me know.
Probably Yoshi, Sonic, Ness, Falcon and Sheik.
Thanks! I am usually available at night EST, I will PM you my FC later.
Shamrock7r
Member
My idea of a bad matchup are ones that I think Ness is at a disadvantage, no matter how small, which is why I put them in categories. If you think those are the only matchups ness has trouble with, that's silly.
To clarify because it is getting some attention, I think the Lucario matchup is very close, but I do give Lucario the slight edge. He has some amazing approach options with moves that change his momentum and his charging energy ball. I have yet to see anyone here use Lucario in the way I've faced one of the top Lucarios over at Anthers. I'd show you a replay if the patch didn't ruin it :/
Sounds like match up inexperience to me.
I say this with the risk of sounding patronizing, so I apologize and mean no offense, cuz you know I really respect you as a player
Shamrock7r
Member
It's fine. Debates are fun. What about it sounds like inexperience? Have you attempted to play the top Lucarios on Anthers. Lucario is not an often used character, so I know a lot of people on here in all likelihood have not experienced the playstyle I've witnessed.
Hey now, if anyone gets the same hate as rosa its Sonic, lol
Shamrock7r
Member
I looked at my replays and I believe I found the guy. Kami. Played a long set with him that swayed me on the Lucario matchup. Here is a recent video of his play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuU6LX_S58A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuU6LX_S58A
Haven't on Anther's specifically because I don't use the service, but a few months ago I've come across really great lucario's, with great use of wave bouncing, frame traps and great use of aerials. I also tried learning him for a while and saw a lot of competitive footage and read guides and used him a lot for a while.
I think he's really underrated and can easily dominate matches if you let him, but Ness's no lag up air and his back throw are gonna corner him into a no mistake match up.
Thanks for the video! Will check it in a sev
I think he's really underrated and can easily dominate matches if you let him, but Ness's no lag up air and his back throw are gonna corner him into a no mistake match up.
Thanks for the video! Will check it in a sev
Shamrock7r
Member
Lucario has very good defensive and spacing options. Both uair and bthrow require Ness to get in close. A player like Kami is very good at maintaining that space away from Ness in regards to his moves. Imagine how difficult it is then for Ness to finish off a Lucario who has Rage and Aura, because Ness has to get in close. Oddly enough though, I think it is Kami's aggressiveness that throws people off. Most Lucario players are pretty defensive. Kami has excellent use of charging ball and other moves to create pressure.
Hard to say exactly what kind of approaches you're talking about without seeing it myself, but outside of Nair I really don't know what would give Ness much trouble. Bair is ok on shield with good spacing but he gets nothing off it and stales one of his few good kill options. Dair and Fair are unsafe, aura sphere charge is...weird. His only options without going through shield drop are throwing the aura sphere, grab, Usmash, and jump. If he uses it close enough that you block the charge then you should be able to roll toward his back for free every time, but the timing is probably tricky online.
Nair recovers quick enough that it can set up for actual mixups, and empty jumps should work well. All of that still loses to Ness's Fair with proper timing/spacing though, so I don't know. They're both strong characters with plenty of reasons to respect each other.
Watching this, I see a whole lot of low % situations where Luck is jumping around pressing buttons when sitting in shield would get him a free punish against most approaches and force palm wouldn't kill. Kami's definitely good, but there's a lot of obvious matchup inexperience at play too. He gets away with offensive up-B way too much, and I don't think Luck blocked an aura sphere charge once. The one time I saw him roll behind it (at the end of the set) he threw the match away trying to Fsmash it.
SolarKnight
Member
Well I'm leaving for Vegas now so hopefully I get to meet you guys that are going to Evo this weekend.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
I actually played a good Lucario player at Combo Breaker who took games off Zero's Falcon for what it's worth. The matchup is interesting because of how much aura can change things. You can go from actively pursuing Lucario to playing as patient as possible because of how quickly he becomes a real threat. He doesn't have the best approaches but he racks up damage hard if he gets a hit on you. I played some bouts with him using Mario, and I remember winning one match simply because his fsmash was slower than mine. It was definitely not easy, and all our games were very close.
Fuck aura, basically. :^)
Also holy shit Karst, your thread turned into a bloodbath quick.
Fuck aura, basically. :^)
Also holy shit Karst, your thread turned into a bloodbath quick.
Karsticles
Member
Have fun, Solar!
Among the top 6, I don't know which one is slightly less worse than the others.
Hahaha, that is actually my top 6! Add Ness, and those are the six I can't handle. You have no idea how happy I am that we share the same list.
Among the top 6, I don't know which one is slightly less worse than the others. I haven't checked since I went to sleep. I really felt like I walked into a madhouse last night. When did GAF get like this? :/
Will watch. Hope to see lots of B reversed charging.