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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!

C

Cronox

Banned
Good games Namikaze. I can't short hop to save my life during our matches, it was really frustrating. Had to go for now. Wish I'd played your Yoshi.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Cronox said:
Good games Namikaze. I can't short hop to save my life during our matches, it was really frustrating. Had to go for now. Wish I'd played your Yoshi.
Click to expand...

GGs. As you can see, my Sheik isn't much better. I can't even short hop all the time with my other characters -.-

I can give you Yoshi next time. I haven't really played any serious matches in a few days. My play time has been spent in FG doing random, and I didn't even play yesterday.

Anyone else want to play?
Don't get mad if I go Lucario
 
A

Anonymous Tipster

Member
Snacks the sober sea lion said:
I wouldn't really do it.

I don't know who to play, though. I haven't had any improvement in at least a month.
Click to expand...

latest
Click to expand...

It's time!
 
K

Karsticles

Member
NamikazeBurst said:
GGs. As you can see, my Sheik isn't much better. I can't even short hop all the time with my other characters -.-

I can give you Yoshi next time. I haven't really played any serious matches in a few days. My play time has been spent in FG doing random, and I didn't even play yesterday.

Anyone else want to play?
Don't get mad if I go Lucario
Click to expand...
Want to play? Just had someone PP on me. Yay!
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Look at those disjoints, that safety, that speed, those projectiles, and that weight. How can you be in constant denial that you play the most bullshit character in this game? Take away half of what he has and he would be balanced.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Karsticles said:
Look at those disjoints, that safety, that speed, those projectiles, and that weight. How can you be in constant denial that you play the most bullshit character in this game? Take away half of what he has and he would be balanced.
Click to expand...

You seriously can't say anything about disjoints and safety while playing Jigglypuff. Practically all your moves are disjoints, and Yoshi has what, 1? Safety, you could fade a fair in all day and not get punished.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Fandangox said:
Yoshi is not that op Kars.
Click to expand...
Also, one of the best, most ungimpable recoveries in the game.

NamikazeBurst said:
You seriously can't say anything about disjoints and safety while playing Jigglypuff. Practically all your moves are disjoints, and Yoshi has what, 1? Safety, you could fade a fair in all day and not get punished.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Jiggs is safer than Yoshi. But look at all that other bullshit. Yoshi even makes ZeRo rage. He is pure retardation on the screen.

Edit: nah, Yoshi is safer. He doesn't even know what the phrase "commit to an attack" means.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
GGs. Honestly. if Jigglypuff had a projectile instead of sing, and the weight of Yoshi, I would say she is better. Her fair lasts forever and goes through everything, and the jumps and air dodges are more deceptive than DDD. Yoshi has a lot of trouble killing, and Jigglypuff seems to do just fine on a character of Yoshi's weight. Of course, you might not believe me when I say Yoshi has trouble killing, but not many other characters regularly get their opponents to 150%+, including Mewtwo.

My Lucario sucks. I couldn't figure out anything against Jiggly except for run away and Aura Sphere.
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Karsticles said:
Yeah, Jiggs is safer than Yoshi. But look at all that other bullshit. Yoshi even makes ZeRo rage. He is pure retardation on the screen.

Edit: nah, Yoshi is safer. He doesn't even know what the phrase "commit to an attack" means.
Click to expand...

Ha Yoshi is waaay safer. I remember one time EE (a commentator) called Jigglypuff a "ball of priority," but that's really not the case. Lots of characters completely outprioritize and outrange her.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
NamikazeBurst said:
GGs. Honestly. if Jigglypuff had a projectile instead of sing, and the weight of Yoshi, I would say she is better. Her fair lasts forever and goes through everything, and the jumps and air dodges are more deceptive than DDD. Yoshi has a lot of trouble killing, and Jigglypuff seems to do just fine on a character of Yoshi's weight. Of course, you might not believe me when I say Yoshi has trouble killing, but not many other characters regularly get their opponents to 150%+, including Mewtwo.

My Lucario sucks. I couldn't figure out anything against Jiggly except for run away and Aura Sphere.
Click to expand...
I found it pretty funny that after complaining that I always run away and spam Shadow Ball against Yoshi, your not-Mewtwo was spamming them against my not-Yoshi. That's why I said they are parallel situations. I hope it helps you understand why I do what I do with Mewtwo. I really just don't feel like I have a lot of options.

I don't think Yoshi has trouble killing. I think he is pretty average. Characters like Pit and Mario have trouble killing. You just rarely go for air dodge baits, so your kill moves don't land. The early kills you got on Jiggs were all smart air dodge baits into Uair. I don't feel like you make a lot of reads. Playing a character with good frame data tends to leave that underdeveloped.

My Jiggs has trouble killing, but that is because I am awful at landing Rest. On that note, you should be able to recover from Sing first. Were you mashing?

Honestly, if Jigglypuff has a good projectile like Egg Toss or Needles, she would probably be undefeatable. She can already be pretty campy as-is if she wants to be. Her aerial mobility is the best in the game, even if Yoshi has slightly more control and more options in the air.

Fair (two long stubs) doesn't hang out long at all. Maybe you are mixing it with Nair (one short stub)? I would agree that Nair lasts forever.

My only real complaint about Jigglypuff is that her attacks are often punishable at low %. It isn't just her, but damn. Sakurai needs to go through and reconfigure the base hitstun on a lot of skills at low %. It is just so dumb for a lot of characters right now. Mewtwo's Uair and Bair can both be punished if they aren't spaced well.

Cronox said:
Ha Yoshi is waaay safer. I remember one time EE (a commentator) called Jigglypuff a "ball of priority," but that's really not the case. Lots of characters completely outprioritize and outrange her.
Click to expand...
Yeah, she has mid priority. However, her aerial acceleration allows her to abuse her priority better than most characters, which makes her seem high priority. She trades SO OFTEN, and it is unfortunate since she can't afford to.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Karsticles said:
I found it pretty funny that after complaining that I always run away and spam Shadow Ball against Yoshi, your not-Mewtwo was spamming them against my not-Yoshi. That's why I said they are parallel situations. I hope it helps you understand why I do what I do with Mewtwo. I really just don't feel like I have a lot of options.

I don't think Yoshi has trouble killing. I think he is pretty average. Characters like Pit and Mario have trouble killing. You just rarely go for air dodge baits, so your kill moves don't land. The early kills you got on Jiggs were all smart air dodge baits into Uair. I don't feel like you make a lot of reads. Playing a character with good frame data tends to leave that underdeveloped.

My Jiggs has trouble killing, but that is because I am awful at landing Rest. On that note, you should be able to recover from Sing first. Were you mashing?

Honestly, if Jigglypuff has a good projectile like Egg Toss or Needles, she would probably be undefeatable. She can already be pretty campy as-is if she wants to be. Her aerial mobility is the best in the game, even if Yoshi has slightly more control and more options in the air.

Fair (two long stubs) doesn't hang out long at all. Maybe you are mixing it with Nair (one short stub)? I would agree that Nair lasts forever.

My only real complaint about Jigglypuff is that her attacks are often punishable at low %. It isn't just her, but damn. Sakurai needs to go through and reconfigure the base hitstun on a lot of skills at low %. It is just so dumb for a lot of characters right now. Mewtwo's Uair and Bair can both be punished if they aren't spaced well.


Yeah, she has mid priority. However, her aerial acceleration allows her to abuse her priority better than most characters, which makes her seem high priority. She trades SO OFTEN, and it is unfortunate since she can't afford to.
Click to expand...

I was thinking that since you said that was how it felt to be against Yoshi. I was a Mewtwo-like character with the charging and running away, and you were Yoshi with the spaced aerials.

As I said, you might not agree with Yoshi not being able to kill, but he really can't. His best kill options are extremely predictable - fair and uair. Otherwise I need a nair at 150% at the ledge or off-stage, a down-B which is mostly a read tool, or usmash or fsmash, and lol at fsmash. Those uair kills I got were surprising. Every other time I went for uair you were able to do two air dodge extremely quickly, and I didn't know how to get in between them. The ones I got seemed like you were able to do another air dodge right away.

I try to do some reads, but with such a bad pivot grab it essentially only allows me to use a reverse down-B, or an usmash. I do try to bait air dodges, but it is really hard against Mewtwo and Jigglypuff. I get successful baits a lot more often on other characters.

I was mashing on sing. Maybe I don't mash fast enough, but I was mashing pretty hard.

No idea what move it was, but the aerial allowed you to hit me even after I air/spot dodged right as you were about to be on Yoshi.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Anonymous Tipster said:
Is he? I don't really follow players.

He won a few against him earlier.


Aaaand of course they're done now.
Click to expand...

Yeah, FOW has been one of the closest players to beating ZeRo. This was way back in December though, but Diddy was also a lot better back then.

That is way it goes. I win like 2-3 against Shamrock, and I get bodied the rest.

Seeing Sky get 2-stocked and lose to a bair sure was fun :p
 
K

Karsticles

Member
NamikazeBurst said:
I was thinking that since you said that was how it felt to be against Yoshi. I was a Mewtwo-like character with the charging and running away, and you were Yoshi with the spaced aerials.

As I said, you might not agree with Yoshi not being able to kill, but he really can't. His best kill options are extremely predictable - fair and uair. Otherwise I need a nair at 150% at the ledge or off-stage, a down-B which is mostly a read tool, or usmash or fsmash, and lol at fsmash. Those uair kills I got were surprising. Every other time I went for uair you were able to do two air dodge extremely quickly, and I didn't know how to get in between them. The ones I got seemed like you were able to do another air dodge right away.

I try to do some reads, but with such a bad pivot grab it essentially only allows me to use a reverse down-B, or an usmash. I do try to bait air dodges, but it is really hard against Mewtwo and Jigglypuff. I get successful baits a lot more often on other characters.

I was mashing on sing. Maybe I don't mash fast enough, but I was mashing pretty hard.

No idea what move it was, but the aerial allowed you to hit me even after I air/spot dodged right as you were about to be on Yoshi.
Click to expand...
Your KO move list:
Uair
Fair
Down B
Usmash
Fsmash

I would also add Bair, personally. That looks like a fine kill move list to me. Mewtwo's:

Shadow Ball
Usmash
Fsmash
Dsmash
Uthrow
Fair

Those seem pretty typical to me.

Jiggs:

Bair
Rest
Fsmash

That's it.

Bowser...everything kills, haha. Even jab at 150%.

Sheik:
Side B
Up B
Usmash
Fsmash
Uair

I think the characters that have the hardest time killing are those without safe KO options. Mewtwo has a nice list, but ALL of those moves except for Dsmash are crazy unsafe. Yoshi's kill moves are all safe except for Down B. That is huge. It is part of what makes him so frustrating. Most characters need to go in and get a hard read to finish the stock. Yoshi doesn't.
 
F

Forkball

Member
I got a New 3DS so I've been revisiting Smash 3DS and wanted to note a few things.

+The c-nub isn't as great as I thought it would be. It's very responsive, but it's not a gamechanger like I presumed.
+The AI seems way cheaper than the Wii U version. I remember many complained about the split second blocks when the 3DS version came out and I can definitely feel how it's different from the Wii U AI.
+Wii U really needs some of these 3DS stages.
+I miss a lot of the music from the Wii U version.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Karsticles said:
Your KO move list:
Uair
Fair (doesn't kill without the spike until really high %)
Down B (unsafe, aerial one doesn't kill until higher % or near top blast zone)
Usmash (safest smash but still unsafe)
Fsmash (very unsafe, long start-up)

I would also add Bair, personally. That looks like a fine kill move list to me. Mewtwo's:

Shadow Ball
Usmash
Fsmash
Dsmash
Uthrow
Fair

Those seem pretty typical to me.

Jiggs:

Bair
Rest
Fsmash

That's it.

Bowser...everything kills, haha. Even jab at 150%.

Sheik:
Side B (do you mean down B?)
Up B
Usmash
Fsmash
Uair

I think the characters that have the hardest time killing are those without safe KO options. Mewtwo has a nice list, but ALL of those moves except for Dsmash are crazy unsafe. Yoshi's kill moves are all safe except for Down B. That is huge. It is part of what makes him so frustrating. Most characters need to go in and get a hard read to finish the stock. Yoshi doesn't.
Click to expand...

Bair can kill, but you need the third hit and also high % unless you are a decent amount off-stage.

Yoshi does have a hard time killing. The majority of Yoshis would agree, and it is probably his biggest weakness. None of his grabs kill, ever. They also don't lead into anything because you just need to jump away to dodge an uair read. His kill moves are in no way safe, except for uair, and that is unsafe against some characters (Ness).

Again, you aren't going to agree with me because I have barely played your Bowser compared to Mewtwo. Even then, you have survived as Mewtwo at 180%+ multiple times. I should never have dair stage-spiking on every hit.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
NamikazeBurst said:
Bair can kill, but you need the third hit and also high % unless you are a decent amount off-stage.

Yoshi does have a hard time killing. The majority of Yoshis would agree, and it is probably his biggest weakness. None of his grabs kill, ever. They also don't lead into anything because you just need to jump away to dodge an uair read. His kill moves are in no way safe, except for uair, and that is unsafe against some characters (Ness).

Again, you aren't going to agree with me because I have barely played your Bowser compared to Mewtwo. Even then, you have survived as Mewtwo at 180%+ multiple times. I should never have dair stage-spiking on every hit.
Click to expand...
I get that high because you keep going for grabs and Egg Toss past kill %. :p I could get you to 400% if I wanted to, but I would rather kill, haha.

Most characters don't have kill grabs. You are just dealing with what 90% of the roster has to. You need to be vulnerable and make a read to finish the job early!
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Karsticles said:
I get that high because you keep going for grabs and Egg Toss past kill %. :p I could get you to 400% if I wanted to, but I would rather kill, haha.

Most characters don't have kill grabs. You are just dealing with what 90% of the roster has to. You need to be vulnerable and make a read to finish the job early!
Click to expand...

What else am I supposed to do besides a grab when you shield? I am not going to do a random smash when a grab will work. The hitstun from an egg is enough for an uair, so it is a valid option when I am close. It sounds like you want me to burst on towards you and just start throwing out kills moves.

A lot of the roster has a kill throw. They might not be as crazy as Ness', but they do. If they don't, they have something that can set-up to a kill. Yoshi's dthrow technically can lead to an uair read, but if you jump away that opportunity is gone.

I don't mean early. I don't consider 120%+ early. 150%+ is late, in my mind, especially against lighter characters. 150% on Dedede is actually early :S
 
B

Boney

Banned
FSLink said:
To be honest I feel Mario and Pit have an easier time killing than Yoshi.
Click to expand...
Mario definately, Pit I don't think so. Mario can easily kill with the bullshit back air and up smash, which are ridiculous frankly. Super safe and great knockback. Then he also has down smash which is really good, fsmash for a read heavy early kil, and even dair can kill at high percents. Also, that freakin cape.

Pit on the other hand really really needs to commit. Fsmash is ridiculously unsafe (although super fast), up smash has a horrible angle and again ridiculously unsafe on block and whiff. Dsmash is super fast and safe, but has very little knockback and it's not a good kill move. Back air has ridiculous ending lag for no reason and needs to hit with the tip, while side b has armor it's super telegraphed and punishable on block. Fthrow is great but unless you're literally on the edge, it doesn't kill even at 160. He also has the tools to gimp easily but he really needs to commit his kill move.

And I think you guys are underselling Yoshi kill power. Up air is ridiculously fast and strong and many of his moves (like fair will link to it guaranteed or at least give you the option like command grab). Fair will eat your whole shield and doesn't expose you to any harm, links to many moves on stage, is the absolute best spike in the game (which you can combo off other stuff). Back air lasts an eternity, can pull you towards the ledge as it's hitting you and has really strong knockback, especially for a multi hit move. His fsmash curls him up like Falcon's so you can throw it out a lot more safely because of that, countless times I've whiffed something that should've hit for me to die against that giant head. It's ending lag is alright as well it's not so bad because it pushes you very far. Up smash angle is just stupid considering it's ko potential and quickness, it's insanely good, ko's with like 130 degrees and your back at least is safe and pushes people away, this move's reach is bonkers. And finally his down b can punish anything because it's super fast, insane priority, amazing knockback, it's relatively safe due to the stars and will eat 90% of your shield.

Yoshi isn't Ness tier of bullshit in terms of ko moves, but I wouldn't put him far. It's sort of made ok because he doesn't have a kill grab, but he definately can get around that.
 
E

Esque7

Member
Finally ordered a GC adapter! Hopefully when I get to playing again I'll be a little better as I've been using the pad all along.
 
S

Snacks the sober sea lion

Member
Forkball said:
I got a New 3DS so I've been revisiting Smash 3DS and wanted to note a few things.

+The c-nub isn't as great as I thought it would be. It's very responsive, but it's not a gamechanger like I presumed.
+The AI seems way cheaper than the Wii U version. I remember many complained about the split second blocks when the 3DS version came out and I can definitely feel how it's different from the Wii U AI.
+Wii U really needs some of these 3DS stages.
+I miss a lot of the music from the Wii U version.
Click to expand...

Wii U AI is super cheap on level 9, though. They'll dodge everything.

I'm going to play Peach or Lucario and some Lucas or something for a while. I can't beat Ike, Mewtwo, Roy, Captain Falcon, and probably a couple other characters with Greninja at all.
 
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