NamikazeBurst
Member
Good games. My friend is saying she thinks you're not good and that I need a real partner next time. Also, apparently there was input lag. All these excuses to cover up for their low level play!
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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Good games. My friend is saying she thinks you're not good and that I need a real partner next time. Also, apparently there was input lag. All these excuses to cover up for their low level play!
Anonymous Tipster
Member
Sounds like she's still feeling that KO punch.
Karsticles
Member
LOL, Nami, you partnered with Tipster instead of your IRL friends?
Anonymous Tipster
Member
NamikazeBurst
Member
My IRL friend (more of a Facebook friend now that we don't go to the same school) plays locally with her brother.
Nothing I am saying to her is changing her mind. She thinks Tipster is worse than me, and a bad partner in general, there was input lag and the connection was bad, and that they are both good at the game. Just can't accept the fact that both Tipster and I destroyed them, especially when we were our mains. When I was Yoshi and Tipster was Mega Man, we would lose 1 stock a piece.
Exact same boat for me. I got Bayonetta 2, and put an hour into Bayonetta 1. What I played is good, but I just can't get myself to put the disc in. I got Splatoon at launch, and I have played like 3.5 hours. Great game, lots of fun, but I don't play it for some reason.
Karsticles
Member
So they always lost, but they think they're better than you?
NamikazeBurst
Member
I don't know about that, but they said I am better than Tipster and I should get a real partner next time. Tipster and I lost 1 match. The funny thing is that she brought up an example of the "input lag" and it was during the match they won on Temple. Her brother was using Ness and used up-B and put it right into the wall in the bottom cave. Apparently the "input lag" caused him to make the PK Thunder go right instead of left.
I sure hope they don't think they're better than Tipster or me. I don't think I have played a doubles match on here that was so one-sided, to give a comparison.
Karsticles
Member
IDK. Maybe they're just being typically biased friends.
Bayonetta 2 was great and I was completely hyped to play it when it came out. It's a great game. I replayed through Bayonetta 1 and got halfway through 2 and then Smash came out. It's one of those "ugh, I have to change the disc" kind of things.
Marvel vs Capcom 3 has so many battle-interrupting zoom-ins, slowdowns, and I dislike any 2d fighter where you can jump high enough that your opponent can't be seen. The baseline for a fighting game should be that you can see your opponent... Not into the thing where seemingly everyone has an infinite so it's just a matter of who can get the first hit, and I've never like tag-team fighting game dynamics either. I'm just not the right guy for that game. Now Soul Calibur... Namco should get on making a new one of those. If they're willing to give it the dev time it needs this time around, anyway. Edit: after this post I looked up some competitive Soul Calibur footage on youtube and man... I shoulda gone to tournaments back in college when I was playing a ton of Soul Calibur 2. I was watching a Cervantes/Ivy match that looked basically like the matches I was having with my best friend (playing the same characters) back in 2004/5. Wonder how well I could have done... SC2 was the perfect fighting game to me. The gimmicky stuff that came with SC 4 and 5 kinda took me out of it.
I may not even end up seriously taking up Sheik. I'm trying out ZSS right now too, as a kind of Sheik substitute where I don't feel I have to work as hard. Even dabbling with DLC characters, and I'd dabble with Mii Brawler but fucking Sakurai decided we can't use them on for glory, which has never made any sense. The thing is, I get impatient when I'm playing these characters. I don't like losing. If I know I can beat my opponent with Bowser and I lose a few times in a row, it's really difficult to not switch to him. Honestly, I have more fun playing Bowser. Part of that is familiarity, part of that is getting away with his bigger moves (had the most satisfying dair spike on a Roy earlier). These things don't carry over into tournaments, but for glory is so far away from tournaments that it's hard to remember that I'm trying to get good with a character that can take me further.
Bayonetta is the best action game series around. I prefer it to DMC, and Ninja Gaiden hasn't had a great entry since Ninja Gaiden Black at this point. But these phases happen - over the years I've gone through a few. Back in the day, I spend a year and a half playing almost nothing but an MMO called Anarchy Online. At some point, I'd had my fill of it and returned to playing all sorts of other games. I suspect it'll be the same with Smash for me. But I haven't had my fill yet.
Clever dude.
Wyndstryker
Member
I've recently realized how scary Zelda can be at super deep edge guarding. The only way to truly maximize it though is learning how to ledge cancel teleports. Then you can actually launch someone across a stage and be able to finish them off.
I can Play for a bit
I can Play for a bit
alright, room's up
Hey so I have an idea. We both main Zelda and we both play her differently, and we both do well with her. I think it'd be a good idea to send eachother replays of some matches to get an idea of what we both do and how we can work some of those things into our playstyles.
I have a capture card aswell, so I can upload some of these to youtube to make it easier to watch.
Karsticles
Member
MvC3 doesn't have slowdown aside from hitstop, which every fighter has these days.
It never zooms in, either. Smash also has moments where you can't tell what your opponent is doing - weird camera zooms when you are both off-stage, and you can't even see the platform. It could use a fix, honestly.
Losing sight of your opponent is annoying. I wish the screen zoomed out in Marvel like Arcana Hearts. However, you get used to gauging the little icon beneath you. No one has an infinite on point - you only get an infinite if you tag to a partner, which is breakable. It's an unfortunate glitch in the game.
SC2 was great. All downhill from there. I loved playing on the ice stage...
Ah, sounds like you have an issue with patience.
Morrigan has a [really hard, completely impractical for the number of reps you would need to kill someone] non-TAC infinite. I think Spencer also has one? Maybe Spencer's is just a really long loop, I don't know, it does garbage for damage compared to his normal combos and is only good for leveling up Frank or timing out phoenix teams. Neither is a real problem, but they do exist!
But yeah, TACs are the actual problem with that game.
NamikazeBurst
Member
I'll play. No idea how long I can play for. It might only be 20 minutes.
Karsticles
Member
Oh yeah, Morrigan has one. So does Skrull. I forgot. Still, no one has ever done either in a competitive match...or even long in training mode. They are low damage, extremely high execution, and situational. Both only work if your opponent is in the corner.
Spencer's is the most impractical of the three. It's a tough series of links that do 10,000 damage each. Most characters have 1,000,000 life, so you're going to be doing that for a while, haha. Not even factoring damage decay in.
C. Viper also has a point infinite that MarlinPie has almost pulled off successfully once.
None of these factor into competitive play right now, though, which is what I meant.
If TAC infinites were gone, the most-used character in that game, Dr. Doom, would plummet in usage. He would still have some of the best assists in the game, but he wouldn't be the best general support character.
NamikazeBurst
Member
Karsticles
Member
Relevant to the topic below:
One of the Nintendo Treehouse members went to Evo and said the experience has changed his life and opened his eyes. I am hoping this leads to good things for us.
I mostly do the Yoshi thing as a running joke.
I do think Yoshi and Sheik are in a tier of characters that create a weird separation in this game, and it's the separation that leads to top tier characters vs. everyone else. The separation is based on safe aggression.
Sheik, Yoshi, Mario, Luigi, etc. all have safe aggressive options. Hell, look at how Ally just RAN IN with Mario and went for a grab. If the opponent rolled away, he just chased after him again. That is MAGICAL to me. If Mewtwo or Bowser go for a grab, they have almost a FULL SECOND of recovery. This is enough time to punish them on a whiffed grab attempt after the opponent has rolled. Think about that. It means that Mario can just say "I want to go for a grab", and if he misses, no big deal. He tries something else. If Mewtwo or Bowser (or many other characters - I'm just focusing on my own familiarity) go for a grab and miss, they might DIE.
The game needs to be balanced and evolve in one direction or another. Either the characters with ludicrous safe options need to be brought down, or the characters with almost no safe offensive options need tremendous help.
I am in favor of buffing over nerfing. I would rather see this game become more like Melee.
Sheik's strengths go beyond this, though. It isn't just that she has amazing offense - that much is true. She also has INCREDIBLE defense. Her needles let her camp, she has the best roll in the game, and she has fantastic OoS options.
Which of those are not okay in this game?
It has to be the rolls. Invincible movement to escape a pressure environment is incredible. Smash isn't the only game with such an option, though - Persona 4 Arena also has rolls, but they are high risk. Rolls should be high risk in Smash. You should be so terrified of the pressure that you think "Okay, I have to go for this". It shouldn't be "Eh, I think I'll just roll this way" any time someone runs toward you.
Honestly, I think all of Smash 4 needs to be retooled. Since release, I have felt like it is just not well balanced in its gameplay approaches. I think all of the following needs to be true:
1) Shield Regeneration should be significantly slower.
2) Rolls have ~10 more recovery frames on average.
3) Every character has safe approach and pressure options.
4) Shieldstun increase across the board (Bowser Bomb should be a "true shield combo").
5) Landing lag removed on most of the game's aerials.
I know some people aren't big fans of 5, but look at the top 8:
1. ZeRo (Sheik, Diddy Kong)
2. LLL|Mr R (Sheik)
3. Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
4. ASA|Abadango (Sheik)
5. Boreal_Ally (Mario, Marth)
5. IQHQ|Dabuz (Rosalina & Luma, Olimar)
7. PG|Esam (Pikachu)
7. GW|Fow (Ness)
Aside from Pikachu and Olimar, ALL of those characters have safe aerials. For some of them, their entire aerial moveset has no landing lag at all. Others have to be a bit selective in their choices, but they still have options. It's necessary for them to be competitive. Even Bowser, who should stay mostly grounded, NEEDS no lag on his Bair for a risk-free kill option in the neutral.
I'll stop there, because otherwise I'll write a book on Smash 4's problems.
One of the Nintendo Treehouse members went to Evo and said the experience has changed his life and opened his eyes. I am hoping this leads to good things for us.
LOL, it's obviously Sheik.
I mostly do the Yoshi thing as a running joke.
I do think Yoshi and Sheik are in a tier of characters that create a weird separation in this game, and it's the separation that leads to top tier characters vs. everyone else. The separation is based on safe aggression.
Sheik, Yoshi, Mario, Luigi, etc. all have safe aggressive options. Hell, look at how Ally just RAN IN with Mario and went for a grab. If the opponent rolled away, he just chased after him again. That is MAGICAL to me. If Mewtwo or Bowser go for a grab, they have almost a FULL SECOND of recovery. This is enough time to punish them on a whiffed grab attempt after the opponent has rolled. Think about that. It means that Mario can just say "I want to go for a grab", and if he misses, no big deal. He tries something else. If Mewtwo or Bowser (or many other characters - I'm just focusing on my own familiarity) go for a grab and miss, they might DIE.
The game needs to be balanced and evolve in one direction or another. Either the characters with ludicrous safe options need to be brought down, or the characters with almost no safe offensive options need tremendous help.
I am in favor of buffing over nerfing. I would rather see this game become more like Melee.
Sheik's strengths go beyond this, though. It isn't just that she has amazing offense - that much is true. She also has INCREDIBLE defense. Her needles let her camp, she has the best roll in the game, and she has fantastic OoS options.
Which of those are not okay in this game?
It has to be the rolls. Invincible movement to escape a pressure environment is incredible. Smash isn't the only game with such an option, though - Persona 4 Arena also has rolls, but they are high risk. Rolls should be high risk in Smash. You should be so terrified of the pressure that you think "Okay, I have to go for this". It shouldn't be "Eh, I think I'll just roll this way" any time someone runs toward you.
Honestly, I think all of Smash 4 needs to be retooled. Since release, I have felt like it is just not well balanced in its gameplay approaches. I think all of the following needs to be true:
1) Shield Regeneration should be significantly slower.
2) Rolls have ~10 more recovery frames on average.
3) Every character has safe approach and pressure options.
4) Shieldstun increase across the board (Bowser Bomb should be a "true shield combo").
5) Landing lag removed on most of the game's aerials.
I know some people aren't big fans of 5, but look at the top 8:
1. ZeRo (Sheik, Diddy Kong)
2. LLL|Mr R (Sheik)
3. Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
4. ASA|Abadango (Sheik)
5. Boreal_Ally (Mario, Marth)
5. IQHQ|Dabuz (Rosalina & Luma, Olimar)
7. PG|Esam (Pikachu)
7. GW|Fow (Ness)
Aside from Pikachu and Olimar, ALL of those characters have safe aerials. For some of them, their entire aerial moveset has no landing lag at all. Others have to be a bit selective in their choices, but they still have options. It's necessary for them to be competitive. Even Bowser, who should stay mostly grounded, NEEDS no lag on his Bair for a risk-free kill option in the neutral.
I'll stop there, because otherwise I'll write a book on Smash 4's problems.
NamikazeBurst
Member
Good games. Nice Luigi. It was pretty clear you didn't have much experience against Yoshi, but I can't blame you, I don't either. I can't really practice against myself xD
I do have a lot of problems fighting characters that can zone me out as Luigi. Characters like Samus, Lucas, and Mewtwo are pretty difficult for me to beat. Luigi's problem is if you don't powershield, you can't punish anything. He is knocked back far enough by the weakest attacks that he can't shield grab. I do know I used to have a lot of problems fighting Luigi as Yoshi. Don't give Yoshi space, use a mix-up of ground and aerial fireballs to block my approaches, and just take what you can get. We both have really good nairs, so don't try to get stuff that isn't guaranteed if you don't want to take the risk of a nair. Also, don't roll towards more or jump right after a jab combo or throw. I get fairs off of those all day long.
The OP thing was mostly a joke I used to segue the question. I know why sheik is so good, I am actually legitimate curious what do you think about Yoshi seems whether a joke or not you keep bringing him up, so I want to know what you actual think of the character.
Now that you mentioned it though, I disagree with number 5, I like the commitment you have to put on the aerials (or moves in general). That's why landing a knee is. Go, some has big Landing lag, you have to commit.
Its why I dislike sonic in general, sonic will never get married cause he doesn't know what commitment is.
NamikazeBurst
Member
Professor Beef
Banned
Sup everyone
Sorry I didn't get to send Zero to loser's, we never got a chance to meet in the bracket.
Sorry I didn't get to send Zero to loser's, we never got a chance to meet in the bracket.
You are forgiven.
If you play me on the 3ds version.
For real though, there was lots of competition out there, I believe you went 3-2? Not bad.
Would love to go myself someday.
I definately agree about the clear separation in tiers. Maybe it's because I play mostly low tiers but all of these characters make sense in their design. Every move has a pro and a con, there's moves and situations which you have to create, there's no get out of jail free cards like bullshit nairs and stuff. You need to work for all of the situations and they're really earned.
It's a fundamental flaw because the game isn't balanced around competitive play. If samus for example was better, everyone would cry like they did with little Mac, hell, people cry about samus already and she's one of the worst characters in the game.
There needs to be a change of direction, that goes from top play to bottom play. I mean, I can't believe we don't get patch notes for crying out loud, that's the bare minimum to support the community.
The buffs some low tiers recieved this last patch gives me a little hope (Mewtwo one was insulting honestly) but still. I love the game but it has problems. Everyone should strive to be high tiers, characters need obvious shortcomings while still being able to excell.
It's a fundamental flaw because the game isn't balanced around competitive play. If samus for example was better, everyone would cry like they did with little Mac, hell, people cry about samus already and she's one of the worst characters in the game.
There needs to be a change of direction, that goes from top play to bottom play. I mean, I can't believe we don't get patch notes for crying out loud, that's the bare minimum to support the community.
The buffs some low tiers recieved this last patch gives me a little hope (Mewtwo one was insulting honestly) but still. I love the game but it has problems. Everyone should strive to be high tiers, characters need obvious shortcomings while still being able to excell.
Shame I couldn't even see you play
LT is a monster man. Very smart player.
Nice meeting you in person, next time let's try to get some IRL casuals.
Also can't wait for customs to be banned for scrubby reasons. (there's good arguments against customs but I don't think it's the majority of opinions + don't think they've been tested enough yet)
SolarKnight
Member
#2 is what I want more than anything. There's almost nothing in the game you can punish after a spot dodge that you can't punish after a roll. The risk/reward skew is completely absurd for some characters. Why would you ever spot dodge against characters like Mario/Luigi/Sonic? They can punish you for spot dodging their grab at anything but the earliest possible frame with another grab, and their dash attacks are all active enough to catch spot dodges anyway. It's literally a lose/lose option.
Increased recovery on a lot of non-tether grabs and increased recovery on rolls would make grab reads more worthwhile and the current "safe" defensive option consistently punishable on reaction.
Between 4 and 5, I don't think either really does much besides homogenize the game into a single dominant playstyle. It would definitely make more characters viable, but it'd do so by making more characters play exactly like Mario already does, so I mean... eh. I'd rather see shieldstun changed entirely so it's not just based on an attack's damage. I like the idea of something like bowser bomb being a real threat on shield. A Bowser running at you should not be less intimidating than Luigi doing the same. I don't like the idea of Sheik mashing Ftilt in my face becoming a legit blockstring and forcing me to roll or have a fast OoS option to deal with it.
The way it is now leads to goofy situations like Pikachu's Fair or Lucas's Nair where the last hit does such low damage individually that the defending player can act before the attacker is even out of hitstop, which is just nonsense.
I think offensively, excluding a few outliers like Ness's Uair and Yoshi's Nair, things are pretty balanced right now. The problem is punishing the slower/stronger end of that balance requires no commitment. Charizard with proper combo/kill throws is a far better character than Charizard without either because now he actually threatens someone that just sits in their shield.
Similarly, Bowser should be relatively safe on block, but still have plenty of recovery on whiff. More blockstun for him means opponents need to outspace him or commit to a read if they want a punish. Without landing lag, he just mashes Nair/Bair all day and anyone without a strong projectile or a sword gets to sit back and scratch their head.
More blockstun for someone like Sheik means she's even safer and still doesn't actually care what her opponent is doing. It's something that needs changing, but the change shouldn't be universal.
I didn't mean slowdown in terms of FPS, but many of the special moves seem to zoom in on the character's face, taking half the screen before they use their attack. It's that freeze when character's activate various specials that annoys me, it changes the tempo of the game compared to others. And technicalities aside, once you get a hit on a character, you can hit them until they die, regardless of if you use team attacks or tag-ins to do it.
Yeah as far as I'm concerned the camera in Smash should always show the ground. Always annoying to have to guesstimate my Bowser Bomb ledge cancels because my opponent is jumping up to challenge me.
Switching from Bowser to another character is like losing a 200 hour save file in some huge RPG and having to go back to a save 20 hours in. It's frustrating to play so sloppy, to over/undershoot things, to die in stupid ways, to walk into Roy's noob fsmashes cause I'm standing there flicking an unresponsive c-stick set to attack... all the things I've gotten past or don't have to deal with with Bowser. Bowser is the only character I've ever been able to play truly seriously in this game, and I don't know if I have the will to change that, or if I even want to. We'll see.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Glad to see you lightening up, if anyone deserves to be everyone's pocket character it's Falcon. :^)
I'm aroundRan out of milk so I had to use soy milk and I'm pretty upset so I'm not pulling any punches
Professor Beef
Banned
Agreed
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
NamikazeBurst
Member
Y'all better get good with Yoshi because I need practice. Can't shadow box in Smash
Here I am, so unselfish, where I let you practice against high tier characters like Yoshi and Luigi, and if you want, you can even play my Sheik. Eventually I will have Lucario, Toon Link, and Donkey Kong in the line-up for practice. The least you guys could do is play Yoshi so I can get some practice.
Here I am, so unselfish, where I let you practice against high tier characters like Yoshi and Luigi, and if you want, you can even play my Sheik. Eventually I will have Lucario, Toon Link, and Donkey Kong in the line-up for practice. The least you guys could do is play Yoshi so I can get some practice.
Professor Beef
Banned
Well it's either Yoshi or Pika as side characters for me. Haven't decided yet.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Y'all better get good with Yoshi because I need practice. Can't shadow box in Smash
Here I am, so unselfish, where I let you practice against high tier characters like Yoshi and Luigi, and if you want, you can even play my Sheik. Eventually I will have Lucario, Toon Link, and Donkey Kong in the line-up for practice. The least you guys could do is play Yoshi so I can get some practice.
no
Well let me know when you stop playing for glory