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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
Well, yeah, but making some matchups worse is kind of inherent in the concept of custom moves. The real issue is when a custom move either makes a matchup unwinnable, the character receives a general power boost from the custom, or the character's gameplay shifts to revolve around the custom. I don't think any of those apply to Ice Ball. If Bowser is on the ledge, he is 95% fucked by Ice Ball spam until he can be frozen, though.
If we are talking about customs that create horrid matchups, Duck Hunt Dog's Big Gunmen makes the matchup impossible for Mewtwo and Samus.
Shin_Okita
Member
anybody up for a few games!!!
Karsticles
Member
Yeah, the Big Gunmen are way too good in some matchups.
This is why customs are problematic.
Hey Wynd, I got around to watching those replays you sent me. That stage spike against Sheik was hilarious. Don't know if that was intentional or not, but either way it was great. As for the match overall, the Sheik was doing well but you brought it back well. It seems like you don't use nair, jab, d-tilt or up-tilt much or at all.
Nair, along with neutral-b is a pretty decent combo breaker and Zelda's safest landing option besides escaping with up-b. There were a lot of moments in that Sheik fight where you could've used nair to either escape a combo, land safely or hit sheik right before she hit you.
I've started using Jab rather than trying to use f-smash or d-smash for certain situations. It's not good for damage, but at low percents it can net you a grab or dash-attack. At high percents it sends people at a low horizontal angle and so it's easy to miss the tech, which can be pretty handy. It's also another handy tool to get out of a high pressure situation.
Up-tilt is a handy anti-air tool, that has a ok hitbox and isn't really unsafe to use like up-smash. It's not the best of combo tools, but it has it's uses against heavy characters and fast-fallers.
D-tilt is honestly one of Zelda's best attacks. It has very low knockback so at low percents it combos into itself against medium/heavy characters. It can also combo into grab and at high percents setup into up-smash, f-smash, elevator, fair or up-air. It's a decent poke too.
I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know, but I feel like those are some of the big differences between our playstyles. You seem to go for a lot of hard-reads and rack up damage with Zelda's stronger attacks, whereas I play it safe and tilts and grabs a lot more.
I have actually adapted some of the things you do with into my playstyle and it's been working pretty well for me!
I'm also gonna upload a video later, so look forward to that! lol nevermind accidentally deleted from my computer, so I'll upload it tomorrow instead!
Nair, along with neutral-b is a pretty decent combo breaker and Zelda's safest landing option besides escaping with up-b. There were a lot of moments in that Sheik fight where you could've used nair to either escape a combo, land safely or hit sheik right before she hit you.
I've started using Jab rather than trying to use f-smash or d-smash for certain situations. It's not good for damage, but at low percents it can net you a grab or dash-attack. At high percents it sends people at a low horizontal angle and so it's easy to miss the tech, which can be pretty handy. It's also another handy tool to get out of a high pressure situation.
Up-tilt is a handy anti-air tool, that has a ok hitbox and isn't really unsafe to use like up-smash. It's not the best of combo tools, but it has it's uses against heavy characters and fast-fallers.
D-tilt is honestly one of Zelda's best attacks. It has very low knockback so at low percents it combos into itself against medium/heavy characters. It can also combo into grab and at high percents setup into up-smash, f-smash, elevator, fair or up-air. It's a decent poke too.
I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know, but I feel like those are some of the big differences between our playstyles. You seem to go for a lot of hard-reads and rack up damage with Zelda's stronger attacks, whereas I play it safe and tilts and grabs a lot more.
I have actually adapted some of the things you do with into my playstyle and it's been working pretty well for me!
I'm also gonna upload a video later, so look forward to that! lol nevermind accidentally deleted from my computer, so I'll upload it tomorrow instead!
Zelda's up tilt is fantastic in my opinion
I don't agree with that, just like there are counterpicks, customs are gonna either make the match up harder or it might make it more manageable in some cases like charizard's long range flame blast
NamikazeBurst
Member
Long range? That thing takes up the whole stage!
An argument I see about not banning customs yet is that they haven't been in use for a long time. Well, the same argument can be said for customless. The community didn't give enough time to actually play the game without customs. Specific customs also can't be banned because who gets to decide that? Some think Kong Cyclone is broken, some think its manageable. Customs also can't be allowed for just Palutena or the Mii Fighters because why do they deserve them more? Just because they were unlocked at the start of the game doesn't mean they are more deserving of use. Personally, and I have said this before, I want customs gone. If someone here wants to play with them, that is fine as long as your opponent knows and agrees.
Shamrock7r
Member
Would you agree though that there are some customs, let's say 4 or 5, that change the complexion of the game significantly in encouraging camping and/or spamming, or that kill way too early?
Wyndstryker
Member
lol on the flip side I've started to force myself to a slightly less read heavy play, aka a bit more conservative. Mainly cause when I fight faster chars going hard read heavy is very dangerous. So more nairs and tilts in the works lol. Sure I do end up getting a lot of these hard reads landed but it gets harder the better the opponent is. Basically it's tryign to re-read myself. If the approach doesn't seem very good I'll stick with a safer option like a tilt or nair. And generally stage spiking is intentional with me, unless it's with a teleport. However in that video I was gambling on a ledge cancel, but the stage spike works too lol. Also that video is pretty old so it doesn't have a lot of my playstyle changes.
Definately, and that's the problem with customs and the reason why understand that they want to be banned, a few bad apples are killing it for the rest, and sadly I agree that it has to be all or nothing.
However I'll also say that there are degenerate moves that have no place being so good, namely needles and bouncing fish but that's just how it is.
I'd love a twitter campaign about #fixthejank to at least try to do something before we give up on them, but as they are today there's no room for them in competitive smash.
Like with all moves, customs can be:
- Strictly better than the alternatives, making a specific move slot a no-brainer (ie: Kong Cyclone)
- Sidegrades that help in specific match-ups or playstyles (ie: Crazy Fruits, Ice Balls, DK's Fire DownB, Wario's bikes, Samus' missiles, Ness' non-absorbing magnet)
- Worse than most alternatives (ie: Slow Fruits)
I feel like the bulk of the moves go into the second category, which is the healthiest. Of course a couple are problematic, but I'd rather not ban them altogether just because a couple are too powerful.
Shamrock7r
Member
The problem with the Smash community, is good luck creating a ruleset that only bans certain moves for being too powerful/campy/ and spammy
Well, yeah. Rulesets are always a pain to standarize, but we can always agree to just not use the overly broken ones. I know some of you might want to copy whatever the competitive scene wants to do to hone skills you can later use to play in tourneys, but I'd rather experiment a bit more with them regardless of what the competitive scene says.
I can use some practice. nnid:bark252
I don't think there's a problem per se with strictly more powerful moves. Wizard drop kick is much better than the regular one, but that doesn't make it broken. It's more like Sakurai refuses to change stuff from game to game, while this seems like the perfect reinvention of the move that completely fits ganondorf.
The problem is stuff like up b's like diddy that kill at 60 and needles that go through shields and rosa laser beams
The problem is stuff like up b's like diddy that kill at 60 and needles that go through shields and rosa laser beams
Added.
I agree. Actually, I think moves such as Ganon's custom down B are where the perfect custom balance for "upgrades": It fixes 'Dorf's awful recovery a little bit, gives him an option against some projectiles and generally helps his game a lot without spawning a new playstyle that completely gravitates around that move (unlike Dash Slash) or being downright unfair (since it doesn't have crazy KO potential and can be punished harshly if you overrely on it).
SoldnerKei
Member
I love Ganontruck he is so fair, Same goes for Link, his only custom that is really has worth is his Melee rang, it doesn't change his playstyle nor gives him a big advantage.
I am totally in for that kind of customs, but I'd rather have balanced non-custom characters first thou. Samurai pls.
I am totally in for that kind of customs, but I'd rather have balanced non-custom characters first thou. Samurai pls.
Rooms up
Will join in a sec
We can play; I can make up for last time.
What happened last time?
Last time we fought, I was unfocused and I had to drop out early. Room's up.
Ah right, did you work what was troubling you out?
Does it mean you'll kick my ass?
It's a little laggy
Something had come up while we were playing, so I had to split my attention, and finally focus on the other thing.
But no, heh, I don't think so.
It's a little laggy
Yeah, unfortunately.
Karsticles
Member
Ugh. This is the wrong mentality. Counterpicks are minimal in a balanced game. In Smash, there are very few true counterpicks. There are mostly just characters that are better than everyone else. Choosing a ruleset that advances counterpicking is a bad direction for the game, because it just means fewer characters will be viable in the long run.
If Sakurai isn't going to balance customs, then they shouldn't be used. I am going to give him the theoretical August balance patch, and then I will decide. If Pikachu's customs are untouched, then it is game over for customs.
lol..wondered what happened there
Last Match
GGs! Sorry I wasn't much of a match. Needed the falcon experience.
GGs you did good. Don't roll much against Falcons sincr they can easily punish it with Falcon kick.
Also as falco/fox don't side B into the stage specially at high percents, if they see it coming there goes your stock.
Thanks for the advice.
Shamrock7r
Member
Unfortunately I have to agree with this, unless the banning of certain customs becomes a regular thing which I don't see happening. A shame, because I love the idea of customs, and 80% or so of the customs are fine and awesome.
GGs. Dunno if playing all of the characters is giving me a better understanding of them or not. Probably going to stick to 1-3 again soon and see if my fundamentals have improved.
thecoolFNF
Member
I'm down to play a 1v1 with anyone. NNID thecoolFNF
Yeah I don't know if it's a good strategy to actually improve. But for what's worth, you won most matches lol
Anonymous Tipster
Member
I would partake for a bit
Let's 1vs1 until we get two more.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
Okay, sure.