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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!

O

Owlowiscious

Member
Wyndstryker said:
If your opponent is doing something predictable then bait them to keep doing it. You don't have to commit to every approach. If you can get them into a predictable pattern them you can counter that predictable pattern.
Click to expand...
yes it's very predictable. I don't know how to counter it, though.
 
J

JulianImp

Member
Owlowiscious said:
yes it's very predictable. I don't know how to counter it, though.
Click to expand...

If that's the order, you could:
  1. Short hop-air dodge through PK Fire
  2. Focus Attack through PK Freeze (or just hit him if you can get in with a dash attack or tatsu)
  3. Shield to avoid upsmash, then punish with your attack of choice while Lucas is still busy pulling that needle
 
T

Thulius

Member
Odinson said:
GGs! Man that Falco is crisp. (And all your other characters)
Click to expand...
GGs. Gotta chill with those rolls, they were getting you killed a lot!
Owlowiscious said:
yes it's very predictable. I don't know how to counter it, though.
Click to expand...

Generally if someone's zoning you out, charging in wildly is exactly what they want you to do. In your Ryu vs Lucas example you're ignoring the best option out of run by far, which is to just shield. If he tosses a PK fire, great, you blocked it, gained ground and lost nothing. If not, you... gained ground and lost nothing! Random PK freezes and up smashes have lots of recovery and aren't good for zoning at all, so if you see him doing either of those it's a free punish.

If he's literally just running away then he's eventually going to hit the ledge, which means if he wants to keep running he has to get past you. What you want to do at that point varies wildly with the level your opponent's play, but at low-intermediate levels people will almost always either roll or jump. Neither of those are very good options if you just stand about a roll's distance away and wait. Patience is key.

Edit:
Wyndstryker said:
1. Roll/Shield/Sidestep PK Fire.
2. Fireball
Click to expand...

Ryu's fireball is awful. It trades or loses to pretty much every other projectile in the game and it has tons of recovery. You rarely want to use it against characters with better projectiles, and against Lucas especially you're just going to heal him if you try to play the fireball war. Ryu has to get in in that matchup.
 
W

Wyndstryker

Member
What Thulius said. A player that is rolling/jumping away isn't thinking of attacking you so you end up with virtually unchallenged punish options regardless of how risky they are. The easiest one is if such players are trying to roll past you just turn around and do a smash, most of the time they'll roll into said smash.
 
O

Odinson

Member
Thulius said:
GGs. Gotta chill with those rolls, they were getting you killed a lot!


Generally if someone's zoning you out, charging in wildly is exactly what they want you to do. In your Ryu vs Lucas example you're ignoring the best option out of run by far, which is to just shield. If he tosses a PK fire, great, you blocked it, gained ground and lost nothing. If not, you... gained ground and lost nothing! Random PK freezes and up smashes have lots of recovery and aren't good for zoning at all, so if you see him doing either of those it's a free punish.

If he's literally just running away then he's eventually going to hit the ledge, which means if he wants to keep running he has to get past you. What you want to do at that point varies wildly with the level your opponent's play, but at low-intermediate levels people will almost always either roll or jump. Neither of those are very good options if you just stand about a roll's distance away and wait. Patience is key.

Edit:


Ryu's fireball is awful. It trades or loses to pretty much every other projectile in the game and it has tons of recovery. You rarely want to use it against characters with better projectiles, and against Lucas especially you're just going to heal him if you try to play the fireball war. Ryu has to get in in that matchup.
Click to expand...

I really try not to roll. It's a hard habit to break, but its way less than when I first started playing.
 
S

Sora_N

Member
Man, everyone on For Glory is so fucking good + I suck.

What can I do to improve? I can't win anything and I can't choose a main.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
Let me guess.

Whispy Woods.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah. The stage is fine except for when the tree blows.

JulianImp said:
It might be, but as long as you keep mixing things up it's a nice tool to have. Doing it right after a jump gives you a lot of extra height, even though I've found that doing it from the ground is too hard for me with the SF motion (I get more air if I do it with forward B, since it comes out as soon as Ryu begins to jump).

If you want, we could play a couple of lab matches to try out tatsus in different situations and see how useful they can be. We could also try and see just how much value we can get out of crumples.

Also, I really like how you can even FADC in the air. It looks like a really good option for Ryu, both for fake outs and for tanking the first hit with the FA and moving in for a punish afterwards.

On an unrelated topic, I think I didn't get to play against your Luigi at all using Roy, did I (maybe for a match, I think)? Using the character you're the most comfortable of would probably allow you to focus not on trying stuff out, but rather on noticing patterns and things you could exploit from Roy players.

I also hate it when I get a handicap simply be virtue of catching people off-guard with my characters. While I do get that they just aren't used to my options and all, I feel like winning like that isn't all that great.
Click to expand...

I haven't tried the tatsus much. I find it is like Luigi's side-B where by the time I remember to use it to recover, it is too late. Just something I have on the "Working on" list.

I don't really have a lot of free time right now. I have exams starting on Monday so any time I spend on Smash I would rather be fully playing.

I believe I fought your Roy for a match as Luigi on DL64. I remember this because the Luigi combos weren't working due to your fall speed. The character I am most comfortable with is Yoshi, though, and I wasn't doing too great with him. Your wins were legit, as I could've fully stopped them if I played it safe and didn't rush in, or at least as Luigi and Yoshi I should've been able to. I don't have much experience against a lot of characters in this game, so it isn't just your Roy and Pac-Man.
 
J

JulianImp

Member
NamikazeBurst said:
Well, yeah. The stage is fine except for when the tree blows.



I haven't tried the tatsus much. I find it is like Luigi's side-B where by the time I remember to use it to recover, it is too late. Just something I have on the "Working on" list.

I don't really have a lot of free time right now. I have exams starting on Monday so any time I spend on Smash I would rather be fully playing.

I believe I fought your Roy for a match as Luigi on DL64. I remember this because the Luigi combos weren't working due to your fall speed. The character I am most comfortable with is Yoshi, though, and I wasn't doing too great with him. Your wins were legit, as I could've fully stopped them if I played it safe and didn't rush in, or at least as Luigi and Yoshi I should've been able to. I don't have much experience against a lot of characters in this game, so it isn't just your Roy and Pac-Man.
Click to expand...

I learned that good enough DI allows me to escape from your dthrow>cyclone combos regardless of my current damage, and I remember Boss stopped doing that combo, probably because other people figured that out as well.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
JulianImp said:
I learned that good enough DI allows me to escape from your dthrow>cyclone combos regardless of my current damage, and I remember Boss stopped doing that combo, probably because other people figured that out as well.
Click to expand...

I was referring more to the dthrow to double fair. You would get hit by one as Roy, but then you hit the ground. There is stuff Luigi can do on people with fast falling speeds, but I don't fight them often so I don't have much practice. I am also really bad at the dthrow to cyclone, so I wouldn't even notice it not being my fault that it wasn't working.
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
NamikazeBurst said:
Well, yeah. The stage is fine except for when the tree blows.
Click to expand...

That tree is nowhere near the worst hazard ever. I'd argue Omega Kalos' stupid walls are a worse hazard than the tree and since we live in a world where Lylat Cruise is a starter I think it's valid.

It's been in 3 games now and in one of them it was the only legal stage available, I think you can handle a little wind. It doesn't even affect you off-stage after all if I recall correctly.
 
O

Owlowiscious

Member
Thanks for the tips. Any cue as to when Lucas' up+a is punishable? Most of my attempts I still get hit by it or it's too late and he's blocking/rolling.

Got another problem with how I play: landing.

Whenever I land anywhere I just get smashed and can't block. I think I like to air dodge onto the ground (don't know where/when I picked up that habit) which I think was just mentioned here about something. Maybe I should just be attacking while landing? Any particular attack of Ryu's that's safer when landing?
 
S

Sohter.Nura

Member
Owlowiscious said:
Thanks for the tips. Any cue as to when Lucas' up+a is punishable? Most of my attempts I still get hit by it or it's too late and he's blocking/rolling.

Got another problem with how I play: landing.

Whenever I land anywhere I just get smashed and can't block. I think I like to air dodge onto the ground (don't know where/when I picked up that habit) which I think was just mentioned here about something. Maybe I should just be attacking while landing? Any particular attack of Ryu's that's safer when landing?
Click to expand...

The move has a lot of ending lag on Lucas but the frames are still on even after Lucas has finished moving and is still because of the ending lag. Just gotta get the timing before the last frame of the attack and the ending lag on Lucas' side. You can go to training mode for a second and use the move a couple times to see how long it takes for you to be able to move the character.

For the most part, characters that have a strong Up smash such as Lucas, Luigi or Mario you just want to "land safely". That means, try to just get away from the character as much as possible, if they chase you around you'll have to dance in the air to bait the up smash, get away from it and "reset to neutral". I'm not sure what attacks Ryu has to go against an Up Smash, but characters like Lucas have something called a disjointed hitbox, which means their Up smash for example is actually pretty far away from their body, their "hurtbox". When in a situation like this, no matter how fast you are, the odds are your trade will always be negative to you, and it will always hurt a heck lot more than on your opponent.

As far as air dodge, you have to be careful. You can dodge an Up Smash and land safely, but if you time it incorrectly, either two of the things can happen:
- You can land on the floor during your air dodge, which has a lot of landing lag, so you'll be unable to input a command for a split of a second.
- Your air dodge can finish before the move's frame is over. Lucas' up smash is a great example, you can air dodge when he throws the move on you but when your animation is over, the move will still be active and you'll still be hurt by it.

You really should avoid using landing air dodge, and should for the most part only use it against projectiles when landing (Sheik's needles, Mario's fireballs, etc), or use it when you have absolutely no other option (opponent chased you around when you were in the air and now you've run out of time to escape)
 
R

Ricky 7

Member
Glad Mewtwo's N-air got slightly buffed but he needs a few more tweaks like fixing his grab so it doesn't miss small characters and his Back-air needs less start up.
 
N

NamikazeBurst

Member
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
That tree is nowhere near the worst hazard ever. I'd argue Omega Kalos' stupid walls are a worse hazard than the tree and since we live in a world where Lylat Cruise is a starter I think it's valid.

It's been in 3 games now and in one of them it was the only legal stage available, I think you can handle a little wind. It doesn't even affect you off-stage after all if I recall correctly.
Click to expand...

I never said it was the worst hazard ever. Omega Kalos' walls don't do anything but block wall jumps, and that isn't a lot of characters affected. All I know is the tree made me SD once. If we are arguing legality in general, I would make a lot of changes to the current legal stage list. If we are allowing DL64, we should allow KJ64.
 
S

Snacks the sober sea lion

Member
Owlowiscious said:
Thanks for the tips. Any cue as to when Lucas' up+a is punishable? Most of my attempts I still get hit by it or it's too late and he's blocking/rolling.

Got another problem with how I play: landing.

Whenever I land anywhere I just get smashed and can't block. I think I like to air dodge onto the ground (don't know where/when I picked up that habit) which I think was just mentioned here about something. Maybe I should just be attacking while landing? Any particular attack of Ryu's that's safer when landing?
Click to expand...

Lucas's up smash is one of the slowest moves in the game. There's little reason you should be getting hit by it. You shouldn't be doing ANYTHING when landing because that's exactly what people want you to do in this game. You need to land far away from them. Air dodging into the ground is the worst thing you can do.
 
S

Sohter.Nura

Member
BTW Snacks, thanks for the match the other day. Sorry I had to bust out without thanking you, but I had to bolt out of the house to go to work lol
 
L

leroidys

Member
I see some tips for countering Lucas on this stage- has anyone had luck actually playing as him? I am barely beating level 9s, he just seems abysmal.
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
NamikazeBurst said:
I never said it was the worst hazard ever. Omega Kalos' walls don't do anything but block wall jumps, and that isn't a lot of characters affected. All I know is the tree made me SD once. If we are arguing legality in general, I would make a lot of changes to the current legal stage list. If we are allowing DL64, we should allow KJ64.
Click to expand...

SolarKnight said:
Well honestly I don't think you're gonna find much disagreement with that tbh.
Click to expand...

Yeah tbh I don't mind another stage to camp against Dorf and Mac ;)
 
S

SolarKnight

Member
GGs Juni, shame about those sudden lag spikes now and then but you played well.

Tbh my favorite fight was Roy vs Villager. Your Olimar is coming along fine too
 
J

Juni_

Member
SolarKnight said:
GGs Juni, shame about those sudden lag spikes now and then but you played well.

Tbh my favorite fight was Roy vs Villager. Your Olimar is coming along fine toom
Click to expand...


Ggs the lag was annoying.

Thanks. Probably should have used Olimar more but I really did not want to fight your fox with him.
 
S

SolarKnight

Member
Juni_ said:
Ggs the lag was annoying.

Thanks. Probably should have used Olimar more but I really did not want to fight your fox with him.
Click to expand...

Overly worried by the reflector or just the match up in general?

Oh yeah, btw you put the scores on the spreadsheet backwards :T
 
S

SolarKnight

Member
Juni_ said:
That and fox custom up b kills way to early and Olimar is already a lightweight.

Sorry about that, I fixed it.
Click to expand...

Aaaaaaaactually you undid my correction of it lol

Also, honestly from what I've seen a well placed Roy fsmash would've killed you at similar percentages anyways so *shrug*

Twisting Fox is only really ridiculous if it hits in the higher parts of the stage because of its high base knockback, otherwise it's about on par with other characters' smash attacks from my experience
 
J

Juni_

Member
SolarKnight said:
Aaaaaaaactually you undid my correction of it lol

Also, honestly from what I've seen a well placed Roy fsmash would've killed you at similar percentages anyways so *shrug*

Twisting Fox is only really ridiculous if it hits in the higher parts of the stage because of its high base knockback, otherwise it's about on par with other characters' smash attacks from my experience
Click to expand...

It's late I really should go to sleep. I guess you're right, the reflector is the main reason. I'm probably going to die from a reflected smash attack and hate myself for it.

Although all the characters I use have projectiles that could kill them if reflected so theres that.
 
S

SolarKnight

Member
Juni_ said:
It's late I really should go to sleep. I guess you're right, the reflector is the main reason. I'm probably going to die from a reflected smash attack and hate myself for it.

Although all the characters I use have projectiles that could kill them if reflected so theres that.
Click to expand...

Yeah altho Olimar definitely gets the worst of it considering his moveset is like 80% projectiles and god help you if your fsmash with a purple pikmin gets reflected
 
M

Masked Man

I said wow
leroidys said:
I see some tips for countering Lucas on this stage- has anyone had luck actually playing as him? I am barely beating level 9s, he just seems abysmal.
Click to expand...

I think he feels better than ever! Nair is amazing, and PK Fire and Rope Snake are wonderful for spacing. I've had a considerable amount of success blasting incoming attacks with PSI Magnet, and Ftilt is another solid getaway tool. The folks at Smashboards have already come up with some solid strategies, so give them a look. :)

My only problem is that Rope Snake doesn't seem to extend as far as ZSS's Plasma Whip. :(
 
D

Dimitri LH

Member
Man, I have no idea if ive gotten better with WFT or if the patch did something to her, but I have been feeling DAMN good with her lately! At first I thought she felt lighter and slighty faster, but I just considered that was the placebo taking effect on me. Now im not so sure.
 
S

Snacks the sober sea lion

Member
Bulbasaur said:
Ryu is so much fun to play. I wish my main - Greninja played like this. So Fluid!
Click to expand...

They play really differently, though.

I'm waiting for Shamrock and any competitive players to give some input, but Lucas is looking uncertain. He's unsafe, has no outstanding moves, and struggles against both fast characters and projectile characters. They just kind of threw him in here like it would be good enough, and I don't know if it is.
 
C

Captain Rage Quit 69

Banned
Snacks the sober sea lion said:
They play really differently, though.

I'm waiting for Shamrock and any competitive players to give some input, but Lucas is looking uncertain. He's unsafe, has no outstanding moves, and struggles against both fast characters and projectile characters. They just kind of threw him in here like it would be good enough, and I don't know if it is.
Click to expand...

I tried out Lucas for a bit and he seems good, or at least he didn't have any glaring weaknesses to me besides his recovery taking a bit longer to go into PKT2. I'm not PK experienced, but hey.
 
S

Snacks the sober sea lion

Member
Captain Rage Quit 69 said:
I tried out Lucas for a bit and he seems good, or at least he didn't have any glaring weaknesses to me besides his recovery taking a bit longer to go into PKT2. I'm not PK experienced, but hey.
Click to expand...

Like I said, they tried really damn hard to make him average, and considering how goddamn good they made Roy, that's not good. He has no outstanding strengths or moves to really be afraid of.
 
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