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The Last Guardian |OT| In my memories, the monster always has kind eyes
- Thread starter Agram
- Start date
nelsonroyale
Member
There is a pretty interesting divergence in reactions here. Seems to some extent between those who want a more conventional experience - i.e., more control over Trico - and those that are more intrigued by the idea of interacting with an AI character which actually has some of its own agency. I think it is important that Ueda explored the latter. From a gameplay perspective, I can understand many people desiring the former, but from a conceptual approach, and breaking new ground, taking the latter direction is laudable. And definitely preferable in my opinion. Ueda continuing to break new ground.
wapplew
Member
My Trico is very responsive tho,
mcz117chief
Member
Do you mean after combat? Every time I finish combat he just jumps around indefinitely until I climb in SotC style and pet it. Am I doing something wrong because I have to do this after every combat.
if it worked then sure, it's a nice concept but I don't feel comfortable paying 60€ for a demo of an idea.
lukeskymac
Member
wapplew
Member
I don't felt tedious, he just save my ass, deserve all the petting.
Yee saw Yee saw.
I like this game, but it feels like a frienemy. Maybe that's intentional, given the "Odd Couple" adventure you're on, but I find myself thinking "GotY" one moment then "swear words and punching" the next. The first several hours went smoothly, then Trico seemed to get really stupid for a few. Now he's not so bad again.
I'm probably an hour or two away from the end at this point, and the two quotes I'd put on the box would be "an intriguing, imaginative work of art" and "controls better than Superman 64"
I'm probably an hour or two away from the end at this point, and the two quotes I'd put on the box would be "an intriguing, imaginative work of art" and "controls better than Superman 64"
mcz117chief
Member
Yeah, I enjoyed the first parts of the game immensely but the more "control" I was given the more the game fell apart. I really enjoyed just helping Trico move forward by removing obstacles for him but now that I have to move him around and give him commands the game became exceptionally frustrating.
But after every combat? It totally loses it's impact and just feels like a check list: enter new arena -> destroy dudes -> climb Trico -> pet Trico -> repeat. Like I said it was a cool idea for the first time but why every time? Why do you think it was a good decision to make the player do the same thing after every combat?
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
The battle is real. Fighting the camera, fighting the controls, fighting the mechanics, fighting the animations and fighting Trico. I'm not a happy camper at the moment ...
nelsonroyale
Member
Fair enough. You don't think it works, not everyone seems to think that way.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
I get why it's there , but I think it could have been gone by the end. It would of been a nice moment for him just to see you and stop.
It has to be there though , to stop you going "yo trico fuck these guys up "all the time.
mcz117chief
Member
Yeah it doesn't work, I doubt I would find a single person who said he experienced smooth sailing the whole game through. Trico gets stuck in corners, keeps spinning in place, tries to grab a barrel 50 times without success needing me to move it a meter to the side, seeing a clear solution but Trico just won't respond to command making you feel like you are doing it wrong looking for anything else but later finding out that your first solution actually was right but the game was just taking a piss, etc. I really doubt there is a single person on the planet who didn't experience a single one of these problems and I'm just a few hours in. The first two hours are excellent, Trico plays himself most of the time and it works but when you gain control of him it just doesn't work.
I think it's completely pointless and makes no sense actually, Trico should be growing and learning as he goes through the story not behave the same throughout the whole game. It's like if in Doom 4 after clearing out a room you would need to mop up the floor before proceeding.
Randy Solo
Member
I do think that there is a masterpiece in here somewhere.. but some of the design decisions are baffling. Why is there only 2 states for movement? Either Tippy-toe or balls out sprint? The spaces that the player has to traverse require a fast walk or jog in my opinion. I'd also like to have seen a few different commands for Trico while the player is on the ground, and not just while riding Trico. Calling Trico is nice, but why not a command that gets Trico to grab the player and toss him straight onto the beasts head? Little touches like this would alleviate some of the small frustrations. And I think it's the small frustrations that build up and snowball over time for some players.
I actually much prefer the component of the game where you can issue commands to Trico.
If Trico was perfectly responsive like Yorda, I would be pretty profoundly dissapointed in this game. I think trying to get Trico to respond is what makes this game interesting, its what makes it a character and not just a car or something.
That said I haven't experienced some of the more bug-like things people have been experiencing. Like I've rarely had Trico freeze in place, it always seems to be animating. And when I give it a command that doesn't work I'll usually get some kind of response, you usually get at least the 'confused-dog-head-tilt'.
The game is pretty brilliant and I can't stop thinking about how amazing Trico is, but yeah.
The camera actually makes me feel sick ocasionally. Camera is on the level of an early 3D N64 game from time to time. Really would love to see a patch with better camera movement!
Cave Johnson
Member
Yes, it is. But I find this game the most fun I've had in both the PS3 and PS4 generations. Because I knew exactly what Ueda intends deliver and he has hit every single note. By definition, I wouldn't call this a "game". There's is no win state - only a logical story progression. All of the levels are designed organically with the theme and narrative. The mechanics of the game doesn't dissonate with the interactivity and is the main source point of storytelling with the cutscenes being an extended exposition showcase. Every other game does the opposite which is why I wanted to play this more than any other title. And boy I am glad I did.
It's undeniable that the game is frustrating at times, but I also think that the premise of the game basically guaranteed it from the start. It's unrealistic to expect everything to go smoothly all of the time. The game definitely has issues but at the same time I think some people have their expectations too high in terms of responsiveness and never being stuck.
The more I play, the more I fall in love with this game.
Someone has to clean that blood, though
Someone has to clean that blood, though
mcz117chief
Member
I don't have problem with input lag or framerate issues themselves, one of my favourite games is Prince of Persia, but the low framerate WITH the input lag makes the game a real chore to play most of the time. Bad framerate by itself is not a problem, I played Drakengard 3 recently and I enjoyed the game immensely despite the framerate sometimes going below 10 fps because the controls are still responsive even when the framerate tanks close to 0. Then you have Prince of Persia who has seconds worth of input lag for certain actions but the framerate is always good so, again, it works, but not if both the framerate and the input lag are there.
B-B-Bomba!
Member
I have a stuckness, can anyone help? (edit - solved)
I'm early on. According to this guide page, I'm at
Where I'm stuck is:
I ran around for a long time looking for things to interact with before getting frustrated and looking up the guide. Is the game forked or, more likely, has the guide missed a step?
Wait, did the obvious thing and looked at another guide. I'm supposed to
I'm early on. According to this guide page, I'm at
"Forest, Stained Glass, Magical Cage, Fighting Trico & Suits of Armor."
Where I'm stuck is:
At the magical cage. The guide says Trico jumps down and attacks me, but he's staying at the ledge above, looking down and growling.
I ran around for a long time looking for things to interact with before getting frustrated and looking up the guide. Is the game forked or, more likely, has the guide missed a step?
Wait, did the obvious thing and looked at another guide. I'm supposed to
call him down?! Why in the CUNTING shit-fuck would I call him down?? I looked all over for a way of overcoming the obstacle that was preventing him from wanting to. I'm having such a hard time loving you, game ...
mcz117chief
Member
Rofl, I was stuck there for a while but I must say, that is one of the most hilariously insane insults I have heard
Cave Johnson
Member
Why not? I thought that would be the most obvious action. Considering the cicrumstances, you are essentially Trico's buffer though any kind of obstacle.
Calling him would be logical since you are the one aspect Trico recognizes
Rofl, I was stuck there for a while but I must say, that is one of the most hilariously insane insults I have heard
I read that as your avatar - and a compliment to an insult coming from Kainé is really high praise ;D
Human Trashcan
Banned
You gotta have patience. It's like a real animal, it's not always gonna do what you want it to immediately. I think it was an immensely bold choice to make Trico behave as lifelike as they did. It can be frustrating on occasion, but if you've ever owned a pet, that's life. The end result though, is that he feels alive, and not like an AI robot who just does what he needs to as efficiently as possible. Also, there is definitely a trick to interacting with Trico and giving him commands, and learning how he responds best. Try stuff out. It's best not to spam commands. I had some rough spots when I first got to option to command him, but the second half of the game I rarely had issues. I think Trico's a marvelous creation. The boy's controls gave me more frustration than interacting with Trico, honestly, but again, I think a lot of it is character. His animations are so important.
Cave Johnson
Member
Exactly, this is the crux for the contention where most of the argument is split. I'm glad someone out there is balsy enough to design a character like this. There probably won't be one in the foreseeable future from the way things look.
mcz117chief
Member
Yeah, it's right up there with shit-hog
I think you are just making an excuse for a weak AI. I don't believe the fact that Trico behaves erratically is on purpose, but if it is, then wow, making such a broken AI on purpose is real feat and I'm dead serious.
Jonneh3003
Banned
I've just got passed the part where
, any indication how much more there is to go? I'm loving everything so far, it is a struggle at times but its simply been magical.
Trico flys a little bit
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Just riding Trico and seeing him traversing the areas, is such a joy.
UnluckyKate
Member
I'm having real struggle with gameplay.
Boy is hard to control.
Trico is a PAIN to handle. It's long and boring to climb him all the time and very random to get to his head and have to make jumps waiting for him to put his head in the right place and height.
not even talking about giving him orders for position
Boy is hard to control.
Trico is a PAIN to handle. It's long and boring to climb him all the time and very random to get to his head and have to make jumps waiting for him to put his head in the right place and height.
not even talking about giving him orders for position
Actually it is s. Fumito Ueda said back in 2009(or 2011?) that Trico was designed like that and that he sometimes will listen and sometimes won't
You can hate on it all you want, but it was intentional and set on stone since forever.
I will look for the source and hopefully i will find it
B-B-Bomba!
Member
Yeah, sigh ... The game kinda forces you to consider all your available options for action. I like bold design, I like that the beast isn't a robot at your command and so forth. But the game wants to occupy a quite unique position, both having its cake and eating it so to speak. On the one hand you're being invited to connect with it on a human level, treating Trico as a living, breathing creature. And I very much love and enjoy that; I'm delighted we have a game built around it. On the other hand, the game wants to operate as a game, with specific results only coming from specific actions. Which is right and necessary, but creates issues when the player's 'living, breathing' approach to the game doesn't offer up the required input to create progress.
It might be fairly unique to me, IDK. But I had no notion at all of
forcing Trico to go somewhere he was clearly unhappy about
Jonneh3003
Banned
I love it, when I do tricks with my dog I have to say "paw" multiple times before he'll do it. Animal AI would be strange if they listened to everything you said immediately.
mcz117chief
Member
I can but I don't, I'm not hating on the idea, I'm hating on the execution. This is a puzzle game, if the game prevents you from executing the solution just because "Trico is supposed to be an ass" then it's bad game design plain and simple. Like I said thought, it is pretty amazing to make such a dysfunctional AI on purpose.
Cave Johnson
Member
Yeah, it's right up there with shit-hog
I think you are just making an excuse for a weak AI. I don't believe the fact that Trico behaves erratically is on purpose, but if it is, then wow, making such a broken AI on purpose is real feat and I'm dead serious.
What exactly about Trico's AI is broken? I just finished the game 3 nights straight and I have yet to encounter a situation of such kind. I event got the trophy for completing it under 15 hours which would mean, despite taking my time exploring, I was well under the expected time completion rate. Trico behavior may not be instant but that doesn't make it broken. Every single obstacle can be cleared within the the first 1 or 2 minutes if you know what you're doing, which, I can presume from your comment, you don't.
Coolbgdog12
Member
Trico isn't broken.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
You're totally missing the whole point. It's not bad design. It's the core of the entire concept, it's clearly just not for you, but it's far from bad design.
mcz117chief
Member
Resorting to personal insults now are we? Congrats on beating the game under 15 hours. You are acting like I am the only one who has a problem with the game or that I am too stupid to enjoy it for what it is. Of course every obstacle can be cleared quickly if you can see the solution but that is what I said already, I knew the solution but the game prevented me from executing it making me believe it actually wasn't the solution and only after running around for 10 minutes did the game tell me what I was supposed to do which was what I was trying to do at the beginning. That's the problem.
So you are saying that a puzzle game which won't always let you execute the necessary actions to solve it's puzzles is a good game? Look, even in ICO Yorda wasn't always cooperating but at least you knew that you just had to move her a little bit or something because the solution was there, here you have to either keep trying to make Trico do what you want to do or look for a different solution but you are never sure which one it is.
that sounds like Surgeon Simulator..
I'm not talking about input lag or frame rate, I'm talking about your interactions with Trico. It's a bit ridiculous to expect that a gigantic wild animal you just met will instantaneously listen to all your commands. Again, I don't think you completely understand the premise of the game. It's not simply a series of puzzles to complete.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that every area of the game was perfect but the idea of the AI not cooperating 24/7 isn't bad design if it's the whole point of the game. Trico isn't supposed to do exactly what you tell it on the spot because it's supposed to be thinking for itself. It's highly ambitious if anything.
mcz117chief
Member
But that game's whole idea was to make something easy obtusely difficult, just like QWOP. Both of these games are fun because the are making extremely basic things like grabbing or walking difficult for comical reasons. I doubt The Last Guardian was made with the idea to see how much Trico or the Boy can glitch out.
Isn't it? You just move from one area to another trying to progress by solving problems along the way. I think it really is just a puzzle game.
I think you would enjoy Daikatana and Amy then
You see, if you have a game where you need your AI companion to work with you but he doesn't just because "he is designed not to be cooperative" then it sucks. If you have a game where you AI companion is not always necessary and can sometimes tell you to piss off then you can make a good game out of it, a good example of this would be Binary Domain.
Zombie James
Banned
Only about an hour and a half in and I'm completely in love with the game. Trico feels like a real animal to me. That's what good AI should be: something believable, not something robotic. This is some great AI and animation working perfectly together to create something special.
The camera in this is so fucking frustrating it's distracting to an otherwise excellent experience. I can't believe something as easy as an option to disable the auto camera and making it more responsive wasn't done.
Other than that I'm loving this, it's nice to play a game where I get stuck.
Other than that I'm loving this, it's nice to play a game where I get stuck.
I'm a huge fan of Team Ico and Ueda but TLG needed a lot more of developing time. It is one of these rare games that you love the gameworld and you want to lose yourself in it, but having to constantly fight technical issues makes the whole experience frustrating and not fun.
I play it in my original ps4, I am 3-4 hours in, and most of the complaints I have are also mentioned in other posts. Bad framerate, screen tearing, bad camera, clipping, bad controls, broken AI are unacceptable in a AAA first party game of this significance, especially in this time and age.
The game has moments that everything works as it should, and at these moments it shines and becames GOTY material, and has moments (most of the time unfortunately) that is feels completely broken.
The biggest issue, that I believe affects a lot of the AI behavior of Trico as well, is that the game engine does not register properly control input or player position (or both).
For example you press a button ten times to pick up a food barrel and the game engine does not register this action. You have to move away from the barrel and came into the object again from a slightly different angle for the game engine to understand what you trying to do and register the action.
I feel it is the same with the Trico AI when you try to issue commands to the creature. Some time the game engine registers the command and Trico responds by doing what is supposed to do, but most of the time Trico ignores you (I had an area that it took me ten minutes to make Trico climb an obstacle and by restarting the check point he did it in seconds) not because its AI routine decides to ignore you, but because the engine does not register the command.
I cannot decide what to make of the game, overall I feel a bit disappointed because it could be the game of its generation, and I am seriously thinking of stop playing and wait for a future patch.
Without any spoilers, can anyone describe how the game behaves technically in its later phases on original PS4?
To the game reviewers out there that gave very high scores for TLG, I wonder how on earth will you judge the next AAA game that comes along and has all of these tech issues?
The most important part of a game is its technical design and how the design empowers the player to interact with the game world.
This should be a major factor when scoring a game and should apply to all games, no matter your emotional attachment with a studio or a designer.
To Sony I have to say a huge thanks for investing in these types of games, but please please please improve your quality assurance processes! I will not support another first party game that releases in such a state!
I play it in my original ps4, I am 3-4 hours in, and most of the complaints I have are also mentioned in other posts. Bad framerate, screen tearing, bad camera, clipping, bad controls, broken AI are unacceptable in a AAA first party game of this significance, especially in this time and age.
The game has moments that everything works as it should, and at these moments it shines and becames GOTY material, and has moments (most of the time unfortunately) that is feels completely broken.
The biggest issue, that I believe affects a lot of the AI behavior of Trico as well, is that the game engine does not register properly control input or player position (or both).
For example you press a button ten times to pick up a food barrel and the game engine does not register this action. You have to move away from the barrel and came into the object again from a slightly different angle for the game engine to understand what you trying to do and register the action.
I feel it is the same with the Trico AI when you try to issue commands to the creature. Some time the game engine registers the command and Trico responds by doing what is supposed to do, but most of the time Trico ignores you (I had an area that it took me ten minutes to make Trico climb an obstacle and by restarting the check point he did it in seconds) not because its AI routine decides to ignore you, but because the engine does not register the command.
I cannot decide what to make of the game, overall I feel a bit disappointed because it could be the game of its generation, and I am seriously thinking of stop playing and wait for a future patch.
Without any spoilers, can anyone describe how the game behaves technically in its later phases on original PS4?
To the game reviewers out there that gave very high scores for TLG, I wonder how on earth will you judge the next AAA game that comes along and has all of these tech issues?
The most important part of a game is its technical design and how the design empowers the player to interact with the game world.
This should be a major factor when scoring a game and should apply to all games, no matter your emotional attachment with a studio or a designer.
To Sony I have to say a huge thanks for investing in these types of games, but please please please improve your quality assurance processes! I will not support another first party game that releases in such a state!
I'm honestly not sure what to say to some people. Trico does everything you tell it with a delay, something like 10 to 15 seconds but it can take longer if Trico needs to get into position. Even a simple jump command will have Trico readying itself, getting into position and usually let out a call before making the leap. Its by no means immediate or even prompt but again, its supposed to be an independent and slightly stubborn creature. The most annoying time I had with Trico was when I was trying to solve a puzzle incorrectly and thought it was Trico having issues and when he was playing with a chain. The chain part I didn't even mind as it was the cutest damn thing I'd seen in the game yet.
I haven't beaten the game yet but seriously, I've had no issues getting Trico to do what I want, go where I want, smash the armored enemies or what have you. This is all taking into account the aforementioned delay in responses from Trico but even still I find it a breeze. Once again. Do not spam commands to Trico it will either confuse it or it will just sit there looking nonplussed. A single command and wait. Even pointing in what direction you want shouldn't be spammed.
Other than that I'm not sure what else to say to some folks who have serious trouble. Perhaps uninstall and reinstall the game and make sure you have the 1.02 patch for the game installed as apparently that alleviates some issues.
I haven't beaten the game yet but seriously, I've had no issues getting Trico to do what I want, go where I want, smash the armored enemies or what have you. This is all taking into account the aforementioned delay in responses from Trico but even still I find it a breeze. Once again. Do not spam commands to Trico it will either confuse it or it will just sit there looking nonplussed. A single command and wait. Even pointing in what direction you want shouldn't be spammed.
Other than that I'm not sure what else to say to some folks who have serious trouble. Perhaps uninstall and reinstall the game and make sure you have the 1.02 patch for the game installed as apparently that alleviates some issues.
For buttons, I've learned, it's better to leave them pressed than pressing numerous time, much more responsive. (if you leave O pressed, the child will go by itself pick up and get it as long as you keep it pressed. If you leave X pressed, he'll let go for a longer time and then you release to regrab again)