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[Theonik]

What is it with this nationalist movement these days? And how does it interchange US and UK nationalism so easily?

It is because as much as the UK likes to deny it, both really are cut from the same cloth. There is a lot 'lalala can't hear you' going on when the UK starts looking at the failings of its ways. It's like staring at a mirror but refusing to acknowledge you look absolutely plastered.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

fucking UKIP is heralded where I have to live these days

My mother, being as edgy as she likes to be, would vote for Trump even though "the only problem is that he doesn't like black people"

...

she's black

~~

What is it with this nationalist movement these days? And how does it interchange US and UK nationalism so easily?

Well the common cultural connection is one aspect, as well as overlapping news media and awareness. Ie, Murdoch has his hands in pies on both sides of the Atlantic, while anything going on in the States in general tends to get picked up here. Both also have a particular brand of presumed exceptionalism from having been a global superpower, which lends itself to the presumption that the nation is great because its that nation, rather than because of what it actually stands for and does.

Yet I would also say each country has a sort of... cultural image of the working class as the true face of the nation, which the likes of Trump and Farage have particularly picked up on in different ways. Trump has tried to appeal to it through lack of sophistication and 'telling it like it is', and regularly positioning himself as speaking on the behalf of 'ordinary people'. Farage meanwhile has cultivated the image of being a bloke you could have a pint with down at the pub, and an off the cuff wit (or 'wit') which seems more at home among the average citizen than usual politician speak. So to their supporters, they feel like one of 'them', where all too often its very, very obvious that politicians tend to have a whole different social clique from the common citizen.

 

[Bleepey]

fucking UKIP is heralded where I have to live these days

My mother, being as edgy as she likes to be, would vote for Trump even though "the only problem is that he doesn't like black people"

...

she's black

~~

What is it with this nationalist movement these days? And how does it interchange US and UK nationalism so easily?

"He tells it like it is".

Oy vey.

 

[Elaugaufein]

fucking UKIP is heralded where I have to live these days

My mother, being as edgy as she likes to be, would vote for Trump even though "the only problem is that he doesn't like black people"

...

she's black

~~

What is it with this nationalist movement these days? And how does it interchange US and UK nationalism so easily?

I suspect it transfers so easily because it's not really about the nation, its about social and cultural homogeneity, so the precise details (points where the US/UK differ) don't matter, what does is forcing the feared 'other' to fit in or be driven out. It's also why White supremecists and certain stripes of Christianity slot in so well despite inherently being supranational positions, they may connect across nations, but they reinforce the shared cultural homogeneity.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Some of the practical matters are starting to be sorted out, among them, the land border on Ireland.

The Fine Gael-led coalition government in Dublin has confirmed it is in negotiations with London to better share intelligence to tighten immigration controls for people from outside Britain and Ireland.

Ireland’s foreign minister, Charles Flanagan, said he welcomed Brokenshire’s commitment to an invisible north-south border and agreed on the importance of an intelligence-led approach to curbing illegal immigration across the Irish border.

Flanagan said: “In terms of the threat of illegal immigration through the border, the sharing of information is vital, as is the sharing of systems and the use of digital technology. These are means by which we can ensure that any adverse impact is minimised. The object of our engagement is to maintain the common travel area.”

“I caution that this will be a decision not just by the UK or Irish governments but ultimately also by the 27 EU states. I have been impressing on my fellow 26 EU foreign ministerial colleagues the importance of maintaining what is now an invisible border. I have to say there was among them a deep understanding of the consequences for the peace process of the reimposition of a heavily fortified border,” he added.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/09/britain-to-push-post-brexit-uk-immigration-controls-back-to-irish-border

This is the obvious solution, but how will trade work?

 

[nickcv]

Some of the practical matters are starting to be sorted out, among them, the land border on Ireland.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/09/britain-to-push-post-brexit-uk-immigration-controls-back-to-irish-border

This is the obvious solution, but how will trade work?

Maybe people will be stopped if they are driving big cars that might be transporting goods?


They could also use cameras that record plate numbers to track suspicious back and forth

 

[KonradLaw]

I don;t think this has been posted yet.

Lol..Telegraph
The City traders betting against the pound are ignorant teenagers without the foggiest idea what Brexit means.

The ammount of denial in this article is delicious

 

[CyclopsRock]

It's more that the property market is not just the property market, but linked into a few other markets as well intrinsically. It's still supply and demand, but it's more complex than one supply + demand relationship:

House supply increases -> Lenders relax Mortgage conditions because risk can now be hedged over multiple properties.

More mortgages availiable -> more buyers in the market

More buyers in the market -> More demand for housing

More demand for housing -> House prices maintain or increase.

Anti-intellectualism is a bad look.



It's not that simple.

I don't think it's *quite* that simple though. It's hard to glean much from that short article, but there's clearly some short term issues going on in that cycle. The whole point of building more houses is that you have more buyers in the market. The fact this causes house prices to jump is evidence of a huge backlog of pent-up demand from people who want to buy but can't buy now. There's only one solution to that, and that's to build more houses. In a hypothetical scenario where building rates rocket and we see demand and supply reach a sort of equilibrium, this obviously would cease to be the case. This doesn't need to happen on a national scale to be useful though, as local demand can be met regardless of what's happening elsewhere.

The real question is how to incentivise builders to do this when it's in their own best interest to have prices inflate every time they build.

 

[kmag]

Some of the practical matters are starting to be sorted out, among them, the land border on Ireland.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/09/britain-to-push-post-brexit-uk-immigration-controls-back-to-irish-border

This is the obvious solution, but how will trade work?

That does nothing to resolve the border issue in Ireland. At best it 'resolves' non-EU immigration, not-EU migrants nor the required customs border.

 

[Maledict]

Have to day my favorite bit of Brexit farce recently was Jacob Rees-Mogg saying that anti-Brexit people were elitist snobs.

One of the most out of touch, inhuman, aristocratic MPS we have had in decades accusing others of being elitist. This is a man who on his first campaign went canvassing with his *nanny*. You couldn't make it up.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Have to day my favorite bit of Brexit farce recently was Jacob Rees-Mogg saying that anti-Brexit people were elitist snobs.

One of the most out of touch, inhuman, aristocratic MPS we have had in decades accusing others of being elitist. This is a man who on his first campaign went canvassing with his *nanny*. You couldn't make it up.

He's kind of right, though. There's a lot of elitism amongst Remainers. That it took possibly the most elitist man on the planet to point this out is what makes it so wounding.

 

[Maledict]

He's kind of right, though. There's a lot of elitism amongst Remainers. That it took possibly the most elitist man on the planet to point this out is what makes it so wounding.

There's a lot of elitism amongst leavers then as well. Sorry but proclaiming that the people who voted to leave were brave souls leading a quiet revolution and shaming those who disagree with the results (before then pretending it was a 100% vote in favor of leaving) is hardly embracing all people is it? There's an incredibly strong, patronizing attitude amongst leave politicians right now that is absolutely looking down on anyone still in favor of remain.

 

[Izuna]

I don;t think this has been posted yet.

Lol..Telegraph
The City traders betting against the pound are ignorant teenagers without the foggiest idea what Brexit means.

The ammount of denial in this article is delicious

Salty as fuck. We all salty.

 

[Audioboxer]

Mhairi Black is getting shredded online for this article

IN my year and a half of being a politician I can truly say that I have never been more horrified or afraid of the rhetoric coming from the Conservative Government as I have this past week. To read the headlines of the major British newspapers felt like I had awoken in some dystopian, V for Vendetta-esque society. The Conservative Party’s mask as ‘a party of the common people’ has slipped to reveal the xenophobic, often racist, nationalist, ugly face beneath. The very fact that they now openly share the same values and policies as Ukip says it all.

The Conservative Party’s conference has unleashed ugly and downright scary rhetoric that I was brought up to believe was to be left in the past. I am not exaggerating when I say that the policies being brought forward are reminiscent of early 1930s Nazi Germany.

Fascism creeps up on us, and what we have seen this week can only be described, and must be described as the first steps of that.

We have seen people proudly professing, “British jobs for British people”. I have no problem with governments providing jobs for their citizens, in fact, I spend most of my days actively encouraging and fighting for it – but that is they key difference. Government should be providing jobs for people IN Britain, not simply ‘British’ people.

If there is one piece of hope that can be taken from the events of this week, is the number of people who are speaking out. The number of people who are calling out these politicians on their hypocrisy and we must continue to do so.

When Ruth Davidson claims that the Yes Movement tries to, “rile English [people] to win independence”, let us proudly refute it. When Theresa May labels us as, “divisive”, let us remind her that we are not the ones who want to segregate workers.

I am proud that Scotland has sent a clear message that all are welcome here. I am proud that so many Scottish businesses have outrightly said they will refuse to provide any form of lists of foreign employees, and I am proud that the Scottish government will give them our full support in doing so.

So let me finish with a poem by Martin Niemoller:

First they came for the Jews.

But I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists.

But I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists.

But I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics.

But I did not speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me.

And by that time there was no one left to speak out for me.

We are entering incredibly scary times and we are taking the first step to slide down that very slippery slope, when history has taught us exactly where this leads. We are better than this. Scotland is better than this. Let us speak out.

More @ http://www.thenational.scot/comment...-out-against-the-tories-ugly-xenophobia.23314

If you want to read some quality leave voter rhetoric read the comments section on this article - http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/71...tan-Twitter-Mhairi-Black-Tory-Nazi-comparison

 

[ghostjoke]

Farage has been out in the US defending Trump today.

Never been more ashamed to live in the same country as someone. What an utterly vile cunt.

Is fucking up one nation not enough for him?

 

[Tuffty]

Farage has been out in the US defending Trump today.

Never been more ashamed to live in the same country as someone. What an utterly vile cunt.

Let's put it this way. He bemoaned EU politicians as a foreign entity looking to have some kind of influence on national politics by telling people how to vote. And now here he is being Trump's cheerleader, speaking at his rallies praising him, telling people to go out and vote for him.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Fuck him.

 

[FlammableD]

I don;t think this has been posted yet.

Lol..Telegraph
The City traders betting against the pound are ignorant teenagers without the foggiest idea what Brexit means.

The ammount of denial in this article is delicious

"The Bolshevik, Jew-baiting, IRA-supporting extremism that comes with Jeremy Corbyn and his sinister sidekick John McDonnell"

 

[jelly]

I wish people would see Farage for what he is. I've heard too many people praise him for standing up and sticking it to whoever it may be like the EU but they don't want to take in the horrible stuff he actually spouts and you always get the excuse, at least he says it. He is just an opportunist preying on the ill informed, hateful people to line his own pockets. Same with May, oh she talks with authority, don't mess with our forces, yeah! It's such low level bollocks. Any horrible person could stand up and show some steel, doesn't mean what they're saying is worth anything or a good idea.

 

[theaface]

Cross posting from the Labour thread.

Guardian/ICM poll gives Tories 17-point post-conference lead

Political parties normally expect a modest post-conference bounce in the polls (because, if they are half-competent at PR, they can generally create a large quantity of mostly favourable media coverage) but the Conservatives will be delighted with the latest findings from the regular Guardian/ICM poll. It gives them a 17-point lead.

Here are the new figures, and how they compare to the previous Guardian/ICM polling figures from early September, before the conference season started.

Conservatives: 43% (up 2)

Labour: 26% (down 2)

Ukip: 11% (down 2)

Lib Dems: 8% (down 1)

Greens: 6% (up 2)

The fieldwork was carried out from Friday to Sunday.

The 17-point lead is the joint second highest ever recorded for the Conservatives by ICM in its polling series going back to 1992. They only once got a higher lead (20 points in June 2008, when Gordon Brown was at his most unpopular) although in September and October 2009 they also had a 17-point lead in ICM polls. But Labour did have larger polling leads at various points in the Blair era.

At 26%, the Labour figure is only one point higher than their lowest rating in ICM polling - the 25% they hit in June 2008 and August 2009.

Source


The Tories spend a week spouting disgusting, myopic, xenophobic bullshit and they end up more popular than before. At this point, I see Corbyn every bit as culpable for this mess as Cameron, Johnson, May, and Farage.

Truly the darkest timeline.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Cross posting from the Labour thread.



Source


The Tories spend a week spouting disgusting, myopic, xenophobic bullshit and they end up more popular than before. At this point, I see Corbyn every bit as culpable for this mess as Cameron, Johnson, May, and Farage.

Truly the darkest timeline.

I'm beginning to wonder: will Corbyn even resign when he gets smashed at the next general election? Would the membership even force him out?

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm beginning to wonder: will Corbyn even resign when he gets smashed at the next general election? Would the membership even force him out?

No

 

[Maledict]

Big difference being Labour didn't want him to resign if I remember correctly. Was the same with Hague in 2001 I think - he didn't want to stay, but the MPs and base would have been happy for him to go.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

No MPs' vote on Brexit terms, says May

Wonder if Parliament actually will try to pass an Act in response to this.

 

[Vagabundo]

That does nothing to resolve the border issue in Ireland. At best it 'resolves' non-EU immigration, not-EU migrants nor the required customs border.

It doesn't stop anyone. If they get into Ireland anyone can trivally pass the border. Even with stict border controls there is nothing to stop them jumping a fence and running through a field. If it is not policed - and there is no way they are going to police it. Even if it is are they going to stop everybody on a bicycle.

People really don't get how porous the border is; its just a line on a map. It runs through peoples farms, houses, etc. The border counties are nations on to themselves in someways. Sometimes the only way you'll know you've crossed is that the speed signs changce from km/h to miles/h.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Big difference being Labour didn't want him to resign if I remember correctly. Was the same with Hague in 2001 I think - he didn't want to stay, but the MPs and base would have been happy for him to go.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Ed Miliband's clique had persuaded him to stay on after 2015, instead of him being pushed by Creagh and co.

 

[kmag]

It doesn't stop anyone. If they get into Ireland anyone can trivally pass the border. Even with stict border controls there is nothing to stop them jumping a fence and running through a field. If it is not policed - and there is no way they are going to police it. Even if it is are they going to stop everybody on a bicycle.

People really don't get how porous the border is; its just a line on a map. It runs through peoples farms, houses, etc. The border counties are nations on to themselves in someways. Sometimes the only way you'll know you've crossed is that the speed signs changce from km/h to miles/h.

Ultimately there's going to have to some form of border control and potentially internal customs control in Northern Ireland at the airports and ferry points. And some Swedish/Norwegian style custom checkpoints at the NI/ROI border (basically spot checks)

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Ultimately there's going to have to some form of border control and potentially internal customs control in Northern Ireland at the airports and ferry points. And some Swedish/Norwegian style custom checkpoints at the NI/ROI border (basically spot checks)

I'm no expert, but I poked around on Google streetview at the Sweden / Norway border and it looks like there's nothing there. So that would probably be fine.

 

[Jackpot]

£1 GBP now gets you less than €1 at UK airports on average.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37609114

Less than one euro to the pound at many UK airports

Many travellers buying foreign currency at the UK's airports are now receiving less than one euro to the pound.

The continued fall in sterling's value means that the average rate available at 17 airport bureaux de change is now just 99 euro cents to the pound.

The worst rate is currently 88 euro cents at Moneycorp at Southampton airport and the best is €1.06 from the Change Group at Glasgow Prestwick.

Since the UK's Brexit vote in June, the pound has fallen sharply in value.

The average US dollar rate at the airports is down to $1.08 to the pound.

Not the same as exchange rates though, as airport bureaux de change have the worst rates due to captive audience - the equivalent of buying food at a cinema.

 

[Xun]

£1 GBP now gets you less than €1 at UK airports on average.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37609114



Not the same as exchange rates though, as airport bureaux de change have the worst rates due to captive audience - the equivalent of buying food at a cinema.

Depressing.

At least the new fiver is cool though, I guess…

Edit: The comments on Facebook sure are something (as with any article relating to Brexit).

https://www.facebook.com/bbcnews/posts/10153990126207217?comment_tracking={"tn":"O"}

In reply to a Brazilian:

Well someone's just asking to be shot in the head on the tube, isn't he?

 

[Dougald]

£1 GBP now gets you less than €1 at UK airports on average.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37609114



Not the same as exchange rates though, as airport bureaux de change have the worst rates due to captive audience - the equivalent of buying food at a cinema.

Back to financial crisis levels then?

insert stock Daily Mail "what's wrong with a holiday in England?" comment here

 

[Bo-Locks]

Hypothetically speaking, what happens if the Supreme Court decides that Parliament has to have its say in declaring article 50, but the government does it anyway without having a vote? Or what if the government declares article 50 and then the Supreme Court rules that Parliament should decide.

Not that I think this will happen, but constitutionally and legally what would happen and how would the other EU states handle this?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Hypothetically speaking, what happens if the Supreme Court decides that Parliament has to have its say in declaring article 50, but the government does it anyway without having a vote? Or what if the government declares article 50 and then the Supreme Court rules that Parliament should decide.

Not that I think this will happen, but constitutionally and legally what would happen and how would the other EU states handle this?

Article 50 requires a valid constitutional submission. If May unilaterally declared Article 50 and the Supreme Court overturned it as invalid without a parliamentary vote, then Article 50 hasn't been triggered. So I think it would just cancel whatever had happened so far, and add even further to the farce.

 

[Joe]

Sorry if this has been talked about a lot already but...

Is EU-exit sentiment polling higher, lower, or the same in France, Germany, and other EU countries since Brexit?

 

[Jisgsaw]

Article 50 requires a valid constitutional submission. If May unilaterally declared Article 50 and the Supreme Court overturned it as invalid without a parliamentary vote, then Article 50 hasn't been triggered. So I think it would just cancel whatever had happened so far, and add even further to the farce.

So this mean this will happen, right? Seems to be how it always goes with Brexit related news...

Sorry if this has been talked about a lot already but...

Is EU-exit sentiment polling higher, lower, or the same in France, Germany, and other EU countries since Brexit?

I haven't heard of any new polls since those of July, which showed exit sentiment receding by around 10% iirc in most countries.

 

[Volotaire]

I don;t think this has been posted yet.

Lol..Telegraph
The City traders betting against the pound are ignorant teenagers without the foggiest idea what Brexit means.

The ammount of denial in this article is delicious

It highlights the gulf in the quality of financial journalism between the FT and the other broadsheets.

I like the Labour 'how long has the shadow cabinet lasted' ticker. Neat feature haha.

 

[Alx]

Sorry if this has been talked about a lot already but...

Is EU-exit sentiment polling higher, lower, or the same in France, Germany, and other EU countries since Brexit?

In France, no politician is talking about the Brexit or Europe actually. It's all about unemployment, terror attacks or migration issues. The Calais jungle may be the closest issue to UK problems, but right now it's more about relocating migrants in France after the jungle is dismantled, rather than discuss the Touquet agreements.

 

[chadskin]

Hard Brexit could cost £66bn a year
Leaked Treasury papers reveal lost revenue

Cabinet ministers are being warned that the Treasury could lose up to £66 billion a year in tax revenues under a “hard Brexit”, according to leaked government papers.

GDP could fall by as much as 9.5 per cent if Britain leaves the single market and has to rely on World Trade Organisation rules for trading with the continent, compared with if it stayed within the EU, the forecasts show. Such a steep drop in revenue would force ministers to slash public spending or raise taxes.

 

[Faddy]

I'm no expert, but I poked around on Google streetview at the Sweden / Norway border and it looks like there's nothing there. So that would probably be fine.

Norway and Sweden are both in the single market.

The UK could leave the EU and remain in the single market but we would have to allow those pesky European foreigners to stay and take all the jobs, houses and shops.

 

[Bleepey]

Hard Brexit could cost £66bn a year
Leaked Treasury papers reveal lost revenue

I know some people who would think this is a price worth paying. Yes they did vote for UKIP.

 

[Dougald]

Hard Brexit could cost £66bn a year
Leaked Treasury papers reveal lost revenue

Ha, so in other words, more than twice the bullshit £350m a week figure

What a "surprise"

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Norway and Sweden are both in the single market.

The UK could leave the EU and remain in the single market but we would have to allow those pesky European foreigners to stay and take all the jobs, houses and shops.

Norway is a "participant with exceptions". Isn't that basically what we're going for?

 

[Walshicus]

Norway is a "participant with exceptions". Isn't that basically what we're going for?

Is it?

 

[CyclopsRock]

Norway and Sweden are both in the single market.

The UK could leave the EU and remain in the single market but we would have to allow those pesky European foreigners to stay and take all the jobs, houses and shops.

The distinction between that and being in the EU is so small for most people that I just don't see many considering that an actual implementation of the referendum result.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Is it?

Uh, it might be? I don't think it's that clear at this point tbh

Edit:

The distinction between that and being in the EU is so small for most people that I just don't see many considering that an actual implementation of the referendum result.

No, following the "Norway model" exactly, I'd agree. But it really depends on what the "exceptions" are, doesn't it?

 

[Xando]

Hard Brexit could cost £66bn a year
Leaked Treasury papers reveal lost revenue

Will probably come out less but imagine losing 10% of your whole economy strength + tax rises and cuts to social benefits to combat falling tax revenue

That's some greece level of shit

 

[CyclopsRock]

Uh, it might be? I don't think it's that clear at this point tbh

Edit:



No, following the "Norway model" exactly, I'd agree. But it really depends on what the "exceptions" are, doesn't it?

I just can't imagine what exceptions would counteract open borders and adherence to EU regulations, which AFAIK are required for access to the free market.

 

[Volotaire]

EDIT: wrong report.

 

[oti]

Sorry if this has been talked about a lot already but...

Is EU-exit sentiment polling higher, lower, or the same in France, Germany, and other EU countries since Brexit?

The last German poll I saw was the week after Brexit and the EU had never been more popular. Even the far-right advocated for it, although they want Germany to ditch the Euro. (Funnily enough the party was formed by Economists and they more than anybody else would know that Germany benefits the most out of the single currency.)

 

[Xun]

Hard Brexit could cost £66bn a year
Leaked Treasury papers reveal lost revenue

TAKING BACK CONTROL!!!!!!!

WE DID IT GUYS, WE CAN KICK THE IMMIGRANTS OUT!!!!!!!!! WE'RE GREAT BRITAIN AFTER ALL!! NONE OF THAT BULLSHIT FROM BRUSSELS CAN STOP US NOW.

YESSSSSSSSSS!

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

 

[PJV3]

TAKING BACK CONTROL!!!!!!!

WE DID IT GUYS, WE CAN KICK THE IMMIGRANTS OUT!!!!!!!!! WE'RE GREAT BRITAIN AFTER ALL!! NONE OF THAT BULLSHIT FROM BRUSSELS CAN STOP US NOW.

YESSSSSSSSSS!

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

As long as we protect pensioners and the royal list it's all ok.