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[PJV3]

There will be no negotions until article 50 is finished with completely, once we've completely left.

It's too late by then.

After a year of negotiations there is no going back though. Now is the time to call out the brexit for what it is. A fucking awful idea.

Oh yeah, I keep going by the legal advice given to parliament that the state can back down.

I don't why I keep forgetting.

 

[TatteredHat]

We've been infected with US style libertarian bollocks.

Interesting considering that the UK has hate speech laws, unlike the US.

 

[CTLance]

Benevolent queen sacrificing herself and the monarchy on behalf of her country. I can already hear the bards tuning their lutes.

I have no clue how modern monarchy works, but can she abdicate, officially distance herself from her royal family somehow so that she becomes a normal citizen? Maybe become a nun?

I think if a "totally random old woman we found on the street somewhere with the name of Elisabeth (what a coincidence)" stands in front of the press and delivers a state of the union speech, then the Brits will listen to her.

That way, monarchy itself could persevere, and only she would have to throw herself under the bus, figuratively speaking. (With the understanding that the UK would have to spot her a nice little apartment and some pocket money, obviously. Would be a small price to pay.)

 

[QuicheFontaine]

There will be no negotions until article 50 is finished with completely, once we've completely left.

It's too late by then.

Can't we just be a "bad tenant"? I.e, not invoke Art. 50, but use our veto on everything until the EU plays ball?

 

[Jasup]

Ugh.

Incidentally that's what the Finland's minister of foreign affairs/Debuty PM said about his statements during his visit to Britain.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I have no clue how modern monarchy works, but can she abdicate, officially distance herself from her royal family somehow so that she becomes a normal citizen?

I think if a "totally random old woman we found on the street somewhere with the name of Elisabeth (what a coincidence)" stands in front of the press and delivers a state of the union speech, then the Brits will listen to her.

That way, monarchy itself could persevere, and only she would have to throw herself under the bus, figuratively speaking. (With the understanding that the UK would have to spot her a nice little apartment and some pocket money, obviously. Would be a small price to pay.)

We're getting really far-fetched now, guys. Still in the "bargaining" phase?

 

[Joni]

Countries cannot be kicked out of the Eurozone. That was one of the major problems with that crisis. There is also no article 50 equivalent for the Eurozone either. A country needs to leave the EU outright to leave the Euro but no sane state would leave the EU... Wait...

There is no clarity how it would have been done, but there were clear signs they had a path to kicking it out of the Eurozone. There is Plan Z.

 

[GamerMax73]

The Leave campaign won votes based on numerous lies and deceit. I see no reason why we should respect the result.

I respect democracy, but I think people deserve to make decisions based on facts and that didn't happen during the referendum.

I agree, but we need more information other than "they lied". If we had a proper exit proposal, some early outline agreements, etc, then we'd have something to go back to the country with and ask "are you sure" before pushing the big red button.

 

[CTLance]

We're getting really far-fetched now, guys. Still in the "bargaining" phase?

I'm a German. Just sitting at home watching Wales versus Belgium and trying to dream up a way for you guys to stop imploding. It's just such a surreal situation. I never expected a Monty python sketch to come alive.

 

[Theonik]

They wanna be careful, they might contravene the EU Working Time Directive.

I'm not sure how this would apply to emergency situations!

There is no clarity how it would have been done, but there were clear signs they had a path to kicking it out of the Eurozone. There is Plan Z.

Based on what actually happened I wouldn't interpret these as more than messaging from both sides. It's the same as how the EU was demanding article 50 was triggered this week and were 'threatening' to do it, when they clearly don't have the power to trigger it themselves.

e:

I'm a German. Just sitting at home watching Wales versus Belgium and trying to dream up a way for you guys to stop imploding. It's just such a surreal situation. I never expected a Monty python sketch to come alive.

Several Monty Python sketches.

 

[TatteredHat]

Can't we just be a "bad tenant"? I.e, not invoke Art. 50, but use our veto on everything until the EU plays ball?

I'm assuming the EU will then try to signify that behavior as an invocation of Art. 50, or something to that extent. They're likely already discussing the possibility of such a scenario playing out.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

I'll say it again

The fucked up notion of British Pride where we can't admit to the EU that this was all a mistake is forcing us to choke down this shit sandwich.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I'm assuming the EU will then try to signify that behavior as an invocation of Art. 50, or something to that extent. They're likely already discussing the possibility of such a scenario playing out.

They can discuss until they're blue in the face. Us using our veto isn't an invocation of Art. 50.

 

[GamerMax73]

There will be no negotions until article 50 is finished with completely, once we've completely left.

It's too late by then.

I'm sorry but this no negotiations bull shit is nothing more than posturing and pandering to the press.

Let's wait and see what happens once we've settled the PM question.

As much as I respect my EU neighbours, most of what I'm hearing from that side of the channel seems to be bad timed statements that are inflaming an already sensitive situation over here.

Europe - if you've got nothing sensible/helpful to say, how about keeping quiet until we come to you? I know you want to know what's going on as much as we (the UK people) do, but what your saying right now really isn't helping.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I asked this before, I don't know much about UK politics (as you might have guessed), but wouldn't Richard Branson be a good candidate for PM? It seems there is a similar sentiment to the US right now, and Branson seems to have the kind of favorables that would make him successful if he ran in the US (if he was American). Rich entrepreneur, pro-renewable energy, pro-EU, sort of the UK's Elon Musk to a certain extent. He just gives me the impression that he'd win a landslide against the ones currently lining up, but only if he had the backing of a party, which might be a problem in the UK for any outsider.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I asked this before, I don't know much about UK politics (as you might have guessed), but wouldn't Richard Branson be a good candidate for PM? It seems there is a similar sentiment to the US right now, and Branson seems to have the kind of favorables that would make him successful if he ran in the US (if he was American). He just gives me the impression that he'd win a landslide against the ones currently lining up, but only if he had the backing of a party, which might be a problem in the UK for any outsider.

The UK doesn't really do celebrity politicians like the US does. We tried it once with Robert Kilroy-silk and it didn't go over so well.

 

[Jezbollah]

I asked this before, I don't know much about UK politics (as you might have guessed), but wouldn't Richard Branson be a good candidate for PM? It seems there is a similar sentiment to the US right now, and Branson seems to have the kind of favorables that would make him successful if he ran in the US (if he was American). He just gives me the impression that he'd win a landslide against the ones currently lining up, but only if he had the backing of a party, which might be a problem in the UK for any outsider.

You would need to list Branson's political achievements and compare them to others to consider strength of candidacy for PM.

 

[JonathanEx]

The UK doesn't really do celebrity politicians like the US does. We tried it once with Robert Kilroy-silk and it didn't go over so well.

Well he had to decide whether to share... or to shaft.

 

[disco]

I asked this before, I don't know much about UK politics (as you might have guessed), but wouldn't Richard Branson be a good candidate for PM? It seems there is a similar sentiment to the US right now, and Branson seems to have the kind of favorables that would make him successful if he ran in the US (if he was American). Rich entrepreneur, pro-renewable energy, pro-EU, sort of the UK's Elon Musk to a certain extent. He just gives me the impression that he'd win a landslide against the ones currently lining up, but only if he had the backing of a party, which might be a problem in the UK for any outsider.

It's not the early 2000s. The dude is seen as a bit slimey Blair-like 'big business' in lots of people's eyes.

 

[GamerMax73]

I'm a German. Just sitting at home watching Wales versus Belgium and trying to dream up a way for you guys to stop imploding. It's just such a surreal situation. I never expected a Monty python sketch to come alive.

Ha, no one expects the British Referendum (Spanish Inquisition).

 

[Hasney]

The UK doesn't really do celebrity politicians like the US does. We tried it once with Robert Kilroy-silk and it didn't go over so well.

Well we have the star of Stab in the Dark Michael Gove too.

 

[Joni]

Based on what actually happened I wouldn't interpret these as more than messaging from both sides. It's the same as how the EU was demanding article 50 was triggered this week and were 'threatening' to do it, when they clearly don't have the power to trigger it themselves.

It looks very different compared to the current situation, as they had a team behind it. The secrecy involved means we can never be sure about the results but it certainly looks like they wanted to if they couldn't force Greece.
https://next.ft.com/content/0ac1306e-d508-11e3-9187-00144feabdc0

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Well he had to decide whether to share... or to shaft.

Can't not post the gif

 

[Ether_Snake]

You would need to list Branson's political achievements and compare them to others to consider strength of candidacy for PM.

Well I don't know, your current PM led a coup against his own government, and then announced he'd quit when it worked. Not sure where that ranks on the political achievements list, but it must be pretty damn low.

 

[TatteredHat]

They can discuss until they're blue in the face. Us using our veto isn't an invocation of Art. 50.

We'll see, I think it's unlikely that the UK would get away with drawing out an indefinite stalemate.

 

[CTLance]

I'm assuming the EU will then try to signify that behavior as an invocation of Art. 50, or something to that extent. They're likely already discussing the possibility of such a scenario playing out.

With elections coming up in France and Germany, you guys can expect to be bullied relentlessly if you just try to pretend nothing happened. The obnoxious islanders with their hunger for perpetual extrawursts will not be allowed to walk away from this unscathed. Not after kicking up this fuss. Juncker will relish putting on the thumb screws to whoever gets sent over to the mainland. Don't even think I'm joking about that. The madman would totally do it.

Plus, the banking sector is just waaaaaaaay too juicy. You guys slathered up in gravy, sat on our plate and waved an "eat me" sign for the last four decades or so. And now you've even provided a fork and knife. Spain, France and/or Germany will not be able to resists slicing off a chunk of flesh before you'll be able to wriggle away.

 

[GamerMax73]

Several Monty Python sketches.

Classic!

 

[QuicheFontaine]

We'll see, I think it's unlikely that the UK would get away with drawing out an indefinite stalemate.

Any suggestions on what will happen? If you want to kick us out I think you're going to have to re-write the rules of the club in a way that might make some other member states a bit nervous.

 

[Alx]

With elections coming up in France and Germany, you guys can expect to be bullied relentlessly if you just try to pretend nothing happened.

Yeah, I don't know about Germany, but in France there are very high chances that the favorite candidate will directly oppose Marine Le Pen from Front National, who is already riding the Brexit wave and asks for a Frexit referendum. All French politicians (except for her) will want to point and show how UK is now miserable because of their situation. The more obvious, the better.
Things may become nicer mid-2017, but until then they'll take all the benefit they can from the situation.

 

[oti]

I'm sorry but this no negotiations bull shit is nothing more than posturing and pandering to the press.

Let's wait and see what happens once we've settled the PM question.

As much as I respect my EU neighbours, most of what I'm hearing from that side of the channel seems to be bad timed statements that are inflaming an already sensitive situation over here.

Europe - if you've got nothing sensible/helpful to say, how about keeping quiet until we come to you? I know you want to know what's going on as much as we (the UK people) do, but what your saying right now really isn't helping.

There's nothing sensible/helpful to be said. The EU is ready for Brexit negotiations and now everyone's waiting for the UK to get their act together. Which is admittedly not very easy amongst power intrigues, an imploding government and an embarrassing display of incompetence. This whole situation is just frustrating.

 

[Theonik]

It looks very different compared to the current situation, as they had a team behind it. The secrecy involved means we can never be sure about the results but it certainly looks like they wanted to if they couldn't force Greece.
https://next.ft.com/content/0ac1306e-d508-11e3-9187-00144feabdc0

It was investigated but I don't think much came off it. There certainly are not provisions in the treaties for it so they had to find a way around the rules while it not appearing that they were breaking them.
This is different to the UK situation mostly in that no-one really wants article 50 to be triggered so EU leaders quickly pulled back attempts at finding ways to force the UK.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Any suggestions on what will happen? If you want to kick us out I think you're going to have to re-write the rules of the club in a way that might make some other member states a bit nervous.

That was basically what they were planning to do with Greece...

 

[Armaros]

I'm sorry but this no negotiations bull shit is nothing more than posturing and pandering to the press.

Let's wait and see what happens once we've settled the PM question.

As much as I respect my EU neighbours, most of what I'm hearing from that side of the channel seems to be bad timed statements that are inflaming an already sensitive situation over here.

Europe - if you've got nothing sensible/helpful to say, how about keeping quiet until we come to you? I know you want to know what's going on as much as we (the UK people) do, but what your saying right now really isn't helping.

Thats funny, considering Europe seems to be more prepared to deal with this then the UK, and the UK started this mess.

And has two of their major parties in complete disarray.

 

[pigeon]

I have no clue how modern monarchy works, but can she abdicate, officially distance herself from her royal family somehow so that she becomes a normal citizen? Maybe become a nun?

I think if a "totally random old woman we found on the street somewhere with the name of Elisabeth (what a coincidence)" stands in front of the press and delivers a state of the union speech, then the Brits will listen to her.

That way, monarchy itself could persevere, and only she would have to throw herself under the bus, figuratively speaking. (With the understanding that the UK would have to spot her a nice little apartment and some pocket money, obviously. Would be a small price to pay.)

So, I mean, let's break this down a little.

Theoretically, yes, Elizabeth II Stuart is by the Grace of God Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. She can do whatever She feels like doing, She's a divine monarch!

In practice the queen, like everybody else in British politics, is heavily bound by constitutional norms, and for centuries the constitutional norm has been that the royal family really doesn't do anything, because no matter who gets elected to government she has to go along with them.

Could she violate constitutional norms? Sure. It might even work -- see Emperor Hirohito during the Japanese surrender in World War II. But she'd have to be very confident of the rightness of her action and the safety of her ground, or there would be intense backlash -- not in the form of protests or lawmaking but just in people refusing to work with her. Remember that it's less than a hundred years since the British government forced the king to abdicate because they didn't like his marriage choice, which is a somewhat less serious faux pas than speaking out against the result of a democratic referendum called by your government.

But if you want an example of what the consequences would be, you don't even have to look that far back. Jeremy Corbyn is violating the constitutional norms and expectations of the Labour Party leader right now, and that's why he can't muster up enough MPs to fill a bench. That's what the UK government might look like if the queen got involved in politics, until she agreed to abdicate. It's pretty unlikely that that would have any particularly good effects on the current situation. (And no, abdicating beforehand wouldn't really change the ground here. She wouldn't get punished for her actions, but that wouldn't make them useful actions.)

So that's why it's very unlikely that the queen will take any direct action. That doesn't mean she won't call David Cameron on the phone periodically to tell him that he's an asshole, but British constitutional norms are very strict about monarch involvement in politics. The main responsibility of the Queen is actually to help resolve constitutional crises caused by the violation of norms, so she really has to avoid starting her own.*


* Fun note -- in writing this post I went to look up British constitutional crises on Wikipedia to see if I could come up with some examples from after 1911. Here's the latest entry on that page:

The 2016 EU independence referendum with Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU but England and Wales did not. Boris Johnson had led the 'Vote Leave' campaign to victory, leading to the resignation of Prime Minister David Cameron and a Tory leadership contest. Meanwhile, Labour Party is facing a meltdown after a failed coup to remove Jeremy Corbyn by the Labour MPs, which has led to the resignation of many shadow ministers and many roles in the shadow cabinet remains unfilled. On 30th June, Boris Johnson withdrew his Tory leadership bid upon learning that Michael Gove, who he ran the Vote Leave campaign with decided to put his name forward to be the next Prime Minister. UK as a result is facing the possibility of Scotland breaking away from the union, and a power vacuum in the 2 main political parties.

Wikipedia is on the case!

 

[TatteredHat]

Any suggestions on what will happen? If you want to kick us out I think you're going to have to re-write the rules of the club in a way that might make some other member states a bit nervous.

Actually rather than that I think it's more likely that your country descends into civil war as businesses move to the mainland, new foreign investments dry up and your economy continues to destabilize due to the continued uncertainty over the UK leaving the EU.

A stalemate will hurt both sides for sure, which is unfortunate, but this is a situation of the UK's own making.

Spoiler

Just call the whole thing off please, thanks.

 

[Pyramid head]

Can we not just accept that half the people who put an X in the leave box have either forgotten that they ever took part in a vote and and have returned to watching Coronation Street, or are comfortably sitting in their armchairs safe in the knowledge they 'have their country back'. Nobody even cares that they were lied to about the whole NHS thing anymore.

I can't even comprehend that any government would even consider following through with this absolute fucking madness. The racists are the only people left who still care about the result, and they'll forget before long too.

 

[kmag]

Any suggestions on what will happen? If you want to kick us out I think you're going to have to re-write the rules of the club in a way that might make some other member states a bit nervous.

They don't really have to do anything but bait the Tory in charge. The racist hordes of England might give the new PM 6 months but with EU leaders goading them to push the button (and I'm sure Farage won't be quiet) the pressure to act in the UK will be intolerable.

 

[Jezbollah]

Well I don't know, your current PM led a coup against his own government, and then announced he'd quit when it worked. Not sure where that ranks on the political achievements list, but it must be pretty damn low.

You what?

 

[Stuart444]

Mock the Week is some good comedy after all this. Get some good jokes out of this shit show that was the EU Ref.

 

[Tacitus_]

Incidentally that's what the Finland's minister of foreign affairs/Debuty PM said about his statements during his visit to Britain.

Soini? What did that twat say now?

 

[Micael]

Any suggestions on what will happen? If you want to kick us out I think you're going to have to re-write the rules of the club in a way that might make some other member states a bit nervous.

The EU wasn't super fond of the UK to begin with, then they go and make things worse for every EU country by doing some stupid and unnecessary political move, add the increase in racism and xenophobia, and the decades of UK media spinning the EU as the bad guys, the very real benefit to Germany and France of seeing the "end of London", all this while leaving the EU is actually supported by a majority (or close to it at this moment) of the UK population, and has political benefits for people on both sides, given all this and more, it just shouldn't be that complicated for the EU to nudge the UK into pulling article 50, considering the massive difference in political and economical power between the 2.

 

[Jackpot]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...and-michael-gove-betrayed-britain-over-brexit

Though events are moving fast, it’s crucial to hold on to our fury at the selfishness that caused this crisis

Now that the news cycle is measured in seconds, there’s a risk that 23 June might come to feel like history, that we might move on too soon. But there can be no moving on until we have reckoned with what exactly was done to the people of these islands – and by whom.

This week’s antics of Gove and Johnson are a useful reminder. For the way one has treated the other is the way both have treated the country. Some may be tempted to turn Johnson into an object of sympathy – poor Boris, knifed by his pal – but he deserves none. In seven days he has been exposed as an egomaniac whose vanity and ambition was so great he was prepared to lead his country on a path he knew led to disaster, so long as it fed his own appetite for status.

He didn’t believe a word of his own rhetoric, we know that now. His face last Friday morning, ashen with the terror of victory, proved it. That hot mess of a column he served up on Monday confirmed it again: he was trying to back out of the very decision he’d persuaded the country to make.

He knew it was best for Britain to remain in the EU. But it served his ambition to argue otherwise. We just weren’t meant to fall for it. Once we had, he panicked, vanishing during a weekend of national crisis before hiding from parliament. He lit the spark then ran away – petrified at the blaze he started.

Just look at what this act of vandalism has wrought. There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported, as migrants are taunted on the street, told to pack their bags and get out – as if 23 June were a permission slip to every racist and bigot in the land. And for what? So Boris could get a job and so Gove, Hannan and the rest could make Britain more closely resemble the pristine constitutional models of the nation-state found in 17th-century tracts of political philosophy, rather than one that might fit into the interdependent, complex 21st-century world and our blood-drenched European corner of it.

They did it with lies, whether the false promise that we could both halt immigration and enjoy full access to the single market or that deceitful £350m figure, still defended by Gove, which tricked millions into believing a leave vote would bring a cash windfall to the NHS. They did it with no plan, as clueless about post-Brexit Britain as Bush and Blair were about post-invasion Iraq. They did it with no care for the chaos they would unleash.

 

[dealer-]

Can we not just accept that half the people who put an X in the leave box have either forgotten that they ever took part in a vote and and have returned to watching Coronation Street, or are comfortably sitting in their armchairs safe in the knowledge they 'have their country back'. Nobody even cares that they were lied to about the whole NHS thong anymore.

I can't even comprehend that any government would even consider following through with this absolute fucking madness. The racists are the only people left who still care about the result, and they'll forget before long too.

Yeah, just wait for the football season to get underway and then quietly do a u-turn.

 

[oti]

Theoretically this could get reaaaaaly ugly if PM Gove decided it would be a good idea to delay Art. 50 and use UK's veto at some point. It would only make things worse for the UK. If people believe the UK has the upper hand in this because they can't be forced to invoke Art. 50 they're not grasping the situation at hand. Angering the EU even further would be the stupidest thing they could do at this point.

 

[jerry113]

Well at least Lindsey Lohan will be going to Ketting. One "good" thing from this mess.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-36682401

wat

 

[Jasup]

Soini? What did that twat say now?

Basically: Finland is a free country, you can converse freely (link in Finnish)

 

[oti]

Basically: Finland is a free country, you can converse freely (link in Finnish)

Why are such idiots powerful politicians all of a sudden?

 

[Breakage]

Just heard a leave voter on the radio say "we've all got to accept it and move on - we're going to finally set sail towards a bright future and the "hard times" we will endure on the way there are a part of life".

 

[Zaph]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...and-michael-gove-betrayed-britain-over-brexit

Believe me, that fury hasn't gone anywhere.

 

[Micael]

Just heard a leave voter on the radio say "we've all got to accept it and move on - we're going to finally set sail towards a bright future and the "hard times" we will endure on the way there are a part of life".

And a part of that life will be all the deaths caused by increased poverty.