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[jellies_two]

And whose fault is that? The politicians. They did an awful job explaining things. Everybody I knew was confused about the whole thing, myself included, from both sides.

I feel the stay side is just as likely to not know what they voted for either. Ignorance doesn't generally neatly restrict itself to one side of an argument.

 

[Heckler456]

Other than the rhetoric at the end, which part of that statement is a lie exactly?

The notion that these were the repercussions of leaving the EU, when they haven't even started the process of leaving the EU yet, for one.

 

[Rolodzeo]

And whose fault is that? The politicians. They did an awful job explaining things. Everybody I knew was confused about the whole thing, myself included, from both sides.

Yet the confusion didn't stop people voting without having a clue apparently.

 

[Crumpo]

And whose fault is that? The politicians. They did an awful job explaining things. Everybody I knew was confused about the whole thing, myself included, from both sides.

You have the right to vote but the responsibility to inform yourself sufficiently on how to vote.

If people didnt understand the summaries people were giving them why did they vote?

 

[Izuna]

So why not punish Norway for not being a member of the EU? If you can collapse their economy it would send a strong message.

It's mind-blowing how you see the similarity of this. That would be the first step in declaring an economic war.

 

[Shito]

Well there is a huge amount of uncertainty when it comes to new negotiations which should be almost comically unnecessary in the larger picture. But if the people in charge of the trade agreements are negotiating in bad spirits from the position that the UK should be made to suffer for betraying the EU then there is a problem. What sort of problem it ends up being in the long term is again uncertain and again comically unnecessary.

*sigh*
I don't get what's so hard to understand that it needs repeating like nearly every page or so.
UK is back to the negociation table with a weaker hand that it had before, which means they will get a worse deal than they had before. Simple as that. This has nothing to do with feelings or emotions, this is negociation 101.

 

[CelticKnight]

Other than the rhetoric at the end, which part of that statement is a lie exactly?

The part about "Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong".

From Reuters an hour or two ago:

The White House has said that US President Barack Obama stands by comments he made that Britain would move to the "back of the queue" for trade talks in the event of a British exit from the EU, Reuters news agency reports.

Mr Obama made the comments in a visit to the UK in April.

 

[Nafai1123]

This is the Norwegian model: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/norwegian-model-realities-brexit-norway-uk-eu

It sounds like Britain is going to have to accept the Turkish model though.

This article does a great job of pointing out some of the issue with the argument "Why can't the UK just do the same thing as Norway?"

As the price for access to the EU’s single market for its fish and energy, Norway accepted in 1992 the free movement of workers and now probably pays more per capita in grants to EU states than the UK. Oslo airport at the weekend is jammed with many migrants returning to their homes outside Norway.


Worse, Norway does not sit or vote on any EU committees and is portrayed as a willing serf waiting by the computer to download its instructions from Brussels. It is a case of not being in Europe, but still run by Europe. “Some say we are more integrated in the EU than some full EU member states”, says Aspaker.

Ulf Sverdrup, the head of an international thinktank, was commissioned by the government in 2010 to review the Norwegian-EU relationship. He has meticulously charted the degree to which Norway had been Europeanised. Though the figures are contested, his report shows 75% of EU laws are incorporated in Norway. The number of EU legal documents had gown eightfold, leaving a constitutional patchwork that few Norwegians understand.

“If the Brits are against all the regulations made in Brussels, I think the EEA way is not the solution. Being an EEA member means you are not at the table, yet you have to take in much of the legislation. When you listen to the debate going on on the leave side in Britain, it is hard to imagine that the EEA should be a solution to their problems.”

Sounds like the exact thing leavers were voting against.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Obama. lol

 

[pswii60]

I love how leave campaign kept going on about Turkey joining the EU and how that meant Britain should leave the EU.

Yet now, it is going to have to stand right next to Turkey, and get treated JUST like Turkey.

Fucking hell!

It won't happen. Negotiating 101. EU will start from the very bottom, UK will start from the top, at some point they meet but it'll be above Turkey.

I voted to remain, but now we're leaving it can't be a halfway house. The UK needs to be positive, outward looking and take benefit of this situation, rather than pandering to a Norway style relationship which will just get us back to square one but worse.

 

[Boy Wander]

Then why are you arguing against the EU if you don't even think it's so bad? Devil's advocate?

I'm trying to explain the reasons why this went down the way it did. A lot of people just shout racism and think that's a good enough explanation. Its not.

I'm on the fence as to whether it's a bad thing or not.

 

[Izuna]

Other than the rhetoric at the end, which part of that statement is a lie exactly?

I could show various links, or perhaps I could see the first time someone backing up any of the claims the Leave side makes. Show me where what she says is the truth.

 

[captive]

I totally read this as him as House, making his smirk and American accent.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Yet the confusion didn't stop people voting without having a clue apparently.

So you suggest they don't vote? That's what certain members of my family did since they couldn't get their heads around what it meant leaving or staying in and other people I know did vote but left the polling stations confused what they just voted for. This "putting the blame" on people's heads is really pathetic when the public were obviously confused since politicians change their stories every other week all of the time. Both sides were awful at explaining their points. Especially the Remain side since that's why we have the results that we have now.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

*sigh*
I don't get what's so hard to understand that it needs repeating like nearly every page or so.
UK is back to the negociation table with a weaker hand that it had before, which means they will get a worse deal than they had before. Simple as that. This has nothing to do with feelings or emotions, this is negociation 101.

I was replying to people who are saying that the UK should be punished in trade negotiations to set a punitive example to other countries. Is this what you mean by weaker hand because that sounds like some very dubious political motivation to me.

 

[KingSnake]

At the swipe of a pen

There will be many pens swiped from now on despite your tens of posts in this thread that tried to say a different thing.

 

[axisofweevils]

Hmm, this is interesting, seems a party could campaign on not enacting Article 50 in the future. https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/746488887200129024

 

[Metroxed]

So why not punish Norway for not being a member of the EU? If you can collapse their economy it would send a strong message.

Norway has never been a member and has negotiated its position from outside. It's not about "punishing" those who are outside, it's about showing that if you leave you lose all the perks of the membership. It's only logical. Everything the UK had as a EU member should be negotiated again from scratch and based on the current leverage each side has. Logic tells that things will not remain the same, and that the EU should negotiate with the interest of the 27 members in mind, and if that means screwing the UK somehow, it's unfortunate, but so be it. Because now they are not longer our common interests, they are OUR (EU) interests against yours (UK).

If the EU just "lets" UK take it all when leaving, then everyone else will want to leave too. I know that I will, because it will show that the EU is completely pointless, and I do not want to reach that conclusion.

 

[*Splinter]

Other than the rhetoric at the end, which part of that statement is a lie exactly?

Yes it's more misleading than outright lies. Various points (FTSE, £, Obama) have been "debunked" to some extent throughout this thread.

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

What I want to know is... when will UKIP stop lying?

Where is the lie? No seriously, I get that people hate the evil racist but their market information is accurate the FTSE open the week at 6021 and ended it at 6162. The pound did bottom out at 1.32 but then rally to 1.39 and then call down at 1.36, which is similar levels at February and not just that but the market has been on a week long rally fulled by pro remain investments, which basically cash out as soon as leave was certain. And the part of best weekly performance, they are kinda right though I haven't done the math I do remember the past 2 weeks the FTSE closing the week with marginal gains or even loses.

Economically they aren't lying, though they are being optimistic but then again anyone that has an eye on the markets can tell that the reason for the "crash" was more of how certain the markets were for remain to win rather than a reaction towards how the UK economy will play out as an individual state outside of the EU.

 

[BKK]

Congratulations to the EU for recognising the British people's right to self determination. If Scotland, Northern Ireland (yeah ... that's complicated) or Gibraltar wish to have a referendum on self determination, we will support them. If they wish to leave then we will help them all that we can, or if they wish to remain as part of the Union, we will respect that too.

Unlike the undemocratic EU we respect the right to self-determination. And even if Gibraltar votes to go it alone, we will respect that right, and as an ally for over three hundered years, at her request we will protect her from any enemies and any invaders.

Personally, I'm sorry for Gibraltar, I realise that this will cause serious issues for you, but realise, whatever you choose, we will respect that choice, and defend you as we would our own.

 

[geordiemp]

He was talking specifically about UK MEPs, rather than the state aid stuff.

Same point, we pay in double what we get back, what we get back includes our MEP's.

Uk voted to join a common market, we no longer just have that, UK does not want an EU president and federal state. It seems rejecting this means some just want to punish to scare others into not doing the same.

If people cannot see how the above reads.....well, there you go.

 

[Boy Wander]

The part about "Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong".

From Reuters an hour or two ago:

The special relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom is enduring, and the United Kingdom’s membership in Nato remains a vital cornerstone of US foreign, security, and economic policy

“So too is our relationship with the European Union, which has done so much to promote stability, stimulate economic growth, and foster the spread of democratic values and ideals across the continent and beyond.

He continued: “The United Kingdom and the European Union will remain indispensable partners of the United States even as they begin negotiating their ongoing relationship to ensure continued stability, security, and prosperity for Europe, Great Britain, and Northern Ireland, and the world. 

 

[Philly40]

Unlike the undemocratic EU we respect the right to self-determination. And even if Gibraltar votes to go it alone, we will respect that right, and as an ally for over three hundered years, at her request we will protect her from any enemies and any invaders.

Are you in the military?

 

[pswii60]

Congratulations to the EU for recognising the British people's right to self determination. If Scotland, Northern Ireland (yeah ... that's complicated) or Gibraltar wish to have a referendum on self determination, we will support them. If they wish to leave then we will help them all that we can, or if they wish to remain as part of the Union, we will respect that too.

Unlike the undemocratic EU we respect the right to self-determination. And even if Gibraltar votes to go it alone, we will respect that right, and as an ally for over three hundered years, at her request we will protect her from any enemies and any invaders.

Personally, I'm sorry for Gibraltar, I realise that this will cause serious issues for you, but realise, whatever you choose, we will respect that choice, and defend you as we would our own.

Boris? Nigel?

 

[Izuna]

Where is the lie? No seriously, I get that people hate the evil racist but their market information is accurate the FTSE open the week at 6021 and ended it at 6162. The pound did bottom out at 1.32 but then rally to 1.39 and then call down at 1.36, which is similar levels at February and not just that but the market has been on a week long rally fulled by pro remain investments, which basically cash out as soon as leave was certain. And the part of best weekly performance, they are kinda right though I haven't done the math I do remember the past 2 weeks the FTSE closing the week with marginal gains or even loses.

Economically they aren't lying, though they are being optimistic but then again anyone that has an eye on the markets can tell that the reason for the "crash" was more of how certain the markets were for remain to win rather than a reaction towards how the UK economy will play out as an individual state outside of the EU.

You can read above for the rest (I posted some links, others have weighed in) -- but that part about FTSE... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...erling-surge-or-slump-as-the-eu-referendum-c/ this says the exact opposite. Can I see any reputable source that seems to tell the 100% different story?

I want one piece of hard evidence that any of the crap she said was true, a single news article or link of a reputable source, please.

As much as I am opposed to the fact that we have left, I am not picking and choosing where I get my information from. I only ever hear brexit good news in a comment that links to nothing.

 

[Boy Wander]

I could show various links, or perhaps I could see the first time someone backing up any of the claims the Leave side makes. Show me where what she says is the truth.

It's spin, not outright lies. And nothing worse than the fear-mongering being peddled by Remain.

 

[Alanae]

Congratulations to the EU for recognising the British people's right to self determination. If Scotland, Northern Ireland (yeah ... that's complicated) or Gibraltar wish to have a referendum on self determination, we will support them. If they wish to leave then we will help them all that we can, or if they wish to remain as part of the Union, we will respect that too.

Unlike the undemocratic EU we respect the right to self-determination. And even if Gibraltar votes to go it alone, we will respect that right, and as an ally for over three hundered years, at her request we will protect her from any enemies and any invaders.

Personally, I'm sorry for Gibraltar, I realise that this will cause serious issues for you, but realise, whatever you choose, we will respect that choice, and defend you as we would our own.

we?

 

[tuxfool]

Congratulations to the EU for recognising the British people's right to self determination. If Scotland, Northern Ireland (yeah ... that's complicated) or Gibraltar wish to have a referendum on self determination, we will support them. If they wish to leave then we will help them all that we can, or if they wish to remain as part of the Union, we will respect that too.

Unlike the undemocratic EU we respect the right to self-determination. And even if Gibraltar votes to go it alone, we will respect that right, and as an ally for over three hundered years, at her request we will protect her from any enemies and any invaders.

Personally, I'm sorry for Gibraltar, I realise that this will cause serious issues for you, but realise, whatever you choose, we will respect that choice, and defend you as we would our own.

Who the hell are you to speak for everyone?

 

[*Splinter]

Congratulations to the EU for recognising the British people's right to self determination. If Scotland, Northern Ireland (yeah ... that's complicated) or Gibraltar wish to have a referendum on self determination, we will support them. If they wish to leave then we will help them all that we can, or if they wish to remain as part of the Union, we will respect that too.

Unlike the undemocratic EU we respect the right to self-determination. And even if Gibraltar votes to go it alone, we will respect that right, and as an ally for over three hundered years, at her request we will protect her from any enemies and any invaders.

Personally, I'm sorry for Gibraltar, I realise that this will cause serious issues for you, but realise, whatever you choose, we will respect that choice, and defend you as we would our own.

Err, that sounds nice and all but... you and what army m8?

 

[Crumpo]

Where is the lie? No seriously, I get that people hate the evil racist but their market information is accurate the FTSE open the week at 6021 and ended it at 6162. The pound did bottom out at 1.32 but then rally to 1.39 and then call down at 1.36, which is similar levels at February and not just that but the market has been on a week long rally fulled by pro remain investments, which basically cash out as soon as leave was certain. And the part of best weekly performance, they are kinda right though I haven't done the math I do remember the past 2 weeks the FTSE closing the week with marginal gains or even loses.

Economically they aren't lying, though they are being optimistic but then again anyone that has an eye on the markets can tell that the reason for the "crash" was more of how certain the markets were for remain to win rather than a reaction towards how the UK economy will play out as an individual state outside of the EU.

As many have said (including me, MANY pages ago) it's downright misleading. She may as well have said "the sun is out today; see, Brexit isn't so bad"...oh wait, Farage actually did say that.

 

[Izuna]

The special relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom is enduring, and the United Kingdom’s membership in Nato remains a vital cornerstone of US foreign, security, and economic policy

“So too is our relationship with the European Union, which has done so much to promote stability, stimulate economic growth, and foster the spread of democratic values and ideals across the continent and beyond.

He continued: “The United Kingdom and the European Union will remain indispensable partners of the United States even as they begin negotiating their ongoing relationship to ensure continued stability, security, and prosperity for Europe, Great Britain, and Northern Ireland, and the world. 

And where in your post, do you refute that him backtracking is BS? He has only said there is a special relationship, but no where does he say Britain won't be on the back of a queue.

 

[RulkezX]

Some of you sure do seem to be enjoying the idea of Britain getting fucked over in whatever comes next.

 

[CelticKnight]

The special relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom is enduring, and the United Kingdom’s membership in Nato remains a vital cornerstone of US foreign, security, and economic policy

“So too is our relationship with the European Union, which has done so much to promote stability, stimulate economic growth, and foster the spread of democratic values and ideals across the continent and beyond.

He continued: “The United Kingdom and the European Union will remain indispensable partners of the United States even as they begin negotiating their ongoing relationship to ensure continued stability, security, and prosperity for Europe, Great Britain, and Northern Ireland, and the world. 

The UKIP person said Obama decided we WOULDN'T be at the back of the queue.

When it comes to trade with the U.S., Britain will move to the back of the line.

President Barack Obama stands by his comment that Britain would move to the back of the queue when it comes to trade deals with the United States if it left the European Union, the White House said on Friday.

“Obviously, the president stands by what he said and I don’t have an update of our position,” White House spokesman Eric Schultz told reporters at a briefing.

We ARE at the back of the queue. She's putting words into his mouth. She's lying (a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood).

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Congratulations to the EU for recognising the British people's right to self determination. If Scotland, Northern Ireland (yeah ... that's complicated) or Gibraltar wish to have a referendum on self determination, we will support them. If they wish to leave then we will help them all that we can, or if they wish to remain as part of the Union, we will respect that too.

Unlike the undemocratic EU we respect the right to self-determination. And even if Gibraltar votes to go it alone, we will respect that right, and as an ally for over three hundered years, at her request we will protect her from any enemies and any invaders.

Personally, I'm sorry for Gibraltar, I realise that this will cause serious issues for you, but realise, whatever you choose, we will respect that choice, and defend you as we would our own.

I am confused.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

It's spin, not outright lies. And nothing worse than the fear-mongering being peddled by Remain.

Seriously. It's like the apocalypse in here. It's been a day. We're still in for around 2 years anyway.

 

[suedester]

The stornger position argment is total horsehit.


UK negotiating position going into Article 50:

- Currently in recession
- Currently battling potential secession of Scotland and Gibraltar
- Hugely dependent on maintaining financial passport for City
- Has no leverage since it has already chosen to leave.

EU negotiating position
- Doorway to single market
- Not under any pressure to negotiate
- Need to set example that you don't get better terms out vs. in


The result is child's play. 'We export tings lol' is a comical argument, the UK is a small country by itself. Get ready to feel it.

Bullshit. Since when was the UK in recession? You are making up shit to support your position. Tell businesses in the EU that relies on exports to the UK that there is no pressure to negotiate. I'm sure those German car manufacturers can't wait to start paying tariffs.

 

[hawk2025]

Where is the lie? No seriously, I get that people hate the evil racist but their market information is accurate the FTSE open the week at 6021 and ended it at 6162. The pound did bottom out at 1.32 but then rally to 1.39 and then call down at 1.36, which is similar levels at February and not just that but the market has been on a week long rally fulled by pro remain investments, which basically cash out as soon as leave was certain. And the part of best weekly performance, they are kinda right though I haven't done the math I do remember the past 2 weeks the FTSE closing the week with marginal gains or even loses.

Economically they aren't lying, though they are being optimistic but then again anyone that has an eye on the markets can tell that the reason for the "crash" was more of how certain the markets were for remain to win rather than a reaction towards how the UK economy will play out as an individual state outside of the EU.

Yes, they are.

I already pointed out, for example, that the February bottom was PRECISELY because of Brexit.

They are lying through their teeth.

Your second paragraph is nonsensical and self-contradictory.

 

[RedSparrows]

I love this 'the EU does not allow self-determination' celebration after a referendum decision to leave the EU.

 

[Izuna]

It's spin, not outright lies. And nothing worse than the fear-mongering being peddled by Remain.

Oh ffs, I should have known that was the response I would get. I know you are trying to play devil's advocate and make this all about facts.. but you came to me asking for me to prove what she said was lies.

You've just said... "they're kinda lies... But remains did too!"

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Bullshit. Since when was the UK in recession? You are making up shit to support your position. Tell businesses in the EU that relies on exports to the UK that there is no pressure to negotiate. I'm sure those German car manufacturers can't wait to start paying tariffs.

Experts warned the UK will find itself in a recession at some point. The same experts who said the pound would fall and jobs would go overseas. Both of which we have seen happen today, while we are still in the EU.

 

[geordiemp]

Some of you sure do seem to be enjoying the idea of Britain getting fucked over in whatever comes next.

Yeah you had noticed allot of spite as well. Maybe its this thread, idk...

 

[Boy Wander]

And where in your post, do you refute that him backtracking is BS? He has only said there is a special relationship, but no where does he say Britain won't be on the back of a queue.

Not very special then is it? He was fear-mongering supporting his mate Posh Dave.

 

[tuxfool]

Experts warned the UK will find itself in a recession at some point.

Experts are all liars clearly.

 

[call_kotaku]

So I'm assuming whichever party is still in charge for the next 2 years will want to delay this for as long as possible, since logically there's no way they can negotiate an exit deal that's favorable to both the EU and the British populace, right? Wouldn't actually compromising on a deal be political suicide in this climate?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Where is the lie? No seriously, I get that people hate the evil racist but their market information is accurate the FTSE open the week at 6021 and ended it at 6162. The pound did bottom out at 1.32 but then rally to 1.39 and then call down at 1.36, which is similar levels at February and not just that but the market has been on a week long rally fulled by pro remain investments, which basically cash out as soon as leave was certain. And the part of best weekly performance, they are kinda right though I haven't done the math I do remember the past 2 weeks the FTSE closing the week with marginal gains or even loses.

Economically they aren't lying, though they are being optimistic but then again anyone that has an eye on the markets can tell that the reason for the "crash" was more of how certain the markets were for remain to win rather than a reaction towards how the UK economy will play out as an individual state outside of the EU.

The lie remains at the fact that you are still part of the EU, Cameron didn't even had the balls to call Article 50.

There's no freedom, yet, any real impact in the UK economy (and EU) is yet to be seen.

 

[jellies_two]

I love this 'the EU does not allow self-determination' celebration after a referendum decision to leave the EU.

Well it does but only in a my way or the byway kind of thing. Obviously member states can influence things but the whole damn point of an EU is to harmonize everything under central control so at best the uk would have in the EU 1/6th of influence over self determination vs Switzerland or Norway.

 

[Screaming Meat]

So why not punish Norway for not being a member of the EU? If you can collapse their economy it would send a strong message.

Norway was never in, so they don't need to "punish" them. Look: the UK is the first member state to leave the EU. It would send a bad message to the rest of the member states if the EU made trade agreements with the UK that were equal to (or better than) when we were in. They have to set a precedent. It's in their best interests.

 

[Izuna]

Really, what I am tired of is that no matter where I go, whether it is down the pub -- haearing debates on TV, NeoGAF or Facebook -- those who swear by the pros of Brexit stop right at the point there they should show evidence things are going smoothly by saying "well the Remain campaign was arrogant/said it was just racism/etc!"

Part of me REALLY wants to see the light in all of this and apart from UKIP posters sharing nonsense on facebook which nothing to back up what they saying, there is no light.

The doom and gloom is being reported everywhere and the only refute is "dude it will get better/it's not as bad as you think" -- prove it then

Not very special then is it? He was fear-mongering supporting his mate Posh Dave.

No, what we have is the white house double downing on what Obama said after Brexit. There is no indication of a backtrack. It's a lie.

 

[BKK]

Same point, we pay in double what we get back, what we get back includes our MEP's.

Uk voted to join a common market, we no longer just have that, UK does not want an EU president and federal state. It seems rejecting this means some just want to punish to scare others into not doing the same.

If people cannot see how the above reads.....well, there you go.

EU is at a cross-roads now. Double-down, ignore the common-man, and push for further integration. Personally I think that that is unsustainable. Or they can realise that most Europeans don't want to head in that direction, and set up a multi-speed Europe. The latter would seem sustainable to me, but they should have been more flexible before they forced the UK to leave the EU.

If EU countries want to allign politically, that's fine, but I don't understand the desire to force this upon non-willing participants. I find it quite scary what the result would be if it was the most weakest military in Europe rather than the strongest.
.