ferrasvansen
Member
Hearing it was a tie and he had left to go outside and talk, however he was by then a candidate and couldn't vote so I smell some shite here.
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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin
- Thread starter Hazzuh
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Hearing it was a tie and he had left to go outside and talk, however he was by then a candidate and couldn't vote so I smell some shite here.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Hopefully, if one good thing comes out of this, maybe Labour will create a sane constitution for itself.
The fact that the leader isn't actually beholden to votes of no confidence, and in fact can win votes of no confidence and still get challenged for the leadership anyway by the losing side (because THAT makes sense), and everything is so horribly unclear, strikes me as a good reason for some smart people in that camp to put their heads together and do some revising.
The fact that the leader isn't actually beholden to votes of no confidence, and in fact can win votes of no confidence and still get challenged for the leadership anyway by the losing side (because THAT makes sense), and everything is so horribly unclear, strikes me as a good reason for some smart people in that camp to put their heads together and do some revising.
HighResTomato
Member
Waiting till people leave to call a vote, wow. Getting really ugly now
ferrasvansen
Member
Different things maybe but when you have a one party state it tends to use a police state method of ruling and such to rule with an iron fist. Funnily enough was watching V for Vendetta last night and remarked to my parents the same thoughts I said here, reminded me of what's happening here with Brexit, immigration and such.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Honestly, I've always thought the wording was reasonably clear and this was just a huge piece of desperation on behalf of the anti-Corbynites.
ferrasvansen
Member
Couldn't have been that clear if multiple legal firms disagreed, personally I thought it was a bit ambiguous and could have been used by either side.
JonathanEx
Member
If nothing else, the vote of no confidence forcing the leader to lose their position would be logical.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Legal firms can disagree with most things when they're paid to do so.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
The Labour constitution doesn't actually have a provision for votes of no confidence (the one that happened was non-binding/essentially just a bit of theatre), which is sensible insofar as why have a VoNC if you don't have a challenger? Challenging is de facto a VoNC.
Coriolanus
Banned
I can vouch for this.
ferrasvansen
Member
I suppose but I'm sure they could have made it clearer for sure, having read the constitution many times since the 80s it was always a bit of a minefield for ease of understanding.
Visualante2
Member
the 48 hour window thing is dumb, the site will crash and make the party look even more incompetent.
Huw_Dawson
Member
The wording is this:
"Where there is no vacancy, nominations may be sought by potential challengers each year prior to the annual session of party conference. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20 per cent of the Commons members of the PLP. Nominations not attaining this threshold shall be null and void."
Absolutely no mention exists of what happens to the incumbent.
My personal interpretation would be that you can get yourself elected as leader this way, but I don't see how Corbyn's supposed to be *removed* as leader this way.
A strong trade union can help even those not directly employed. Besides, students work.
CelticKnight
Member
She only said it 'cos she had bugger all else to say, and it wasn't even an answer to a particular question.
Watching that interview gave me the impression that she's in way over her head.
ferrasvansen
Member
Thing is it doesn't say that the incumbent doesn't need the same, in fact it doesn't say anything that's the strange thing. No mention of current leader going straight to ballot, in fact nothing at all. All in all a complete shambles, it should say clearly what happens to the current leader.
ferrasvansen
Member
Interesting tweet from a Tory, must admit I admire his sentiment entirely. This country desperately needs a potent opposition, no a circus run by clowns.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardBenyonMP/status/752941098205605889
https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardBenyonMP/status/752941098205605889
Huw_Dawson
Member
Yeah, I added my thoughts in an edit.
BTW I got a good chuckle out of the fact that the actual method of voting is left to the NEC's imagination in the rules. It just says that the election should be fair, open and transparent.
ferrasvansen
Member
Yeah it's a bit weird, I guess they can just decide on a case by case basis, jeez what a mess. I think after this someone should sit down and rewrite and include the missing info to prevent a repeat of this mess.
John McDonnell: "As plotters they were fucking useless". Shadow Chancellor describes 80% of his colleagues.
PJV3
Member
Coriolanus
Banned
While the language could most certainly be better, he is correct. The incompetent bastards did not prepare correctly, tried to take advantage of a moment of perceived weakness, grossly misjudged their power, crossed the fucking rubicon, and... only succeeded in weakening the party.
Corbs has his faults, sure, but so do they.
If absolutely everything else goes their way, all theyll have to show for it is a pyrrhic victory.
More likely that it wont, of course, and a key period that couldve been used to attack the tories will instead be wasted on this mess.
Corbs has his faults, sure, but so do they.
If absolutely everything else goes their way, all theyll have to show for it is a pyrrhic victory.
More likely that it wont, of course, and a key period that couldve been used to attack the tories will instead be wasted on this mess.
ferrasvansen
Member
That's why he will never be Chancellor, unprofessional and useless. Considering how many folk voted for the plotters and likely pressured them to remove Corbyn, pretty much sums up their attitude to the general public. The days of Labour standing up for the working class are long gone and they will turn to the UKIP, scary stuff.
He's not wrong. Say what you like about the Tories, their coups are effective and clean. They either succeed or fail, and they don't drag them out forever regardless.
I still think it's a dumb thing to say tho. :/
Everything about Labour seems useless atm
JonathanEx
Member
He's correct at their ability to plot, but uh, that's not going to help anybody now is it
He's not wrong though, even if he shouldn't have said it.
PJV3
Member
Gormless Abbott laughing makes it even worse.
I see no way back for the PLP if they lose the election and Corbyn stays.
I've really fallen out of love with Corbyn after his half-arsed Remain campaign but this arbitrary, retroactive disenfranchisement of Labour supporters is a really scummy move.
Also I could understand wanting to oust him if Dan Jarvis wanted the leadership or David Miliband wanted to return to politics but if Angela Eagle and maybe Tom Watson and Hillary Benn are the best the rebels can do then what's the bloody point?
Also I could understand wanting to oust him if Dan Jarvis wanted the leadership or David Miliband wanted to return to politics but if Angela Eagle and maybe Tom Watson and Hillary Benn are the best the rebels can do then what's the bloody point?
The only mistake MPs made was assuming that Corbyn had any interest in parliamentary democracy. Was the conservative party passing a vote of no confidence against Thatcher or IDS "fucking useless"? Also, both of them (definitely Thatcher) could probably have been re-elected leader if it was taken to the party membership.
Also, if he really thinks 80% of his colleagues are "fucking useless plotters" is he in favour of deselecting them? They definitely can't be in the shadow cabinet if that is his POV.
Also, if he really thinks 80% of his colleagues are "fucking useless plotters" is he in favour of deselecting them? They definitely can't be in the shadow cabinet if that is his POV.
ferrasvansen
Member
Can you imagine the backlash at the next election if they deselect all the plotters, voters won't take kindly to such actions especially with many of the plotters being very popular within the constituencies. What a total shitstorm of a mess, comical and sad in equal measures.
You guys didn't quote the whole rule. It has two parts and would make no sense whatsoever if the incumbent also had to get supporters.
ferrasvansen
Member
PJV3
Member
I can't see the MPs returning to work for Corbyn at that point, it will be a humiliation.
No confidence, I wish Corbyn supporters would get what that means into their heads.
The Tory election machine and the electorate are not going to let it go.
So Corbyn wins again and instead of supporting that democratic vote by members (even when they've stacked the rules in their favour) they're just going to sulk and make a 'No Homers' club. I'm sure people will flock to that party. Maybe if the PLP put up a credible alternative it wouldn't be such an embarrassment.
PJV3
Member
I'm not defending the PLP, the fact is they have by a very large margin declared him unfit to be the leader of the opposition. The Tory machine will be ruthless and the public will not forget or risk their livelihoods on Jeremy Corbyn. He's finished and I was hopeful he could do better.
Well, yes. Yes they can and will if they wish. It's not democratic, true, but if they don't want to work under him, then they'll leave and form their own party. If you worked under a boss you hated and you had an opportunity to leave for a more viable and better alternative, you'd take it. That's how people think.
Commander Jameson
Member
This is what I don't understand about the PLP. If Corbyn is so terrible and awful, then it must be easy to find someone better. Either someone with better policies, better control of the MPs, better speaking abilities, whatever. Why not just put the best person up against Corbyn and let them put their case forward?
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Because each of them is convinced that person is themselves, and they're terrible judges of character.
freethought
Member
This lack of leadership is a testament to how truly democratic the Labour Party really is. Everyone has an equal voice, as long as they have 25 quid to spare. Socialism!
I think I may be dead inside.
travisbickle
Member
The public's their boss. It's like them being pissed off at the team leader, and the boss is saying "can you guys sort this out because there's no one else who wants to be or is able to be team leader"
Hey, I don't make the rules here, I'm just the messenger. Point is the vast majority of the PLP don't care what the membership think. As far as they care, the party's been hijacked by the left to far-left, who fail to realise that the lack of compromise from Corbyn, which is crucial in all walks of life not just politics, has made the party very unappealing to their usual voting blog, who could easily flock to the Tories or ukip even. If that happens, they're gone, end of story.
The left in the UK simply doesn't appeal to the working to lower middle class, who only care about getting money in their pockets and a roof over their heads, the same voters who voted leave in the European referendum because they felt that was the best option that was given to them regardless or whether it was correct or not. They don't give a rat's arse about solidarity with this third world country or stopping this latest war in middle eastern country no.457, they only care that their representative in the house of parliament will get them what they want, not what's in the interest of global peace or being friendly to some country in middle of south America or even for the good of the country. That's it. The PLP who don't support corbyn recognise where their voting base traditionally is, and they fear a wipeout in the next GE if their voting blog continues to dwindle underneath them. But that's their thinking, not mine. I'm too busy watching this all with morbid curiously about what happens next.
The difference is pretty significant, I think. 26% of American nonvoters support Democrats compared to 15% supporting the Republicans. That is a sizable difference!
http://nonvotersinamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Summary-Report-12-13-12.pdf
As Sean C noted, I am not suggesting that Corbyn is singularly responsible. In this case failure has many fathers. But I definitely think he shoulders some of the responsibility, and since it is pretty much the worst self-inflicted wound a country has given itself for as long as I can think of, that's a pretty serious mistake.
Sure, the Tories are by and large much more responsible, but hey, they all resigned. Corbyn's still around!
I mean, if you think Corbyn allowed Brexit to happen because he wasn't convinced it was that bad an idea, that's a much, much worse condemnation than just saying he let it happen by being stupid. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.
I mean, this is somewhat of a reasonable argument, but it's very hypothetical. The Remain campaign said they actually did focus testing and Corbyn/Cameron together tested very well. Corbyn tried not doing that and it pretty much failed in all the places that Labour was supposed to convince people.
I guess it's possible that there was a third option that nobody attempted or investigated that would have worked way better, but it strikes me as a little bit wishful thinking to postulate that now. I tend to incline towards the data we have.
All that said, this poll tax thing is completely crazy and kind of disgusting. It's hard for me to imagine this playing out well for labor. The disenfranchisement arguments pretty much write themselves. I look forward to the UK eventually having a functional political system. Hopefully it can happen while Hillary's still in office!
travisbickle
Member
All he ever does at PMQs is ask questions from Tracey in Grimsby why she's unable to get a suitable house for her and her disabled child.
The guy's a shit leader but the contempt he has received in the house for actually talking about real people's issues is fuckin' disgusting. The political class just sit around thinking about duck ponds and Opera, I expect half of them own Rococo art without a hint of irony.
Haha! I was going to reference V for Vendetta, as I figured that was where you were coming from.
It'll take a while before things are that bad... but who knows!
QuicheFontaine
Member
The union probably lobbies for better daytime TV
CyclopsRock
Member
They are two different electorates though, aren't they? As is always the case with primaries, you need to be pretty extreme to win because - by and large - membership of parties is more extreme than the electorate at large. Unfortunately, it's the former that pick the leader and the latter that ultimately vote. It's entirely possible for both Corbyn to be shit and the PLP not be able to beat him in the leadership contest at the same time.
They're not doing very well!
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