Sir_Crocodile
Member
would he come back in lycra
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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin
- Thread starter Hazzuh
- Start date
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would he come back in lycra
m.i.s.
Banned
Thanks, amended to alternative news source.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Wants to nationalise the internet now.
Corbyn launched his digital democracy thing with a "cybernetic communist" who supports the IRA, blames Israel for the antisemitism crisis in the Labour party and apparently intends to train "the militants of cybernetic revolution to come".
Bony Manifesto
Member
As good an idea as a national investment bank is, I hate how it's going to be treated as some bottomless pool of cash that Corbyn will use to explain how he will fund every one of his policies.
Jezbollah
Member
Ah the fabled National Investment Bank, with it's vineyards of money growing trees. So this week it's nationalizing the UK's cellular data network. Did he ever answer that question last week about how much it would actually cost to re-nationalize the train operating companies? Or did he just keep walking off when asked?
JonathanEx
Member
Some decent ideas that get lost within a larger in lack of detail and reality across the whole board of policies.
So all the norm there then.
EDIT: Oh I forgot to mock his idea of basically having more meetings to decide policy. There's opening up policymaking, sure, but he seems to just want to do it in a terribly planned way in which the sort of people who like going to meetings would decide everything. Meetings are awful.
So all the norm there then.
EDIT: Oh I forgot to mock his idea of basically having more meetings to decide policy. There's opening up policymaking, sure, but he seems to just want to do it in a terribly planned way in which the sort of people who like going to meetings would decide everything. Meetings are awful.
So I got a phone call from the Labour Party this afternoon, asking me a list of questions that presumably is meant to eliminate me from voting. Also included a question asking me what party I voted for at the last election which seems incredibly stupid to say the least.
The NEC really are handling this badly.
The NEC really are handling this badly.
Nicktendo86
Member
New times/yougov poll out tonight:
Corbyn - 62%
Smith - 38%
Increased mandate for Jez, will be impossible to get rid of him.
Rip labour.
Edit: beaten like a moderate at a labour leadership election.
Corbyn - 62%
Smith - 38%
Increased mandate for Jez, will be impossible to get rid of him.
Rip labour.
Edit: beaten like a moderate at a labour leadership election.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You can see the despair in Smith voters. They don't think he'll win either. He's just a vessel for the anything but Corbyn sentiment. There's no light at the end of this tunnel.
Really what he deserves is a peerage.
CyclopsRock
Member
I like how, amongst UK Adults, "Don't know" wins the preference.
Jezbollah
Member
Mana from heaven for them. Corbyn is quite possibly the best thing that has ever happened for the Conservatives.
What a disaster. Literally planning out political extinction. And Christ at those replacement leaders.
The libs will eclipse labour as the second party if they play it right. A 'progressive alliance' that can't even get 200 seats, what a fucking disgrace.
Where do they think these mysterious progressive voters are coming from? They don't exist in England, they don't exist in Scotland and they don't exist in Wales.
The libs will eclipse labour as the second party if they play it right. A 'progressive alliance' that can't even get 200 seats, what a fucking disgrace.
Where do they think these mysterious progressive voters are coming from? They don't exist in England, they don't exist in Scotland and they don't exist in Wales.
Nicktendo86
Member
It gets worse really when you have a proper look at the numbers, Smith has a big lead in the pre May 15 support but the opposite is true after that, when the Corbynites started to join up.
Now, imagine if Corbyn makes it to 2020, which is likely if he indeed wins the leadership election by a margin suggested by Yougov. Who will be the ones leading up to the election knocking on doors, handing out leaflets and making sure the vote gets out on the day? You would say those pre-May 15 supporters would be the ones, they are probably the members who have been with the party for years. Only 32% of them support Corbyn, you would have to assume a large chunk of those members would simply not bother to help the party by knocking on doors and asking people to install a man they don't like as PM.
So, who would step up to fill that gap? The post May 15 Corbynites? How many would actually do the leg work? Would Labour really want people who go to picket Tory party conference to spit at journalists representing the party at the doorstep?
The more you analyse the situation the more fucked up it looks.
Now, imagine if Corbyn makes it to 2020, which is likely if he indeed wins the leadership election by a margin suggested by Yougov. Who will be the ones leading up to the election knocking on doors, handing out leaflets and making sure the vote gets out on the day? You would say those pre-May 15 supporters would be the ones, they are probably the members who have been with the party for years. Only 32% of them support Corbyn, you would have to assume a large chunk of those members would simply not bother to help the party by knocking on doors and asking people to install a man they don't like as PM.
So, who would step up to fill that gap? The post May 15 Corbynites? How many would actually do the leg work? Would Labour really want people who go to picket Tory party conference to spit at journalists representing the party at the doorstep?
The more you analyse the situation the more fucked up it looks.
travisbickle
Member
That's pretty bias analysis, anyone who joined after May is too lazy to go door knocking and spits at journalists.
Not really. I posted about this a few months ago. A party's membership has both members and activists in it, and the number of activists is generally low but they do astonishing amount of work for the party in elections. Labours current activist base do t like Corbyn, and a lot of the ones I know won't be canvassing for him unlike the last 20+ years.
Now, could Corbyn's supporters fill that gap? Potentially yes, but it's very doubtful. We've seen no evidence of that, and demographically Corbyn's supporters are part of one of the most unreliable parts of the electorate. We've seen in the USA where Sander's supporters turned out for rallies, but didn't turn out on Election Day and beforehand to do the legwork to get the vote out. Plus even if they did - labour will have lost the experience and knowledge that established campaigners have. Which is *huge* - don't underestimate how important local knowledge and experience is for canpaigning.
Overall, it's a very dismal breakdown for labour, and it does highlight some very significant problems for labour in terms of its general election machinery.
Nicktendo86
Member
Yep, Maledict articulates what I meant. I'm not saying all Corbyn supports are nasty scum by the way, but there is no doubt there is a horrible streak in some of the most fiercely loyal supporters who would probably be the ones expected to do canvassing work.
Meanwhile, there is a new Guardian/ICM poll out today;
Tories: 41%
Labour: 27%
UKIP: 13%
Dems: 9%
Greens: 4%
Meanwhile, there is a new Guardian/ICM poll out today;
Tories: 41%
Labour: 27%
UKIP: 13%
Dems: 9%
Greens: 4%
So do you reckon the average Corbyn supporter is the type to vehemently defend him on social media, but probably wouldn't turn up to commit any actual time/work? That's the impression I always got of a lot of Sanders supporters
The conservatives are basically going to have the run of the country for the next decade at least at this rate. Whether you vote conservative or not, lack of a strong opposition is not something I can get behind.
I think Corbyn's supporters are very well meaning people who want the best for the country - but I think the vast majority of them have no idea how hard campaigning is, and the ridiculous legwork required to go door knocking, leafleting and campaigning to get someone elected. It's really hard and tiring, and his supporters demographics indicate that will be an issue. The other problem is that Corbyn's supporters are very much Corbyn supporters - but the party needs to get MPs elected all over the country, it's not a presidential election. I think they will struggle to get new members to give up evenings for weeks on end to support an MP they don't know and might not like.
One thing Sander's supporters did do amazingly well is the online stuff, and hopefully Corbyn's supporters can do the same for Labour because the party's social media work in 2015 was a decade behind the Tories. But online is easy compared to door knocking and turnout operations, and that's what the party needs. Online can only get you so far.
You know, until the last year or so I don't think I realised just how much of the political process in this country depends on people giving up significants amount of their time for free. I guess I always knew on some level, but never appreciated the effort that people put in
Yep, it's huge.
As a counter example, gay marriage and the Tory party is another good example. The country as a whole was in favour, and even in the Tory party it was a fairly close issue. However, it cost Cameron a huge amount of political capital to get it through, and the reason was that the core of activists who do campaigning work were very, very opposed to it. Loudly, in private and public, they made numerous threats about turnout and campaigning support. So even though Youguv found that only 6% of Tory voters counted gay marriage as a vote deciding issue, those 6% counted for a lot because those were the people who get local MPs elected.
Activists are an incredible resource for each party. You can't easily replace them and they work for free. Pissing them off usually comes with a price.
And_Gignac
Member
So Corbyn supporters are rabid fanatics who show in masses to his rallies but they somehow won't get invested in activism during elections? 🤔
Hilarious.
Hilarious.
We've seen exactly this happen in America this cycle - first with Sander's and now with Trump. Rallies are *easy* - spending four hours a night trudging the streets posting leaflets through letterboxes is hard and backbreaking, and only a small % of party members actually do it.
The fact those long term members who have previously done this for the party are significantly against Corbyn as leader is a very worrying thing. Laughing it off is just putting your hands over your eyes. Even if the numbers were replaced, you still lose the knowledge and experience which is vital.
And it's very unlikely the numbers would be replaced.
CyclopsRock
Member
They aren't obviously the same people. (Nb "aren't obviously" isn't the same as "obviously aren't".) The Tories never hold rallies and yet they've won the last 2 elections. Rallies don't tell you much.
travisbickle
Member
When you look at the demographics in the poll, both genders, every age group, all areas of the country are more in support of Corbyn. So the only thing left is to divide by old and new, old is good and new is bad. It's the reason Labour are in this position on the first place.
PipefishUK
Banned
To be fair, with the trains, I think the plan is to just not renew the franchises when they expire.
But who honestly gives a shit about trains with all that's going on? I wish they'd shut up about bloody trains!
Nationalising telecoms, that's hilarious.
The guardian did an interesting numbers crunch on the Youguv poll. Only 56% of Corbyn voters think that he is competent and electable! That matches a lot with what some of the party people I know are saying - people voting Corbyn know he won't win, but he's needed to transform the party and develop a true social movement.
It's depressing that people are happy to write off the next decade to the Tories - but it seems even those doing it understand that are will live with it. One person I was chatting too who is voting Corbyn says she sees him as John the Baptist role - preparing the way for the future leader, whoever that is, and creating the conditions for them to arise. She's a retired Labour Party activist who is personnel friends with brown, mandelson and the rest so hardly your usual Corbyn supporter.
It's depressing that people are happy to write off the next decade to the Tories - but it seems even those doing it understand that are will live with it. One person I was chatting too who is voting Corbyn says she sees him as John the Baptist role - preparing the way for the future leader, whoever that is, and creating the conditions for them to arise. She's a retired Labour Party activist who is personnel friends with brown, mandelson and the rest so hardly your usual Corbyn supporter.
CyclopsRock
Member
But the private companies own all the trains.
Because not winning means you don't get to do *anything* in our system of government, and Corbyn cannot win. Having the fanatical support of 20%% of the population is not good when the rest of the population won't consider voting for you.
MPs have a responsibility to the electorate as a whole, not just to the party. Elections are not won solely off the backs of Labour Party members.
PJV3
Member
That's why I supported him, I was hoping for a bashing of heads and ideas coming out of it. Instead the party just snipes at each other on Twitter. The wing that claims to understand about winning have been the worst, I'm not expecting anything now.
But the vote does count for something they believe in. It is showing that people do support a more left wing approach. Shifting to the right is not an option for some people. It's easy for you, as a Blairite, to say you want the party to move to the right. That is not something Corbyn voters want under any circumstances. They do not want to vote for something they do not believe in and I find it disgusting that people like yourself are looking down on them and calling them lunatics.
PipefishUK
Banned
Most of them are leased. It'd be the same as happened when the East Coast Mainline was temporarily nationalised a while back. Doesn't cost much and made a huge profit for the tax payer.
But anyway - that should be the last thing on the agenda and it's highly unlikely to happen anyway because Corbyn has little to no chance of being PM. It's just all fucked. It hate them all for doing this and basically cementing the Tories in power for the foreseeable future.
I hate Corbyn for being an unrealistic obstinate uncooperative twat and I hate all the rest of them for being selfish wankers unable to give him some support and to see what might have come of it. It's just totally fucked now and there's no going back.
This was an absolute golden opportunity for the Labour Party - the best they would ever ever get, they should have completely walked it. It's a disgrace.
(Sorry, only just found this thread)
No, it shows Labour Party members support a more left wing approach. And in fact it shows that *new* party members support a left win approach - not the people who have carried and worked for the party for the last 20 years.
The wider country absolutely doesn't. Even Scotland doesn't. And the lesson we learnt in the 80s was that failing to provide an alternate and credible vision and government for the country is an absolute disaster, particularly for the groups of people labour want to help the most.
(And I haven't called them lunatics once - but I appreciate the blairite insult. Given how ridiculous that phrase has now become I'm wearing it as a badge of honour).
PJV3
Member
If we had PR then I would be in favour of a hard left approach, we don't so barring a massive disaster of some kind the party has to fight for the centre and shift it hopefully some amount.
I don't care about what the country does or does not support. I am talking about people voting for the person they believe in. You talk about voting for Corbyn in a general election is a wasted away vote. I disagree with that. Voting for somebody you do not believe in is a wasted vote.
Who are the people Labour want to help the most? Because the last Labour government certainly did not put the most vulnerable at the top of the list of people to help.
Your language in this thread when you talk about Corbyn supporters is far from positive. And I never used Blairite as an insult. Interesting you would take it as one though.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I do actually think rallies indicate people willing to do legwork, roughly, it's just legwork doesn't win elections in and of itself. I don't agree with Maledict at all; all the Corbyn supporters I know have been canvassing pretty furiously just for the leadership contest, never mind the general. I've been phoned three times in the last two weeks by JC4PM, and not once by Smith's organisation. It's just no matter how enthusiastically they knock on doors, they're not going to change the public image of Corbyn.
anonymous_abc
Member
I still have a hard time UK politics is real at this stage.
Brexit, May, Corbyn... amazeballs.
Brexit, May, Corbyn... amazeballs.
That 56% figure rather suggests a lot of people aren't voting for Corbyn in any meaningful sense, which is what I suspected, this election has (rather like the EU vote) become a proxy vote for things which won't happen i.e. deselecting MPs, whether that be just the "radical centre" or, y'know, anyone to the right of Mao.
The political anger is very, very real and it's only going to get worse.
I mean isn't this the whole point of Momentum? When it's not bullying and harassing Labour MPs for no reason, I mean.
The political anger is very, very real and it's only going to get worse.
I mean isn't this the whole point of Momentum? When it's not bullying and harassing Labour MPs for no reason, I mean.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yes, as I was saying earlier: Corbyn voters aren't really voting for Corbyn and Smith voters aren't really voting for Smith. For all Maledict complains about only 56% of Corbym voters thinking he can win a general election, only 33% of Smith voters he can win - so they're just as confident the next decade is a Tory one. Neither bloc is voting for either man in and of themselves. Smith and Corbyn just happen to be figureheads for much more powerful political sentiments behind them.
I do think there's a real difference between canvassing for Corbyn and canvassing for a local MP whom you might never have met, or even disagree with.
I also suspect Corbyn's supporters are far better than existing campaigners at telephone work. Again, linking tonSanders - his online and phone banking stuff was brilliant, and far in advance of Clintons. But we know that phone calls are far less effective at turnout and voter opinions that door stop work.
(I do agree with you that in some respect this is a minor point where we are discussing how best to stop the bleeding. The overall damage and picture won't change at this stage, it's way too locked in - and May is so aggressively going after the centre ground I don't actually see any room for labour to come back anyways).
I also suspect Corbyn's supporters are far better than existing campaigners at telephone work. Again, linking tonSanders - his online and phone banking stuff was brilliant, and far in advance of Clintons. But we know that phone calls are far less effective at turnout and voter opinions that door stop work.
(I do agree with you that in some respect this is a minor point where we are discussing how best to stop the bleeding. The overall damage and picture won't change at this stage, it's way too locked in - and May is so aggressively going after the centre ground I don't actually see any room for labour to come back anyways).
You'd probably be best served in a country with proportional representation, because in a FPTP system ideological purity means electoral failure. FPTP parties need to be broad churches as they have to appeal to a wide range of people because the electoral system limits realistic choice.
And who exactly does years of perpetual Tory rule help while Labour flounces off so you can vote your conscience without any caveats?
btw the last Labour government despite my long list of grievances with it, did a hell of a lot of good. A hell of a lot more than Corbyn will ever get the chance to do.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Statements like this are part of the problem, I feel. Most Momentum members I know (and from polling) are twenty-something young women who don't have a bad bone in their body, and are horrified at the abuse many female MPs are receiving. It's a tiny minority perpetuating abuse, and the constant focus on them makes the vast majority of Momentum supporters and Corbyn supporters feel like they are being stereotyped and ignored.
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