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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin

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Par Score

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I wouldn't go so far as idiots, but I think that people who think Corbyn could win an election are either consciously or unconsciously ignoring the realities of the situation. I'd be interested to see an argument for the contrary.

Leave won. Making an appeal to cater to the whims of British democracy holds very little weight at the moment.

If getting an elected with a majority means copying the UKIP manifesto, that still doesn't make it right. I'd rather have a Labour party that stands for values worth a damn than one willing to abandon any and all principles in order to win.
 

Hazzuh

Member
Leave won. Making an appeal to cater to the whims of British democracy holds very little weight at the moment.

If getting an elected with a majority means copying the UKIP manifesto, that still doesn't make it right. I'd rather have a Labour party that stands for values worth a damn than one willing to abandon any and all principles in order to win.

Good thing nobody has ever suggested we "abandon any all and all principles in order to win".
 

Real Hero

Member
Leave won. Making an appeal to cater to the whims of British democracy holds very little weight at the moment.

If getting an elected with a majority means copying the UKIP manifesto, that still doesn't make it right. I'd rather have a Labour party that stands for values worth a damn than one willing to abandon any and all principles in order to win.

But it's how to present, sell and persuade people your ideals are right, corbyn just doesn't seem to have the ability to do do any of that well enough.I wish he did
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Leave won. Making an appeal to cater to the whims of British democracy holds very little weight at the moment.

If getting an elected with a majority means copying the UKIP manifesto, that still doesn't make it right. I'd rather have a Labour party that stands for values worth a damn than one willing to abandon any and all principles in order to win.

The whims of the British public aren't set in stone and entirely unchangeable. They vary over time as politicians do better or worse attempts at persuading the public. There was quite some difference between Hague and Blair, or Brown and Cameron; in both situations the latter was better at persuading the public. At the same time, there is a "stickiness" to opinions; you can't wildly overturn everything the public thinks overnight. The further you are from where the public sits now, the harder the task of persuading them becomes. So you face a game of tiny, tiny steps: you fight for every possible leftwing inch, and over decades, those inches become a yard and then a mile. That's where the principles are: they're at the end of that mile, and you really do have to fight for them. They don't happen overnight.

This process requires two skills: a persuasive and apparently competent leadership, and a policy platform that is precisely as leftwing as the leadership's persuasiveness allows for, and no more (and no less!). Right now, Corbyn is neither persuasive nor competent, and the party's policy platform is far away from the public on most issues. So what you're doing... is conceding everything to the Conservatives. The less appealing Corbyn looks and the further he goes from the centre, the more appealing the Conservatives seem by contrast, the more they win the public mindset, and the less likely we ever are to reach our principles at the end of the mile.

There is, absolutely, a manifesto that Labour can run and win on that is to the left of the Conservatives. We know that because Blair did it. There's almost certainly one to the left of Blair, even, looking at the size of his first two majorities - he was almost certainly too small-c conservative and risk averse. But even if there wasn't... gay marriage, Sure Start, the national minimum wage, devolution, NHS funding increased by 25%, a mass redistribution of wealth, a continued reduction in childhood poverty - these things are all great. No, the Blair and Brown governments were not perfect; far from it - they had an absolutely disgusting stance on disabled welfare, Blair's foreign policy was frankly mad, they didn't do enough to reinvest in reskilling and retraining in economically failing areas. But they were miles better than the Conservatives.

So you're creating this massive false dichotomy where we either have principles and lose or have no principles and win. No: we accept that principles are something you achieve in fifty years, not five, and to implement them, you need to win. And I say this as a pretty ardent socialist.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I agree but still understand people being fed up of their compromise being seen as whole hearted support for a position. To me that still isn't a wasted vote it's just incredibly counter-productive :p

I agree. But those people should therefore have one overriding priority: elect a government offering PR. As soon as we have PR, we can vote as freely and happily as we like; and I will literally be the first and last person out of that battle. But until then? I've been to North Wales. I've seen the old mining communities. They don't need a principle so rigid it never sees a single policy passed; they need help now.
 
so never vote labour? where does this line of thinking take us? Just wait until the tories do something so bad people can feel good about voting for 'blairites' again?

both you and the poster above have moved the goal posts. I called blair scum (which he is) and now my post is turned into never vote for labour and so vote tory then. yeah no.
 
both you and the poster above have moved the goal posts. I called blair scum (which he is) and now my post is turned into never vote for labour and so vote tory then. yeah no.

Well the context of the conversation that's going on here is whether people who like Corbyn should hold their nose and support a Blairite candidate because it's better than the alternative, or should they stick to their principles and "go down" with their head held high. So yeah, you come in and start talking about millions of displaced Iraqis - to what end?
 

Moze

Banned
Yeah, because they are. That's not what you-said-that-I-said though.

"To many people, Blair was great and won elections. To others, he was not, and ruined the party they once believed in. Calling those people crazy and deluded is a disgusting thing to do."

Both issues would be under the heading "The Labour Party in the early 21st Century" in a text book, but beyond that they aren't the same thing, because "No liking Blair" and "Thinking Corbyn is electable" are two non-comparable statements. One being true (or an opinion you hold) has no bearing on the other people true (or you also holding that opinion).



Are we talking about in the General or the leadership election? Either way the answer is "It is", but for different reasons I guess.



I've said before that there are two groups - those who like Corbyn but think he won't win the general, and those who like Corbyn and think that he will. The latter are wrong and silly and politically shrink-wrapped but they obviously have noble aims. It's the former I have a "respect" problem with, because they're the ones willingly and knowingly damning their own party to destruction in the name of purity. They don't actually care about enacting left wing policies because, by their own admission, they know he won't win an election, therefore the Tories will, therefore no left wing policies will get enacted. I have no respect for them.



This is a nonsense comparison, because you're making a comparison between "New Labour" and "Socialist Utopia", or even "New Labour" and "Kinnock". But the reality is that, come 2020 and being at the ballot box, that's not your choice. Your choice is "Labour" and "Tory", and a Labour party lead by Corbyn will absolutely never win. This is the very definition of the perfect being the enemy of the good.



Why?

I will avoid using such language from now on if you do not like it. It does just take things off topic for no reason. I apologise.

Are you suggesting a Labour party that doesn't get into illegal wars, invests in social housing and doesn't create callous welfare policies is unelectable? You are right that this discussion has just turned into a New Labour discussion when it is likely the next Labour government that gets power will be more left than Blair. That's not really enough, though. I can understand why people do not want to let go of a real left leader after the shambles that was Blair. They know that the party will move to the right without Corbyn and that is not something they want.

The country naturally shifted to the centre during the 80s and 90s. Blair capitalised on that and the Tories would have had to do the same to get in and stay in. The approach the Tories were taking during the 80s and 90s would not have worked in the 2000s. They were losing seats long before Blair got in. A lot of the policies that Labour introduced were just natural progression.
 
I will avoid using such language from now on if you do not like it. It does just take things off topic for no reason. I apologise.

Use whatever language you like, just don't put words in peoples' mouths, that's all.

Are you suggesting a Labour party that doesn't get into illegal wars, invests in social housing and doesn't create callous welfare policies is unelectable? You are right that this discussion has just turned into a New Labour discussion when it is likely the next Labour government that gets power will be more left than Blair. That's not really enough, though. I can understand why people do not want to let go of a real left leader after the shambles that was Blair. They know that the party will move to the right without Corbyn and that is not something they want.

No, obviously not. I'm not saying those things were popular. There were others things that were popular, and it's these - along with a healthy dose of media management - that made them electable. And by "media management" I don't mean jumping in to bed with Murdoch, I mean not fucking everything up, ie not sending out press releases after the print deadline, not asking journalists to leave a room so you can reshuffle your chairs and then invite them back in, not having your leader show up to a CND rally in London after the party had elected to back Trident, etc.

The country naturally shifted to the centre during the 80s and 90s. Blair capitalised on that and the Tories would have had to do the same to get in and stay in. The approach the Tories were taking during the 80s and 90s would not have worked in the 2000s. They were losing seats long before Blair got in. A lot of the policies that Labour introduced were just natural progression.

I don't think it's fair to say that the country "naturally" shifted to the centre during the 80's and 90's. Thatcher's rise was a direct kick back against the socialism of the 70's. People had had enough of nationalised industry holding the country (and each other) to ransom, the currency getting bummed etc. There's no smooth way to get out of that - you needed a Thatcher to come along and chop off their heads so that a Blair-like figure could come along and find the "third way" between the two. I don't think he could have "nicely" reduced the power of the unions (part of the reason why Thatcher could is because the Tories didn't rely on the Unions for their party to function).

That's why Cameron and Blair are compared so much - because they're both mid ground but could both only exist because the left and right had their big punch up in the 70's and 80's. Corbyn would be going back 40 years and no one wants that fight again.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
KbLdAfd.jpg

What the fuck.
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Jeremy Corbyn fails to win backing of other UB40

What even the fuck is this. Posing with a band from the 70's as the country heads into a totally fucking dark spiral? Then fucking it up even more by not realising the irony of that groups split?

I want an actual series of the Thick Of It on TV in fiction land, not in the real world and destroying politics for a decade.
 

Randomizer

Member
I know right? He doesn't even know who Ant & Dec are either! He's so clueless. Seriously this slightly embarrassing and entirely superficial incident really reflects badly on his policies and ability to govern.
/s

People who base the electability of a candidate on this sort of shite shouldn't be entitled to vote. But I'm afraid it's over half of the electorate.
 
I know right? He doesn't even know who Ant & Dec are either! He's so clueless. Seriously this slightly embarrassing and entirely superficial incident really reflects badly on his policies and ability to govern.
/s

People who base the electability of a candidate on this sort of shite shouldn't be entitled to vote. But I'm afraid it's over half of the electorate.

C'mon, it's just like, why is he doing this. Doesn't score points with anyone besides his current fanbase who'll be all "wow, that quirky old Corbyn" (like when he came on The Last Leg in a pimp as outfit which was admittedly fantastic).

Shit like this, coupled with his fuck ups like going along to some meetup on goddamn Cuba on the result of the referendum (Or was it his attempted removal, I forget?)

You may not like politicking, but if the man can't get that aspect of his job looking presentable, how the hell will people see him as competent enough to run the country?
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I know right? He doesn't even know who Ant & Dec are either! He's so clueless. Seriously this slightly embarrassing and entirely superficial incident really reflects badly on his policies and ability to govern.
/s

People who base the electability of a candidate on this sort of shite shouldn't be entitled to vote. But I'm afraid it's over half of the electorate.

In a month where NHS leaks reveal its heading for massive underfunding and a potentially huge downgrade, where May is getting buried by the international community as Brexit continues to drag Britain under sea level and the Human Rights Act faces bye bye...

...Corbyn has tried to fake not being able to get a seat on a busy train and call a press conference about his new friendship with half of UB40. Oh and announce a completely impossible Arts funding initiative. It's hard to think of a more ineffective Opposition Party leader because he fits the perfect himbo parody personification to a fucking tee.

These are the snafus he is making when not even under the burden of governing an entire fucking country. What majority would even dream of handing such an idiot the keys to the castle other than fucking vacuous slacktivists addicted to webvote fuckdumping internet popularity polls?
 

Colin.

Member
I know right? He doesn't even know who Ant & Dec are either! He's so clueless. Seriously this slightly embarrassing and entirely superficial incident really reflects badly on his policies and ability to govern.
/s

At this point, I'm just waiting on articles appearing in this thread about the man breathing too loudly. I wonder how well he tackles a bacon sandwich.
 

Jackpot

Banned
It's PMQs tomorrow.

Do any Corbyn supporters think it's too much to ask for him to tackle US & Japan slapping the UK down or the NHS funding issue & strikes? Things that should be slam dunks for any opposition party.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
INT. PRESS CONFERENCE HALL - DAY

Corbyn stands before the collected press at a podium in front of a garish giant powerpoint screen that depicts well known supermarket logos with ironic "price slash" icons slapped on top of them.

CORBYN: I've called you all here today to announce under my new policies, supermarkets will be forced to break up, become less 'super' and just become mere markets again. Our country's enfeebled will no longer have to endure the indignity of eating poorly made Economy priced products or dream of 'tasting the difference'. Such as jams. I myself will make a wonderful preservative to be stocked by newly government owned and run stores. "Jezza's Jam".

Powerpoint changes to a Jezza's Jam logo drawn in crayon with a little S.M signature at the bottom. Corbyn is fucking beaming.

CORBYN: I made it. Myself. Me. I've also convinced Mr Kipling here to never make another cake ever again. Only ethical locally sourced produce on British shelves please.

The camera focusses on a business man poorly tied to a chair with what appears to be incredibly shit wool. He isn't struggling and looks like he could walk away at any time.

MR KIPLING: I tried to explain to Mr Corbyn here that there is no Mr Kipling and I am just simply a figurehead that...

CORBYN: ENOUGH FROM YOU, CAKE-DEMON. Now, are there any questions about this brilliant strategy from the filthy, serpent-tongued press? Hmm?

PRESS CUNT #1: While we all know you have a Christ complex, how exactly would you be able to make enough jam to feed the entire coun-

CORBYN: I'm sure I could scale up my current process quite considerably. Also, HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?! Any more?

*lots of hands are raised*

CORBYN: Didn't think so. I bid you... adieu!!

*Corbyn throws a smoke bomb onto the ground and disappears entirely, baffling the audience*
 

Ieu

Member
INT. PRESS CONFERENCE HALL - DAY

Corbyn stands before the collected press at a podium in front of a garish banner that depicts well known supermarket logos with ironic "price slash" icons slapped on top of them.

CORBYN: I've called you all here today to announce under my new policies, supermarkets will be forced to break up, become less 'super' and just become mere markets again. Our country's enfeebled will no longer have to endure the indignity of eating poorly made Economy priced products or dream of 'tasting the difference'. Such as jams. I myself will make a wonderful preservative to be stocked by newly government owned and run stores. "Jezza's Jam". I made it. Myself. Me. I've also convinced Mr Kipling here to never make another cake ever again. Only ethical locally produce on British shelves please.

The camera focusses on a business man poorly tied to a chair with what appears to be incredibly shit wool. He isn't struggling and looks like he could walk away at any time.

MR KIPLING: I tried to explain to Mr Corbyn here that there is no Mr Kipling and I am just simply a figurehead that...

CORBYN: ENOUGH FROM YOU, CAKE-DEMON. Now, are there any questions about this brilliant strategy from the filthy, serpent-tongued press? Hmm?

PRESS CUNT #1: While we all know you have a Christ complex, how exactly would you be able to make enough jam to feed the entire coun-

CORBYN: I'm sure I could scale up my current process quite considerably. Also, HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?! Any more?

*lots of hands are raised*

CORBYN: Didn't think so. I bid you... adieu!!

*Corbyn throws a smoke bomb onto the ground and disappears entirely, baffling the audience*

Corbyn: Pie and Beans, I'm not sure this is a great idea...
 
Reverse Tory spending cuts on school arts funding is now a "completely impossible" initiative. Ha, what a sad indictment on the current thinking within politics. Poor school kids shouldn't take drama class, why do we need working class actors?
 

Tak3n

Banned
Reverse Tory spending cuts on school arts funding is now a "completely impossible" initiative. Ha, what a sad indictment on the current thinking within politics. Poor school kids shouldn't take drama class, why do we need working class actors?

don't have a issue with this, or media studies in fact any of the nonsense stuff that wont help you a jot when in the real world...

now do courses that would harness the creative types minds into employable skills, Graphic Design etc
 

hodgy100

Member
don't have a issue with this, or media studies in fact any of the nonsense stuff that wont help you a jot when in the real world...

now do courses that would harness the creative types minds into employable skills, Graphic Design etc

There's quite a bit you can do with arts and media studies degrees.

https://www.prospects.ac.uk/careers-advice/what-can-i-do-with-my-degree/media-studies
http://www.cityam.com/blog/13848552...highest-employed-after-those-medicine-degrees

it's just a lower grade career in general. but claiming it doesn't help them get a job is just being ignorant to the job prospects of today's market.
 

Sheentak

Member
Also not everyone is smart enough for stem and with traditional working class jobs slowly going away we might need a bunch of working class actors
 

PJV3

Member
This thread is weird, a labour party thread asking if the peasants should have opportunities beyond being a drudge.
 
It's just another area that the poor aren't allowed to partake in: sports (outside of football), the arts, media, politics ...restrict opportunity and access to these areas and allow the small percentage of privately educated to do those. Let the rich play the roles on tv, make the art, write the news stories, go to the olympics, run the country.

Tesco is paying for your mathematics class at this free academy so you're going to damn well work at the checkout of the local branch when you leave here.
 

daviyoung

Banned
If Britain fancies itself a meritocracy there is no difference between a working class actor than a working class engineer. Telling poor people they should STEM is the same as telling them to 'get a trade'. You're no good for anything else.
 

Tak3n

Banned
May is destroying Corbyn....cmon man grow some balls, I am all for serious discussion but PMQ's was always about drama...

May quoting Corbyns twitter feed replies is pure trolling
 
We could be in for an early election... Fixed Term Parliament act to be repealed.

https://twitter.com/xtophercook/status/773293664852406272

Nah it probably won't happen still. Either way good to see we're election ready in Labour.

That is a private member's bill introduced in the Lords - not a government initiative. It needs to go past committee then readings - which it might do, sure - but it will cause snap election fever if it gets anywhere near close to being voted through the commons - and then it will die in the Lords.

Repealing the FTPA would take too long for it to be considered 'a snap'. :)
 

Jezbollah

Member
May is destroying Corbyn....cmon man grow some balls, I am all for serious discussion but PMQ's was always about drama...

May quoting Corbyns twitter feed replies is pure trolling

Again, Angus Robertson being the person to put May on the spot.

I like him.
 
Yeah they are usually better

Right.

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Or at least I think he's working class. But for sure:

1605vegas0_1402888c.jpg

All I know is - he's hard. And no matter how hard you are, there's always someone harder.

Ken Loach films wouldn't really be the same with Tom Hiddleston and Benedict Cumberbatch playing a joiner from Barnsley.

I'm not sure our education policy should be aimed primarily at supplying Ken Loach with actors.

My big issue, I think - and I say this as someone who works on quite a lot of film sets, albeit mostly for advertising - is that the majority of people on set are working class. It's your grips and your gaffers and your catering staff and makeup and physical effects and all that lark. Pointing at how there aren't many working class actors seems, to me, to be honing in on a hugely niche symptom of a wider problem, which is that acting has an incredibly low hit rate. Becoming an actor is difficult and hardly anyone that tries to do it succeeds. It's up there with being a professional footballer or grime artist. As such, only people who can afford to basically not work for however many years it takes to "get noticed" can afford to do it, not to mention those in middle class backgrounds having far less social pressure not to do it. If we want more films like Ken Loach's, we need more Ken Loach's and they aren't made in drama class, they're made in Literature classes (or, at least, their understanding of the craft is).

Basically there are a ton of well paid, less risky, less-likely-to-give-you-a-cocaine-addiction-if-that's-considered-a-bad-thing, more transferable jobs in the film and TV biz that are already serving the working classes well, more than the middle and upper classes in fact. If we're going to go about setting a floor on how many hours people spend putting on plays at school, I'd rather we were put that same time into at least having the option of studying the sort of skills that are far less risky, far more transferable and far more likely to actually lead to a job than the 1 in 10,000 chance you'll be the next Phil Mitchell.
 
That is a private member's bill introduced in the Lords - not a government initiative. It needs to go past committee then readings - which it might do, sure - but it will cause snap election fever if it gets anywhere near close to being voted through the commons - and then it will die in the Lords.

Repealing the FTPA would take too long for it to be considered 'a snap'. :)
Aye - as the tweet thread shows, it was initially tagged as a govt bill by mistake.
 
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