Support NeoGAF

[bishopcruz]

it really is weird that this season is the one that won everything, considering how firggen bad so much of it was. I mean it was the weakest by far. And the fact that bad pussy is in an episode that won for writing, I just do not understand.

 

[Steelyuhas]

George made a blog post:

Back from the Emmy Awards in LA.

A night to remember.

GAME OF THRONES set a new record for number of wins by a series in a single year. Eight last week, and four more on Sunday. That's twelve.

Pretty impressive haul when you line them up like that.

The previous record was nine, set by WEST WING.

Anyway... I will have more to say about the Emmys and all that, but we've only been home a few hours, and I'm still pretty tired (celebrating is hard work, and so is travel) so it will have to wait until tomorrow. I do have more to say, and a lot of people to thank.

For now, let it suffice to say that the Emmy looks very good in my TV room, and while it IS an honor just to be nominated (as I have been, six times before), it's even cooler to win.

And a post from Bryan Cogman:

Hi everyone,

Okay this will be my last Emmy related post, as we all need to get back to reality. But I did want to express a few things I’ve been feeling since our win a couple of nights ago.

Because, by some stroke of amazing good fortune, I get to be called “Producer” on GoT, I was able to take home one of these lovely gold (and very sharp and heavy) statues, which, of course, I’ll treasure.

But this win for Outstanding Drama Series belongs to so many people – the hardworking, endlessly creative, extraordinary artists who make up our crew and cast, past and present.
So this is for people like Lynda Marshall, our Dragon crew script supervisor who has been with us since the beginning and keeps the actors on book(or sort of on book in some cases). It’s for people like Lisa Trinder, our video playback goddess, who has set such an incredible example for her daughter that she’s pursuing a career in film too – ensuring generations of Trinders helping entertain the world. It’s for Brian “Props” and James-y and Mark Lowry. It’s for Sean Savage, Dave Morgan, and the best camera crew in the business. It’s for Robbie Boake, who finds our beautiful locations. It’s for producers Annick Wolkan and Olly Butler – two people who work harder than perhaps anyone on the planet. It’s for Helen Sloan, whose still photos of our cast captivate fans the world over. It’s for Alanna Riddell Bond, our tireless script coordinator (and my beloved former office mate). It's for David Hill -- the only S5 writer not on that stage on Sunday (and he deserved to be).

These are but a handful of names – I could go on and on for days and days about our Belfast crew/production team, Dragon/Wolf units, and the equally fine crews in Croatia and Spain. These artists are a shining example of excellence to the entire film/TV industry.

And as proud as I am of Season Five, for me, this was a win for all four seasons that came before and the wonderful artists who worked with us in the past. So this belongs to Sean and Kit and Michelle and Rich and Jack and Charles and... man, we killed off a lot of actors! It belongs to writer Vanessa Taylor. It belongs directors to like Alik Sakharov and Alex Graves and Alan Taylor and Michelle MacLaren and Timmy Van Patten and so many others who made the show what it is…

My heart is full. I’m hugely proud of all you. I’m humbled to work with you and learn from you. And the only thing better than winning this (again, very sharp and heavy) gold statue is that I get to return to Belfast and keep making this special show with you all.

With gratitude,
B

 

[biosnake20]

Wow... if you ever want to "come down" after an Emmy win... read the Twitter feed of someone you thought was a friend. #stayclassyuknowwho

Pretty sure he's talking about Linda. She's talking shit about GoT like there's no tomorrow.

Just a few for example:

@LaceUpBearDown Yeah, that piece of pandering shit.

@dancinghorse That show also made my head explode by simply being very, very bad in general. It was painful in all regards.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Pedro just gets around the ladies pretty easily

Yep, that's one of the showrunners of Game of Thrones all right.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Yep, that's one of the showrunners of Game of Thrones all right.

No fun allowed

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Pretty sure he's talking about Linda. She's talking shit about GoT like there's no tomorrow.

Just a few for example:

That second quote is referring to The Bastard Executioner on FX.

 

[Ogimachi]

lol

 

[kirblar]

Developed a new fetish during a youtube GOT theories binge, watching people almost claw the way through R+L=J and other GOT theories is so entertaining.
This one didn't start reading the books until later and he misses in the end, still impressive, begins~ 29 minutes in: https://youtu.be/pH6fVsYkO8s?t=1745

Only the guy to his left has read the books and graduated from RLJ, he does his best not give it away.

There was an aftershow vid where a show watcher figures it out on camera, can't remember which show/what episode it was though.

 

[biosnake20]

lol

LOL

 

[NeoGiff]

Guys, something has been bothering me recently, and it was exacerbated today by that piece that went up on Watchers about diversity.

I'm a young, healthy, straight, white, Irish male (and I make no apology for this - it's who I am), and I couldn't give a shit about the "race issues" and political correctness people seem so obsessed about in various forms of media. I have discussed this at length with a close friend in the film industry. He also happens to be white, straight and male (he's English). We both feel the same way, which is to say we're completely baffled and angry at the over-the-top, white knight-esque reactions to casting/non-casting of actors who aren't white.

I'll put it bluntly. The way we (and pretty much most of Western Europe) see it is that it's the creator's own world, and whether they do or don't adhere to historical inspiration is up to them, and everyone else can fuck off and stop inserting their own self-righteous opinions. This isn't to say that a work can't be criticised - I'm on record here of absolutely laying into the show.

Does this make me racist? No it doesn't. Obviously I'm all for equality. But this unhealthy obsession with non-white people being cast in a pseudo-historical setting when they have absolutely no business appearing there other than appeasing a few uptight people needs to end.

I think in a broad strokes, Europeans aren't as defensive and quick to anger on these issues as Americans are (I may have just stepped on a landmine, but the point is worth considering).

What do you think?

Edit: I also saw an inference that the reason people dislike the Sand Snakes is because they're the first major characters in the show who aren't stereotypically white/Western. Despite not actually being true (hello Oberyn), points of view like this are exceedingly ignorant. I don't hate the Sand Snakes because they're not white. I hate them because they're terribly written, terribly acted, and feel jarringly out of place with the rest of the show. But apparently that's just an excuse for my racism. Oh well.

 

[Dysun]

Would have been nice for the show to win when it deserved it, not when Breaking Bad exited the stage and they produced a mediocre 10 hours of content

 

[Famassu]

But this unhealthy obsession with non-white people being cast in a pseudo-historical setting when they have absolutely no business appearing there other than appeasing a few uptight people needs to end.

Uhh.. No business? People of colour existed in medieval times. Maybe not in every small village, but especially along trade routes & trade cities.

I'm from what is probably one of the "whitest" countries in Europe and I do think equality issues are extremely important and that it's a good way to promote that equality by trying to put characters of all types & from all backgrounds into our fiction.

 

[NeoGiff]

Uhh.. No business? People of colour existed in medieval times. Maybe not in every small village, but especially along trade routes & trade cities.

I'm from what is probably one of the "whitest" countries in Europe and I do think equality issues are extremely important and that it's a good way to promote that equality by trying to put characters of all types & from all backgrounds into our fiction.

Yes, I know that. But shoving people of colour in and drawing attention to them just for the sake of showing them (which seems to be what people want, because making a member of a Westerosi family non-white would be simply insane) sort of defeats the purpose. Subconsciously, the brain knows what this fictional continent (Westeros) is based on. Seeing a few black people walking around Winterfell, for example, would be wrong in the context.

 

[Famassu]

Yes, I know that. But shoving people of colour in and drawing attention to them just for the sake of showing them (which seems to be what people want, because making a member of a Westerosi family non-white would be simply insane) sort of defeats the purpose. Subconsciously, the brain knows what this fictional continent (Westeros) is based on. Seeing a few black people walking around Winterfell, for example, would be wrong in the context.

Has this series done any of that? No? So why such an outbreak over a hypothetical non-issue? No series that I can think of has done anything of the sort. It's the racists morons who draw attention to originally white characters being made black.

 

[Isak_Borg]

Has this series done any of that? No? So why such an outbreak over a hypothetical non-issue? No series that I can think of has done anything of the sort. It's the racists morons who draw attention to originally white characters being made black.

I'm always amazed that people can accept dragons, shadow babies, giants but god help us if there is a minority in the background or featured on the show.

 

[NeoGiff]

Has this series done any of that? No? So why such an outbreak over a hypothetical non-issue? No series that I can think of has done anything of the sort. It's the racists morons who draw attention to originally white characters being made black.

An article regarding race representation in the show went up on Watchers today, and the reactions are varied. I feel slightly alienated as my opinion differs from some of the staff, so, as I said in my original post, I'm just raising the issue in here to see what the regular GOT posters think.

As to your second point, I'm adamant that if Ned Stark was black, it'd be stupid and would be to the detriment of the show. Similarly, if Kunta Kinte in Roots was white, it would also be stupid and to the detriment of the show.

 

[Isak_Borg]

An article regarding race representation in the show went up on Watchers today, and the reactions are varied. I feel slightly alienated as my opinion differs from some of the staff, so, as I said in my original post, I'm just raising the issue in here to see what the regular GOT posters think.

As to your second point, I'm adamant that if Ned Stark was black, it'd be stupid and would be to the detriment of the show. Similarly, if Kunta Kinte in Roots was white, it would also be stupid and to the detriment of the show.

Ned Stark's racial identity isn't integral to the character Kunta Kinte's is.

 

[NeoGiff]

Ned Stark's racial identity isn't integral to the character Kunta Kinte's is.

It's integral to the setting, social status, pseudo-time period, and culture in which he lives.

 

[Isak_Borg]

It's integral to the setting, social status, pseudo-time period, and culture in which he lives.

His race has nothing to do with any of those things.

Social status in the Westoros isn't based on race but family history.

Again it's a show with shadow babies, dragons, giants and other magical shenanigans. I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept someone of color as the head of a powerful house in this setting.

 

[kirblar]

Witcher thread indicates people who don't get it will never get it.

 

[NeoGiff]

His race has nothing to do with any of those things.

Social status in the Westoros isn't based on race but family history.

Again it's a show with shadow babies, dragons, giants and other magical shenanigans. I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept someone of color as the head of a powerful house in this setting.

I'm not even going to bother.

Witcher thread indicates people who don't get it will never get it.

I love the way race is handled in the Witcher universe, and it's an interesting comparison. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me, though?

 

[Isak_Borg]

Witcher thread indicates people who don't get it will never get it.

What is there to get?

Not saying the creators are racist or that there is any problem with the setting but I don't think having people of color in these properties is unrealistic. These are fantasy universes created by an individual and don't have to adhere to any racial dynamic found in the real world.

I'm sorry it ruins folks sense of immersion to see folks of color in these settings but there isn't any reason they shouldn't be.

 

[NeoGiff]

What is there to get?

Not saying the creators are racist or that there is any problem with the setting but I don't think having people of color in these properties is unrealistic. These are fantasy universes created by an individual and don't have to adhere to any racial dynamic found in the real world.

I'm sorry it ruins folks sense of immersion to see folks of color in these settings but there isn't any reason they shouldn't be.

But this is factually wrong when you consider that the individual has striven to base the setting in question on a very specific time and place in history, along with keeping the authenticity of many of the features that come with said setting.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

I'm a young, healthy, straight, white, Irish male (and I make no apology for this - it's who I am), and I couldn't give a shit about the "race issues" and political correctness people seem so obsessed about in various forms of media.

Has anybody ever wanted you to apologise for any of those things?

Does this make me racist? No it doesn't. Obviously I'm all for equality

Are you in any position to determine what's racist or not as a white person? Further still; are you obviously for equality when you deem anybody of another race arguing for more diversity in fictional worlds as self-righteous? When you're saying you don't "give a shit about the 'race issues' in media" when white washing in media is ubiquitous.

Also, out of curiosity how is talking to a white friend who agrees with everything you're saying a debate?

Given the article in question doesn't say much beyond that there might be a racial diversity issue in this series given there are lots of non-white folks around but none of them are important I don't see why you'd get riled up about it.

 

[Tiktaalik]

His race has nothing to do with any of those things.

Social status in the Westoros isn't based on race but family history.

Again it's a show with shadow babies, dragons, giants and other magical shenanigans. I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept someone of color as the head of a powerful house in this setting.

You should pick up World of Ice and Fire. The rise of various plots against the Targaryen kings is closely related to anti-Dornish prejudice.

 

[kirblar]

What is there to get?

Not saying the creators are racist or that there is any problem with the setting but I don't think having people of color in these properties is unrealistic. These are fantasy universes created by an individual and don't have to adhere to any racial dynamic found in the real world.

I'm sorry it ruins folks sense of immersion to see folks of color in these settings but there isn't any reason they shouldn't be.

The regions and peoples of GoT and other similar Euro-centric fantasy works are often stand-ins for existing cultures. Starks = Scotland, Dorne = Spain, etc. If you are going for that type of direct analogue and cultural reference, yes, it is going to be weird if the world looks like downtown LA or my high school lunchroom. Witcher is based pretty explicitly on a long history of white on white racism. (And is made by people in an all-white country.)

If you're creating a world without those analogues, like Dragon Age, those issues don't apply.

 

[Vyer]

Yes, I know that. But shoving people of colour in and drawing attention to them just for the sake of showing them (which seems to be what people want, because making a member of a Westerosi family non-white would be simply insane) sort of defeats the purpose. Subconsciously, the brain knows what this fictional continent (Westeros) is based on. Seeing a few black people walking around Winterfell, for example, would be wrong in the context.

It's fiction. Fantasy at that. What it may be 'based on' and the 'pseudo historical' angle is irrelevant, really. Particularly (and people struggle with this too) since these are another level of adaptation beyond the books and the show creators have a bit of their own freedom to tell the story the way they want. There's no good reason that (not that this happens) every character has to be one race.

As for the rest....minorities and others try to call for diversity because history has shown as that if they don't, it doesn't happen. This is just fact. You may be a 'straight white irish male' (and that's perfectly fine) and as such don't really have a reference point for seeing a lack of representation in the world, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A bit of empathy and understanding goes a long way.

And it's perfectly fine to criticise the sand snakes, because they were generally poor characters. It's less ok to equate minorities striving for representation and diversity in the world as 'just trying to shove people of color in'.


Not even going to touch the 'kunta/ned stark' analogy. yeesh.

 

[Isak_Borg]

But this is factually wrong when you consider that the individual has striven to base the setting in question on a very specific time and place in history, along with keeping the authenticity of many of the features that come with said setting.

Yes, I remember that time we were attacked by white walkers and dragons roamed the sky.

I get what GRRM is riffing on and not asking him to change his fictional world. I'm amazed that you get your jimmies rustled when anyone brings up the fact that it's a fictional universe that doesn't have to adhere to real world history.

it's fantasy which means you can make it anything you want it to be.

 

[Famassu]

An article regarding race representation in the show went up on Watchers today, and the reactions are varied. I feel slightly alienated as my opinion differs from some of the staff, so, as I said in my original post, I'm just raising the issue in here to see what the regular GOT posters think.

As to your second point, I'm adamant that if Ned Stark was black, it'd be stupid and would be to the detriment of the show. Similarly, if Kunta Kinte in Roots was white, it would also be stupid and to the detriment of the show.

If Ned Stark was black but the rest of the people in his family (predecessors & offspring) were white, sure, that'd be dumb. If they all were black yet everyone else around them were white, that'd also be somewhat eyebrow-raising. Black people in general being in Winterfell would be maybe somewhat unlikely, but still not completely impossible.

Still, they haven't done that, so it's kind of pointless to bring up such a hypothetical situation as if someone is doing anything like that or has ever done anything like that. If anything, whitewashing is a massive problem in TV & Cinema. Characters who should never be white are made white just because.

 

[Isak_Borg]

You should pick up World of Ice and Fire. The rise of various plots against the Targaryen kings is closely related to anti-Dornish prejudice.

Yeah, Dornish prejudice is based on the fact that they got privileges none of the other houses got. Basically the Dornish stood tall, said fuck you and ended up getting everything they want.

Wasn't based on race but customs and the fact that they got concessions and married into the family.

UNBENT, UNBOWED, UNBROKEN!

 

[NeoGiff]

It's fiction. Fantasy at that. What it may be 'based on' and the 'pseudo historical' angle is irrelevant, really. Particularly (and people struggle with this too) since these are another level of adaptation beyond the books and the show creators have a bit of their own freedom to tell the story the way they want. There's no good reason that (not that this happens) every character has to be one race.

As for the rest....minorities and others try to call for diversity because history has shown as that if they don't, it doesn't happen. This is just fact. You may be a 'straight white irish male' (and that's perfectly fine) and as such don't really have a reference point for seeing a lack of representation in the world, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A bit of empathy and understanding goes a long way.

And it's perfectly fine to criticise the sand snakes, because they were generally poor characters. It's less ok to equate minorities striving for representation and diversity in the world as 'just trying to shove people of color in'.


Not even going to touch the 'kunta/ned stark' analogy. yeesh.

In a way (although I'm not comparing this in any way to representation of black people) I do, as Irish people have a history of being portrayed poorly in movies and on TV.

And yes, that Kunta analogy was terrible. Perhaps a better one would be that time John Wayne played Genghis Khan.

Yes, I remember that time we were attacked by white walkers and dragons roamed the sky.

I get what GRRM is riffing on and not asking him to change his fictional world. I'm amazed that you get your jimmies rustled when anyone brings up the fact that it's a fictional universe that doesn't have to adhere to real world history.

it's fantasy which means you can make it anything you want it to be.

You seem unable to differentiate between something taking place in a world as opposed to being based on a world.

If Ned Stark was black but the rest of the people in his family (predecessors & offspring) were white, sure, that'd be dumb. If they all were black yet everyone else around them were white, that'd also be somewhat eyebrow-raising. Black people in general being in Winterfell would be maybe somewhat unlikely, but still not completely impossible.

Still, they haven't done that, so it's kind of pointless to bring up such a hypothetical situation as if someone is doing anything like that or has ever done anything like that. If anything, whitewashing is a massive problem in TV & Cinema. Characters who should never be white are made white just because.

Good post. Basically, I just wrote out my thoughts without even thinking about a coherent point to make. My original post is pretty much just me rambling without thinking about what I was saying. I'm not taking back the essence of it, though.

 

[kirblar]

If you play MTG, the most recent block, Khans of Tarkir, had 5 factions based on continental Asia - Mongolia, China, Arabia, India, Russia. For the majority of the cards, you got the associated ethnicity with that region when displaying a human character. Keeping everything associated with a region steady when you're doing these direct analogues helps keep the audience from getting pulled out of it.

An earlier set, Shards of Alara, also featured 5 worlds. But in that set all 5 were brand new and not direct analogues of any specific culture or place. So you had a rainbow spectrum of people in each world (well, except for the zombie one, cause decayed flesh is decayed flesh) because they weren't trying to key off any specific historical place, only general feels. (High Chivalry World, Metal world, Jungle World...other Jungle world.)

 

[mantidor]

Edit: I also saw an inference that the reason people dislike the Sand Snakes is because they're the first major characters in the show who aren't stereotypically white/Western. Despite not actually being true (hello Oberyn), points of view like this are exceedingly ignorant. I don't hate the Sand Snakes because they're not white. I hate them because they're terribly written, terribly acted, and feel jarringly out of place with the rest of the show. But apparently that's just an excuse for my racism. Oh well.

As someone also from outside the US (and not white and not straight if that makes any difference ) I feel this is a can of worms I'm afraid to open, but basically I agree with you. I'm not surprised at all people threw in race into the disaster that was the sand snakes even though the thought never even crossed my head until I read your post.

I'm always amazed that people can accept dragons, shadow babies, giants but god help us if there is a minority in the background or featured on the show.

"But the show has dragons!" its a terrible excuse to justify anything. Many, probably even you, would complain if suddenly Westeros gets flying carpets. Or robots. The world has been meticulously detailed already anyway.

 

[Isak_Borg]

As someone also from outside the US (and not white and not straight if that makes any difference ) I feel this is a can of worms I'm afraid to open, but basically I agree with you. I'm not surprised at all people threw in race into the disaster that was the sand snakes even though the thought never even crossed my head until I read your post.



"But the show has dragons!" its a terrible excuse to justify anything. Many, probably even you, would complain if suddenly Westeros gets flying carpets. Or robots. The world has been meticulously detailed already anyway.

Didn't realize people of color are world breaking in the ASOIAF world.

I was just mentioning that it's something that has fantastical elements and we already have a house led by people of color, so having other POC roaming around wouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

[Ogimachi]

Doesn't matter what people think of GRRM's world, it is what it is. Make of it what you will, but it shouldn't be twisted to try and fix something it has nothing to do with.
First Men, Andals and Rhoynar are not black, other ethnicites in the world he created are.

The show already changed the races of multiple characters and ignored the setting in the process, this whole discussion is very silly.

 

[NeoGiff]

Doesn't matter what people think of GRRM's world, it is what it is. Make of it what you will, but it shouldn't be twisted to try and fix something it has nothing to do with.
First Men, Andals and Rhoynar are not black, other ethnicites in the world he created are.

The show already changed the races of multiple characters and ignored the setting in the process, this whole discussion is very silly.

You've succinctly written what I was trying to, and I've looked like an idiot in the process. I agree with everything in your post, and nothing more really needs to be said. It's artistic vision - take it or leave it.

 

[Vyer]

In a way (although I'm not comparing this in any way to representation of black people) I do, as Irish people have a history of being portrayed poorly in movies and on TV..

Sure, and that sucks. But even that would be an improvement. A system that denies a race opportunities is even worse than that. At least the color of your skin doesn't remove your chances of ever getting the job.

Doesn't matter what people think of GRRM's world, it is what it is. Make of it what you will, but it shouldn't be twisted to try and fix something it has nothing to do with.
First Men, Andals and Rhoynar are not black, other ethnicites in the world he created are.

Then hardly nothing can ever change. They can all be 'artistic visions', or have 'nothing to do with it'. Those outs will always be there.

The show already changed the races of multiple characters and ignored the setting in the process, this whole discussion is very silly.

Agreed. Which further strains the arguments involving what it's 'based on' or any 'pseudo history'.

 

[Ogimachi]

You've succinctly written what I was trying to, and I've looked like an idiot in the process. I agree with everything in your post, and nothing more really needs to be said. It's artistic vision - take it or leave it.

People always feel there's more to be said when the work is popular, and somehow a lot of people think it has political responsibilities because of it.

Sure, and that sucks. But even that would be an improvement. A system that denies a race opportunities is even worse than that. At least the color of your skin doesn't remove your chances of ever getting the job.



Then hardly nothing can ever change. They can all be 'artistic visions', or have 'nothing to do with it'. Those outs will always be there.



Agreed. Which further strains the arguments involving what it's 'based on' or any 'pseudo history'.

It's his creation, it's not meant to be changed to fulfill the wishes of others, let alone for social "justice" purposes. There's no justice to be had by changing the ethnicites of characters in the ASOIAF setting.
Summer islanders are black. Starks are not summer islanders, therefore it makes no sense to cast a black actor as Ned Stark. That's the world GRRM created, take it for what it's worth. Assassin's Creed is 'pseudo history', ASOIAF isn't. There's a big difference.

It doesn't strain the argument, it makes the unnecessary controversy even more pointless because the showrunners are going out of their way to include people of colour even where they shouldn't.

 

[biosnake20]

David and Dan at the Emmy's:

Q: Can this last beyond 8 years [Benioff shakes his head immediately], can this go a decade?
BENIOFF: No way in hell.
WEISS: Nope.

Q: Why is that?
BENIOFF: Because we know what the end is and we’re getting — rapidly approaching it. So we’re gonna finish Season 6, and then another however many hours, but not even close to season 10.
…
Q: So you’re gonna follow the books religiously and then you’re out.
BENIOFF: [laughs]
WEISS: Didn’t say that. Didn’t say that.
…
Q: What about a film?
WEISS: A film? That’s a good idea.
BENIOFF: I like that idea.

 

[Vyer]

People always feel there's more to be said when the work is popular, and somehow a lot of people think it has political responsibilities because of it.

It's his creation, it's not meant to be changed to fulfill the wishes of others, let alone for social "justice" purposes. There's no justice to be had by changing the ethnicites of characters in the ASOIAF setting.
Summer islanders are black. Starks are not summer islanders, therefore it makes no sense to cast a black actor as Ned Stark. That's the world GRRM created, take it for what it's worth. Assassin's Creed is 'pseudo history', ASOIAF isn't. There's a big difference.

It doesn't strain the argument, it makes the unnecessary controversy even more pointless because the showrunners are going out of their way to include people of colour even where they shouldn't.

Adaptations throughout history exist for a multitude of reasons. And often they include very different versions from the original creation. This is a thing that happens. It is a thing that has always happened. I don't know where you're getting your 'the creation is never meant to be changed' rule from.

You don't have to make an adaptation to meet a 'justice' or controversy or whatever else you're talking about. Sometimes just not making the old mistakes regarding diversity while doing your project is simply just that. It's progress.

I'm not exactly agreeing with GoT diversity problems, only commenting on the larger points Neo brought up.

 

[Isak_Borg]

Adaptations throughout history exist for a multitude of reasons. And often they include very different versions from the original creation. This is a thing that happens. It is a thing that has always happened. I don't know where you're getting you're 'the creation is never meant to be changed' rule from.

You don't have to make an adaptation to meet a 'justice' or controversy or whatever else you're talking about. Sometimes just not making the old mistakes regarding diversity while doing your project is simply just that. It's progress.

I'm not exactly agreeing with GoT diversity problems, only commenting on the larger points Neo brought up.

I agree with you but wouldn't call what GRRM did mistakes.

He created the universe the way he wanted to and D&D are modifying certain aspects to fit what they think works.

Anyways, we can all agree we love the series/TV show(some of us!) and we should all be grateful that something like this is reaching a wider audience.

 

[Vyer]

I agree with you but wouldn't call what GRRM did mistakes.

He created the universe the way he wanted to and D&D are modifying certain aspects to fit what they think works.

Anyways, we can all agree we love the series/TV show(some of us!) and we should all be grateful that something like this is reaching a wider audience.

Oh absolutely. That's why I said I was just referring to the larger point that was presented. And talking more about adaptations of material as time moves on.

 

[Iksenpets]

His race has nothing to do with any of those things.

Social status in the Westoros isn't based on race but family history.

Again it's a show with shadow babies, dragons, giants and other magical shenanigans. I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept someone of color as the head of a powerful house in this setting.

This is one of those arguments that I always find myself in a weird place on. Diversity is great, and our media environment is really lacking at it. And as an intellectual argument, I totally agree with the idea that it's a fantasy world, GRRM and/or the showrunners could really tweak anything if they wanted to to introduce more diversity. There could be whole houses founded by black migrants centuries ago. They could throw out the rules of real-world genetics entirely and say that in this world children are born of completely random race, and do all of their casting entirely race-blind.

But at the same time, I also realize that while fantasy, the story is trying to evoke certain aspects of a real world setting, and creating a people that resemble real-world medieval England does actually add to that effort.

I will say in defense of GRRM's version of the story, he really does seem to get the fact of actual medieval multiethnic society, with his numerous immigrant characters of different races, and with the presence of at least one large scale migration of a different race with the Dornish. He doesn't portray a totally white Westeros, even if he does protest a totally white (outside of Dorne) nobility. Since most of those characters are fairly peripheral to the story, as immigrant characters would be to a story mostly about the nobility, they've been almost entirely written out of the show, though they have at least made some effort to change the racial background of characters who could have a realistic backstory as foreigners, like Areo and Salladhor.

 

[mantidor]

David and Dan at the Emmy's:

The problem with a film is that it has to be at least somewhat self-contained or it will simply not be greenlighted, even for something as popular as this show, and that means the film has to spend sometime building the world up again and for something as lengthy as these series it might as well take half the movie itself.

 

[Atraveller]

lol

Did he write that line?

 

[Ratrat]

I was pretty disappointed when the Dorne cast was revealed. I'm pretty sure the Dornish are dark skinned, at least in Sunspear, with lighter skinned Dornish living in the mountains or wherever. Ultimately, they chose mostly good actors and the source material doesn't have the most racially diverse cast either.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

lol

Awesome.

 

[biosnake20]

GoT casts another Northern Lord

Spoiler

So it's not Smalljon or Karstark because they should be already filming and the character has a long speech. Maybe Howland Reed?

 

[H.Cornerstone]

GoT casts another Northern Lord

Spoiler

So it's not Smalljon or Karstark because they should be already filming and the character has a long speech. Maybe Howland Reed?

Spoiler

Please please please by Wyman Manderly and the North Remembers speech.

 

[Real Hero]

Spoiler

Please please please by Wyman Manderly and the North Remembers speech.

Didn't they already have some no name say that to Sansa or something?