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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6 Offseason Thread
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PhoenixDark
Banned
Stannis has not lost the battle in the book. Obviously the pink letter suggests a dire end for Stannis but there's plenty of reason to doubt the validity of the letter. Plus if you read Theon's first TWOW chapter it'll become even more clear something is up. Stannis is going to win that battle. And I think the next step will be to take Winterfell.
We're assuming the northern arc of S6 will follow whatever Martin has planned for TWOW; could be wrong of course. The fact that Jon is leading a northern army against the Boltons suggests to me the north will defeat the Boltons, and prepare for the end game: the Others. Book wise the equivalent is Stannis.
We're assuming the northern arc of S6 will follow whatever Martin has planned for TWOW; could be wrong of course. The fact that Jon is leading a northern army against the Boltons suggests to me the north will defeat the Boltons, and prepare for the end game: the Others. Book wise the equivalent is Stannis.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
This sounds amazing.
Basileus777
Member
The real spoiler here is
that Jon is seemingly freed from his oaths and is not with the Night's Watch. How this happens will likely differ from the books, but the end result probably will not. I can't see D&D writing Jon as no longer being in the NW when he remains so in the books. The Boltons are obviously not going to be triumphant in either medium.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Why's that?
Basileus777
Member
Because they are still aiming to end in the same general place as the books, at least for the major characters. Jon is too important for such a divergence to not matter. For all of D&D's changes, they've been pretty reluctant when it comes to restructuring the main plot.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Regardless I think all paths lead back to the Wall. So whether Jon leaves the Wall to rally the north or stays at the Wall...ultimately the end result will be the same. I believe he'll leave the Wall but as an example: what if the NW disbands shortly after his stabbing? What if he's revived and the wildlings agree to stay and man the Wall with him. Then Stannis wins the village+Winterfell battles and brings the northern armies to the Wall.
By replacing Stannis with Jon I'm still assuming the end result will be the north riding to the Wall to face the Others in some form or fashion.
By replacing Stannis with Jon I'm still assuming the end result will be the north riding to the Wall to face the Others in some form or fashion.
Basileus777
Member
I'm in agreement with most of this.
D&D have clearly established Jon's importance in fighting the Others too (see Hardhomme), they'll have the plot will wrap around to Jon's end goal in the books even if he is temporarily taking Stannis' place.
Moff
Member
I'm still willing to bet
that stannis will win the battle in the snowstorm but with heavy casualties that lead to the same result as the 20 good men, including the burning of shireen and the defeat at winterfell. Why? because I still think that Melisandres "clear the storm" magic is too low key for D&D, that's from TWOW.
Liquidsnake
Banned
You gave me chills.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
I'm sure they could figure out a way to do that while still keeping Jon's endgame intact.
The evidence in the books that the Pink Letter is false is too neatly laid out for me to not think something fishy is going on there. Ramsay demands Theon and Arya be returned, except the last Asha chapter in Dance exists entirely to establish the fact that they are now with Stannis. Anyone who has defeated Stannis should have them. Then the Theon preview chapter establishes that Stannis has captured a Dreadfort maester, and Stannis sends Massey off with warning that "you may hear that I've died", before he talks to Theon and implies that he has some I revealed trick up his sleeve. Various theories trying to explain all this are everywhere, but I buy into the idea that Stannis beats the Frey army, but then writes to Winterfell using the captured Dreadfort maester to claim that the Freys were victorious and are returning. That way his men can pose as returning Freys and the Bolton's will open the gates for them. Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter based on misinformation fed to him by Stannis, and the Intel he had gathered from captured spearwives and/or Mance.
But like PhoenixDark has been saying, for show purposes none of that matters. They're concerned with getting to the same end, which is a liberated North eventually turning to face the Others. The show is willing to drop Stannis from those events because they needed a neat end to season 5, and they needed to clear space in the character roster for the Northern Lord characters, and whatever Stannis' future story is must be easily cuttable.
But like PhoenixDark has been saying, for show purposes none of that matters. They're concerned with getting to the same end, which is a liberated North eventually turning to face the Others. The show is willing to drop Stannis from those events because they needed a neat end to season 5, and they needed to clear space in the character roster for the Northern Lord characters, and whatever Stannis' future story is must be easily cuttable.
bengraven
Member
OOOOOOHkay I'm officially going on media blackout.
That's too much awesome story spoiled for me so far.
For your first spoiler:
two actresses - Willa with Lyanna?
For the second:
I wonder where Sansa is? Bran going to tell him what he finds out? JonSa confirmed?!
bitizenbon
Banned
Why do people care so fucking much about
?
the Tower of Joy
PhoenixDark
Banned
minor TWOW spoiler in first paragraph (Theon sample chapter)
My issue with that is that there are two "magic systems" involved here - one with the old gods, and one with R'Hollor. At the end of Theon's first chapters the ravens start calling for Theon to be beheaded at a weirwood that's in the middle of the village. I'm not sure whether it'll happen or not, but if Stannis is going to make a sacrifice it'll be to the old gods, not to R'Hollor; the vast majority of his army is northern and they're demanding a blood sacrifice. He has access to ravens to send letters, but they only go to Winterfell; ie he can't send something to the Wall demanding Shireen be burned. And even if he could it wouldn't arrive anytime soon.
On the other hand Shireen is at the Wall with Melisandre, who has spent two books obsessing over waking a dragon from stone. If Shireen is sacrificed it'll be to resurrect Jon. Perhaps it'll happen inadvertently - for instance maybe she sacrifices Shireen in order to resurrect Stannis (who the letter claims is dead), and instead Jon wakes up.
TLDR: We know Shireen is burned in TWOW, we just don't know the context. I'm assuming it will have nothing to do with Stannis, and instead be able waking dragons from stone. Meanwhile Stannis is in a situation where he has to use a blood sacrifice to the old gods in order to appease his army. The end result could be the snow storm ending
On the other hand Shireen is at the Wall with Melisandre, who has spent two books obsessing over waking a dragon from stone. If Shireen is sacrificed it'll be to resurrect Jon. Perhaps it'll happen inadvertently - for instance maybe she sacrifices Shireen in order to resurrect Stannis (who the letter claims is dead), and instead Jon wakes up.
TLDR: We know Shireen is burned in TWOW, we just don't know the context. I'm assuming it will have nothing to do with Stannis, and instead be able waking dragons from stone. Meanwhile Stannis is in a situation where he has to use a blood sacrifice to the old gods in order to appease his army. The end result could be the snow storm ending
bengraven
Member
Because it's the confirmation.
Moff
Member
because it's the books coolest and biggest secret and honestly one of the most well written chapters in the whole saga
Because it proves R+L=J which has probably been the biggest unconfirmed mystery of ASOIAF since its inception, it opens the vault for lineage and right to the throne.
They had a no flashbacks policy before which they've gone back on now they're running out of material.
Also kinda pointless when they're just getting round to R + L = J stuff 5 years later.
Basileus777
Member
It didn't need to be in season 1.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Agreed about S1, there was no need for that flashback. Whereas now it makes more sense, even though the show has barely touched on the issue of Jon's parenthood or Rhaegar. Still, S5 had enough references to Rhaegar for avid viewers to at least get a general idea of him ("Barristan is a good guy, and he says Rhaegar was a good guy too").
hendersonhank
Member
Am I crazy, wasn't it like one or two pages?
Thaedolus
Member
...of god tier writing which stands out among more god tier writing....
Basileus777
Member
No, you're exactly right.
None of the books or chapters are god tier writing, and GRRM himself would be the first to acknowledge that. Tower of Joy is a great scene, but that doesn't mean "god tier writing".
There was no way it could have really been in season 1. The books can due flashbacks with a lot of vagueness. The show would've made all of the events crystal clear. It would've been really obvious, "Oh, Lyanna has a baby".
Maybe not for you but others may have different standards. I for one thought it was a very stand out little section with some impressive prose and imagery.
What I'm most excited about is a Dany/Jon meeting.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
First spoiler related...
Wylla makes sense IMO, expected she was actually Lyanna's midwife since I read the books.
They're changing the Tower of Joy? Goddamn it.
So many spoiler tags
I don't get all the spoiler tags. It's mostly all speculation and guessing. Seem needless.
RobotChant
Member
My point was that Jon isn't taking Stannis place in the show when the books and show are essentially at the same place in this regards. The show ran through Stannis' material already. The pink letter told us what happened to Stannis even without showing it to us. There's no Sansa standing in for FArya here. It looks like Jon's material will be new, and have nothing to do with Stannis.
Did they do that in the show? I know in the books Maege Mormont has his letter he wrote before he died but I don't remember that part in the show at all.
Fuuuckk, everything about this upcoming season sounds amazing. So as of right now we have no idea who's playing young Ned and Howland Reed?
hey_monkey
Banned
Seems there wasn't much need for it in the show, because homegirl was pregnant and there wasn't a pressing need to think about heirs.
No, Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany were children to King Aerys so they would be next in line in that order. Jon being Dany's nephew would probably be next at this point unless Dany has a child, which we see she can't do. Even if Jon was first in line, there would be people who would fight it because he swore an oath to the Nights Watch where he gave up any claims to land or titles.
Moff
Member
I think Jon is pretty far away from being the first in line, that's why I never got why his heritage is even important.
1) The Targaryens have no claim anymore, their claim was destroyed by Robert Baratheon when he crushed their dynasty.. He took the throne by conquest and the Targaryens would have to do the same again, just like they did 800 years ago and like Dany is doing now.
2) Even if the Targaryens had a claim, Jon was born out of wedlock, he is a bastard. Dany is not, she has the better claim.
3) His nightwatch oaths prevent him from being heir to anything, so far at least.
4) who will ever prove anything of this? Not even Jon himself knows it.
which makes me believe that their will be some other reason why his heritage will be important, maybe some magic, prophecy stuff.
1) When Robert says that Ned should've just claimed the throne, Ned rebuffs him saying that Robert had the better claim, being that his grandmother was a Targ. So while I agree that he won it by conquest (as Renly uses to justify his actions), he still used his claim to justify his rule.
2) Unless they married...and with the show cancelling out Aegon, then that leaves Jon. Now if Lyanna runs off to have a bastard with Rhaegar, after telling Ned that Robert would never stop whoring around and be a good husband...then I just don't even know.
I'm pretty sure Ned was not king because he didn't want to become one. The Baratheon's claim that they were distant relatives of the Targaryens was always weak at least, and everyone knows it.
TestOfTide
Banned
In the books there are non-baretheons that bring up the baretheons being related to the targs since Rayelle Targeryen (or whatever he name was) married Robert Baratheon's grandfather. I believe one of them was The Queen of Thorns who brought it up.
No, Rhaegar's trueborn children come before his siblings, so the current Targaryen line of succession (ignoring possible fakeness, bastard status and nights watch oaths) would be Aegon, Jon, Dany.
The Targaryen's may have lost the throne but they can still make a claim through Robert, they are related to the Baratheons after all, Robert even used it to strengthen his claim. Robert's children being not his invalidates their claim and House Baratheon in the novels seems to only consist of Stannis and Shireen, if their line ends the throne would then revert back to the Targaryens.
The Targaryen's may have lost the throne but they can still make a claim through Robert, they are related to the Baratheons after all, Robert even used it to strengthen his claim. Robert's children being not his invalidates their claim and House Baratheon in the novels seems to only consist of Stannis and Shireen, if their line ends the throne would then revert back to the Targaryens.
Basileus777
Member
If he's legitimate, then yes.
This is wrong. Rhaegar's children get priority over his siblings.
I would say that the show's decision to make the story told in the Pink Letter true is the same as them making Mance's death by burning true in the show. They take a fake out from the book and make it real as a way to end plots early while using actual book moments. As I said earlier, I just don't buy the letter as true in the books.
Depends. If Rhaegar and Lyanna never married, then he's still a bastard and has no claim to anything. If they did, then he's still behind Aegon, since Aegon is Rhaegar's older child. Jon is heir only if Rhaegar and Lyanna married and the real Aegon is dead. That would put him ahead of Dany and Viserys.
Not that we saw, but they could say it was done retroactively.
I'm not sure about the technicalities but couldn't Bran, Rickon or even Sansa legitimize Jon?
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