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US Vice-Presidential Debates 2016 |OT| Your Big Awkward Family Reunion

Who won the debate?

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M

MIMIC

Banned
My gut was right. Felt very balanced, but slightly tipped in Pence's favor. Kaine baited Pence over and over and over. And the fact that he never took the bait (and the fact that Kaine never let up) resonated just slightly enough to be the deciding factor.
 
C

Chezzymann

Member
eggandI said:
Tens of millions of Americans do not mind that Mike Pence went up on TV and lied about things him and trump have literally been recorded saying. This country is fucked
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To be fair, the CNN fact checker guy just said that Kaine was wrong about saying that Clinton apologized about her deplorables comment and that she in fact never did. But yeah Pence did lie more than Kaine.
 
D

DontBeThatGuy

Member
Monocle said:
Yeah they should be totally neutral about a documented racist and fascist who advocates war crimes, has a dangerously weak grasp of foreign policy, promotes conspiracy theories, and bases one of the major selling points of his campaign (his supposed business expertise) on outright lies about his past and our economy. And that's a tiny sample of his bullshit.

Are you serious right now?
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It's as if they also have to live in this Country as well.
 
R

royalan

Member
Crossposting from PoliGAF:

HOLY

FUCKING

SHIT


MSNBC just did the first supercut replay of the debate...and Kaine's performance looks a LOT better. So much better that I'm wondering if that was the play all along.

Cutting out all the fat...seeing all the times Kaine pressed Pence to defend Trump only to get nothing is really effective.

And these supercuts get more play than the debates themselves.

Pence denying things Trump has said is going to be the story coming out of this debate. I fully believe that now.
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E

Extollere

Sucks at poetry
Pence has that fatherly, pastor-like demeanor that people just eat up. He appears righteous, and respectful, in a certain military kind of sense. He's stern, and serious, and says the word "strong" a lot. People don't listen to debates, they default to the personality that resonates with them the most. Unfortunately, a whole lot of Americans want somebody like Pence in charge just because of his appearance, temperament, and looks. It really doesn't go any deeper than that. Oh, and the R, but that's about as deep as policy goes.
 
N

NimbusD

Member
The only way I could see people saying that Pence won is if they didn't listen to the words and purely listened to composure. Tim Kaine needed to calm down and focus, but Pence basically lied through his teeth to an insane degree and just ignored the things that he had no answers for. Is that really all you need to do to 'win'?

I'll say that neither of them stood out as a clear winner, but after fact checkers tear it apart I can't see how Pence could be declared anything but a slimy lying fuck.
 
D

DontBeThatGuy

Member
SwiftDeath said:
I do think the fact that Pence really didn't defend Trump is going to be a big talking point
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I mean, it's the only talking point. Kaine being "rude" or not composed, and essentially an attack dog, doesn't actually mean shit when people starting discussing these things in depth.
 
A

Apollo

Banned
PPl that don't think FOX=republican and CNN=democrats is very delusional and is not paying attention to what they watching. I knew CNN was pro demo and only watched that channel because I didn't want to hear the BS they said about Obama during his elections. I know watch both just to hear both sides now. I even know which ppl on each network not to watch because of them being so bias.
 
I

Ithil

Member
A good point brought up, is that nothing Pence or Kaine said can be used as a positive for Trump or a pro-Trump ad, but a load of stuff said in this debate can and will be used as material for pro-Clinton and anti-Trump ads and arguments.
 
B

Biske

Member
So I'm watching the local news here and they open with one brief story about the debate.

How do they sum it up?

By showing a clip of Kaine highlighting how Trump wont release his taxes, and Pences silly response.

Then they move on.


THATS why Kaine "won" the debate.

The aftermath of this whole thing is another giant spotlight on Trumps negatives.


Doesn't matter how Kaine did it, he lodged Trumps negatives in the national spotlight yet again. That was the point.
 
A

Afrodium

Banned
There's no chance of Pence getting the nom in 2020. Either Trump is a wake-up call to the GOP and Pence's history as his VP makes him completely toxic, or the Republican electorate nominates another Trump-esque candidate, which is also not Mike Pence.


...or he's the VP on the ticket for Trump's second term
 
D

DontBeThatGuy

Member
Apollo said:
PPl that don't think FOX=republican and CNN=democrats is very delusional and is not paying attention to what they watching. I knew CNN was pro demo and only watched that channel because I didn't want to hear the BS they said about Obama during his elections. I know watch both just to hear both sides now. I even know which ppl on each network not to watch because of them being so bias.
Click to expand...

If you're not biased against Trump, you're trash.
 
H

Hours Left

Member
MSNBC just brought up something I was thinking about. Even if you think Pence won on "style" (which I don't agree with), there's almost nothing the Republicans can use from the debate as far as quotes or footage to bolster their campaign.

The Democrats alternatively have loads of clips of Pence denying allegations against Trump and himself that are easily fact checked. Tons of ad and debate fodder for the future.
 
D

DontBeThatGuy

Member
Biske said:
So I'm watching the local news here and they open with one brief story about the debate.

How do they sum it up?

By showing a clip of Kaine highlighting how Trump wont release his taxes, and Pences silly response.

Then they move on.


THATS why Kaine "won" the debate.

The aftermath of this whole thing is another giant spotlight on Trumps negatives.


Doesn't matter how Kaine did it, he lodged Trumps negatives in the national spotlight yet again. That was the point.
Click to expand...

Exactly. There's nothing substantial or lasting to knock Kaine for.
 
R

rjinaz

Member
fallingdove said:
Not equating those policies - sorry you misunderstood.

I was simply illustrating that supporters typically don't support 100% of a candidates policies.
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Ok but it doesn't really matter. If you vote for Trump you are saying you are ok with those things happening. You may not want a higher minimum wage but if you vote for Clinton for other reasons, you are saying it's ok if that happens.

I understand ultimately all things must be weighed but letting a minimum wage increase happen is on a complete different level than letting racism and bigotry prevail. I'm sorry you can't see that. The people that are yelling "me taxes" or whatever, are fine with everything else since it won't efect them much.
 
K

Knoxcore

Member
Listen people, Pence won the night, but if tomorrow the media is running clips of Trump saying all the things Pence said Trump didn't say, then Clinton/Kaine wins the week.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Staccat0 said:
People forget what VP debates are. Kaine wasn't there to win the debate. He did his job.
Click to expand...

Is this a thing people say?

Pretty sure Kaine wanted to win. He didn't, but unlike Trump last week, there's a lot to be salvaged from his performance.
 
fallingdove

fallingdove

Member
Alucrid said:
ok. how do you feel about his support of conversion therapy? or the fact that he views gay marriage as a societal collapse? or that he opposed a law that would prohibit discrimination against LGBT people in the workplace? or that he opposed the repeal of don't ask don't tell?

http://time.com/4406337/mike-pence-gay-rights-lgbt-religious-freedom/
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I don't believe in conversion therapy per se, but I do believe in providing licensed therapy to those that are trying to understand their feelings. I have a number of friends that were ostracized by the public while they were sorting out their sexuality that made it even more difficult to come out.

Gay Marriage - see my comment on not agreeing with him on gay marriage.

Opposition against various laws that impact the LGBT community - I haven't read about his positions in these areas but favor non-discriminatory practices.
 
E

Ekai

Member
fallingdove said:
Come on - you know very well that he doesn't believe those things in the way you have contextualized them.

In terms of No LGBT Rights - I don't agree with his stance on same sex marriage. But I haven't ever agreed with 100% of a politicians policies. I doubt that I am in the minority.

Its the same way that I think Hillary's stance on raising the national minimum wage is a bad idea but I will still be voting for her.
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I mean, Pence literally wants it to be legal to torture LGBT citizens. It's not comparable and nothing to scoff at.

Not to mention raising wages actually contributes to growing the economy while Republican economics ruins the middle and lower classs. >_>
 
B

broncobuster

Banned
Ithil said:
A good point brought up, is that nothing Pence or Kaine said can be used as a positive for Trump or a pro-Trump ad, but a load of stuff said in this debate can and will be used as material for pro-Clinton and anti-Trump ads and arguments.
Click to expand...

That's what's remarkable about the Trump/Pence "they said mean things about us!" strategy. Most of those ads use their sound bites. But they act like the campaign is falsifying all these heinous quotes.
 
D

Dai101

Banned
fallingdove said:
Come on - you know very well that he doesn't believe those things in the way you have contextualized them.

In terms of No LGBT Rights - I don't agree with his stance on same sex marriage. But I haven't ever agreed with 100% of a politicians policies. I doubt that I am in the minority.

Its the same way that I think Hillary's stance on raising the national minimum wage is a bad idea but I will still be voting for her.
Click to expand...

No, I KNOW he believes and DOES and acts on those things.

Here’s a Recap of Mike Pence’s Attacks on LGBT Rights Just in Time for Tonight’s VP Debate


http://www.towleroad.com/2016/10/mike-pence-lgbt/
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We've covered plenty of these before, but here's a refresher:

** In March, Pence signed a bill into law requiring burial or cremation for aborted fetuses.
** Last month, Pence said he'd like to "send Roe v. Wade to the ash heap of history."
** Pence signed a 2015 bill permitting Indiana business owners to cite religious beliefs as a reason to refuse service to gay and lesbian customers.
** As Indiana's governor, Pence slashed Planned Parenthood funding, arguably contributing to one county's HIV outbreak.
** During his 12 years as a congressman, Pence voted against nearly every piece of environmental legislation.
** Pence voted to bar the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gases.
** Pence voted for opening the Atlantic up to offshore oil drilling.
** As a congressman, Pence gave a floor speech advocating the teaching of creationism in public schools.
** Pence wrote an op-ed arguing that "smoking doesn't kill."
** Pence has advocated the use of public funds for conversion therapy, a discredited and potentially harmful form of anti-gay therapy.
** Gov. Pence funneled $3.5 million in Indiana's Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) funds, intended for needy families with children, to crisis pregnancy centers, which counsel women against having abortions.
** Gov. Pence refused to comply with Obama administration rules aimed at reducing prison rape.
** As congressman, Pence voted in favor of a bill that would have allowed for the detention of undocumented immigrants seeking hospital treatment.
** Pence co-sponsored a bill in Congress that would have eliminated automatic citizenship for children born on US soil to undocumented parents.
** Pence was one of 31 governors to oppose the resettlement of Syrian refugees in his state, declaring that state agencies wouldn't cover the cost of some social services for Syrian refugees. His behavior earned him a strong rebuke from a panel of three federal judges, including one whom Donald Trump put on his Supreme Court nominee short list.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics...oring-hes-one-americas-most-extreme-governors
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Don't be fooled by the presentation: Mike Pence is a rightwing zealot

if Trump were to win the White House, would be one major impeachment-worthy Trump-Up away from the presidency, and when we turn a critical eye to his track record, a President Pence is nearly as scary as a President Trump.

In 2015, as governor of Indiana, Mike Pence became the lightning rod in a national controversy surrounding a religious freedom bill that critics said would enable anti-LGBT discrimination in the state.

The backlash was swift as corporations threatened to take their business out of the state. Pence ultimately capitulated, signing a modified version of the bill to quell the controversy. But it’s far from the only example of anti-LGBT activity on Pence’s résumé.

In 2000, Pence affirmed his support for conversion therapy, a practice that’s been banned on LGBT minors in five states and in DC. In 2006, when he was head of the Republican Study Committee, Pence referred to gay marriage as emblematic of “societal collapse” and called being gay a choice. As a congressman, he advocated for defunding Planned Parenthood and for defining marriage as being between a man and a woman.

His crusade against Planned Parenthood continued when he became governor in 2013. A major outbreak of HIV/Aids in his state was made worse by the fact that the only Planned Parenthood in the county that tested for HIV was closed due to his funding cuts.

For a good encapsulation of his views on women’s rights, there’s the bill he co-sponsored in 2011 that, if it had passed, would have redefined rape as “forcible rape” and not allowed federal funds to pay for an abortion unless it met strict criteria.

Today, Pence is running with Trump on a radically anti-LGBT platform that was drafted by people who believe, among other things, that gay people are sexual predators and that HIV/Aids is God’s punishment for homosexuality. This, alone, is reason to be disturbed.

But perhaps most disturbing is the fact that, in the end, Mike Pence is simply a more palatable Donald Trump. And in that, he is not alone.

On the debate stage tonight, Pence will deliver what Republicans have been delivering for years: Trumpism dressed up in the niceties of mainstream conservative rhetoric.

Before Trump made a habit of screaming it at the top of his lungs, Republicans were masters of stoking the fires of homophobia, racism and misogyny for personal gain. Only, they called it “traditional values”. They called it “pro-life”. They called it “religious freedom”.

That’s who Mike Pence is, and that’s why it’s so deliciously awkward to see him having to handle Trump’s controversies. He is the conventional politician who will be made to answer for the petulant outbursts of an incredibly unconventional candidate.

In 2016, as the rightwing fringe threatens to inject itself into the mainstream, we should be vigilant in identifying extremism wherever we see it, even if it’s not flailing its arms and making headlines. Pence is a case in point.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-zealot-vice-presidential-debate-republicans
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Mike Pence Won't Pardon an Innocent Man

In 1997, Keith Cooper was arrested and convicted for an armed robbery in Elkhart, Indiana. After serving 10 years for the conviction, DNA evidence pointed to another man, already in custody for a similar crime. Every eyewitness account also recanted their testimony that led to Mr. Cooper’s conviction, as the witnesses were denied a police line up they requested before the trial. Cooper’s retrial was ordered, but the new prosecutor, Curtis Hill, offered Keith a plea deal which would give him an immediate release, rather than waiting months or years for the retrial. All Keith had to do was admit his guilt for a crime he didn’t commit. Keith’s wife and children were about to become homeless, so what else could Keith do? What would you do? Keith has been living with the stigma and real limitations of being a convicted felon ever since.

And now, Governor Mike Pence, Trump’s Vice-Presidential running mate, refuses to provide justice to Keith Cooper, even after admitting Cooper’s innocence. In an ongoing battle to remove his felony status, Mr. Pence finally responded...by delaying a decision. His reasoning?

“Although the judicial system may not be perfect, given the extraordinary nature of Mr. Cooper’s request, we need to be certain the judicial process is complete and has been given every opportunity to address any error that may have occurred."

In other words, he basically doesn’t want to, and goes on to make the absurd argument that no governor has ever pardoned an innocent man. Yes, you read that correctly.

What you may not know is that Curtis Hill, the prosecutor who leveraged the plea agreement that Keith signed to get out of jail immediately, is now running as a Republican for Attorney General of Indiana, and an actual pardon could hurt Mr. Hill’s campaign. Of course, this has nothing to do with things, right?

So basically, a governor running for the second highest office in the U.S. doesn't really care much for justice (or blemishing an ally’s campaign), and prefers the injustice of continuing to limit Keith Cooper, an “innocent convicted felon”.

The logic (and I use the term lightly) of Pence’s (in)decision shows Governor Pence has his own problems with reality.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/1/1576693/-Mike-Pence-Won-t-Pardon-an-Innocent-Man
Click to expand...


Jeffrey said:
So all i got from this debate is that im 70% sure if Trump wins presidency... he's gonna get into an 'accident' and Pence will be made president.

Something about Pence... those eyes, are of a zodiac killer.
Click to expand...

Then you should actually be affraid. He's the one that is going to rule.

danm999 said:
Pence did almost nothing to defend Trump. At times it seemed like he didn't even know who he was.

That'll help Pence in 2020, unlikely to help Trump in 2016 though.
Click to expand...

As someone said, they are exactly like Megatron and Starscream.
 
S

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
Valhelm said:
Is this a thing people say?

Pretty sure Kaine wanted to win. He didn't, but unlike Trump last week, there's a lot to be salvaged from his performance.
Click to expand...
It's accepted wisdom. Your VP is an attack dog during the election. They can get aggro where you cannot becuase No one. NO ONE in the history of VPs has swung an election in a debate.

Pence was shackled, becuase he is the first VP maybe in history whose job it was to make the ticket seem sane and stable. He did his job too.

Let's be clear, there is no "win."
That's some pundit bullshit. How can you win if you don't inspire a single voter to vote for your candidate?
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Knoxcore said:
Listen people, Pence won the night, but if tomorrow the media is running clips of Trump saying all the things Pence said Trump didn't say, then Clinton/Kaine wins the week.
Click to expand...

Which was the point of Kaine's performance. He just created the framework for like 30 new ads on practically every issue imaginable. He sacrificed their rook to put Trump into check, again.
 
fallingdove

fallingdove

Member
rjinaz said:
Ok but it doesn't really matter. If you vote for Trump you are saying you are ok with those things happening. You may not want a higher minimum wage but if you vote for Clinton for other reasons, you are saying it's ok if that happens.

I understand ultimately all things must be weighed but letting a minimum wage increase happen is on a complete different level than letting racism and bigotry prevail. I'm sorry you can't see that. The people that are yelling "me taxes" or whatever, are fine with everything else since it won't efect them much.
Click to expand...

Again, I do understand that these things exist on different levels of impact. I see that very clearly and was not attempting to equate the policies.
 
M

mentallyinept

Banned
Hillary's team burned a Rolodex full of Trump attacks into Kaine's brain, gave him a triple espresso, and let him off the leash.

Kaine was chomping at the bit to let them fly and got overeager, but the message still got through.

Pence being unable to defend Trump will be a major talking point until the second prez debate.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
Staccat0 said:
It's accepted wisdom. Your VP is an attack dog during the election. They can get aggro where you cannot becuase No one. NO ONE in the history of VPs has swung an election.

Pence was shackled, becuase he is the first VP maybe in history whose job it was to make the ticket seem sane and stable. He did his job too.
Click to expand...
Sarah Palin?
 
J

jtb

Banned
How many ads have actually been cut from debate clips? The only one that comes to my mind in recent memory is the big bird ad lol
 
R

rjinaz

Member
Apollo said:
PPl that don't think FOX=republican and CNN=democrats is very delusional and is not paying attention to what they watching. I knew CNN was pro demo and only watched that channel because I didn't want to hear the BS they said about Obama during his elections. I know watch both just to hear both sides now. I even know which ppl on each network not to watch because of them being so bias.
Click to expand...

puh lease. They have those nasty Trump people on every time I turn on their channel to watch, which causes me to turn it off immediately. Maybe in your very bias world where if it's not conservative talking points it's the liberal media leading the sheep but to people with actual critical thinking, they are very middle road. Check out MSNBC if you want democrats.
 
S

smurfx

get some go again
Biske said:
So I'm watching the local news here and they open with one brief story about the debate.

How do they sum it up?

By showing a clip of Kaine highlighting how Trump wont release his taxes, and Pences silly response.

Then they move on.


THATS why Kaine "won" the debate.

The aftermath of this whole thing is another giant spotlight on Trumps negatives.


Doesn't matter how Kaine did it, he lodged Trumps negatives in the national spotlight yet again. That was the point.
Click to expand...
yeah a lot of the news these days is composed of soundbytes and kaine had way more to offer than a subdued pence.
 
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