TheMoon
Member
Not sort of. Straight up no.
They don't need a Direct for a website registration launch. They told us everything we need to know here https://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/201...ans-for-first-mobile-app-Miitomo-1082687.html
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What we know so far about the Nintendo NX with sources
- Thread starter Hero of Legend
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Not sort of. Straight up no.
They don't need a Direct for a website registration launch. They told us everything we need to know here https://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/201...ans-for-first-mobile-app-Miitomo-1082687.html
neurosisxeno
Member
Nope. They would be way too expensive by Nintendo standards. Also, ARM in a console is unlikely.
You shouldn't worry about games being "downgraded" due to the handheld, because the console and handheld will not share physical media. The idea of 50GB cartridges is typical Gamestop-employee-style drivel. Even if by some miracle they can be manufactured as cheaply as $5 (before packaging), that's still ~$4.8 down the drain per unit sold compared to a disc. Multiply that by the sales numbers of the likes of Smash, MK8 and Splatoon and Nintendo would be pissing away dozens of millions of dollars away for no good reason.
Write this down: console and handheld versions of games will use different binaries shipped in different media and sold at different prices, made from the same source but tailored to each one's particularities. There will also be console-only games (ex.: ports of PS4 games) and handheld-only games (ex.: touch-only games).
Cross buy will exist, but only for digital purchases. Even then it's very likely many games will use a FE Fates or Bayonetta 2 kind of deal where you get a big discount on the other version. Smaller eShop games and indie games are more likely to be truly cross buy. It makes the most sense financially.
I'm also pretty confident you'll be able to stream from the console to the handheld and probably the other way around too.
Those are my grounded 2c.
Write this down: console and handheld versions of games will use different binaries shipped in different media and sold at different prices, made from the same source but tailored to each one's particularities. There will also be console-only games (ex.: ports of PS4 games) and handheld-only games (ex.: touch-only games).
Cross buy will exist, but only for digital purchases. Even then it's very likely many games will use a FE Fates or Bayonetta 2 kind of deal where you get a big discount on the other version. Smaller eShop games and indie games are more likely to be truly cross buy. It makes the most sense financially.
I'm also pretty confident you'll be able to stream from the console to the handheld and probably the other way around too.
Those are my grounded 2c.
Add my 2 c. to yours :]
Graphics Horse
Member
My grounded 2c involves 16gb cards at launch (third parties be damned) 32 and 64gb down the road.
Would be a first if the new handheld doesn't come with a substantial jump in card size.
32 and 64gb down the road.Would be a first if the new handheld doesn't come with a substantial jump in card size.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Not sort of. Straight up no.
They don't need a Direct for a website registration launch. They told us everything we need to know here https://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/201...ans-for-first-mobile-app-Miitomo-1082687.html
To be fair, that Nintendo UK article encapsulates everything that's wrong about Nintendo's communication problem.
It reads like a droll press release, and one that doesn't actually say anything of substance either. So not only does it not really explain to the customer, why they should care about things like MyNintendo, but the press that's meant to cover the post are left equally poorly informed about the whole thing. Which doesn't help when Nintendo seldom communicates with the press about these things, leaving them to second guess (hence doom articles).
e.g. this bit:
If you were to take the shoes of the uninformed customer, you end up thinking "so what"? There's nothing of value, it's drivel.
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Nintendo needs to publish an avenue where they can communicate with its customers, an avenue that its customers also know they can expect communication from. Something like the PS Blog, or Inside Xbox/Major Nelson.
NCL have made a start at least by setting up Nintendo Topics in Japan - the equivalent post detailing Miitomo/MyNintendo over there is much better, and reads more like an information pamplet, outlining meaningful things about the service that customers actually want to know, not vague descriptions that mean nothing to the reader.
But over in the west Nintendo's still mostly reliant on press releases and hoping the media reports on them, which doesn't work so well. In Europe at least there still doesn't seem to be an easy, well defined place for customers to even find out about the week's eShop releases. And not everyone is going to be visiting Gonintendo on a Monday morning.
It also doesn't help that Nintendo UK seems very close to the website Nintendo Life, so I wonder if there will even be Nintendo Topics in Europe, since that would potentially harm Nintendo Life.
I also find it strange that Nintendo never replaced its previous communication channel -- official magazines like ONM and Nintendo Power -- with an equivalent online resource. Feels even more like a missed opportunity when you consider that. It just feels like they have no focus or vision in this area too, especially when some interviews go up on the NUK site, some go up on Miiverse, some officially sanctioned ones go up on games media sites etc.
Still, Kimishima said Directs would return in a new form, I'm going to guess that they will be more closely integrated with some sort of blog, or Nintendo app, that customers can open to get the latest. Nintendo Account is already a step towards that in Japan - log in and you get notifications about upcoming releases and so on.
They already had their most successful platform ever running on cartridges only, and I'd argue they were fine with that.
But I think there's something else that should absolutely be noted, that is, having totally separate versions would go against what Iwata said in 2014:
Iwata said:
In my opinion, this implies at the bare minimum NX home will share with the handheld the same media and software (obviously not necessarily the other way round though), possibly with a paid high-res DLC texture pack and/or more detailed models, or even complete exclusives in the event the home goes really well in the West and somehow third parties and/or Nintendo himself believes there's a healthy, exploitable market.
By the way, that could also mean there will be NO media at all, and NX might end up being an all-digital platform...
Graphics Horse
Member
Macronix have said enough to imply they are making roms for it. It's possible they won't come in card form (amiibo shaped game media?!) but I think it's likely enough to be cards, as much as I think they will push the digital option hard. From what I can find it seems like they've done two shrinks from 65nm Xtraroms when the 3ds launched to a 32nm node today.
Realistically a system which filled a 50GB disc to the brim is going to need high capacity cards if the idea is to share software with the handheld version, of *at least* 16GB. However, I have not seen any indication that Nintendo are pushing for 50GB games, Xenoblade X being one of the few that uses more space than 16.
I expect the new system will bring an end to the idea of saves stored on card, too, which should shave off some cost
Realistically a system which filled a 50GB disc to the brim is going to need high capacity cards if the idea is to share software with the handheld version, of *at least* 16GB. However, I have not seen any indication that Nintendo are pushing for 50GB games, Xenoblade X being one of the few that uses more space than 16.
I expect the new system will bring an end to the idea of saves stored on card, too, which should shave off some cost
How so? Isn't the point of making the console & handheld "like brothers" to unify their architectures? Having different architectures would mean more unnecessary work for Nintendo.
Fourth Storm
Member
I've been of this opinion for a while now myself. It's a bit unrealistic to expect Nintendo to back peddle on how they are currently handling DLC and games like Super Smash Bros. Even with a unified development environment, there is still going to be a substantial amount of extra work put in per title. It's not going to be just texture packs and whatnot. They'll tailor the level design to each device's unique features and capabilities. I do expect crossplay for many indie games and VC.
That quote is more about Nintendo's universal login platform, and is mentioned as encompassing Wii U, 3DS, and smart devices as well as NX. I don't see anything there implying a shared physical media.
I think digital would go over well enough in the west if they paired it with some in-store download vouchers and amiibo. You don't hear anyone complaining that their Steam games aren't on a disc. Initial game downloads for most first party titles might even end up being smaller than some of the patches out there today. Japan is another story, though. Maybe something with the SCD patent could be utilized there.
We really have no clue how far Macronix have come with their ROM technology. Anyway, there's nothing saying that they will provide cards for the NX console. The handheld is a given.
Adam Tyner
Member
Read this post which includes actual numbers as to why it's a far more viable option than you believe. There's more to the equation than manufacturing costs.
I guess you're right in the sense that maybe it doesn't directly imply that, and that I should have worded it better (...sharing media and/or software... for example).
Does this make a little bit more sense? ^__^
Fourth Storm
Member
Yeah, there's enough evidence that at least some software will be shared (see Miyamoto's comment in the OP). How they go about doing that with media and pricing is still up to debate.
We need deets already! Throw us a friggin bone here!
James Scott
Banned
Is DP from Gamefreak?
Yep, I think the next benefit Pokemon will receive from a hardware leap should be the overworld.
Full camera controls more cinematic cutscenes, Etc.
If there's any game that could benefit from a bigger budget it's Pokemon
There is nothing unlikely about ARM for a console.
TheMoon
Member
Graphics Horse
Member
I've read enough to see they didn't hit a technological brick wall 6 years ago. I will be surprised if the console has an optical drive even if just for BC.
I hope to God they go 14nm and have at least 4GB in the handheld.
Just the usual clarification since I always worry about language issues. :-\
My original reasoning was more or less something like this:
Nintendo wants to relate to their customers in a uniform manner, via NNID --> the only field where this would ultimately, actually matter is obviously software --> uniform manner at least suggest it shouldn't matter which NX I end up buying --> lineup is shared --> so should the media
Please forgive me if this sounds weird or even plain absurd logic jump, lol.
Graphics Horse
Member
Hey it's just an idea (of how to persuade you to switch to digital)
The question about media also depends on whether Nintendo thinks they can save more money by having the console have fewer parts and a reduced form factor by making it cartridge-only. I think they'll go disc, but the arguments are there.
I do think the console will be able to play handheld cartridges in either event, though.
As regards the "power level" argument, i think they'll be compelled to put something out there that's at least as strong as PS4 with more modern features. To do otherwise would be to set themselves off on a bad foot immediately with third parties. Unless they feel like the whole NX thing is experimental and that they can scale upwards in power when they feel more comfortable, but that too would betray a lack of confidence, and whatever Nintendo does, they absolutely can't afford to half-ass it.
I do think the console will be able to play handheld cartridges in either event, though.
As regards the "power level" argument, i think they'll be compelled to put something out there that's at least as strong as PS4 with more modern features. To do otherwise would be to set themselves off on a bad foot immediately with third parties. Unless they feel like the whole NX thing is experimental and that they can scale upwards in power when they feel more comfortable, but that too would betray a lack of confidence, and whatever Nintendo does, they absolutely can't afford to half-ass it.
But then you'd still run into the issues of having two of the exact same game at retail. Namely Nintendo paying double for no good reason & taking up unnecessary space on store shelves.
DrROBschiz
Member
Well at the very least it looks like they have the basics down going forward
Unified platform ecosystem ala Ios/Android is a big step up from the current fragmented digital presence between wii, wiiu and 3DS.
Secondly any hardware they go with will be an improvement over the current WiiU/3DS specs even if they went the budget route
Lastly it seems like they want to distance the new product from WiiU/3DS gimmicks..... I dont know what thats going to mean....
I think this is actually bad advice.
Alright, since everyone is a bit more reasonable with 14nm now, let me add to the discussion, first the Console will have much more die area reserved for the GPU than the CPU, but the die area on the handheld should be smaller, given that GPUs scale well with resolution but CPUs do not. Meaning if the console is 1080p and the handheld is 540p, the handheld's GPU can shrink by 4 times or even more, fairly easily. The CPU is performance locked somewhat, obviously it doesn't need to keep a 1:1 ratio of performance with the console, but it does need to be relative to some performance metric. I'm getting at the CPU in the handheld taking up a proportionally larger die area than the one in the console is taking in relation to their respective GPUs.
I see A53 thrown around a lot, it is a great cpu and I expect it, but I think the power consumption can be a bit misleading when compared to performance. 4 A53 cores clocked at 1.5ghz is the same power consumption as 2 A72 cores clocked at the same 1.5ghz, 0.8watts. My suggestion is that the handheld uses 2 A72 cores while the console uses 4, they both have at least 2 A53 cores, which at 1.5ghz runs 0.5 watts.
So give the CPU 1.3watts of consumption for the handheld would be 2 A72 cores and 2 A53 cores clocked at 1.5ghz, this I feel is better than 6 A53 cores clocked at the same, consuming the same amount of power. Developers don't want to use more cores, they want to use faster ones. In order for them to achieve a reasonable power envelope in the handheld, rather than 4CUs from polaris, they would be better served with 2CUs and more CPU power, which is basically my entire purpose in this post, the closer the CPUs are in the console and handheld, the easier development will be, we don't know polaris' power draw yet, but if they can fit 2 A72 cores and 4 A53 cores all clocked at 1.5ghz in the handheld and 2CUs, under 2.5watts for just the SoC. It would be the smart way to go and they can pump the console with 4 A72 cores @ 2.3ghz and 4 A53 cores @ 1.5ghz, performing very close to PS4's 8 jaguar cores, in a lot of cases out performing it.
Glad we are thinking the same way now, but I'd like to put out my own stab at the specs.
1. AMD has talked so much about Nintendo, and even the handheld successor to 3DS, I think they will be behind both systems.
2. I expect polaris in the handheld for it's power saving. I don't see the handheld exceeding 4 watts.
3. I think the console and handheld will both use a custom APU created at 14nm as it saves power and I expect AMD to be the designer anyways, also it is more simple for a single team to produce a single SoC family than 2 separate ones.
4. They will probably reasonably target current gen performance with the console.
Given those assumptions, I think the specs should quickly fall into place:
The console: $199
GPU: 8CUs @ 800mhz - 1ghz (819GFLOPs - 1 TFLOPs) at 1TFLOPs, Polaris should perform very close to XB1, though we don't know how well Polaris out performs GCN, we do know that it does, and should strike close.
CPU: 4 A72 cores @ 2.3ghz and 4 A53 cores @ 1.5ghz (up to 2 reserved for OS)
RAM: 8GB (I'm not going to touch on tech here, it doesn't matter too much)
The handheld: $199
GPU: 2CUs @ 500mhz 128GFLOPs (6 to 8 times slower than the console, but at 1/4th the resolution and a smaller screen, this should handle the same games with minimal rework)
CPU: 2 A72 cores @ 1.5ghz and 4 A53 cores @ 1.5ghz (offering the same OS experience could actually be important to Nintendo and would give them the best environment to tackle a faster OS)
RAM: 2GB
Whatever they do, they should spend more on the CPU for the handheld, to get the system closer to the console, hopefully this gives everyone some insight into how you'd combine these environments a bit more.
I googled AMD polaris and those are not even yet on the market 2016 chips.
Come one guys be serious. You're in deny if you only refers your own expectations to that "cutting-edge, market leading chips" clickbait.
Since when Nintendo starts to design a hardware while the core components are expected to be on the market 6 months before release. I don't even know how that's possible.
Even with a console TBR in 2017, you should look at components available sometime last year. Not overpriced things that weren't even prototypes 18 months ago.
Don't you mean $299 for the console?
No, it's a cheap console. If the gimmick is expensive, it could be $250, but there isn't a reason to expect Nintendo to come out with a weaker console that costs more than their competitors.
As for Polaris, it is what they would have to use in the handheld if it's amd, nothing else from them would be able to compete with mobile hardware, it isn't like I've put out pie in the sky specs either here, the console is weaker than the xb1 and the handheld is about on par with wii u.
Fourth Storm
Member
I'm sure they've progressed along with process technology, however we have yet to see evidence of large capacity ROM. Nintendo seem to be the only customer looking for such media, so the pricing could become an issue. If Nintendo did want something in the 32GB-64GB range, I'd be very surprised if they didn't go with a more commonly available NAND solution.
Anyway, call it intuition, but I just can't see your EAs and Ubis getting behind a game card media, if they are going to show the console any support at all. I'm betting Nintendo are hoping to prove the platform viable and gain support, if not initially, within the following year or so. Nintendo simply cannot afford to continue banking on the otaku market in the west.
I see this as having more to do with a unified eShop and account system, accessible from consoles, smart devices, PCs, and so on. It also looks like they want to make it easier to transfer downloaded software over to different devices via your Nintendo account. I'm not saying that there won't be a decent amount of cross play games or even that the home console won't accept game cards in some form, but I don't read the quote as any type of guarantee.
James Scott
Banned
I don't think they'll make the handheld and console cost the same
I'm giving room for an expensive gimmick in the console, but I don't really think they need to be different prices when they are already so different devices and simply choices left to their audience.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
You significantly overshoot a handheld's TDP, and from there your entire metrics falls apart.
You need a considerable (for a handheld) heatspreader for 4W. Remember, this is not a tablet - it does not have the surface area to dissipate 4W. Add to the fact that 2x A72 @ 16FF TSMC @ 1.5GHz take ~1W (vs your 0.8W estimate), and it's the same for a cluster of A53s @ 14FF SEC @ 1.5GHz, and you'll see you're badly skewing your TDP balance towards the CPU side. For what - some impossible console/hh CPU parity? Come on, who expects that in the first place?
Hey Blu, what's vita's tdp? My estimations are 14nm LPP, which saves 15%. Nothing I said is off by much at all, if it even is. I also say Nintendo should target under 2.5 watts for the entire SoC. Polaris might give them ample room, we just don't know yet.
Also it is for porting from PS4 that you'd want the A72 cores clocked at 1.5ghz, programming isn't so simple that you can just throw a dozen weak cores at what a few stronger cores do, single performance still matters and until i7 starts blowing away i5 don't buy into the hype that you can just have a dozen A53 cores do the job of 7 jaguar cores.
No, Nintendo wants to port wii u games, they will need at least 3 a53 cores
Graphics Horse
Member
I could see a 4GB / 1GB split for console/handheld RAM honestly, if they can go with a slimmed down system footprint instead of the bloated ones that are fashionable these days. They might not be that stingy but say the handheld has a 256mb OS portion (same as Vita used to reserve before they halved it last year), that would leave games 75% of what Wii U games have, for a system which presumably runs at a significantly lower res.
But you have the console listed as the same price as the handheld.
Broken Hope
Member
Why are people even speculating anything approaching modern tech and 14nm?
This is Nintendo, I'd be surprised if it's much above Vita level.
This is Nintendo, I'd be surprised if it's much above Vita level.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
No idea. Couldn't be much more than 2W though.
Ok, at 2.5W and 14LPP you're still giving more than half of that to the CPUs. This is not feasible. Whatever nintendo's hh will use its CPU block will be less than a Watt (like in 'a cluster of A53 @ 1.2GHz').
Polaris won't give any room, it will just make possible the use of GCN in a hh. No Polars == no GCN in the hh, that's a guarantee.
You keep building your point on the notion that the hh should be at some single-threaded parity with the home, while at the same time it would bring it to a net CPU loss (since 4x A53s outperform 2x A72s for the same power draw) - that's just irrational.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3-vs-ps-vita-face-off
During gameplay the Vita on average sucks up between just 3.5 to 4W of power
This is for the CPU + GPU, I expect them to be an APU if AMD is behind it.
I agree, they won't use AMD in the handheld if they can't use Polaris, there is just clearly better choices vs GCN.
Because single thread still matters, it is why i7 doesn't beat i5 very often in games. The reality is, developers code game logic to just a few cores and use other cores for run off, if they have a thread that needs to be completed in a certain number of cycles to keep performance, the faster cores are more valuable than more cores.
If power consumption is the same, it is better to have 2 fast cores with 2-4 slow cores than 6-8 slow cores.
Fourth Storm
Member
I've seen you bring this up alot, and it's really a non sequitur. For one, Nintendo have no problem shipping out multiple versions of Pokemon and Fire Emblem these days. As I mentioned in a previous post, with a unified development environment, it makes it easier for Nintendo to implement this type of approach in more of their franchises. Look at Smash as well. The levels are different in each version and that is largely a result of screen size.
http://www.nowgamer.com/super-smash-bros-sakurai-speaks/Sakurai said:
Furthermore, there's no indication that they would even try to sell the exact same game on two different formats. As many people have brought up, they could have a system where you can buy the HH version and then purchase an upgrade digitally for the home console. With the new account system available on pretty much every device and 3DS games already being downloaded to SD cards, not having an internet connection in your home would not necessarily lock you out from such an upgrade.
And realistically, many of the games being released on disc may not have a HH version anyway. This has also been pointed out. Your AAA third party games, the ones that most commonly require large media formats, will in all likelihood be too computationally intensive for the HH.
Nintendo are a company with a history of creative solutions. We shouldn't just go on with "Buts..." for everything that doesn't fit in with this platform construct that we at GAF have largely created from our own imaginations and interpretations. As of now, nobody knows how NX software will play across devices. We only have a hint from Miyamoto that they are looking into it and some quotes from Iwata that he wanted to make NX more like iOS and Android. That's it.
To be fair, there were reasons for that.
Does this strike you as someone who cares about our mental state? Rhetorical question.
I miss iwata
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Yeah, I mean, I get why they were so quiet last year with Iwata and all (plus, let's face it - they didn't really have too much to really promote once Starfox got pushed out), but now it's a new year so you'd think they'd want to hit the ground running with a fresh, new, confident Nintendo, and show off their plans for at least the beginning of 2016 loud and clear. So far they haven't done that and I can't figure out why. They have the games to promote, why the silence aside from random PR bits? The lack of communication is frustrating.
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