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[daveonezero]

Examples? Sorry I didn't realize there was debate over what 2.5D was.

Like, I'm not saying it is always garbage, but it just tends to be in general. The ask here is, do people really enjoy it as an art direction and is that why it's prevalent?

Metroid Dread is an example where it is at least passable, but is this really the best the game could have looked?

You can say the same about any art style or major design element.

Most games are trash.

 

[Pidull]

I'm completely with you OP.

I think the big issue I usually see is that animation of the player character in 2.5D games rarely feels good, and instead the characters look like they are being manipulated by puppet strings. Examples that immediately come to mind are the Trine games, Bloodstained, and Shadow Complex. Very rarely the animation feels great, which for me is a game like Metroid Dread.

I know it is all because it's cheaper to produce, but cheaper doesn't mean better. I completely passed on Mega Man 11 because of it, funny that they went the same direction as Mighty Number 9 (remember how beautiful MN9's 2D concept art looked?).

 

[Soodanim]

You get what you pay for. If devs/pubs want to shit out a 2.5D game on the cheap, then the result is a game that looks and feels cheap, and they don't do well.

Even Bloodstained: Symphony of the Night, which doesn't look bad, doesn't look fantastic and will never look as good as Castlevania: Symphony of the Night did. Again, it's cheaper and easier to work with but you're trading quality for quantity. I prefer quality.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Generally not a fan of it myself. It usually feels like a half-assed comprimise of the worst parts between 2D and 3D.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Ask Pandemonium.

I would say this is the definitive 2.5D game. Also Klonoa!

 

[Three]

They don't do it in realtime though. They either use Toon Boom, Photoshop or After Effects to that effect. So you have to convert animations into images then make them run on the target hardware.

That's a very specific work pipeline these days. Vanillaware for instance has their own proprietary one (and pretty sure they use After Effects extensively), and even then they already use some 3D.

It depends on the engine and game I guess but it's realtime. For pixel art games and fighting games they tend to use this technique of having frame by frame images but a lot of the 2D games now use some meshes, bezier paths, and skeletal animations. You mentioned Vanillaware already as a prime example with dragons crown, Odin sphere, etc but there is also another famous one, the UbiArt framework. Rayman, Child of light, Valiant hearts, etc all favour skeletal animations and meshes over complete frame by frame animations.

UbiArt Framework game engine

Great process video on how Ubisoft creates 2D games such as Rayman Legends and Child of Light in it’s UbiArt Framework engine. The animation and level creation process is worth watching.

animplay.wordpress.com

 

[Danjin44]

Which game is this? Lamp Chronicle?

EDIT: Ah I see Dragon's Crown is in there as well so multiple titles. Where are the 1st and 3rd gif from?

First one is Odin Sphere and third one is Muramasa, all gif I posted are games from Vanillaware.

 

[Rat Rage]

Tidal Terror is NOT a Tropical Freeze level AFAIK.

Pretty sure that video is from the 3DS version too.

That's Donky Kong Country Returns. It's one of the games where 2.5D works very well.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards, Klonoa, Tomba!, Sonic Rush & Rush Adventure, were all pretty good 2.5D games.

 

[cireza]

Some of those look good tho

Needs a bit more bloom.

 

[64gigabyteram]

i asked because a lot of games make it look great. Y'all need to lay off the 2d kool aid, so many examples provided by other users in this thread make you look kinda dumb.
both have their place and both can look good whenever utilized properly by a decent artist who has the resources and dedication

 

[HYDE]

Your mom! 2.5 inches deep…Lol!
Jokes aside, no one not a single soul.

 

[Celcius]

Sometimes 2.5D looks good, like Metroid Dread for example.
The answer though is because gamers want 2D gameplay but everybody wants 3D graphics. Plus devs with experience working with 2D sprites is harder to find than 3D devs these days.

 

[HYDE]

It's one of the reasons I was disappointed with Bloodstained.

Same…Especially after Order of Ecclesia.

 

[Celcius]

OP, what do you think about games with 2D characters and 3D backgrounds, like Marvel vs Capcom 2 or Capcom vs SNK 2?

 

[64gigabyteram]

OP, what do you think about games with 2D characters and 3D backgrounds, like Marvel vs Capcom 2 or Capcom vs SNK 2?

only correct answer is:

the best out of all of them

 

[kiphalfton]

Who even asked for 3D anyway?

Yo momma. She said 2D wasn't enough so she demanded 3D.

 

[Edgelord79]

I don't like 2D games remade into 2.5D games years later. Very offputting.

 

[LordOfChaos]

This one guy. You don't know him.

 

[93xfan]

I remember being disappointed that New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii was 2.5D. First time I think I was critical of the art style, but definitely not the last.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

It's easier and cheaper than well-made pixel art, and in some cases it gives the dev more freedom (such as in-game cinematics).

 

[poppabk]

With "2.5D" you mean games that have regular 2D scrolling but feature 3D graphics?

If yes, i can't fully agree with you when Inside exists.

But i do agree that there isn't a single good looking 2.5D shmup.

Sine Mora EX looks good in my book.

 

[Celcius]

To the OP's point though, the 2.5D art style of Megaman 11 is very off-putting to me. Megaman 9 and 10 look far better imho.

 

[Alexios]

What does that JRPG turn based combat thing have to do with 2.5D? How could it be more 3D, so that it would be a bad looking 3D game and not a bad looking 2.5D game? It seems like you just chose some bad looking games (a DS game at that). Why not show Guilty Gear Strive or something?

Old like Klonoa or Tomba or new like Strive (or... Klonoa again, lol?) 2.5D games have looked great. Or bad. Like 3D games. Or 2D games. It really has nothing to do with that aspect.

It still baffles me how a DS JRPG counts. Do all Diablo-likes like Lost Ark count too? Or any overhead/tilted camera JRPGs a la Grandia or Ys? Bravely Default? All modern fighting games without a side step? Are you just surprised low budget/old 3D graphics aren't as good as AAA/modern or what?

With "2.5D" you mean games that have regular 2D scrolling but feature 3D graphics?

If yes, i can't fully agree with you when Inside exists.

But i do agree that there isn't a single good looking 2.5D shmup.

You really found Zero Gunner 2, Under Defeat, Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, Thunder Force V, R-Type Delta, ugly in their time (or even now for some of them)? What about games that make their sprites out of 3D renders a la Giga Wing or Blazing Star and countless others, which side do they count in?

 

[begotten]

2.5 is great these days and art styles will always come down to personal preference.

A bit weird making an example of Dracula X & FF4 TAY in 2022.

 

[rsouzadk]

I also much more attracted to 2D art work than 2D.5 in side scroller type games.

Muramasa is gorgeous.

 

[Crayon]

Spider and Pandemonium were not forced on us. If you were too young to make that choice, you bear the sins of the father.

 

[ViciousAgenda]

There's shitloads of great games using this perspective.

 

[Fuz]

as opposed to constantly drawing everything

Yeah, I wish. Most of them just go the cheap/lazy route and uses flashlike skeletal animation.

Which is the bottom of the barrel and unbelievably ugly. 2.5D is way better than that, at least.

 

[Trilobit]

The game Inside is a terrific 2.5D game. Really plays to the strength of it.

 

[Evil Calvin]

These are not 2.5D games. Games which are side scrollers but play in psudo-3D are 2.5D (think Pandemonium, Tomba, Klonoa).

This is not HD-2D or 2D with 3D sprites.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Ori is not full 2.5D, there are certain 3D elements to give depth, but most of what you see on screen are multiple flat layers moving at different speeds to create a sense of parallax. It's a very traditional approach, but on steroids. Similar to what they did with Hollow Knight.
When I saw the first game I immediately realized how they achieved the effect and got all misty eyed, not because of the cheap tear jerker intro. It was everything I dreamed of back in the 32bit era, where we instead got primitive origami polygon graphics.

Parallax

 

[nkarafo]

You really found Zero Gunner 2, Under Defeat, Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, Thunder Force V, R-Type Delta, ugly in their time (or even now for some of them)?

Yeah. I never liked them, visually. I always thought they look boxy.

What about games that make their sprites out of 3D renders a la Giga Wing or Blazing Star and countless others, which side do they count in?

Those i like. They look smoother and more detailed.

 

[Player Respawn]

The only 2.5d game I enjoy visually is lbp 1&2. The rest have a weird unpolished look.

Edit: also anything playdead makes, is amazing 2.5d.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Because using 3D modeling programs, or using polygonal templates is easier to use for a 2D game than making, producing, sprites while making them look smoothly animated as you move, attack, or have effects happen on screen.

It's one of the reasons we haven't really seen a jump in 2D graphics since the original Xbox and DC in terms of the full package. Current consoles, even last gen consoles Xone and PS4, could do some inredible things with a pure 2D game we will never see because of time, budget, and effort needed. Why waste those resources on a ambitious 2D game when you could do it in a 3D game?

So at best you see some 2D games in between SNES and DC, usually on the lower end of the chart. Despite having hardware than could run a CPS8 game.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Duke Nukem.

Duke Nukem was a 2D game of the ops criteria for the first two games, and they were terrible. Thank goodness Duke went 3D FPS.

Seasoned sprite artists are not at all common anymore. Sprite work is significantly more time intensive than 3D, therefore more expensive and not practical for most studios making a large game.

IIt's that simple.

There are tools to make sprites easier, work and effort is an issue, but it's more for the budget.

I'm sure maybe some 2D arcade space shooter can be made easy enough if devs wanted to (they don't) that could generations beyond what most people think of for 2D games. But add in any game that's longer with more animations, more attacks, more objects animated in the environment, weather, fake lighting, reflections, and all that Jazz and you can see why no one has gone past the Xbox/DC for 2D games, when that budget can be used for a 3D game instead.

3D is also more attractive to the actual consumer, sure you could blame that on a lack of evolution in 2D gaming graphics in games and the focus on 3D for that. But when you look back consumers came out more for 3D versions of 2D games or for mechanics they liked in 2D games being remade in 3D so there was clearly already a hereditary dislike for 2D games when the 3D options became available back in the day, even extending to Pseudo 3D.

It's all about where to allocate the budget in the end.

 

[fart town usa]

I dunno if 2.5D is what Wayforward does but I can't stand their art style.

I hate to even say it cause they're clearly talented and it's not like it's ugly, but I just can't stand the movements and animation. It's like an uncanny valley vibe for me, if I see that in a game I immediately close out of it.

Even something like Muramasa and SOR4. I had to put the CRT filter on SOR4, it gives it a pixelated look.

 

[Danjin44]

Vanillaware in my opinion just master of 2D art in games, especially the way they paint the background.

 

[Dr. Suchong]

Ask Pandemonium.

I loved that game

 

[TintoConCasera]

Duke Nukem was a 2D game of the ops criteria for the first two games, and they were terrible. Thank goodness Duke went 3D FPS.

Sorry bro, I was meaning Duke Nukem 3D.

That game is 2.5D, since there's no height, just an illusion of height. Just like DOOM.

 

[93xfan]

Have we found out who yet?

 

[TheDreadLord]

From a dev pov, I believe that developing a 2.5D game is way easier since you are dealing with 3D models which are easier to work with instead of redrawing the whole thing every time.

 

[Celcius]

(megaman 11 vs megaman 10)

 

[Ozzie666]

I don't like 2.5D for old classic 2D sprite franchises for the most part.

But Viewtiful Joe 2.5D is a great. We need more Viewtiful Joe in our lives.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Sorry bro, I was meaning Duke Nukem 3D.

That game is 2.5D, since there's no height, just an illusion of height. Just like DOOM.

Usually 2.5D means a 2D game style with polygons, not Pseudo-3D games were you have all directional movement. The Ops examples show that

 

[Ozzie666]

With "2.5D" you mean games that have regular 2D scrolling but feature 3D graphics?

If yes, i can't fully agree with you when Inside exists.

But i do agree that there isn't a single good looking 2.5D shmup.

Just curious where IKARUGA or Einhander fall into all this discission. There is a very blurry line here.

 

[Ozzie666]

Usually 2.5D means a 2D game style with polygons, not Pseudo-3D games were you have all directional movement. The Ops examples show that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5D

Not sure I agree with this statement, but then again, maybe it's subjective? The OP examples aren't really 2.5D, they are non 2D sprite games, with sprites replaced by Polygons. HD2D almost. Plays the same.

Games like Viewitful joe, Maximo, Klona - etc introduce new directions. According to the wiki, these are what 2.5D gaming actually is.

The OP might as well just discuss Donkey Kong Country and discuss artistic style. Would basically be the same thread except sprites vs cgi style.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

https://en.wiki

As soon as wiki showed up the point was lost.

For decades that's what 2.5D meant and was referred to, 2D style games with polygons. How many contemporary sources were calling Duke 3D 2.5D? Or even Doom? Wolfenstein? Blake Stone? Those 3D action games using sprites and no polygons? Any of those free roaming scaling environment games? few to none depending.

 

[SmokedMeat]

2.5D was great when we had hardware that couldn't push tons of polygons at a time.
So you could get decent looking 2D games with 3D elements on Saturn like Clockwork Knight.

I think it extended to systems like PSP as it provided a clean image, with smooth animation.

These days? It's not really needed unless we're talking mobile games where it can still look ok.

 

[Alexios]

2.5D used to be strictly 2D tech games that faked a third dimension by the way they presented themselves, usually an isometric viewpoint a la Diablo, Sonic 3D or similar, vs the more common at the time side scrolling or full top down views. I suppose the term has been reappropriated somewhat now that almost everything is 3D even if it presents itself as 2D. It's clear what the OP is talking about anyway. As well as how wrong he is given countless examples of great looking 3D games that play in a 2D manner and can be described as such, hence the examples being low budget/old games.