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[Plague Doctor]

I said this many times on different facets of modern media.

Joss Fucking Whedon.

Joss Whedon has this faux-counter culture while paradoxically pop cultural referential, quirky, solipsistic character design and writing that only worked in specific stories and cases. There are a couple projects early in his career that this archetype did well in and was fresh and different to many at that time. And even then, those traits were typically in the beginning of a character arc and by the end, those characters matured and grew in some ways.

In the mid 00s, many young writers were fans of his work and emulated his style placing an inordinate amount of emphasis on Quirky quipmasters with the emotional depth of a wad of spit on the ground. (Now it should be noted, Whedon didn't always make this character but this was the takeaway). Also, most of the writers didn't get the memo that these types of character when sparingly used should grow and learn from this immaturity.

Then... he entered the MCU as a lead writer, producer, and creative. His writing and character adaptations were seen as the secret sauce of the rise of the MCU to the notoriously plagiarist tendencies in the rest of Hollywood. This became something of a real life memetic virus that spread to much of big budget western media from the 2010s on.

So here we are. We still can't escape these bullshit shallow characters making quips and acting like entitled rebel-for-no-reason assholes. Again, I am not hating on him specifically cause he wrote other kinds of characters. I am hating on the creative hacks that endlessly emulate the trope he pioneered. We rarely get sincere, earnest characters that are taking shit seriously that don't suffer from main protagonist syndrome. Everyone is the comic relief and the rebel with the heart of gold and it is terrible. More new young writers still see this as the one true way for good character writing.

So yeah. Joss Whedon.

 

[tommib]

I blame Marvel scripts.

 

[Topher]

A. You only remember the good ones. We had plenty of cringe back in the day too.
B. You were younger. Even the cringy stuff you'd see in better light then than your current 20 year older self would.
C. Cultural rot pervasing the large entertainment industries. It's not like there isn't good stories today, its just that you'll see all the DEI-isms being highlighted by the mainstream channels.
D. Young writers will naturally have less life experience than older ones.
F. There'll be huge differences between someone with knowledge on a subject telling a story through a game vs a group of developers who hired a random writer to give some substance to their new looter shooter.

Good post. Agree particularly on the point that young writers lack experience. Doesn't necessarily mean they lack talent. With most things, people get better at what they do the longer they do it.

 

[Krathoon]

Even good, older writers drop the ball. Russel T. Davies just did it on Doctor Who and he will not admit to it.

 

[CGNoire]

Social Media = Most people dont have Real Life Experiences anymore. (Starfield)

There stories are a copy of a copy of a copy now unfortuantly.

 

[GHG]

On the whole, people don't read anymore.

All great artists, creators and writers have one thing in common, they have read a lot (and will have looked at a lot of art, whether that be static or motion), so will draw on previous works for inspiration.

This current crop (particularly in the west) only have the ability to see what's right in front of their face and thus can only draw on contemporary "cultural issues" for inspiration.

 

[Banjo64]

Failing education systems in the Western world.

Poor parenting resulting in less time promoting positive activities like reading and more time spent watching TV and tablets.

Instant gratification doesn’t result in positive outcomes. TikTok, YouTube, Snapchat dopamine rushes are the priority for young people.

 

[Schmendrick]

I ain't ignoring, you literally swept everything under the rug by saying there was trash writing before so it's okay.
I agree but there is lots more now by todays standards which make it stand out.
It's the same with film & TV
the writers are trash, even the ones that used to be good.

You sound like you are in dire need of adblockers and should get off of social media. There`s enough good stuff around.

 

[FewRope]

Failing education systems in the Western world.

Poor parenting resulting in less time promoting positive activities like reading and more time spent watching TV and tablets.

Instant gratification doesn’t result in positive outcomes. TikTok, YouTube, Snapchat dopamine rushes are the priority for young people.

And it's only getting worse

 

[samoilaaa]

Let's try a different approach, what specific games with bad writing were you thinking of when you made this thread? What about the average ones amongst the new you referred to?

hogwarts legacy , ac games , spider man 2 , forspoken , horizon forbidden west , they all lack quality writing , in my personal opinion ofc , some people see no problem with those games

 

[Krathoon]

I don't get this mentality in writing of good people doing bad things. That seems to be a re-occuring theme in television that needs to get stomped on.

 

[Schmendrick]

hogwarts legacy , ac games , spider man 2 , forspoken , horizon forbidden west , they all lack quality writing , in my personal opinion ofc , some people see no problem with those games

Big AAA budget productions trying to appeal to everyone from toddler to grandparent, and their dogs ofc, usually have bad writing? When has that ever been different?
Games in that budget area have the same issues as the blockbuster movie industry now. You can`t risk anything with such a budget behind you

 

[BossLackey]

You act like it used to be good. Writing in video games has never been good. Even for the outliers, the writing is still just okay at best.

 

[Guilty_AI]

hogwarts legacy , ac games , spider man 2 , forspoken , horizon forbidden west , they all lack quality writing , in my personal opinion ofc , some people see no problem with those games

They indeed don't have good writing, and honestly i've seen plenty of people complaining about them too.

Then again, you mentioned 5 games with bad writing while citing 5 new games you considered to have good writing before, this doesn't exactly align with the message you want to pass here.

 

[FoxMcChief]

Because of the Sweet Baby’s of the world are holding gaming back.

Game companies are allowing the Sweet Baby’s of the world to hold gaming back.

 

[ReBurn]

I don't think writing has gotten worse. I think it is just the same as it was back then. I think we just grew up and we can see how it is targeted toward more juvenile audiences.

 

[FoxMcChief]

I don't think writing has gotten worse. I think it is just the same as it was back then. I think we just grew up and we can see how it is targeted toward more juvenile audiences.

 

[samoilaaa]

They indeed don't have good writing, and honestly i've seen plenty of people complaining about them too.

Then again, you mentioned 5 games with bad writing while citing 5 new games you considered to have good writing before, this doesn't exactly align with the message you want to pass here.

well i cant mention all the games with bad or good writing here , it would take alot of time and most likely nobody will read the entire list

my point is for every 1 good game releasing there are 10 other that suck , and im not talking about indies , im talking AAA games with budged that can afford a good writing team

 

[Topher]

my point is for every 1 good game releasing there are 10 other that suck , and im not talking about indies , im talking AAA games with budged that can afford a good writing team

That is very common regardless of the form of entertainment.

"Ninety percent of everything is crap"
-Sturgeon's Law

 

[FoxMcChief]

That is quite common regardless of the form of entertainment.

"Ninety percent of everything is crap"
-Sturgeon's Law

That number seems low.

 

[DonF]

My impression is that the shift has focused, from world building to character building.
Games nowadays are more focused on the character and their personalities and their internal conflicts rather than the world they're living in.

 

[Rudius]

They are less experienced in life, less even than people the same age in times passed, so they have less in which to draw upon. Also they have a distorted view of reality, just look at the all the Mary Sues that are extremely competent despite putting no effort and time into it.

 

[Lunarorbit]

In the book realm there's lots of "young" writers out there. Comics too.

Never understood why games don't tap this well more often. Had r.a. Salvatore, grrm, and Sanderson write or help on games before.

 

[cormack12]

Because social media has removed nuances from everything. Previously there would be thematic undertones,
allegory, metaphors and parallels to draw on to discover the deeper meaning within the story.

Nowadays the authors and writers want kudos so they have to over bearingly make the message obvious at the cost of the narrative.

 

[Loomy]

Can you name 5 young writers?

 

[Guilty_AI]

well i cant mention all the games with bad or good writing here , it would take alot of time and most likely nobody will read the entire list

my point is for every 1 good game releasing there are 10 other that suck , and im not talking about indies , im talking AAA games with budged that can afford a good writing team

Like it was mentioned, 90% of everything is crap. And all the old games you mentioned in OP didn't have high budgets for their time, they definitely fell in AA category at most.

 

[FoxMcChief]

Can you name 5 young writers?

I can’t name 5 old ones.

 

[Loomy]

I can’t name 5 old ones.

The point I'm trying to make is it's not an age thing. Writers - in movies, tv, games, etc - write for the audience that's spending the most. At one point, the WB/CW had some shows doing really well, so a bunch of other networks tried copying it. When Marvel found a formula that worked, every other writer they hired had to write the same shit.

The reality is there aren't a lot of "young" writers or young creative designers in video games. Relatively speaking. And popular content is written to please the lowest common denominator. Alway has. The difference is you, like a lot of us, no longer fit that demographic.

 

[FoxMcChief]

The point I'm trying to make is it's not an age thing. Writers - in movies, tv, games, etc - write for the audience that's spending the most. At one point, the WB/CW had some shows doing really well, so a bunch of other networks tried copying it. When Marvel found a formula that worked, every other writer they hired had to write the same shit.

The reality is there aren't a lot of "young" writers or young creative designers in video games. Relatively speaking. And popular content is written to please the lowest common denominator. Alway has. The difference is you, like a lot of us, no longer fit that demographic.

Hey! I’m still the same piece of shit idiot I’ve always been! I’m failing upwards in my life (the American way), but still fit the same stupid demographic.

 

[BbMajor7th]

Inbreeding.

The entire modern entertainment industry is painfully inbred. The original Star Wars drew inspiration from Flash Gordon serials, Kurasawa films, and sci-fi novels like Dune and John Carter - modern Star Wars draws inspiration from Star Wars. Tony Stark was inspired by Howard Hughes; Captain America started life as wartime propaganda; the Hulk was inspired by a news story. All modern Marvel stories, by contrast, take their inspiration from existing Marvel stories.

So many modern reboots - Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park, Ghostbusters, etc. - feel like inter-generational inbreeding projects that don't further the creative bloodline so much as attempt to clone it. This form of IP-led, commercially-derived Western culture is now the dominant force in mainstream entertainment and we're seeing an emerging generation who've been raised on nothing else. This inbred culture is the only frame of reference they have and the narrower the gene pool gets, the more backward and inbred the storytelling gets.

Happening in everything, not just games, but films, television, books and music too.

I can't speak for the video games industry specifically, and I'm UK/Europe based, so there's that too... but I've noticed over the years of working with entertainment based companies that they have become more and more captured by the middle-classes.

The diversity of voices among creative teams has shrunk to a very narrow spectrum of university educated young people with little life experience, who have got the jobs they have due to nepotism, rather than talent or prior work. These things do not make for compelling narratives or characters. Writers need to live to be able to write well.

That, I would suggest, is the problem that lies across the whole entertainment spectrum, in multiple countries.

This is also part of the problem too. Modern media industries are filled with people who share exactly the same ideals, tastes, economic realities, political outlooks, and professional ambitions. In all the drive for diversity, we've ended up with a breathtaking amount of homogeneity.

 

[Dane]

Because most of the young writers life experience is based solely on whining about problems they made in their own heads. They have poor to zero past inspiration and are oblivious to most things that happened before them.

I can't speak for the video games industry specifically, and I'm UK/Europe based, so there's that too... but I've noticed over the years of working with entertainment based companies that they have become more and more captured by the middle-classes.

The diversity of voices among creative teams has shrunk to a very narrow spectrum of university educated young people with little life experience, who have got the jobs they have due to nepotism, rather than talent or prior work. These things do not make for compelling narratives or characters. Writers need to live to be able to write well.

That, I would suggest, is the problem that lies across the whole entertainment spectrum, in multiple countries.

Because they have a major in-group mindset that excludes anyone outside their characteristics, which is why the "colored hair sjw" is so pervasive in these places. It also creates a competency crisis as Short Fat Otaku explains in his video, they also do that so they will have a place filled only with loyalists.

 

[Hypereides]

Folks ITT have already made some good points.

I'll just add I'd argue its because the video game industry isn't an attractive creative venue like it once was too. Its not the wild west scene for free creative writing as it once was years ago. Writers have to jump through various hoops before their stories are finalized.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

Lack of interest in doing things well... Laziness.... Immaturity...

 

[FoxMcChief]

Let’s be honest though. The best video game stories are pretty low bar when compared to stories told in other mediums. That’s not a bad thing. Just saying, creative writers would be wasted on video game stories.

 

[Shut0wen]

What games have been made by young writers? I know theres alot of shit written games

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

1. Confirmation bias, you only remember the good games, not the countless bad ones
2. Writing has to be at the front of the game experience or It will be by default the last wheel of the dev priority due to the better flexibility over other areas of game devs
3. Stories aren't necessary in most games so they take the backseat
4. Games are interactive, writers have to take player agency into account and it's hard
5. The best writers will write books, second best will write TV show, third best will write movies, fourth best will write games maybe

Are you telling me that Super Mario RPG doesn't have a good story???

 

[blue velvet]

Videogame writers don't know anything about nuances. Games lack subtlety and depth. It's the same "the good guy has to stop the bad guy's evil plan" bs over and over. It's crazy how videogame hasn't surpassed the silent film era when it comes to writing and those films didn't even have dialogue.

It doesn't help that developers now are hiring activists to police their art. One of the main difference between films/literature and videogame is transgressiveness. It lacks any of that and I'm not talking about the fake gore/violence in games. Most videogame stories are fairly safe and politically correct.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Let’s be honest though. The best video game stories are pretty low bar when compared to stories told in other mediums. That’s not a bad thing. Just saying, creative writers would be wasted on video game stories.

Depends, i'd say the best videogame stories utilize the medium in its favor in ways other mediums can't. Half Life is an excellent example of that.

 

[Little Chicken]

No life experience.

 

[GHound]

Because eighty gorillion percent of zoomers suffer from Aphantasia and/or ADHD.

 

[Majormaxxx]

Kotor, Jade Empire, Mass Effect were written by Drew Karpyshyn - an actual writer

Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis was written by Hal Barwood - an actual director, writer and screenwriter

Jedi Outcast was written by Michael Stemmle - a career designer, script writer who worked on Fate of Atlantis, Monkey Island etc.

New games are written by 27 year old literal morons with degrees in gender studies who are NOT interested in gaming but in being paid for their feminist and lgtv+ activism in written form.

 

[sigmaZ]

It's hard to narrow it down to one thing, but I think there's a lot more focus on character or social narratives as opposed to classic moral ones (good vs evil; overcoming adversity; stoicism, etc.). There's also a lot more dialoguing (this is not limited to games) where characters just chat adding nothing to the plot action or narrative.

 

[Esppiral]

The answer is corporate agendas

 

[ToadMan]

ToadMan
No TLOU2 was trash, a lot of convenience to push the story forward or in the direction they wanted.
Which is trash writing.

That's how an Artist communicates their intent to the receiver.

"Fact is a poor story teller," Maugham once observed. It rambles, is haphazard, and tails off untidily. The writer, he claimed, needs to impose the discipline of a beginning, a middle, and an end.

You didn't get it - that's fine, much art isn't appreciated at first, if at all.

But beyond doubt is that TLOU 1 + in particular 2, brought concepts into video game story telling that weren't present before. That's why TLOU 1 + 2 are still talked about today, and translated so well to non-gaming mediums.

It's common with art that the first attempts are often challenging to people. Which isn't to say TLOU writing is particularly innovative in terms of writing as a whole, just videogame writing - the things it does have been done to death in other mediums. TLOU brought those concepts to videogames and some gamers didn't want to be challenged by the writing decisions - that's art.

 

[SHA]

I'm not judging their state of mind, they just haven't seen anything yet.

 

[LordCBH]

Because to make it these days you have to be an activist first and a writer second, or else you’ll get blacklisted

 

[LazyParrot]

How the hell is Half-Life an example of good writing? Half the "dialogue" in that game is scientists screaming and grunts yelling at you.

And that was more or less normal back then, especially for shooters. Games like Torment or KOTOR were exceptions even within the RPG genre.

I absolutely love Torment, but the writing in that game is on the level of a decent fantasy paperback. It's really only notable because as far as games go, that's still WAY above average.

 

[_Ex_]

I am hating on the creative hacks that endlessly emulate the trope he pioneered.

Joss Whedon didn't pioneer that character trope. Kevin Smith did with his earlier films.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Game writing of the past was always low quality, but there was several gems that could be named and stood out. From Monkey Island to Bioshock. Characters silly to serious.
Silly is missing from today's games. Why so serious?

 

[Danknugz]

pobably for similar reasons no new games are good, people hire their friends, sons / daughters, or sons and daughters of friends. talent can come later, we need to be sure our closest one are taken care of and have cushy jobs