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[nordique]

Smartest from what angle? Profit? I'd give them that. It definitely wasn't a smart move from a "hardcore franchise" point of view. And it definitely isn't smart from a share price point of view either.



As I said it was brilliant as far as profit goes but little else.

Their online was for the most part awful.
Their shopping experience was shit.
They hardly even showcased their own motion+ tech.
They never took advantage of their Wii Connect 24 in any meaningful way

Engines like UE play a big part in game development and Nintendo just ignored them. I imagine they never once went to the major third parties to ask what they wanted as the industry started going through the tech revolution (Shaders etc). If they did, they went to the same ones that supported the GC (based on that statement by Iwata about people with experience on GC being set up for Wii), or just ignored them.

If they had have gone to, say, Epic or Crytek or EA back then to get their input on where they tech was going I'm sure those 3rd parties would have said "Dudes, make it as cheap as you want but just make the core tech is shader based. It's all going that way.".

I'd be my left nut Nintendo could have put in base shader support, kept the console SD and lower end like the Wii and they still would have made a killing and also had tonnes more 3rd party support.



Yeah but look at them, seriously. A lot of casual titles of no interest to me. A few nice ones to see like Epic Mickey, Rayman and CoD. RedSteel was launch so it gets a free ride. RE:4 was a gamecube game.

Overall I think it's a pretty underwhelming list as far as core 3rd party franchises go.

I am not doubting their 3rd party situation was unfortunate. I think that is pretty clear. Also, I did game on my 360 and PS3 more than Wii overall I would say. So I am not in disagreement regarding hardcore priorities. And yes, at times it may seem Nintendo is behind the times on that.


But why would this warrant a swift kick to the family jewels for Iwata? How were they "incredibly arrogant" and "shortsighted"?

This I fail to see, and your reasoning here does not explain that.


Your logic when you mention Unreal as an example is flawed, since Nintendo had their design by that time.

In hindsight, even Nintendo acknowledged they were wrong, so I don't see what the issue is. There are so many factors they could not have foreseen in 2004/2005 when they were finalizing their business model for the Wii, all the way to leading up to launch.

One must consider the transitional stage they were in, the fact they were braving a new portable, and facing doom & gloom articles among stiff competition from the PS2. Their "traditional way" of thinking did not suit them well.



Put in another, more simpler way, had Iwata not had the balls in the first place to do something drastic, and very much needed regardless of subjective opinions of the console, you may very well have not been able to anticipate a Wii U release today.




edit - as an added note, it should be quite apparent that Nintendo has no control over what third parties choose to do. Nintendo learned the hard way why games such as GTA did not appear on their system even though Reggie tried his best to court Take-Two for a Wii GTA.

Again, don't forget the current people behind Nintendo have only been at this since the DS and Wii launch. The "Iwata era" has much more potential than the Yamauchi era ever did, in my opinion.

 

[abasm]

On the bright side, the Wii U supports Wiimotes, and the Motion+ is now standard for all controllers. It's not splitting the market in the same way it did on release, so both Nintendo and third-parties could take advantage of the tech without feeling obligated to bundle in a controller or dongle with the software. (As Nintendo did with nearly every major Motion+ release.)

 

[Linkhero1]

If games are as easy to port as Vigil said, I don't see why it would be an issue.

Didn't they say later on it was a bit more difficult to port or am I mistaken?

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Why are people celebrating this? I mean, it's great if it's true, but do we have any confirmation or is this all speculation?

people love IdeaMan post even when they are vague and hardly say anything it gives us a fuzzy feeling that we have an insider posting real news... it keeps the insane levels calm

we need our daily IdeaMan posts... when it all turns out false we can see everyone scream for a perm ban

 

[GameplayWhore]

Why are people celebrating this? I mean, it's great if it's true, but do we have any confirmation or is this all speculation?

The person who is posting it is IdeaMan. He was, according to lherre*, confirmed to be someone who has verifiable information about the Wii U, though he is not on the confirmed list from the mods on account of him not actually being a developer.

Most people in these threads trust him with reservations. Anyway, if he says something, there's a really decent chance that it's correct, though understand that the reporting may be very subjective.


*Lherre is one of the people who have been confirmed by mods to have access to Wii U devkits, I understand.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

The person who is posting it is IdeaMan. He was, according to lherre*, confirmed to be someone who has verifiable information about the Wii U, though he is not on the confirmed list from the mods on account of him not actually being a developer.

Most people in these threads trust him with reservations. Anyway, if he says something, there's a really decent chance that it's correct, though understand that the reporting may be very subjective.


*Lherre is one of the people who have been confirmed by mods to have access to Wii U devkits, I understand.

you forgot to say kidnapped by Ninjas soon after said confirmation

 

[Linkhero1]

you forgot to say kidnapped by Ninjas soon after said confirmation

When was the last time he posted in a Wii Speculation thread? I don't remember seeing him post in the last thread.

 

[Roo]

you forgot to say kidnapped by Ninjas soon after said confirmation

God bless his soul

 

[Smiles and Cries]

When was the last time he posted in a Wii Speculation thread? I don't remember seeing him post in the last thread.

the guy could seriously lose his job messing with us why risk it?

 

[Vinci]

The Wii and DS combined grew the active gaming audience by a noticeable degree. Apple's hardware has done the same, but Nintendo began this process. From the standpoint of a gaming-only company, that's far more important than making irrational 3rd parties happy. Don't get me wrong: Nintendo could have used the 3rd parties' support, but in the big scheme of things, the company benefited immensely from its strategy. So yes, I would argue that the Wii was perhaps the most brilliant console strategy ever. It was risky, it was innovative. But Nintendo and its IPs are suddenly in the minds of millions of people that likely hadn't thought about them in over a decade.

 

[Linkhero1]

the guy could seriously lose his job messing with us why risk it?

I know that. I was asking when was the last time he posted...

 

[GameplayWhore]

Nintendo made Wii Connect 24 sound like the coolest idea ever but it seriously wasn't anywhere close to how they described it. I thought they way they described it was your system would always be online and they would send you new levels, new characters, new features even when you weren't playing to expand the game play of older games. But it was nothing like that. It was just updates to fix bugs or update your system so it won't play Wii hack stuff.

…pissed me off so much. Instead of defaulting to a normal low-power sleep mode, it defaults to a much higher power mode where it's … being useless. Heck, it seems like the only function of WC24 was to query the servers for an update, but it could have just done that when you turned the machine on!

That was actually a pretty legitimate example of Nintendo "not getting it".

 

[Akai]

I know that. I was asking when was the last time he posted...

Just a couple days ago? =3

 

[Linkhero1]

…pissed me off so much. Instead of defaulting to a normal low-power sleep mode, it defaults to a much higher power mode where it's … being useless. Heck, it seems like the only function of WC24 was to query the servers for an update, but it could have just done that when you turned the machine on!

That was actually a pretty legitimate example of Nintendo "not getting it".

Could you explain this a bit more? I didn't know this. I thought they said it was in a lower-power sleep mode while in WC24.

Just a couple days ago? =3

You know what I meant

 

[Akai]

…pissed me off so much. Instead of defaulting to a normal low-power sleep mode, it defaults to a much higher power mode where it's … being useless. Heck, it seems like the only function of WC24 was to query the servers for an update, but it could have just done that when you turned the machine on!

That was actually a pretty legitimate example of Nintendo "not getting it".

I consider it an experiment that brought along the far superior 3DS SpotPass...

 

[GameplayWhore]

When was the last time he posted in a Wii Speculation thread? I don't remember seeing him post in the last thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=36780576&highlight=#post36780576

Less than a week ago. Some people don't feel the need to come to NeoGAF every day.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Just a couple days ago? =3

he confirmed WiiU < 360?

 

[Linkhero1]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=36780576&highlight=#post36780576

Less than a week ago. Some people don't feel the need to come to NeoGAF every day.

Thank you kind sir. I tend to miss these things from time to time

 

[GameplayWhore]

Could you explain this a bit more? I didn't know this. I thought they said it was in a lower-power sleep mode while in WC24.

I mean compared to a machine that was completely suspended, that's all. It's not a big difference. According to this person, it uses about 10W when in this "off" mode. The *real* suspend mode on the system used a tenth as much. It was just a pointless waste of power, albeit not a huge pointless waste.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=36780576&highlight=#post36780576

Less than a week ago. Some people don't feel the need to come to NeoGAF every day.

and a very informative post it was :3

 

[LOCK]

I find this info about the CPU to fall under the obvious category.

 

[Akai]

he confirmed WiiU < 360?

Oh no, you just didn't...

 

[GameplayWhore]

he confirmed WiiU < 360?

Stalk away. I believe he was in the camp of suggesting that there were some areas where the Wii U was the same as the Xbox 360 and some areas which it was appreciably (albeit not staggeringly) faster, though my memory can deceive me. But I'm having soup now and not interested in further archæology at this time.

 

[Linkhero1]

I mean compared to a machine that was completely suspended, that's all. It's not a big difference. According to this person, it uses about 10W when in this "off" mode. The *real* suspend mode on the system used a tenth as much. It was just a pointless waste of power, albeit not a huge pointless waste.

It is a waste of power if you leave WC 24 on all the time. They could have done so much with WC 24, but as others have mentioned it seems like they're heading in that direction.

 

[Diablos54]

Less than a week ago. Some people don't feel the need to come to NeoGAF every day.

What is wrong with some people!?

 

[axisofweevils]

It is a waste of power if you leave WC 24 on all the time. They could have done so much with WC 24, but as others have mentioned it seems like they're heading in that direction.

WC24 seems like the forerunner of the 3DS Spotpass system - which thankfully works much better.

 

[wsippel]

Nintendo made Wii Connect 24 sound like the coolest idea ever but it seriously wasn't anywhere close to how they described it. I thought they way they described it was your system would always be online and they would send you new levels, new characters, new features even when you weren't playing to expand the game play of older games. But it was nothing like that. It was just updates to fix bugs or update your system so it won't play Wii hack stuff.

SpotPass kind of delivers on WiiConnects promise. Still heavily underutilized and the integration is shit, though. For one, it would be ideal for digital delivery, but without episodic games on the eShop, that doesn't really work. At the very least, Nintendo could offer preorders on the eShop - 10% off for preorders, automatically delivered via SpotPass on release. Integration wise, the system really needs some sort of ticker. The top screen isn't really used for anything worthwhile as is, so why couldn't you highlight an icon on the bottom screen and a ticker on the top screen tells you what SpotPass recently fetched for that app, what's new on the eShop and the like? I really don't understand why the system menu is never updated, either. Where the fuck are my folders? In fact, I have so much shit on my menu that I'd need folders and a search function by now...

 

[Azure J]

The Wii and DS combined grew the active gaming audience by a noticeable degree. Apple's hardware has done the same, but Nintendo began this process. From the standpoint of a gaming-only company, that's far more important than making irrational 3rd parties happy. Don't get me wrong: Nintendo could have used the 3rd parties' support, but in the big scheme of things, the company benefited immensely from its strategy. So yes, I would argue that the Wii was perhaps the most brilliant console strategy ever. It was risky, it was innovative. But Nintendo and its IPs are suddenly in the minds of millions of people that likely hadn't thought about them in over a decade.

Never have I seen this point laid out so perfectly before, even if it's exactly what I have been thinking for quite some time. Good show Vinci, especially the bolded.

 

[GameplayWhore]

WC24 seems like the forerunner of the 3DS Spotpass system - which thankfully works much better.

I'm not too familiar with how it works (my first dual screen Nintendo system -- not counting the Virtual Boy, but that's cheating -- will likely be a later version of the 3DS). Is that the thing where you walk near somebody else who has a system and it exchanges game information -- like, your Street Fighter guys get into a fight while you're on the train, and you read about it later?

 

[Linkhero1]

I'm not too familiar with how it works (my first dual screen Nintendo system -- not counting the Virtual Boy, but that's cheating -- will likely be a later version of the 3DS). Is that the thing where you walk near somebody else who has a system and it exchanges game information -- like, your Street Fighter guys get into a fight while you're on the train, and you read about it later?

Yes but you can also download from eShop and put it in sleep mode. It will download the entire game/demo in that state.

 

[Akai]

I'm not too familiar with how it works (my first dual screen Nintendo system -- not counting the Virtual Boy, but that's cheating -- will likely be a later version of the 3DS). Is that the thing where you walk near somebody else who has a system and it exchanges game information -- like, your Street Fighter guys get into a fight while you're on the train, and you read about it later?

You can send/receive goodies to your friends, and also receive new game data from Ninty in certain games just by leaving your system in sleep mode within range of a wireless access point. For example, Tecmo-Koei sent out daily costumes for DOA and new stages for Samurai Warriors. Ninty sends out ghost data for Mario Kart and weapon gems for Kid Icarus...

This is SpotPass. What you are thinking of is StreetPass...

 

[wsippel]

I'm not too familiar with how it works (my first dual screen Nintendo system -- not counting the Virtual Boy, but that's cheating -- will likely be a later version of the 3DS). Is that the thing where you walk near somebody else who has a system and it exchanges game information -- like, your Street Fighter guys get into a fight while you're on the train, and you read about it later?

That would be StreetPass. SpotPass automatically downloads stuff from the internet whenever the 3DS has a connection. Free DLC (and not just for the game currently inserted), leaderboard updates, content for Nintendo Video, messages and stuff. It's pretty much what WiiConnect24 was supposed to be. But as I said, it's still underutilized and not exactly well integrated.

 

[Haint]

Well, I personally have mixed feelings about the choices they made with the Wii hardware. On the one hand I totally get the decision. The "investments" MS and Sony made with their hardware resulted in massive losses, a rise in the cost of hardware + games and BS DLC to milk even more out of a user base that frankly shrank for everybody who wasn't Nintendo. When everybody else contracted, they succeeded in expanding the industry so clearly the decision was right. I have literally thousands of hours sunk into my Wii so it's not like I feel it was a ripoff by any stretch.

My issues with this line of thinking is that nothing Nintendo accomplished with Wii would have been changed by less embarrassing hardware. Everybody likes to talk about it in the extremes. It's either lose $500 per console and have 100 million dollar budgets, or overclock the Gamecube and enjoy 6 more years of last-gen. Where's the middle ground? They did NOT have to release this tremendous loss leader that was at (or even near) parity with PS360 to have a better shot at serious third parties and core gamers. They just needed something that was intelligently designed (see Gamecube in 2001), based on a (then) contemporary architecture, and was clearly beyond last-gen. Maybe this means they sold it at $279, maybe they even lost $20 a unit for the first year. Succeed or fail, it wouldn't have really mattered. The risk would have been so minor, and their resources so plentiful, the difference between the Wii we got and this proposed Super Wii would have been like a fart in the wind financially. Fact of the matter is, they pinched pennies and you got a much lesser product because of it. I would hazard a guess you would have enjoyed your "thousands of hours" a lot more if the graphics were more pleasing, or the developers were able to do bigger and better things.

 

[BurntPork]

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see RE6 on Wii U. The fact that it comes out so soon means it was in development way before the Wii U was even a rumour.

The same could be said of AC3.

 

[v1oz]

I find this info about the CPU to fall under the obvious category.

lol its been 6 years after all.

 

[lenovox1]

My issues with this line of thinking is that nothing Nintendo accomplished with Wii would have changed with less embarrassing hardware. Everybody likes to talk about it in the extremes. It's either lose $500 per console and have 100 million dollar budgets, or overclock the Gamecube and enjoy 6 more years of last-gen. Where's the middle ground? They did NOT have to release this tremendous loss leader that was at (or even near) parity with PS360 to have a better shot at serious third parties and core gamers. They just needed something that was intelligently designed (see Gamecube in 2001), based on a (then) contemporary architecture, and was clearly beyond last-gen. Maybe this means they sold it at $279, maybe they even lost $20 a unit for the first year. Succeed or fail, it wouldn't have really mattered. The risk would have been so minor, and their resources so plentiful, the difference between a failing Wii and failing Super Wii would have been a fart in the wind. Fact of the matter is, they pinched pennies and you got a much lesser product because of it. I would hazard a guess you would have enjoyed your "thousands of hours" a lot more if the graphics were more pleasing, or the developers were able to do bigger and better things.

We don't know how much the theoretical PS360-like Wii would have cost to build or would have cost us to buy or any other details.

And the Nintendo that developed the Wii and the Nintendo that exists now are in two different positions. I feel like you're looking at Nintendo from a level that would have been impossible for Nintendo 2005 to look from themselves. It's obvious from previous interviews that Nintendo was unaware about how things like graphics and online functionality would impact their market. The Xbox 360 and PS3 have also advanced and matured by leaps and bounds since the beginning of the generation, which is something else that would have been impossible to take into consideration.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Nintendo thought the Wii as they released it would've been good enough for 6 years. They didn't think the things that ended being important to third-parties were going to be important. They thought that they could dominate with marketshare and low-development cost (like how they dominated with the DS, for example), but it didn't work out that way.

 

[NBtoaster]

Well, I personally have mixed feelings about the choices they made with the Wii hardware. On the one hand I totally get the decision. The "investments" MS and Sony made with their hardware resulted in massive losses, a rise in the cost of hardware + games and BS DLC to milk even more out of a user base that frankly shrank for everybody who wasn't Nintendo. When everybody else contracted, they succeeded in expanding the industry so clearly the decision was right. I have literally thousands of hours sunk into my Wii so it's not like I feel it was a ripoff by any stretch.

Microsoft's console userbase has increased dramitically. And investing in a DLC friendly infrastructure is a good thing, it's how you offset rising hardware and software dev costs.

 

[TheCongressman1]

My issues with this line of thinking is that nothing Nintendo accomplished with Wii would have been changed by less embarrassing hardware. Everybody likes to talk about it in the extremes. It's either lose $500 per console and have 100 million dollar budgets, or overclock the Gamecube and enjoy 6 more years of last-gen. Where's the middle ground? They did NOT have to release this tremendous loss leader that was at (or even near) parity with PS360 to have a better shot at serious third parties and core gamers. They just needed something that was intelligently designed (see Gamecube in 2001), based on a (then) contemporary architecture, and was clearly beyond last-gen. Maybe this means they sold it at $279, maybe they even lost $20 a unit for the first year. Succeed or fail, it wouldn't have really mattered. The risk would have been so minor, and their resources so plentiful, the difference between the Wii we got and this proposed Super Wii would have been like a fart in the wind financially. Fact of the matter is, they pinched pennies and you got a much lesser product because of it. I would hazard a guess you would have enjoyed your "thousands of hours" a lot more if the graphics were more pleasing, or the developers were able to do bigger and better things.

No argument here. I just hope they don't walk down that path this time around, which doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Glorified G]

My issues with this line of thinking is that nothing Nintendo accomplished with Wii would have been changed by less embarrassing hardware. Everybody likes to talk about it in the extremes. It's either lose $500 per console and have 100 million dollar budgets, or overclock the Gamecube and enjoy 6 more years of last-gen. Where's the middle ground? They did NOT have to release this tremendous loss leader that was at (or even near) parity with PS360 to have a better shot at serious third parties and core gamers. They just needed something that was intelligently designed (see Gamecube in 2001), based on a (then) contemporary architecture, and was clearly beyond last-gen. Maybe this means they sold it at $279, maybe they even lost $20 a unit for the first year. Succeed or fail, it wouldn't have really mattered. The risk would have been so minor, and their resources so plentiful, the difference between the Wii we got and this proposed Super Wii would have been like a fart in the wind financially. Fact of the matter is, they pinched pennies and you got a much lesser product because of it. I would hazard a guess you would have enjoyed your "thousands of hours" a lot more if the graphics were more pleasing, or the developers were able to do bigger and better things.

 

[jacksrb]

Nintendo made Wii Connect 24 sound like the coolest idea ever but it seriously wasn't anywhere close to how they described it. I thought they way they described it was your system would always be online and they would send you new levels, new characters, new features even when you weren't playing to expand the game play of older games. But it was nothing like that. It was just updates to fix bugs or update your system so it won't play Wii hack stuff.

True dat. I don't think Nintendo ever sent a new weapon or level for all of their talk (although I don't play Animal Crossing). The promise of the blue light was much more of a lie.

Do you think they will push downloadable releases more so in Wii U? I hope that if they put SMB Mii out that a) that include a level editor and that b) more levels will auto download...

 

[LOCK]

We don't know how much the theoretical PS360-like Wii would have cost to build or would have cost us to buy or any other details.

And the Nintendo that developed the Wii and the Nintendo that exists now are in two different positions. I feel like you're looking at Nintendo from a level that would have been impossible for Nintendo 2005 to look from themselves. It's obvious from previous interviews that Nintendo was unaware about how things like graphics and online functionality would impact their market. The Xbox 360 and PS3 have also advanced and matured by leaps and bounds since the beginning of the generation, which is something else that would have been impossible to take into consideration.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Nintendo thought the Wii as they released it would've been good enough for 6 years. They didn't think the things that ended being important to third-parties were going to be important. They thought that they could dominate with marketshare and low-development cost (like how they dominated with the DS, for example), but it didn't work out that way.

I really think the Wii was a gamble, they were even shocked over its success. I think the Wii was like a two or three year console that could have been sold for less if audience excitement wasn't there.

Once success of the Wii occurred it would have been foolish to waste the opportunity to sell for more years.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I find this info about the CPU to fall under the obvious category.

Not to mention the info is buried in the previous threads already.

 

[GameplayWhore]

gif

Aw, man, you broke the streak! We managed to have 222 posts in a row with actual conversation instead of reaction pics. :|

I really think the Wii was a gamble, they were even shocked over its success. I think the Wii was like a two or three year console that could have been sold for less if audience excitement wasn't there.

Once success of the Wii occurred it would have been foolish to waste the opportunity to sell for more years.

Yeah, Nintendo was pretty much written off by everyone at that point. I had a sort of vague inkling that they might be able to sneak into the first place spot by being the "secondary console" for both Xbox 360 and PS3 users, but the endless weeks of sellouts were pretty surprising to everybody but that one crazy poster whose name I no longer remember.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Not to mention the info is buried in the previous threads already.

Was it? I didn't recall hearing about the L1 and L2 cache having lower latencies than the cpu on the 360. The other thing, about it having different ISA extensions, is something that many of us sort of assumed, but I don't know if it was mentioned by any leaks (this one probably was).

 

[bgassassin]

Aw, man, you broke the streak! We managed to have 222 posts in a row with actual conversation instead of reaction pics. :|

 

[GDGF]

They should make a Bravestarr WiiU game.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Was it? I didn't recall hearing about the L1 and L2 cache having lower latencies than the cpu on the 360. The other thing, about it having different ISA extensions, is something that many of us sort of assumed, but I don't know if it was mentioned by any leaks (this one probably was).

The fact that IBM has stated it's based off POWER7. The SRAM it uses for L1 and L2 is by nature lower latency than that in Xenos.

http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/02/two-billion-transistor-beasts-power7-and-niagara-3.ars

Obviously, Wii U won't house a stock POWER7, but that particular feature is a damn safe bet, knowing Nintendo's focus on low latency in the GCN/Wii hardware and their decision to include eDRAM in Wii U.

 

[bgassassin]

They should make a Bravestarr WiiU game.

I'd buy it only if Thirty-Thirty keeps his "80s big hair".

 

[Deguello]

Microsoft's console userbase has increased dramitically. And investing in a DLC friendly infrastructure is a good thing, it's how you offset rising hardware and software dev costs.

Well snap here I thought being prudent about software development and setting rational goals about hardware capabilities was the best way to offset rising costs. Turns out gouging customers is the answer! What a glorious future!

 

[GameplayWhore]

They should make a Bravestarr WiiU game.

Oh, is that what he's from? I've been watching "Galaxy Rangers", as a friend is a huge fan of it but I somehow missed it totally when I was younger. Needless to say, I was a bit thrown off there.