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[DarkMage619]

HW has an influence in how you use your man power and the budget you will need. As masterful as the MSFS port for XSS was, had they invested the time to only optimise the XSX profile (lots less RAM worries) would the game have been better? With a digital only XSX (512 GB storage) they would have had one single profile.
For other devs it would be higher costs, or aim lower, or leave the lower end HW less optimised.

I see you mention frequently that MS should have built a XSX without a drive. MS is already struggling to build normal XSX systems. A discless version would have MS selling even fewer devices in total because the SOC is the same. It would cost more for MS AND it would cost more for customers. It also would not be the cheap entryway to the Xbox ecosystem that the XSS is now. Your desire didn't align with what MS is trying to do. I personally would have loved if the XSX had 20GB of RAM and 2TB of storage but it doesn't mean that would have been the best strategy to achieve their aims.

Your comments about Flight Sim are interesting seeing how the game is on PC, XSS and XSX right now. Do you honestly think that the XSS version of the game negatively affected the PC release, a game that predates the XSS' release? If anything the XSS version got the game to undergo additional optimizations seeing how originally the game wasn't a fantastic performer even on high end systems. There has never been any evidence that the XSS is hurting game development and it is quite telling that the biggest complainers of the system don't own it and aren't affected by its existence.

 

[Bulletbrain]

I see the theorised business value for MS and the strategy they wanted to impose on home consoles, whether it is user value or value to developers is another matter (it still keeps the minimum bar lower holding the highest specs down or risks being left behind in non high profile cases MS is not throwing huge piles of money in).
I am not seeing more than an appeal to authority argument here while XSS is still not flying off the shelves. I am not sure why some core Xbox fans do not want to entertain the notion than a $349-399 cheaper digital only XSX with reduced disk storage would have made the Xbox Series platform better and would have allowed the game devs to set higher baselines for consoles and PC also as a result, but hey… .

MS was attempting to change the rules of the home console race, to disrupt it with a pincher manoeuvre over what they though was going to be a single $449-499 PS5 SKU.

Value to consumers - I think you are grossly underestimating the importance of price point for consumers in developing markets. XSS is a whole USD 100 cheaper than PS5D. For someone in a developing country (like me) that is a quite a big deal. Plus those in developing markets are still stuck with a 1080p TV or monitor. XSS is ideal for those people imo.

Holding higher specced versions down - I assume you meant the the XSX here? If that's the case, there isn't too much holding back as far as I can see. Both consoles have identical CPUs. Anything related to game systems, AI routines will be identical between the two. What XSS lacks is the graphical horsepower. That just means a lower resolution, lower settings or maybe lower framerate. Yes, its not ideal, but does this constitute being held back? I don't think so.

XSS sales - I looked but could not find any quantified details about XSS sales. Specially about XSS being left unsold. Do you have a link maybe that that illustrates your assertion?

A USD 349-399 machine - Sure maybe MS could have gone for such and option. But we never know what exactly the spec of such a machine could be. Maybe it didn't make financial sense to make a digital version with lower storage, given the price points they want to hit in emerging markets. The important fact is how the market is reacting to the options they did put out.

 

[Martinski43]

Also this isn't a machine that is 'meant' for the early adopters and the so called 'hardcore' crowd that buys the latest and greatest tech, that is the reason why it's not flying of the shelves in some markets since some markets are less casual and only really care for the high end stuff.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

A USD 349-399 machine - Sure maybe MS could have gone for such and option. But we never know what exactly the spec of such a machine could be. Maybe it didn't make financial sense to make a digital version with lower storage, given the price points they want to hit in emerging markets. The important fact is how the market is reacting to the options they did put out.

How exactly will MS sell 52CU, 12 TF machine for $349 is beyond me.

SX SOC is quiet a bit larger than PS5 one.

Even they are taking huge hit on PS5 digital and are barely manufacturing any of those.

 

[Potato Chip PRO]

Series S is an fine gaming machine for it's price. Really happy with mine as the Series X is extremely difficult to buy at retail price or even buy one without fighting bots/Scalpers. It should be my main for a few years.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Also this isn't a machine that is 'meant' for the early adopters and the so called 'hardcore' crowd that buys the latest and greatest tech, that is the reason why it's not flying of the shelves in some markets since some markets are less casual and only really care for the high end stuff.

So it is a machine which is still expensive enough for developing countries (regional pricing and higher levels mass market production and cost reduced models help) and not something people in the core market need or want particularly… .

 

[DarkMage619]

So it is a machine which is still expensive enough for developing countries (regional pricing and higher levels mass market production and cost reduced models help) and not something people in the core market need or want particularly… .

And that is remedied by releasing a MORE expensive and difficult to produce console? MS has devices that cater to the hardcore and casual right now. They don't need multiple hardcore devices. I wonder if some people are advocating things for MS to do so they fail...

 

[Schmick]

Quite how anyone can question the power potential of XSS when it runs the most demanding game this gen so far (even after the latest optimisation the game has gone through). And this isn't even mentioning FH5 which looks damn impressive.

I have seen plenty of comments made about games improving on a technical level as a generation progresses because developers grow to understand the hardware more, this will apply to the XSS as well.

I'd like to know which gamer, if ever, would be able to tell whether a game is held back because of XSS.

Let's have a run down;

Sony fanboy - seems concerned for no good reason other than thinking that 3rd party games will be held back by the XSS when there are PC's less powerful however there are quite a few people touting BF2042 as the best looking game this year. XSS will not affect any Sony exclusives (but low end PC's might).

Sony fanboy with a interest in a Xbox - Has the option for a cheaper second console. Avid Sony fanboys should be perfectly fine with this since the lesser Sony fanboy now has access to MS first party games and its really all about the gaming not a plastic box.

Xbox fanboy - Will most likely opt for the XSX but has the option of a cheaper option or a cheaper second console. Happy gamer.

Causal gamer - For the first time ever a casual gamer can buy into a next gen console at the beginning of a generation at a budget price. This is clearly a positive thing. There is no way why anyone should be thinking that next gen consoles are there for the privileged few.

 

[dcmk7]

Really sad to see people would defend a bit of plastic so hard, as if they are emotionally invested in it.

 

[DarkMage619]

Really sad to see people would defend a bit of plastic so hard, as if they are emotionally invested in it.

It's even more sad to see people call MS engineers liars, make baseless claims about the 'bit of plastic' holding back an entire generation of games, and pop into threads to trash talk a device they don't own or plan to in the future. People being emotionally invested in a product they own I get, being emotionally invested in the failure of a company speaks to the need to seek professional help.

 

[dcmk7]

It's even more sad to see people call MS engineers liars, make baseless claims about the 'bit of plastic' holding back an entire generation of games, and pop into threads to trash talk a device they don't own or plan to in the future. People being emotionally invested in a product they own I get, being emotionally invested in the failure of a company speaks to the need to seek professional help.

Trolling yet again?

You've posted in this specific thread nearly 20 times attacking various users. What's your problem with opinions, why do differing opinions warrant attacks and antagonising behaviour from you? Don't get it.

The above post of yours is full of lies and half truths and it reads like the rambling of someone way too emotionally invested in warring.

It's just a bit of plastic man. Digital Foundry downbeat forecast surely can't upset someone that much? There's been more gloomier predictions from developers.. even people from within MS's own first party studios themselves.

Surely it's about time you learn to cope and not let it upset you anymore.

If it doesn't succeed MS will kill it and move on just like the Kinect and X1 combination. It's not important in the grand scheme of things. Life goes on.

 

[Hestar69]

I'm loving the Series s honestly. down the road i'll get a ps5 and upgrade to the series X.but for now my only complaint is I cant play RDR 2 and immortals on it since it can't play discs sadly.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Have to hand it to Xbox for the construction of this thing.

For the few months I owned a Series S, I never heard the thing running and this is no BS. I was often sitting at my desk playing after work so I would be less than 60cm away from it and running all sorts of games in absolute silence.
Forza Horizon 4, Division 2, Fallout 4, Gears 5, and you can't hear it run sitting that close it. Fucking black magic I tell you.

EDIT: Kindly fuck off to the person laughing at my post

 

[Kappa]

Enjoying playing ori set to 4k 60fps and hdr on my series s right now. Such a good machine

 

[Schmick]

Trolling yet again?

You've posted in this specific thread nearly 20 times attacking various users. What's your problem with opinions, why do differing opinions warrant attacks and antagonising behaviour from you? Don't get it.

The above post of yours is full of lies and half truths and it reads like the rambling of someone way too emotionally invested in warring.

It's just a bit of plastic man. Digital Foundry downbeat forecast surely can't upset someone that much? There's been more gloomier predictions from developers.. even people from within MS's own first party studios themselves.

Surely it's about time you learn to cope and not let it upset you anymore.

If it doesn't succeed MS will kill it and move on just like the Kinect and X1 combination. It's not important in the grand scheme of things. Life goes on.

I'm not emotionally invested in any warring or plastic. I'm a gamer and happily play any game on any system so you yourself can take your warring approach and chuck it out the window.

I stated my opinion and added a little bit of banter. Gaf needs to chill.

 

[dcmk7]

I'm not emotionally invested in any warring or plastic. I'm a gamer and happily play any game on any system so you yourself can take your warring approach and chuck it out the window.

I stated my opinion and added a little bit of banter. Gaf needs to chill.

Maybe re-read my post. It was along the the same lines as what you've just written.

 

[Schmick]

Maybe re-read my post. It was along the the same lines as what you've just written. That someone here needs to chill and not antagonise people for having a differing opinion in this thread.

My bad, I read "The above post of yours is full of lies and half truths...." as being the post i posted only just above. Its late here

 

[Topher]

It's even more sad to see people call MS engineers liars, make baseless claims about the 'bit of plastic' holding back an entire generation of games, and pop into threads to trash talk a device they don't own or plan to in the future. People being emotionally invested in a product they own I get, being emotionally invested in the failure of a company speaks to the need to seek professional help.

There is much of what you complain about in the PS5 M.2 expansion thread. Calling Sony liars. Talking trash about what Sony has done. I'm not going to drudge up past posts but you could easily make these same complaints about others you agree with about PS5 expansion solution.

Alas....console war. Yeah....I know. I know.

Have to hand it to Xbox for the construction of this thing.

For the few months I owned a Series S, I never heard the thing running and this is no BS. I was often sitting at my desk playing after work so I would be less than 60cm away from it and running all sorts of games in absolute silence.
Forza Horizon 4, Division 2, Fallout 4, Gears 5, and you can't hear it run sitting that close it. Fucking black magic I tell you.

I liked the sound it made when it turned on. A happy sound. That's how I describe it anyway.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

I liked the sound it made when it turned on. A happy sound. That's how I describe it anyway.

Oh yeah for sure. Everything about it is just great. Was able to finally game without my headphones and enjoy my surround sound speakers at low volume unlike my PS4 Pro which pretty much forced me to use headphones to block out that godawful fan noise.

To this day I wonder how the fuck did Sony slip up on PS4 Pro design.

 

[DarkMage619]

There is much of what you complain about in the PS5 M.2 expansion thread. Calling Sony liars. Talking trash about what Sony has done. I'm not going to drudge up past posts but you could easily make these same complaints about others you agree with about PS5 expansion solution.

Alas....console war. Yeah....I know. I know.



I liked the sound it made when it turned on. A happy sound. That's how I describe it anyway.

I claimed the PS5 memory expansion is holding back this generation of gaming?! I called Sony's engineers liars? I pop into Sony threads to attack the console? I actually OWN a PS5. I make factual comments based on a product in my home. To compare that to what people have said about the XSS is completely laughable.

 

[MrHydra933BR]

The real problem of this console is the lack of RAM. It will very probably be a very big issue in the end of the generation.

 

[Topher]

I claimed the PS5 memory expansion is holding back this generation of gaming?! I called Sony's engineers liars? I pop into Sony threads to attack the console? I actually OWN a PS5. I make factual comments based on a product in my home. To compare that to what people have said about the XSS is completely laughable.

I didn't say you now, now did I? You referenced "people", not individuals. I did the same. And owning or not owning something doesn't mean one cannot have an opinion on the subject. Owning something doesn't change your opinion into fact. It is still opinion.

 

[DarkMage619]

I didn't say you now, now did I? You referenced "people", not individuals. I did the same. And owning or not owning something doesn't mean one cannot have an opinion on the subject. Owning something doesn't change your opinion into fact. It is still opinion.

Sure and it's my opinion that people who don't own the XSS and make false statements about the system shouldn't be listened to. It is in no relation to my personal factual experience with a system I own. I'm certain you can see the difference.

 

[anothertech]

I have both digital versions of the consoles. After ps5 digital, XSS really didn't impress me. After a couple months I had to upgrade to the SEX just for load time increase. I gave the S to the kids.

Load times have been the best thing about next gen for me so far haha.

 

[THE DUCK]

I support the notion fully that there is a lot of pretenders on these boards who fully comment on what other people should or should not own, even though they don't own the product or have any intention of buying it.

They are in fact often spreading misinformation based on......conjecture or a misunderstanding of hardware vs either actual hands on / ownership or a proper understanding of the hardware. That or some sort of imaginary standard that doesn't apply to any other hardware on the planet.

 

[THE DUCK]

I have both digital versions of the consoles. After ps5 digital, XSS really didn't impress me. After a couple months I had to upgrade to the SEX just for load time increase. I gave the S to the kids.

Load times have been the best thing about next gen for me so far haha.

I'm confused by this post.....considering xsx doesn't load any faster than xss........

 

[DarkMage619]

I support the notion fully that there is a lot of pretenders on these boards who fully comment on what other people should or should not own, even though they don't own the product or have any intention of buying it.

They are in fact often spreading misinformation based on......conjecture or a misunderstanding of hardware vs either actual hands on / ownership or a proper understanding of the hardware. That or some sort of imaginary standard that doesn't apply to any other hardware on the planet.

I wish those guys would answer your intelligent question about the much higher standard held for the XSS but ignoring the same thing on the other more expensive platforms. It's almost like they aren't being sincere with their criticisms or something...

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

I support the notion fully that there is a lot of pretenders on these boards who fully comment on what other people should or should not own, even though they don't own the product or have any intention of buying it.

They are in fact often spreading misinformation based on......conjecture or a misunderstanding of hardware vs either actual hands on / ownership or a proper understanding of the hardware. That or some sort of imaginary standard that doesn't apply to any other hardware on the planet.

I also support that notion. And also support the notion that a lot of people here have no idea what they're talking about, criticizing hardware without a basic knowledge of anything and think they know better because they have read some articles on DF. If this was the first time I came to GAF, I would assume everyone here is an experienced computer engineer with a vast knowledge of hardware and software. The amount of certainty in some people's posts really makes it seem so (not saying people shouldn't discuss these topics, but don't be a pushover and act like the Lord of the ultimate truth about topics you have no professional background in).

They are closed systems, being discussed by professional outlets. Such professional people discuss based on what they see in front of them. They don't know how things actually work unless MS or Sony tells them so, so they just guess. Nothing is 100% absolute in what they say. The conversations can be fun and gives space for a lot of discussion, but don't act like a fanboy or a bully just because of what you read somewhere.

These people at Sony and MS worked hard to offer the best they can at an acceptable price. They have years and years of hardware and software experience, so I'm pretty sure they did the best they could. Appreciate that, and just enjoy what you own. Let others enjoy what they want.

This is going to fall on deaf ears anyway. Fuck it.

 

[Kappa]

I also support that notion. And also support the notion that a lot of people here have no idea what they're talking about, criticizing hardware without a basic knowledge of anything and think they know better because they have read some articles on DF.

I mean you had the majority of this board thinking the switch refresh would have 4k. Like how out of touch can you be, literally have no idea how electronics work. And you have people saying the series s is holding back consoles cause of less ram

 

[THE DUCK]

So that's why PS5 continues to dominate then?

Price point isn't important. Value is. XSS will always be the "retard pack" of this generation. MS fucked up by releasing it. It's nothing more than an anchor that drags this gen down and causes more headaches for devs

The ps5 is dominating for a few reasons (previous generation, certain exclusives, trust/history, brand recognition, number of units available, etc). Xss has very little to do with its success at this point.

Calling the xss the "retard pack" is derogatory to all xss owners, and flat our wrong. The sales of it and consumer satisfaction to date so far only confirm it was a good idea to launch. And we've gone over this.....it doesn't drag down anything.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The ps5 is dominating for a few reasons (previous generation, certain exclusives, trust/history, brand recognition, number of units available, etc). Xss has very little to do with its success at this point.

Calling the xss the "retard pack" is derogatory to all xss owners, and flat our wrong. The sales of it and consumer satisfaction to date so far only confirm it was a good idea to launch. And we've gone over this.....it doesn't drag down anything.

Of course it drags devs down, they have to develop for a console with significantly less compute power, RAM, and CPU resources. Even Microsoft first party devs from Bethesda have admitted as much

sales are lower than any of the next gen consoles and it's the cheapest. It's a failed experiment that we now have to live with less than a year into the generation, it's going to look comically underpowered when/if mid gen refreshes start showing up

 

[Helghan]

Of course it drags devs down, they have to develop for a console with significantly less compute power, RAM, and CPU resources. Even Microsoft first party devs from Bethesda have admitted as much

sales are lower than any of the next gen consoles and it's the cheapest. It's a failed experiment that we now have to live with less than a year into the generation, it's going to look comically underpowered when/if mid gen refreshes start showing up

CPU resources? It's basically the same CPU... Otherwise the CPU of the PS5 is holding back the XSX.

 

[Bulletbrain]

So that's why PS5 continues to dominate then?

Price point isn't important. Value is. XSS will always be the "retard pack" of this generation. MS fucked up by releasing it. It's nothing more than an anchor that drags this gen down and causes more headaches for devs

Of course Sony has quite a few things going for them. However, I'm interested to know the specific metrics you used to arrive at the conclusion that they are dominating. In any case it is far too early to decide whose strategy will ultimately be successful at the end of this console cycle. I just feel that MS strategy is a solid one. Market expansion via more supported devices, streaming and gamepass. For consumers, it means a cheaper entry point and ultimately more affordable way to continue gaming when the some factions of the market are jacking their prices up.

 

[THE DUCK]

Of course it drags devs down, they have to develop for a console with significantly less compute power, RAM, and CPU resources. Even Microsoft first party devs from Bethesda have admitted as much

sales are lower than any of the next gen consoles and it's the cheapest. It's a failed experiment that we now have to live with less than a year into the generation, it's going to look comically underpowered when/if mid gen refreshes start showing up

It doesn't drag anything down, every xbox game is being developed for pc, at a lower minimum spec than xss, so it makes zero difference. It hasn't failed at all, in fact, I'd say it's likely outperformed it's expectations considering it's price point. (MS likely expected to sell it at $249 but due to hardware shortages chose not to)

 

[DarkMage619]

The ps5 is dominating for a few reasons (previous generation, certain exclusives, trust/history, brand recognition, number of units available, etc). Xss has very little to do with its success at this point.

Calling the xss the "retard pack" is derogatory to all xss owners, and flat our wrong. The sales of it and consumer satisfaction to date so far only confirm it was a good idea to launch. And we've gone over this.....it doesn't drag down anything.

Of course Sony has quite a few things going for them. However, I'm interested to know the specific metrics you used to arrive at the conclusion that they are dominating. In any case it is far too early to decide whose strategy will ultimately be successful at the end of this console cycle. I just feel that MS strategy is a solid one. Market expansion via more supported devices, streaming and gamepass. For consumers, it means a cheaper entry point and ultimately more affordable way to continue gaming when the some factions of the market is jacking their prices up.

CPU resources? It's basically the same CPU... Otherwise the CPU of the PS5 is holding back the XSX.

I appreciate you gentlemen responding to nonsense with intelligent thoughtful responses. I wish everyone here was as enlightened as you guys.

 

[DarkMage619]

It doesn't drag anything down, every xbox game is being developed for pc, at a lower minimum spec than xss, so it makes zero difference. It hasn't failed at all, in fact, I'd say it's likely outperformed it's expectations considering it's price point. (MS likely expected to sell it at $249 but due to hardware shortages chose not to)

I 100% agree. The only thing that gets reduced is the graphics on the XSS version of games and that is by design. Just like games running on a RTX 3060 PC won't look as good as games running on a RTX 3090 PC. Still no one screams at nVidia for making cards of varying power levels. Well said.

 

[ZywyPL]

The real problem of this console is the lack of RAM. It will very probably be a very big issue in the end of the generation.

IMO the biggest problem of the console is how the devs utilize it, sometimes completely misusing the resources and putting them into resolution instead of framerate, and vice versa. The games on XSS should target Full HD resolution, to actually match people's TVs, stuff like Metro running at 60FPS but 575p as a return is a joke in my books, similar case with all those 1440p titles that run at just 30FPS compared to 60 on XSX. Or at very least give people choice with Performance and Resolution modes.

 

[dcmk7]

And you have people saying the series s is holding back consoles cause of less ram

By people are you including developers (even MS first party) and Digital Foundry? The latter not being overly optimistic about its future due to the 'severe cuts' and even go on to say "Specifically, I still think it should have shipped with more memory and a wider interface for more bandwidth."

"..it's still difficult to judge to what extent Series S will be able to keep up in a world where technologies like Unreal Engine 5 are already placing serious demands on Series X and PlayStation 5 hardware."

I can't recall there ever being a next gen console which has shipped with a lower amount of memory than the last.

Time will tell what happens.

 

[THE DUCK]

I think any machine could use more of this or more of that. I dont think it's fair to compare the xss to xbox one x or ps4 pro because a large portion of the buyers are xbox one or ps4 owners. For them, the xss is a definite upgrade, its probably 3 times as powerfull overall.


I think the long term fate of the xss is actually of determined by 3 things at this point.

1. Can they build enough so that they don't run out when they start sling them at $249 or less

2. When will ms go to $249 or less. Imagine how flaming hot the xss would be at $199. We can challenge the hardware design choices, ms was limiting what was in it to keep costs as low as possible so they could eventually move more units at lower mass market prices.

3. The price and availability of xsx and ps5.

If hardware shortages persist through 2022, 2023, xss is pretty much guaranteed to sell through whatever they build. If it frees up, a new lower price could still drive sales.

So much is hung up on the performance.......the switch says hi.

 

[deriks]

Personally, I'd rather it have more SSD space than a disk drive.

You can put a external SSD, not a disk drive

 

[Martinski43]

I fully expect the Serie S haters to hate on the steam deck too, poor devs when they have to make games for that machine.

 

[skit_data]

I fully expect the Serie S haters to hate on the steam deck too, poor devs when they have to make games for that machine.

Steam Deck has really good RAM for something running at 800p

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

I mean you had the majority of this board thinking the switch refresh would have 4k. Like how out of touch can you be, literally have no idea how electronics work. And you have people saying the series s is holding back consoles cause of less ram

For some here, designing a console is just going to a store, grab a few components and slap that shit together. What can you expect?

 

[Martinski43]

Steam Deck has really good RAM for something running at 800p

Sure it has lots of RAM but it's slower GDDR5 while having "only" 1.6 TF. The NVME is also a slower Gen3.

 

[arvfab]

I fully expect the Serie S haters to hate on the steam deck too, poor devs when they have to make games for that machine.

Comparison doesn't make any sense, as devs DON'T HAVE TO make games for the deck, while they are required to put them on the XSS, if they want to put their games on Xbox at all.

And, the deck has more RAM than the XSS (in fact, it has the same amount as the proper next-gen consoles), which is exactly the spec devs are complaining about.

 

[phil_t98]

So it is a machine which is still expensive enough for developing countries (regional pricing and higher levels mass market production and cost reduced models help) and not something people in the core market need or want particularly… .

Hasn't it been said on here that the PS5 digital is manufactured less the the full ps5 and they taking a loss on it?

if that's the case then Microsoft hit the sweet spot by having an S console.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Hasn't it been said on here that the PS5 digital is manufactured less the the full ps5 and they taking a loss on it?

if that's the case then Microsoft hit the sweet spot by having an S console.

Should not we hail it as a great deal in gaming ?

 

[phil_t98]

Should not we hail it as a great deal in gaming ?

So you not answer the question

does Sony not manufacture a lot of ps digital consoles compared to disc based ps5? Are they making a loss on the digital console?

 

[Panajev2001a]

So you not answer the question

does Sony not manufacture a lot of ps digital consoles compared to disc based ps5? Are they making a loss on the digital console?

Maybe and maybe. Do you have clear data? What do you intend to prove?

 

[phil_t98]

Maybe and maybe. Do you have clear data? What do you intend to prove?

Well if Microsoft have made a machine capable of 1080p and ray tracing on next gen games at a price where they dont loose money then as the title says on the thread its a great designed little machine for wjhat its built for