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[i-Lo]

Oh god not this again.

Adaptive tessellation is a process which tests surfaces for flatness and curvature relative to viewpoint before blindly subdividing the model a fixed number of times (full tessellation). Obviously tessellating a flat surface does nothing to improve the model quality, but the curved part of those pictures is being subdivided the exact same amount of times as the full tessellation model. This is not an example of diminishing returns.

I just threw in it in there for the sake of lolz. Simply put, I just wanted to convey my frustration on why tessellation was previously implemented as an all or nothing solution when this form shows the biggest gains come from selective tessellation and beyond a certain point the performance hit is not commensurate with the output.

I hope ND can pull it off at least with characters; recent showing of Snake's fingers left me cold.

 

[lemonade]

Yeah, but why put so much effort into having the scene running without even a single dropped frame over a year before release? Also, they would definitely have said real-time by now. Therefore it's totally what they're going for, but this video was captured by having a PS4 rendering all the (60*seconds) frames at her own pace. They are confident to have it running at something aproaching 60fps when it comes out, but why go through so much hassle just to be able to proclaim it's actually realtime if all they wanted was provide us with a perfect 60fps-demonstration of their vision (which they are very confident to achieve, btw). Also, again, if they had (they haven't), they would have thrown the words real-time at us so much we would be drowning in it. But anyway, this games gonna be glorious.

YU said in-game visuals. Its sated in the op

 

[RoKKeR]

Can't wait to see it in action. I honestly would be fine if they locked it at 30 and just cranked things up from there, though.

 

[garyBig]

YU said in-game visuals. Its sated in the op

Exactly, and that's all which matters in the end. I was just responding to the real-time claim. This trailer was not a real-time presentation, that's all. Apart from that, this is very much what it's going to look like.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

A great example of diminishing return.

No, a great example of optimization.
You get the same results and it costs way less resources.

 

[lemonade]

Exactly, and that's all which matters in the end. I was just responding to the real-time claim. This trailer was not a real-time presentation, that's all. Apart from that, this is very much what it's going to look like.

Yeah, I totally agree. Its a cut-scene with in-game visuals, like The Order 1866 which transitions into gameplay. I understand that it might be totally different when they start throwing other variables into the game.

 

[i-Lo]

No, a great example of optimization.
You get the same results and it costs way less resources.

Yes and the diminishing return is portrayed when the gain is nowhere near as significant going from adaptive to full as opposed to off to adaptive. Yet the rendering time jumps by the significant margin. The gain hits a plateau of sorts while drawing much more processing power to display marginal improvement. Adaptive model is a testament to both effectiveness and efficiency for the procedure.

 

[JaseC]

Since when an in engine, real game level does not run in real time?

To play Devil's Advocate, every word in that tweet could be applied to the cutscenes in the previous Uncharted games (they're in-engine, at least some were shot within the game's levels, they technically run on a PS3 in the form of a video file, and because they don't look notably better than the in-game graphics, they wouldn't align with what most would consider to be "pre-render CGI"). I'm not saying I agree, which is what you seem to have inferred from my post; rather, my point is simply that there's going to be scepticism until she utters the term that she seemingly refuses to use.

 

[AuthenticM]

To play Devil's Advocate, every word in that tweet could be applied to the cutscenes in the previous Uncharted games (they're in-engine, at least some were shot within the game's levels, they technically run on a PS3 in the form of a video file, and because they don't look notably better than the in-game graphics, they wouldn't align with what most would consider to be "pre-render CGI"). I'm not saying I agree, which is what you seem to have inferred from my post; rather, my point is simply that there's going to be scepticism until she utters the term that she seemingly refuses to use.

But she also said that starting with Uncharted 4, all of their cutscenes will be in real-time. That implies that she acknowledges that past games have used pre-rendered cutscenes, and that that is about to change.

 

[garyBig]

But she also said that starting with Uncharted 4, all of their cutscenes will be in real-time. That implies that she acknowledges that past games have used pre-rendered cutscenes, and that that is about to change.

.

 

[JaseC]

But [someone on B3D] also said that starting with Uncharted 4, all of their cutscenes will be in real-time. That implies that [ND] acknowledges that past games have used pre-rendered cutscenes, and that that is about to change.

I'm aware of that. (Yu never said that, by the way: you're thinking of this post B3D post.) Again, I'm simply saying that there's going to be a degree of scepticism until one of ND's most senior programmers stops avoiding the use of the term "real-time". Nothing more, nothing less -- I'm not trying to surreptitiously suggest that I agree with said hesitance and it should be taken into consideration.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Can I just say I love how the goal posts of the "diminishing returns" trite, were so subtly moved. Prior to the reveal of jaw-dropping current gen games (starting all the way back from launch), the narrative was very clearly that diminishing returns would be visibly seen in the games of this generation compared to the gap of previous generations.

However, now since that prediction has fallen flat on its face, the talking point is "it takes more effort to make things look better."

...No shit it takes more effort/resources to make things look better. It's been that way for every.single.generation. That's how technology works. It's not a phenomenon that happened with gen 8 consoles, and doesn't bear mentioning, when trying to construct a point about how this generation will feel the effects of "diminishing returns" compared to previous gens. The only thing that is actually worrisome is that if devs continue to desire to sustain this steady and rapid climb in fidelity, the costs of development will rise likewise. That is something that's not sustainable. But that branches into a completely different issue (namely the AAA bubble), and is not at the crux of the debate on returns.

 

[-SD-]

 

[OgaKratos]

Visual spectacles incoming on the ps4.

 

[mysteriousmage09]

Lulz.

 

[Dire]

I've watched this demo several times and it doesn't seize to amaze me. It looks absolutely fantastic. However (you knew it was coming) I just thinking that this is similar to the Final Fantasy VII demo from 2006. It was realtime and looked great, but was not indicative of how FF XIII would look.

Is there confirmation that this very same sequence is part of the game that will eventually be released?

In one of the other Uncharted 4 threads there was a source where one of the Naughty Dog guys said that this was from an actual level in the game.

You didn't answer his question.

A rendering of a static frame of an in-game level using extensive precalculation is not indicative of how the game itself will look when being dynamically rendered with the normal far more minimal levels of precalculation available.

The in-game cut scenes and such will look like this. The in-game gameplay will at best be vaguely reminiscent of it.

 

[Fancy Clown]

You didn't answer his question.

A rendering of a static frame of an in-game level using extensive precalculation is not indicative of how the game itself will look when being dynamically rendered with the normal far more minimal levels of precalculation available.

The in-game cut scenes and such will look like this. The in-game gameplay will at best be vaguely reminiscent of it.

No, I literally answered what he said. What they showed here is part of the game. And the gameplay graphics will be 'at best vaguely reminiscent' of the cutscene graphics? Troll harder.

 

[mysteriousmage09]

You didn't answer his question.

A rendering of a static frame of an in-game level using extensive precalculation is not indicative of how the game itself will look when being dynamically rendered with the normal far more minimal levels of precalculation available.

The in-game cut scenes and such will look like this. The in-game gameplay will at best be vaguely reminiscent of it.

Uh huh...

 

[Shungin12]

Naughty Dog Working Hard to Push The Last of Us on PS4 Past 60 FPS and to Solve Performance Bugs
http://www.*****************/2014/0...red-past-60-fps-and-solving-performance-bugs/
is Dualshockers ban?

I know that they have are targeting 60fps for U4 but this leads me to believe. They are struggling to push Last of us past 60fps, how are they going to get U4 to 60fps if it suppose to look that much better.
One problem might be that they had to to rewrite the code from the ps3

 

[Fancy Clown]

Naughty Dog Working Hard to Push The Last of Us on PS4 Past 60 FPS and to Solve Performance Bugs
http://www.*****************/2014/0...red-past-60-fps-and-solving-performance-bugs/
is Dualshockers ban?

I know that they have are targeting 60fps for U4 but this leads me to believe. They are struggling to push Last of us past 60fps, how are they going to get U4 to 60fps if it suppose to look that much better.
One problem might be that they had to to rewrite the code from the ps3

I'm positive it's because it's due to porting PS3 code. They said it was a huge pain in the ass and incredibly difficult process. The way they've been talking about the PS4 is that it pretty much lets them do what they want without much problem at all.

 

[jonnyp]

Naughty Dog Working Hard to Push The Last of Us on PS4 Past 60 FPS and to Solve Performance Bugs
http://www.*****************/2014/0...red-past-60-fps-and-solving-performance-bugs/
is Dualshockers ban?

I know that they have are targeting 60fps for U4 but this leads me to believe. They are struggling to push Last of us past 60fps, how are they going to get U4 to 60fps if it suppose to look that much better.
One problem might be that they had to to rewrite the code from the ps3

Who says they're struggling? They're just porting the TLOU engine over as quickly as possible and only optimizing to the point that it can run at 1080p/60fps.

They're putting a lot more effort into the U4 engine understandably. You can't draw any conclusions based on the port of TLOU.

 

[LukasTaves]

Tesselation isn't magic, it literally just adds complexity to closer things, incurring the same performance hit. It's more of a workflow efficiency tool than a performance efficiency tool (basically giving on-the-fly level of detail models without having to model them separately).

A model tesselated up to a million vertices right in front of the camera is going to have nearly the same hit as one modeled at a million vertices.

Actually tessellation does take far less hit than drawing the same amount of triangles in a regular way. Usually the triangle list is created by the cpu, stored into memory and then passed to the gpu. If your model is really high poly that becomes a problem. With tessellation the triangles are created during render, as needed, not even the gpu memory takes much hit. It's like a super compression in that regard.

Plus, with adaptive tessellation, that geometry may by dynamically allocated, so even if the total amount stays the same, more polys would be used where it matters.

 

[Hidden One]

This game looks sooooo amazing.


OT: I'm baaaaack.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Naughty Dog Working Hard to Push The Last of Us on PS4 Past 60 FPS and to Solve Performance Bugs
http://www.*****************/2014/0...red-past-60-fps-and-solving-performance-bugs/
is Dualshockers ban?

I know that they have are targeting 60fps for U4 but this leads me to believe. They are struggling to push Last of us past 60fps, how are they going to get U4 to 60fps if it suppose to look that much better.
One problem might be that they had to to rewrite the code from the ps3

The fact that she says that they're working hard to push it past 60fps suggests that they aren't looking for an unlocked framerate but a completely locked 60fps framerate for TLoU. Locked framerates, whether it be 60fps or 30fps, are extremely rare.

 

[Buckethead]

That Jak 3 shot on the last page is pretty unflattering to how good that game looked.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Sony shares code across teams so we can only expect visuals to improve after Uncharted 4 releases. Post Uncharted 4 Sony developed titles will be amazing.

 

[charsace]

IIRC Drake's Uncharted 1-3 in-game character models were somewhere in the 30-40k poly range. So if Nate's UATE model's poly count is twice that high 60-80k sounds about right. I wouldn't be surprised if UATE's poly count numbers won't be all that impressive and Naughty Dog instead uses complex shaders, tesselation, very high texture resolutions, etc. to make the game look impressive. Stuff like that already gained a lot of significance during last gen and it'll only become even more important from here on out.

Once Modelers get over 25k for a model then the skills of the modeler matters way more.

 

[Mr. PlayStation]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Uncharted simply has so many more animations and they are all really nuanced as to what's going on around Drake. I definitely feel more connected to the world in Uncharted than AC.

And I thought I was the only one who felt the same as you.

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

I was going to buy this week a new, expensive pc fully featured with gaming juice, but after seeing this I'm seriously asking myself if I should save all that money and get a PS4 instead: am I being dumb?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I was going to buy this week a new, expensive pc fully featured with gaming juice, but after seeing this I'm seriously asking myself if I should save all that money and get a PS4 instead: am I being dumb?

Well its an exclusive. Buying a console for an exclusive makes sense so no its not dumb.

 

[boredandlazy]

I was going to buy this week a new, expensive pc fully featured with gaming juice, but after seeing this I'm seriously asking myself if I should save all that money and get a PS4 instead: am I being dumb?

Depends on who you ask.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

It's a great looking CGI, but next time, show me some real gameplay pls! I want to see what they're really capable of at making in terms of a great game at 60fps on this console.

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

Well its an exclusive. Buying a console for an exclusive makes sense so no its not dumb.

I'll buy a PS4 without a doubt because of Bloodborne and TLOU remastered. My question was related to the possibility of completely skipping the gaming PC (that I'm going to use as a console so gamepad + big tv) because the PS4 seems to be that capable.

 

[jwtsonga]

dont worry they will show gameplay next year at E3, and it will look amazing!

 

[mysteriousmage09]

I was going to buy this week a new, expensive pc fully featured with gaming juice, but after seeing this I'm seriously asking myself if I should save all that money and get a PS4 instead: am I being dumb?

Comes down to if you have enough games on your list to warrant dropping money. Got myself a new gaming PC a little over a year ago, love it. Consoles are always the easiest option since it's buy the box, good to go for 5 years.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I'll buy a PS4 without a doubt because of Bloodborne and TLOU remastered. My question was related to the possibility of completely skipping the gaming PC (that I'm going to use as a console so gamepad + big tv) because the PS4 seems to be that capable.

Yeah I certainly astounded in how this is 1080 60fps. If your happy with the performance of PS4's multiplats then theres no need to waste money on a PC.

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

Comes down to if you have enough games on your list to warrant dropping money. Got myself a new gaming PC a little over a year ago, love it. Consoles are always the easiest option since it's buy the box, good to go for 5 years.

The gaming PC option to me comes down to three main things:

1) the possibility of playing multiplats in a better way;
2) the possibility of playing indie games that don't come on console / come late;
3) investing in a single unified platform instead of having different games on different platforms (excluding the exclusives, of course)

If the PS4 is that capable I guess that multiplats will do better and better on the console with time, and about indie games, it's likely that Wii U (that I already have) + PS4 will cover most of what I want.

After the initial 30 fps sub 1080p efforts on both PS4 and Xbox One I was convinced on getting a gaming PC, but after this trailer, that looks better than anything I've ever seen on PC (in terms of real time rendering), the doubt returned.

 

[hesido]

Tesselation isn't magic, it literally just adds complexity to closer things, incurring the same performance hit. It's more of a workflow efficiency tool than a performance efficiency tool (basically giving on-the-fly level of detail models without having to model them separately).

A model tesselated up to a million vertices right in front of the camera is going to have nearly the same hit as one modeled at a million vertices.

There can be considerable performance benefit as the tesselation would be done after skinning. This way you don't have to animate 10s of thousands of points. (This of course when compared to a non-tesselated high poly object)

 

[The_Lump]

So in engine cutscenes can still look very different to gameplay. A scripted scene can have a lot more bells and whistles applied than open play, right?

What im trying to say is I don't think the entire game is goin to look that good/detailed. Although im sure it will look incredible.

Would be thrilled to be proven wrong though

 

[velociraptor]

Que?

Think he's referring to how full tessellation is a pointless waste of resources compared to adaptive tessellation, especially when the results look identical.

 

[Ethelwulf]

So in engine cutscenes can still look very different to gameplay. A scripted scene can have a lot more bells and whistles applied than open play, right?

What im trying to say is I don't think the entire game is goin to look that good/detailed. Although im sure it will look incredible.

Would be thrilled to be proven wrong though

Although I would also like to be proven wrong, I think you are right. This level of detail will be present in cutscenes and gameplay will look close but not the same. Maybe they'll adopt a 60fps for cutscenes and corridor sections and 30fps for open scenarios with lots of shooting/killing.

 

[Kayant]

It's a great looking CGI, but next time, show me some real gameplay pls! I want to see what they're really capable of at making in terms of a great game at 60fps on this console.

Did you read the OP?

It's not CGI. It's either real time as suggested by evidence in the OP or it's a pre-rendered cut scene which is rendered offline on multiple consoles like their previous games.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

I'll buy a PS4 without a doubt because of Bloodborne and TLOU remastered. My question was related to the possibility of completely skipping the gaming PC (that I'm going to use as a console so gamepad + big tv) because the PS4 seems to be that capable.

At the end of the day, you are going to get your fill of great games on the PS4. Putting the exclusives to one side, the multiplats will only get better over time. It's not worth the money or the pain to mess around with a PC when you can pay less, sit back on your couch and play games on your nice 1080p TV.

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

At the end of the day, you are going to get your fill of great games on the PS4. Putting the exclusives to one side, the multiplats will only get better over time. It's not worth the money or the pain to mess around with a PC when you can pay less, sit back on your couch and play games on your nice 1080p TV.

I guess you're right, thanks for the answer

 

[boredandlazy]

I guess you're right, thanks for the answer

Really depends on whether getting the absolute best visuals out of every game is worth the money to you. Almost all big games will appear on both platforms, and although it's a strong point of the PS4 there are more indie games on PC.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

This guy right here. Smug bastard.

 

[boredandlazy]

No tesselation:

Full Tesselation:
Posting a picture will get me banned, so a reaction gif will suffice.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

Did you read the OP?

It's not CGI. It's either real time as suggested by evidence in the OP or it's a pre-rendered cut scene which is rendered offline on multiple consoles like their previous games.

Ok, my bad. I just meant "cutscene" anyway, I don't know what the technical differences between CGI, and real time or pre-rendered cut scenes are anyway.

My point was I hope we'll see actual gameplay soon.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

Ok, my bad. I just meant "cutscene" anyway, I don't know what the technical differences between CGI, and real time or pre-rendered cut scenes are anyway.

My point was I hope we'll see actual gameplay soon.

Maybe in December at the VGA's.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Naughty Dog Working Hard to Push The Last of Us on PS4 Past 60 FPS and to Solve Performance Bugs
http://www.*****************/2014/0...red-past-60-fps-and-solving-performance-bugs/
is Dualshockers ban?

I know that they have are targeting 60fps for U4 but this leads me to believe. They are struggling to push Last of us past 60fps, how are they going to get U4 to 60fps if it suppose to look that much better.
One problem might be that they had to to rewrite the code from the ps3

The Last Of Us is heavily optimized for Ps3, just getting it to run on the PS4 is probably a huge pain in the arse. Using the Ps4s hardware efficiently with that Ps3 based code is pretty much impossible. And NaughtyDog probably isn't working with a huge team on it.

Uncharted 4 on the other hand is designed around the Ps4s hardware from the ground up and takes advantage of everything the Ps4 got.

So its normal that they might have problems with hitting 60FPS on TLoU while managing it with the much better looking Uncharted 4.