are Tess and Ellie the best representation of "women" in videogames yet? who else?
- Thread starter ThatStupidLion
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ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Were you ever a teenager lol.
I've got a 15 year old lil sister, all she says is "shit" and "fuck".
abstract alien
Member
There are different types of women the same way there are different types of men. There is no "best" when it comes to representation.
viveks86
Member
Hugging and mild flirtation are your examples of "zero to horny"? O_O
thesolidshark
Member
The bolded I think you've been on record about before. I've checked between Psycho Mantis death and a few of the B&B explanations from Drebin, they're around a minute shorter than Mantis, unless you meant all the B&B's combined.
As stated in a few other female rep. threads, I might be one of the few to like them as characters, because part of their uniqueness in the franchise is being so fucked up that someone else had to tell their stories for them. That plus their lethal battlefield prowess make for good females to me in variety, but certainly not role models.
We'll just agree to disagree about them I figure.
The B&B are actually a statement about how women are used in video games. Drebin's monologues are the nail in the coffin, where the monologues get told by someone else, because they have no voice of their own. They exist only to be seen and used as they were created. Blade Wolf, Paz and Quiet are natural extensions of this.
Blade Wolf shows that cyborgs can see the choices they are forced to make even if they don't 'personally' agree with them. Paz, in GZ, shows that just like Boss and EVA, looks can be deceiving. Kojima already said that Quiet was going to be a statement on female characters in fighting games which I think is him trying to shine light on his efforts, after B&B was characterized as him just wanting to look at women.
Piston Hyundai
Member
I don't think Alyx is a stand-out character either, but it's not like she was plotting on the dick from the start. It's totally worth an eye-roll or two, but it's a bit more gradual than you make it out to be.
Bry0
Member
So hugging Freeman because she found him alive after the crazy events at the citadel means shes horny? Seriously? Their relationship is as innocent as an elementary school crush.
Anyways, I`m surprised nobody me.tioned Miranda Keyes from Halo. I thought she was a cool character. She had a lot of her Father`s spirit in her, and I think Bungie did a great job with her character.
The hug by itself isn't the problem. It's her continued advances afterward.
Maybe it was just me, but it felt like they were trying too hard to suddenly shoehorn the romance angle in.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It's really damn weird for a supposedly "great" character to fall in love with a pair of floating hands with guns that never even say anything as a response.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
That's a phrase I should start using more often.
But yeah I agree with you, felt a little strange at times, but definately not "horny" lol.
That too. Gordon isn't really a character, he's you: the player.
That's probably why I feel weird about it: it's a one-way infatuation.
99% of the time I'm fine with romance between two characters who experience a long, harrowing journey together. But in this case I would have preferred Alyx was just a platonic friend.
I'm gonna say...
Mary from Silent Hill 2. She's the only character I can think of who seems incredibly realistic in all the wrong and right ways. She seems like a real person who wasn't really designed to be the perfect women for the player. Unfortunately most female characters are designed to be the perfect women for the player, so when a game comes along that shows a not so perfect, sexy female character (who you want to protect) something is being done really well. She has a lot of ugly and that's what makes humans feel real.
I can't really think of any other character to be that realistically fearful and true to real life.
To elaborate: Women are conditioned to be polite, pretty, "sexy" and perfect. Because of this we're placed on a pedestal...which actually dehumanizes us in a significant way. "Positive" sexism causes "Hostile" sexism to increase 1:1. Depicting women as not perfect, not pretty and not polite is a necessary way to give us human life and characterization in the medium.
Mary from Silent Hill 2. She's the only character I can think of who seems incredibly realistic in all the wrong and right ways. She seems like a real person who wasn't really designed to be the perfect women for the player. Unfortunately most female characters are designed to be the perfect women for the player, so when a game comes along that shows a not so perfect, sexy female character (who you want to protect) something is being done really well. She has a lot of ugly and that's what makes humans feel real.
I can't really think of any other character to be that realistically fearful and true to real life.
To elaborate: Women are conditioned to be polite, pretty, "sexy" and perfect. Because of this we're placed on a pedestal...which actually dehumanizes us in a significant way. "Positive" sexism causes "Hostile" sexism to increase 1:1. Depicting women as not perfect, not pretty and not polite is a necessary way to give us human life and characterization in the medium.
viveks86
Member
I think you are projecting too much because of the bolded part. You are exaggerating it beyond what was actually portrayed because you didn't prefer her behavior. But let's be clear: Flirting =/= Romance. Hugging =/= Sex
As SOLDIER pointed out, Gordon Freeman isn't really a character. Secondly, I hope you know what "falling in love" means. Funny post though.
Tx for the reply there.^_^
I had always had some problem and these thread finally cemented what my problem was.
Everytime, most gamer said about great female chara, it is always all about powerful, smart, independent character but the truth is, there also many other character which had their own charm.
Another example I can give here would be Issabeau from SMT4.
She is easily the exact opposite of Fiona here. She is smart, kind and also powerful as it is shown how she overpowered the other two males during the early story period however behind that powerful shell, she is actually really frail especially on mental department.
She is indecisive on choices. She rather choose to be follower rather than leader. She knows that each choices had their benefits and also their cons which makes to be unable to choose. However she also had a conviction that if us(M.C) would choose the way which is not what she think is correct, she will stand in front of us as foes.
This is another type character I feel to many undeserved hate was given to. She is simply like many of us human. Unable to choose which is the better choice. She is strong for sure. But it is only in front. In behind she need protection and guidance.
As long as one character is given chance to grow, I believe any character had their charm and there is no need for the best kind of woman thing.
Auto-Reply
Member
They are presented as characters under special circumstances that don't ever show characteristics of their gender on a physical or psychological level. Thus they are just humans, they are good representations of humans in a game.
That may make them a good representation of "women" for some but I think they are lacking elements to make that statement.
What makes a good representation of a man in a videogame? You could answer the question exactly the same as the question above.
If you don't want any distinction and go for equality in every aspect than that's a fine answer but it's not telling the whole story imo and is even asking the wrong question as the gender doesn't really matter.
That may make them a good representation of "women" for some but I think they are lacking elements to make that statement.
What makes a good representation of a man in a videogame? You could answer the question exactly the same as the question above.
If you don't want any distinction and go for equality in every aspect than that's a fine answer but it's not telling the whole story imo and is even asking the wrong question as the gender doesn't really matter.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Not as funny as people thinking she is a "great" character though
I mean, really, I can never understand what quality that she has that entitles her to the title of a "great" character. Ellie, Big Boss, sure, but her? I always have the feeling that people calling her a great character simply because Valve doesn't try to sexualize her (although in my mind they *did* try to sexualize her only in a different way but that's a different topic I think)
I don't know what you're referencing or saying. Most women characters are NPCs or boss characters, so they're going to have backstory, there will be dialog, there isn't "special treatment" for women characters. Every single important MGS character has a traumatic backstory or a backstory with baggage. You gotta start naming characters or situations, cause this is going in circles. The absolute worst depiction of women soldiers in the series happened in MGS4, with the B&B unit.
Meryl getting gunned down in MGS1 is important because Snake developed feelings for her, which in turn matters because he's a cold hearted killer. Its the bond that's important, not Meryl being a woman. Sniper Wolf's death matters because of her bond with Snake's father, along with Otacon losing someone that was affectionate towards him.
Before or during a boss fight, there is a 100% chance of they'll monologue about something. There were 5 boss fights with women in MGS 1-3.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Also that.
Every single character besides Ocelot goes on a spiel about something in MGS1.
Vamp and Fatman talk to Raiden a lot more than Fortune and Olga.
Most of the bosses in MGS3 have shallow backstories but awesome designs, except The Boss.
MGS4 is a character assassination buffet.
Every character backstory is a sobstory. The main characters of the series either killed their father, brother, adoptive father, or mentor.
TheRedSnifit
Member
How can I get more specific? Every single grunt is a man. Every single woman is a major NPC with a sob story up until 4. You don't see the issue here? It doesn't show that both genders are equal on the battlefield, because only one gender is portrayed as expendable on it.
viveks86
Member
Not as funny as people thinking she is a "great" character though
I mean, really, I can never understand what quality that she has that entitles her to the title of a "great" character. Ellie, Big Boss, sure, but her? I always have the feeling that people calling her a great character simply because Valve doesn't try to sexualize her (although in my mind they *did* try to sexualize her only in a different way but that's a different topic I think)
It seems like the only aspect of her that you are focused on. What about her intelligence, sense of humor, bravery, technical expertise, emotional fragility and the fact that she saves your ass multiple times. There's a surprising amount of depth to her without turning her larger than life. Back in the day, having such a companion character was pretty ground breaking in a video game. Alyx in many ways was an inspiration for several great co-protagonists that followed. Let's not discount that by cheapening her image as a horny girl with a crush on a pair of floating hands.
I'm pretty sure there are female grunts as well.
TheRedSnifit
Member
The only ones I remember are the FROGS in 4.
These are the words of a man whose opinion on gender matters.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Her supports are fine, but she's annoying as hell in the main story.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
This is the first time I've talked about MGS4 in this board, I think (was a Junior Member until about a week ago). Apparently it's a well-tread path, yar? Haha.
Oh, I don't really disagree with your general observation. I think that kind of a character has their place. But there are four of them! There is basically no other boss to contrast them to in that game.
Again, there are four of them! That's overkill for a statement that's skirting the line, I feel.
viveks86
Member
Interesting post. I don't entirely agree with the conclusion though. Elizabeth in Bioshock infinite was perfect, polite and pretty. And yet she wasn't remotely dehumanized.
I get where you are coming from. The easiest way to break the chains of gender stereotypes is to portray the opposite. I just don't think it's the only way, which is what your conclusion implies.
She gets bonus points for handing your team a righteous smackdown on 3 separate occasions.
Yeah either that or they just half-assed it. Like all other parts of MGS4. Even the boss-fights themselves weren't properly designed. That's kinda obvious when you compare them to the bosses from the previous games. I think Kojima made them female, because he wanted to have an excuse to get body scans of sexy hot female models (or he just did this for the typical gamer or even both). It was embarassing.
I mean let's assume it was done on purpose. Then why are all sorts of other optional dialogues missing? There are just a few optional codec calls in the game. Compare it with MGS3, where you could get optional codec calls for literally everything. Being in a box -> optional codec call. Eating one of the 50 animals in the game -> optional codec call. Doing some weird stuff -> optional codec call. Why is nanomachines the answer to everything? Because Kojima simply didn't give a shit. Which makes sense, because he wanted to end the series with MGS2 and then with MGS3. He didn't want to create another MGS game.
The B&Bs are laughable. First you fight a terrible boss fight. Then they go semi-nude and want to fuck you in some way including suggestive posing. And then finally you get a codec call with some laughable terrible background story by Drebin. It's exactly the same. All 4 times. It was awfully done.
Just take a look at "the boss" in MGS3. A superbly created character and boss. Eva was also well designed. And then look at MGS4. Yuk.
That logic of yours is like saying GTA IV was designed that badly on purpose. Shitty friends that call you every few minutes is supposed to get on your nerves. Yeah. Because Rockstar are geniuses. No, they are not. It was simply another badly designed game.
JimmyRustler
Member
I think this is a very important point to bring up. There is definitely a difference between how characters are written in video games compared to other mediums. For games that take a cinematic approach - like The Last of Us - it's much easier to compare the characters to film or literature. Other times, a character is not defined by how he/she is written, but how he/she is played. In this case, the definition of a "good character" is a bit more ambiguous.
I just mean, show that women are nice and pretty and polite. And also show that they are ugly and mean and human just like everyone else.
Essentially, just round out your characters. Male characters need this as well. When women lack inner conflict or faults...they lack true character.
Positive sexism is fine, both men and women find it really good. But it makes all of us, both men and women, get really angry at women who can't or refuse to fall in line. Our perceptions are reactionary and raw when they have no reason to be. We simply haven't been conditioned to let women be human. We want them to stay the way they are and never deviate. We gain a lower tolerance for other types of women as we fixate them to be the perfect wife-material. And by fixating them to this task, we lose out on all the other ways women can be depicted.
For instance saying women are modest and kind means that stones and trash are thrown at women who don't fit the modest clothing and kind role. That means women are pretty and pure = unattractive women are allowed to be mocked openly and shamed regardless of context. That means women are nice and passive = assertive women are the devil and need to be put down. That means women are different from men = women aren't allowed a voice, job, education etc etc. It's just silly all around. but you get the gist. The more positive the stereotype the worst the hostile threats and punishments and limitations on women.
Okay, now I understand where you're coming from.
I looked up the number of women serving in the Russian military, and the percentage of women soldiers serving is around 10%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Russian_and_Soviet_military
In MGS2 the majority of guards are from Sergei Gurlukovich's group, which are ex-Spetsnaz, Russian special forces. They weren't Russian grunts.
So if there were female soldiers in MGS2, there would probably be a couple or few areas in the entire game that would contain women soldiers, based on the numbers and guessing on my part.
in MGS3, the majority of soldiers are from GRU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Intelligence_Directorate_(Russia)
To me that sounds like a messier and grungier version of the CIA. Women GRU soldiers/operatives seems like it would be a rare thing, could be wrong though. It seems there are plenty of women spies, nothing on women soldiers.
If there were going to be women grunts before MGS4, chances are they would fit in most in MGS1.
I liked Tess and Ellie in TLOU, but to say they are the best representation of women in games is laughable. Just because they don't have big boobs or don't act feminine doesn't mean they are a more accurate representation of women than other female characters.
Tess is a
Is that supposed to represent what a female would do? Ellie is a 14 year-old girl whose charm relies on cursing and acting much older than she really is. Yeah, it's cute and funny.....but I don't think there's anything more to it than that.
As for the real "best" representations of women in gaming, I wouldn't really know since as a male I don't know what qualities females want to see in characters. But I would agree with some of the posts here that female characters like The Boss stand out because of how they are written and the history that comes with them, not just because of how often they curse or act like a badass. I would say Lara Croft from the new Tomb Raider is better representation of women than Tess or even Ellie in TLOU. In that game, Lara is pretty much an average, athletic, young female with great knowledge of how to survive in emergency situations, and I can see and believe that. She's nice to everyone in her crew and they respect her, so she comes off as very likeable. In TLOU, when Ellie
I don't look at that and think of a woman, let alone a 14 year-old girl. That's just how I see it though so i don't expect everyone to know what I mean.
Tess is a
trigger happy woman who literally said "fuck this" during a confrontation while outnumbered and shot a guy straight in the head. She also proceeds to kill another guy like 2 mins later while he is pinned down to the ground.
As for the real "best" representations of women in gaming, I wouldn't really know since as a male I don't know what qualities females want to see in characters. But I would agree with some of the posts here that female characters like The Boss stand out because of how they are written and the history that comes with them, not just because of how often they curse or act like a badass. I would say Lara Croft from the new Tomb Raider is better representation of women than Tess or even Ellie in TLOU. In that game, Lara is pretty much an average, athletic, young female with great knowledge of how to survive in emergency situations, and I can see and believe that. She's nice to everyone in her crew and they respect her, so she comes off as very likeable. In TLOU, when Ellie
is alone and has to take down a horde or bad guys and clickers during a blizzard,
thesolidshark
Member
My mistake on the first bolded, then. As to the second bolded, what about Vamp, Ocelot, or Ray?
Maybe you wouldn't count them as major, and maybe I'm nitpicking here, but what about Mei Ling and Nastasha Romanenko from MGS1? I don't think they ever came with a sob story. Technically Meryl from MGS1 didn't either, as far as I can remember.
You know exactly what he meant. I doubt that you could hide in a locker from real Spetsnaz special forces. Video game wise they were grunts. Expendable. Simple enemies.
Not on European Extreme or Extreme.
Enemies will spot you across entire rooms, two shot kills, incredible accuracy. MGS2 on its hardest difficulties is pretty damn daunting. The majority of boss fights turn into one hit kill battles.
So the regular grunts are still not as good as the bosses. And I haven't tried it, but I would assume that you could still hide in lockers. At least once.
It's silly to compare them. Bosses take like minutes to take down. The regular grunts take one shot to the head. They are grunts.
Oh and let's be nitpicky. On European extreme they won't shoot you. Because for that they have to spot you and then it's game over.