Experience clearly doesn't matter. Obama won in 2008 and he had less experience than McCain. Destroyed him in the general with electoral votes.
No one cares about experience for Republicans or Democrats.
PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black
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Experience clearly doesn't matter. Obama won in 2008 and he had less experience than McCain. Destroyed him in the general with electoral votes.
No one cares about experience for Republicans or Democrats.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
Do you really think a recount is coming?
No, but no one accounted for the mystical whites to fucking show up.
Officerrob
Banned
Personality trumps experience and temperament, we have decades of presidential elections in a row proving that now. Plus, she had decades of baggage
thehypocrite
Member
This is good way to put it. I think a lot of Democrats just wanted to win the EV from the battleground states without putting the effort of providing a candidate that can appeal to them.
The candidate that's representative of the party needs to be strategic, contextual, in a wave of antiglobalim and neoliberalism the DMV gave us the worst possible candidate. Congrats DNC you played yourself. Got too high on your own shit.
Abinash117
Member
Yeah, but even still he turned out out that group it is still down from both Mcain and Romney so far.
Did he say who he voted for? Or is this just a general, eff him?
Either way, I agree.
Oh fuck off. We've had candidates take the high road while white supremacists cater to white nationalism fears and you want to pretend they're justified. We're going to watch this country be torn asunder with an authoritarian government plunging us into recession and you want to pretend these people deserve respect? No, we've been thinking of this the wrong way. While they've been systematically destroying minority communities with the police state we've been sitting here holding flowers. We could have disenfranchised tens of millions of these rural white folks by simply perpetrating the same war on drugs that Reagan did. But we sat around and felt bad for them and didn't want to be shitty people and these idiots hated us for it regardless.
Obama, a perfect gentleman with no scandals and a perfect family brought us out of a collapse and these idiots voted his legacy out and will inevitably bring another Collapse. If we have to rely on transcendent politicians to win enough white votes to win a White House, that's not a sustainable strategy.
We've now twice followed 8 years of peace and prosperity and popular outgoing presidents with democratic losses because white people in this country instinctively react to white supremacy.
The amount of white Bernie supporters trying to blame Hillary for why they voted for Trump should tell you what this is.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I love Hillary and she would have been great, but I have to admit we got too confident with polls and overlooked very serious issues with her campaign. Because the polls show us winning, so as long as we keep going, we'll be fine.
That month off in August was a disaster. The way her campaign handled the emails was bad. The way they handled her illness was bad. The deplorables remark was terrible and potentially cost her the election.
We got too lost in data and we couldn't see the cracks as they were forming. We should have looked at Trump beating every established, high ranking GOP candidate and not said "lol, these guys are morons for losing to Trump" but said "oh wow, Trump beat all these GOP all stars, maybe he's a threat"
Ironically, we spent the entire time talking about how the GOP never took Trump as a threat, when we're just as guilty as we say they were. Let's be honest. We never even humored the idea he would win. No map with him winning made any sense. The final map of the election doesn't even entirely make sense to me (I was blind sided by FL and PA)
Exactly. And those people are probably going to start getting high paying manufacturing jobs starting tomorrow. And someone is going to finally shoo the Trannies out of the kids' bathrooms. And a tax cut for people like me will rain riches on those below me. And black folks can go back to their dreamy pastoral walks through antebellum groves at sunset.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
I'd hope we could retire that bullshit talking point now. She does not have more experience than Richard Nixon or HW Bush. Or a few more candidates.
RustyNails
Member
Hillary had pages and pages of policy on opiod addiction and treatment. Trump had none. He blamed Mexicans.
Hillary had talked at length about PTSD, veteran care, safe gun laws and mental treatment. Trump didn't.
Average trump supporter median income is $70k. Wages have grown under Obama faster than anyone since the 90's. Obama saved manufacturing in Michigan. Trump's plans were same old heritage foundation voodoo economics.
Colonialism, Slavery and Imperialism was caused by western nations. It's effects are still felt today in many forms.
Racism, misogyny and Islamophobia is the center of it.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
People don't act on logic. The last 30-40 years of politics should make that clear. They act on feelings, emotions, charisma, and the intangible. What the Dems need is to find a way to make their solutions viscerally appealing to people that currently feel like the Dem base hates them and resents their very existence.
Or, conversely, Dems need to figure out what the 5 million+ people that voted for Obama in 2012, but not Clinton in 2016, liked, and figure out how to get them to turn the fuck out.
Edit: RustyNails, those ill "-isms" are appealing for a reason. Ideologies don't stick around just because. They stick around because they make more sense to the people that adhere to them than alternative explanations, and you cannot trumpet "lived experiences!!" for minorities when they do things that white people find bizarre or inscrutable then deny white people that same courtesy. That kind of blatant double standard is why people didn't show up for Clinton and DID show up for Trump, and seeing people double down on it just points to future disaster.
Basileus777
Member
They didn't want it in 2000 either.
Exactly. Dems will be more Centrist if anything.
But experience ain't everything. Obama was a truly great, generational president. He didn't have a whole lot of experience.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I didn't disagree with you, ever, that a party ran on civil rights and so on alone, cannot win. Nor do I disagree that this is not incredibly painful. I do understand at least a little - some of my family were refugees from Konigsberg when the Russians came and forced population exodus, some were Catholics in Northern Ireland who had to flee being shot due to sectarian strife, and I have some Arab descent, though not enough to appear anything but white. I can't pretend that I share anywhere near the same situation, but I do have at least some small inkling. I didn't grow up in a wealthy household - I was raised by a single parent who worked as a tourist guide for the local council. So I know a little of what that indignity involves.
But what I'm saying is that: despite this, things aren't over. A civil rights party alone can't win. But there is a huge mass of Americans who, frankly, don't care either way about civil rights. It just doesn't factor into their voting decision at all. They can vote for Obama as easily as they can for Trump. And that means a civil rights party can win... if it is a ____ and civil rights party, if it can build a coalition with people who don't care about civil rights but need another bloc to work with to achieve their goals. That's not great. But it is better than nothing.
And I think shutting off all the people who don't care either way about civil rights - won't vote for it, won't vote against it - as white nationalists is just giving away any chance of ever protecting minorities again.
She was a woman.
She valued listening and compromise over claiming that things were simple and bulling through problems.
She understood the complexities of the world.
She talked, openly, about the systemic racism in America and the need for all people, even those who consider themselves allies, to check their privilege.
She believed in intersectionality and in reaching out to disadvantaged people of all sorts to give them a voice, find out what they need, and help them accomplish their goals.
She was a terrible candidate for America. But I don't think the fault lies with her.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
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nature boy
Member
It's already happening, mandatory by NC law (just checked)
Oh man they going to be very disappointed,people are fickle and want results day one.
And this is why the electorate are the issue. Because, as with Brexit, they voted on feelings. And this is also why there needs to be a full campaign to get the mid-terms, because the DNC needs to educate the electorate about why they're going to get screwed by Trump. Not just say it, but walk them through it.
Because, lord knows, if they can't do that, the US and everyone in it is doomed.
No, I don't either. And this is why I'm angry. Because fuck stupid people thinking everything is simple. Fuck them for ruining other people's lives. Like GG'ers who think it's all about ethics in videogames, Trump supporters want to protest, but don't care enough to think about the issues, or what the end result could be.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Honestly, man? I agree entirely.
But that appears to be a nonoption right now. So at least we should pick somebody who, in their inexperience, would at least try to do the right thing.
I could vote Perlman yeah.
Exactly. The Democratic platform is oriented towards those people in a huge way, but they demonstrably do not give any actual fucks about policy. How do you tune your message to address the policy concerns of people whose only real policy is "I'd like a time machine please."
She was flawed in the sense that the Republicans had been lying about her for so long that people believed them.
Maybe that's why we need a neophyte. Not because they have the "anti-establishment" vibe, but because the Republicans won't have time to destroy them.
Angry Fork
Member
I'm not trying to say this lightly but honestly the choices are 1. change their mind or 2. send them to the gulag. Liberals are too soft for the 2nd and don't want to do the 1st because it's icky so not sure what you guys are expecting.
All the bernie bro's went and physically fought back against Trump's people at rallies and all of you hall monitor centrists talked about how bad it made democrats look and how it was bad for the discourse and bla bla bla. A fascist headquarters is firebombed and liberals come together to donate to them for the sake of civility. Is fascism a real threat or not? They can't make up their minds.
Yes.
One of my realizations last night is that maybe we really should have organized the Democratic Party as a system for suppressing white voters, giving free stuff to minorities, and advancing identity interests in zero-sum ways. The Republican Party proves that's a winning strategy!
IggyChooChoo
Member
I'm not convinced there was a right candidate, given Feingold's colossal failure to appeal to Wisconsin voters. Maybe no one would have overcome Trump pulling ten million new older WWC voters out of the woodwork in the Midwest.
All true, but this was not the cycle for her. At a time when the electorate was clearly voicing their displeasure with the status quo, the Democrats put forth a Clinton as the nominee of the party.
Where the party goes from here is anyone's guess at this point. Maybe Kayne could win, I don't even fucking know anymore.
Perhaps, though I would imagine the disillusioned Sanders supporters that jumped ship to joke candidates like Stein and Johnson would have made the difference. Maybe get out millenials to vote?
Main takeaway, as it always is: It's about the economy, stupid. He promised poor, working class white people jobs. That's enough to overlook everything else.
thehypocrite
Member
It works with the right candidate for doing that in the key battleground states, not with the worst.
Candidates win elections, you cannot fix by design and policies what keeps you from even presenting them and actually being heard. The candidate.
This makes me sad. 🙁
I'm not going to disagree that these people are racist. If you vote for an open racist, you are a racist IMO. But, you can't underestimate how much people just hated Hilary. This election was NEVER about policy. A more inspiring candidate could have turned the tide especially since there is evidence of low voter turnout and lack of enthusiasm.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
You lie your ass off, destroying the last bit of integrity the party has, and American democracy dies
Basileus777
Member
It's only a winning strategy when your race is the overwhelming majority of the country.
I think her main weaknesses - as a function of herself and not the GOP hit machine or the media or being an "insider" - were her charisma and oratory skills.
However, weirdly, I think she beats Jeb or a lot of the Republican establishment candidates. I really underestimated how much the country was willing to put up with lies, racism, sexism, fascism, etc. because they thought the dude was "charismatic" or an "outsider" or whatever.
The lesson from last night will be that both parties will likely throw away these points in future elections. I feel sick. When others in here talk about better appealing to the WWC (which I think is good to do in theory), I'm not sure they realize how painful it will be if the way to do that is throw away all of the above to anyone who is a PoC.
metalslimer
Member
Clinton was a terrible candidate for right now, and that fact will haunt me for decades.
I never said violent resistance was a bad idea or donated to the NC GOP. You are confusing me with white liberals.
The deplorables remark was accurate, and while it may have hurt her with some voters, burying our heads in the sand regarding the hatred that Trump has brought out of people is not an option.
clevbrowns94
Member
I only started paying attention to elections around 2004 (I was 17 in 2000). That election, you had the feeling Kerry would lose, and he did. 2008 and 2012 were over quick. But this was surreal, and I've never seen anything like it in my life. From jubilation to feeling less good after Florida, to real panic, to holy shit, Trump is going to win, all within about an hour or less. I still can't believe Trump won states like Wisconsin, Michigan (still not called), and Pennsylvania, and the last time a Republican won those states I was playing with old school Ninja Turtles. and NES...in 1988! The whole time, we talked about him picking off a state in the blue wall, and he got three of them or more. The whole thing just calls into question everything you think you know and understand about this country and the whole human race.
For what it's worth, I don't think Sanders would have won either. He may have done a little better, but he was too easy to paint as a radial socialist and to scare off independents. I think only Joe Biden could have beaten Trump because he would have appealed better to white working class voters, no one would vote against him because of being a woman, and he didn't have any baggage like Hillary.
For what it's worth, I don't think Sanders would have won either. He may have done a little better, but he was too easy to paint as a radial socialist and to scare off independents. I think only Joe Biden could have beaten Trump because he would have appealed better to white working class voters, no one would vote against him because of being a woman, and he didn't have any baggage like Hillary.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I did this morning on Facebook. I'm not really sure any candidate the Democrats had this year would have won.
Which kind of makes me feel like I wasted all this time paying attention, pushing, fighting online, and hyping up everyone I know.
My mom is furious at me. I had been saying Trump had no chance for months. I showed her the data. I explained the electoral college. It all came crashing down and she doesn't know how to even feel. She thinks the country will turn to Nazism. I don't quite think it's that bad, but I can't remember the last time there was this much fear about a president winning.
...or maybe there was always fear. And I never paid attention to this huge group that were scared out of their minds of Obama. I laughed at them. I thought they were nuts and I'd never be like that.
I'm glad I took today off. I took it off assuming I'd be relaxing and enjoying the afterglow of a great night. I didn't sleep much last night. I had to force some food into me this morning. I need to do some serious thinking and figuring out. I'm not sure my mom will eat or sleep for a few days. I know how she gets. She cried last night as hard as she did when we thought my grandma was going to die. That's how afraid she is. She's as afraid of the future right now as she was when she thought her mother was dying (she wasn't, she recovered and a year and a half later is perfectly fine).
Good morning, PoliGAF! Great job this election cycle 
. I think you may be feeling a little down today. Here's something to cheer you up:
https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/hillary-clintons-19-most-badass-172323186.html
Enjoy!
. I think you may be feeling a little down today. Here's something to cheer you up:https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/hillary-clintons-19-most-badass-172323186.html
Enjoy!
balladofwindfishes
Member
Her getting sick masked it. I have a hunch her getting sick was meaningless, and didn't change the race at all. It was her remark about deplorables that got them fired up. That's why the polls changed when they did. She gave them a reason to get out and vote against her. She validated their beliefs that she was looking down on them and didn't care about them. That liberals think they're better than the rural people.
It was a potentially campaign ending gaffe we didn't notice because a minor other thing happened the next day that masks what the real issue was.
Angry Fork
Member
Fair enough, sorry that I meant it towards you, but I saw that a lot and it's one of the reasons dems continue to be bad and incoherent imo.
I mean, I'll fucking take it, honestly.
Pigeon is more in our corner than theirs, he is just very much in favor of pragmatism/reformism.
IggyChooChoo
Member
I live in Kentucky. Economics are literally all our Democratic politicians promise. And we get destroyed -- especially in the counties that are most dependent on federal welfare. These people are voting identity, not economics. The New Deal means nothing to them compared to pride.
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