PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented

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It would always annoy me that some far left liberals are totally fine with Gabbard but not Clinton and it reeks hypocrisy.

I don't think Gabbard is as capable as Obama even. More democrats actually care about civil rights and anti-nationalist tendencies.

And god damn it, Merkel. Just when I respected her as the reasonable voice within Europe.
 
Ryuuroden said:
You are going to have to vote how black people vote, figure out who fucks you over the least. It sucks but think about how much more fucked minorities would be today had they just said fuck it, both candidates are racists and don't care about me, i just won't vote at all. You can make a good argument that not as much has been done as should have been done for African Americans but if they didn't vote at all no one would do anything at all for them period. And yes I think that is a disgusting truth about America.
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No, we will not let our party get taken over by bigots. This is surrendering. Whats next? Hillary's Stronger Together message worked. She won the popular vote. Lets not throw everyone under the Tulsi bus just to win. She met with Trump for a talk of joining his administration. Trump is a neonazi enabling fascist. She was conspicuously absent from the letter denouncing Bannon, a sole absentee. She voted in favor of Syrian refugee ban with the GOP. Is this who we really want?
 
Pixieking said:
Thing to bear in mind here - yes, Tulsi sucks. But:

Will she nominate a centre or centre-left SCOTUS judge?
Will she push for women's rights? Equal pay, access to abortion, etc?
Will she push for Climate Change policies?
Will she be a hawk or a dove?

Dems seem to be a demographic that needs multiple reasons to vote for someone, but only one reason to not vote for someone.

And that is one of the reasons Hillary lost, amongst all the others.
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Yep, this is so fucking true. I know too many liberal minded people who simply just don't vote due to the candidate only supporting 70% of their views but because candidate for instance supports drone strikes, won't vote for them. Yes drone strikes suck but really? You gonna let a person you 100% don't agree with or even 20% agree with win?. Yes there are different magnitudes of how big a deal each reason might be. Your candidate supports 90% of you views but they believe you should die/be imprisoned, that would be a big deal breaker but do you really think that one extremist view would be supported by the rest of the party that by its nature doesn't support that view. The president can't do anything by themselves. You can check an extremist democrat, your not going to check an extremist republican. This is at least as matters stand now.

Edit: this is just said as a hypothetical instance. I am totally opposed to ever letting this become a possibility just to win and tulsi knows that shit don't fly with dem voters.
 
RustyNails said:
And make Muslims feel like a targeted group as well. Ask yourself if its worth it. Should we ask any x,y or z minority group to take it on the chin because progressivism is at stake? OR lets find somebody who does all of that and is not a crazy person when it comes to Islam and terrorism. We had that somebody in Hillary and even Bernie. Tulsi is not that somebody.
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Oh, I agree. Tulsi sucks. Big time. No doubts.

But in a hypothetical Trump v Tulsi battle, Tulsi would be the better choice. And saying you wouldn't vote if Tulsi is the nominee is just saying you a) would rather Trump won, and b) don't see that whilst both are astonishingly bad, they're not equally as bad as each-other.
 
RustyNails said:
No, we will not let our party get taken over by bigots. This is surrendering. Whats next? Hillary's Stronger Together message worked. She won the popular vote. Lets not throw everyone under the Tulsi bus just to win. She met with Trump for a talk of joining his administration. Trump is a neonazi enabling fascist. She was conspicuously absent from the letter denouncing Bannon, a sole absentee. She voted in favor of Syrian refugee ban with the GOP. Is this who we really want?
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Nope fuck that. Her sole qualification was that she was a big Bernie supporter and has really shown nothing that would indicate she is a good leader for the democratic party.

That being said, I would have to hold my nose and vote for her only because even more people would be hurt with Trump winning.
 
RustyNails said:
And make Muslims feel like a targeted group as well. Ask yourself if its worth it. Should we ask any x,y or z minority group to take it on the chin because progressivism is at stake? OR lets find somebody who does all of that and is not a crazy person when it comes to Islam and terrorism. We had that somebody in Hillary and even Bernie. Tulsi is not that somebody.
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Yeah, all of those questions are what right wing people asked themselves before they voted Trump. We can either do the same thing as them or not. If you do the former, you lose the ability to argue with right wing people on this moral ground. You cannot tell people who held their nose and voted Trump that they should feel bad about their vote. That is the very definition of hypocrisy.
 
Pixieking said:
Oh, I agree. Tulsi sucks. Big time. No doubts.

But in a hypothetical Trump v Tulsi battle, Tulsi would be the better choice. And saying you wouldn't vote if Tulsi is the nominee is just saying you a) would rather Trump won, and b) don't see that whilst both are astonishingly bad, they're not equally as bad as each-other.
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Actually, it's not. It's drawing a moral line and expecting the Democratic Party to meet it.

Go tell the "progressives" and white working-class Democrats that freedom of religion is non-negotiable instead of telling the people who will be victimized that they'll just have to suck it up in pursuit of progressive policies for white men.
 
VendettaRed07 said:
I think you are over estimating how much people will care about not fully embracing Obama this cycle will matter really. 3-4 years is a long time and unless Dems are amazing at totally obstructing Trumps fuckery establishment democrats will be blamed for every single bit of damage that is done. Sure I am probably overestimating her too but I fully anticipate there being an even larger wave of "someone different/not establishment" candidate in four years given how the establishment Dems fully and completely failed this election. It could totally be someone else and I hope it is definitely but we are seriously depleted in "up coming stars" or rising candidates. I'm not trying to appoint anyone really either I'm just trying to be prepared for where we might go or where voters might flock in response to Dems blowing what should have been the easiest election of all time
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There's a reason why I said "look at a 2008/2016" primary map. I'm not talking about general election. It's not 'people' who have to care about Obama. It's that black people care a lot about Obama. The south is worth quite a good deal in delegates.

"Someone different" is also not qualification enough. For Gabbard to make it to the general, she has to get through primary. And she won't, because her record and her history means she won't make it past phase 1. That's without even considering her opponents.

You're not thinking straight, Vendetta. Drop the subject and revisit two years from now.
 
pigeon said:
Disgusting. There goes Germany as the bastion of freedom and tolerance, though as I type those words I realize I shouldn't be surprised really.
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We keep thinking Trump is some special unique thing to America - to be honest, America's one of the last multi-cultural western countries to have to deal with the rise of the xenophobic / nationalistic part of their right wing (Thanks Obama! Alas he cannot stop the tide). It's been more or less baked into most of the European countries (many of which we fawn over)

Also, last couple of pages remind me of the quote "Liberals fall in love, Conservatives fall in line". I don't disagree with kirblar / pigeon / other comments about Gabbard, but if she won the primary (I would vote for someone else in the primary, admittedly..not a giant fan of Gabbard), I'd absolutely vote for her versus say a Rubio. Can't risk another GWB / Trump / etc causing far more targeted harm.
 
Pixieking said:
Oh, I agree. Tulsi sucks. Big time. No doubts.

But in a hypothetical Trump v Tulsi battle, Tulsi would be the better choice. And saying you wouldn't vote if Tulsi is the nominee is just saying you a) would rather Trump won, and b) don't see that whilst both are astonishingly bad, they're not equally as bad as each-other.
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This is what I'm talking about. It's valid to take this stance, but recognize that if I change 'Trump' to 'Hillary' in this context, you're basically quoting Republicans when talking to moderates.

I see the logic in fighting fire with fire, but doing this means you cannot criticize moderates who voted Trump. You agree with their logic.
 
Cybit said:
We keep thinking Trump is some special unique thing to America - to be honest, America's one of the last multi-cultural western countries to have to deal with the rise of the xenophobic / nationalistic part of their right wing (Thanks Obama! Alas he cannot stop the tide). It's been more or less baked into most of the European countries (many of which we fawn over)

Also, last couple of pages remind me of the quote "Liberals fall in love, Conservatives fall in line". I don't disagree with kirblar / pigeon / other comments about Gabbard, but if she won the primary (I would vote for someone else in the primary, admittedly..not a giant fan of Gabbard), I'd absolutely vote for her versus say a Rubio. Can't risk another GWB / Trump / etc causing far more targeted harm.
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If the Democratic Party's conclusion from 2016 is that they need to embrace islamophobia, I don't see that I have any choice except for voting for an actual progressive party, even if it means I have to start one.

Like I said, Trump's presidency is a great opportunity to identify which people have moral principles, and which people acted like they have moral principles because they perceived a societal expectation to do so.
 
pigeon said:
Actually, it's not. It's drawing a moral line and expecting the Democratic Party to meet it.

Go tell the "progressives" and white working-class Democrats that freedom of religion is non-negotiable instead of telling the people who will be victimized that they'll just have to suck it up in pursuit of progressive policies for white men.
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Morals and ideals are fine for the Primary! Let me be clear, I'm not saying I like Tulsi, I don't (where does all this Tulsi talk come from?).

But - General Election, Trump v Tulsi. That is not drawing the Democratic Party a moral line, that's choosing between two awful scenarios, with one slightly less worse.

And, to clarify, I initially replied to this:

RustyNails said:
Yeah if Dems nominate Tulsi I'm not voting.
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Not voting for a Dem is voting for a Republican. To the point where you may as well vote Republican (they may actually be better than Tulsi, so...).

AntraxSuicide said:
This is what I'm talking about. It's valid to take this stance, but recognize that if I change 'Trump' to 'Hillary' in this context, you're basically quoting Republicans when talking to moderates.

I see the logic in fighting fire with fire, but doing this means you cannot criticize moderates who voted Trump. You agree with their logic.
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Something I was thinking about as I was writing. :) And, in fact, if you change Tulsi to Hillary, it's another reason why the Dems lost this election. It's just one of those arguments. :)
 
pigeon said:
Actually, it's not. It's drawing a moral line and expecting the Democratic Party to meet it.

Go tell the "progressives" and white working-class Democrats that freedom of religion is non-negotiable instead of telling the people who will be victimized that they'll just have to suck it up in pursuit of progressive policies for white men.
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Agreed. I just really hope that the democrats establish themselves and figure out a way to win and regain trust so voters don't lose their minds next cycle and we end up with a divisive candidate
 
Regardless, as said by others, tulsi is a terrible hypothetical example because she does not fit the mojority democratic core values and in the current form of the party would not make it through the primaries but hey she's a good argument to use against open primaries which would help candidates like her.
 
Yesterday I was stumbling around and I found that Kos at DailyKos is backing Ilyse Hogue for DNC Chair over Keith Ellison (though Kos emphasizes Ellison is a personal hero of his).
There are policy reasons. Her agenda delivers a great deal on what I’d love to see happen—from forging ahead with our national-majority broad-based coalition, to focusing on combating our rigged system, to reforming the primary calendar, to refocusing on rebuilding the state parties.

But there’s another, more fundamental reason: Ilyse hails from the netroots, having spent years at MoveOn and Media Matters, as well as Greenpeace and Rainforest Action Network. She has been a staunch defender of women’s rights at NARAL in the face of vicious right-wing vitriol, the worst possible kind. She has spent all her time in activism outside the party apparatus, frustrated as we are at its failings, but realistic about its possibilities. In other words, not only would she be a full-time chair, but she’d come to the job from the same place most of us reading this today would.
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That's a pretty good organizing background. She posted her platform pretty early on.

Anyone care to do a rundown of the platforms by the various candidates running for DNC chair? We can do some comparisons, although I imagine most of them are going to be pretty similar.
 
dramatis said:
Yesterday I was stumbling around and I found that Kos at DailyKos is backing Ilyse Hogue for DNC Chair over Keith Ellison (though Kos emphasizes Ellison is a personal hero of his).

That's a pretty good organizing background. She posted her platform pretty early on.

Anyone care to do a rundown of the platforms by the various candidates running for DNC chair? We can do some comparisons, although I imagine most of them are going to be pretty similar.
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So would this be a good reason for people in America to contact their local DNC office and push for her? Would such a thing do any good?
 
pigeon said:
If the Democratic Party's conclusion from 2016 is that they need to embrace islamophobia, I don't see that I have any choice except for voting for an actual progressive party, even if it means I have to start one.
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Based on the shit Merkel's pulling - I'm starting to worry that the entire Western world might go all in on the islamaphobia thing. :-/

That said, if Ellison wins the DNC chair, at least we know that won't be an issue. :-p (well, that and prepare for Bernie or Warren 2020, cuz you better believe the primary voting schedule for states will get massively changed to aid Bernie/Warren if he becomes DNC chair). In terms of the Dems, I'm not genuinely worried about the Dems embracing islamaphobia any more than greater western society will. If the US as a whole embraces it more than it has, then it turns into a fight that is outside the two party system and aimed at the general populace and current politicians in office (aka, civil rights in the 50s and 60s as well as gay marriage in the 2000s).

EDIT: Dang it, you added more :-p

Like I said, Trump's presidency is a great opportunity to identify which people have moral principles, and which people acted like they have moral principles because they perceived a societal expectation to do so.
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Which one could argue is a consequence of using the "name and shame" philosophy that has been pervasive in modern social media, no?

Also, Tulsi's not getting nominated, lol. If the Bernie / Warren camp pushes a nomination candidate, I think, barring unforeseen circumstances, it would be Warren.
 
I hope they don't change the schedule.. because I'd say the schedule already favors Bernie/Warren

Bernie not winning Iowa killed him. It didn't matter how much it was by but if he won Iowa, and then New Hampshire, there would have been a long ass week till Nevada where the media would go into melt down with the ITS HAPPENING! BERNMENTUM IS REAL, HILLARY CHOKING AGAIN! that could have changed everything. Maybe have been able to swing Nevada. And Bernie could have gone into the next phase winning 3/4 of the first 4 states instead of just one
 
Pixieking said:
Not voting for a Dem is voting for a Republican. To the point where you may as well vote Republican (they may actually be better than Tulsi, so...).
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I understand the thought. But if the Dems calculus, primaries and elections means that they can get more WWC voters than they lose voters like me by nominating people like Tulsi, I'm ok by being left out. I'll join back when someone more unifying like Obama or Hillary show up. Until then, I'll be just working at the local level.
 
VendettaRed07 said:
I hope they don't change the schedule.. because I'd say the schedule already favors Bernie/Warren

Bernie not winning Iowa killed him. It didn't matter how much it was by but if he won Iowa, and then New Hampshire, there would have been a long ass week till Nevada where the media would go into melt down with the ITS HAPPENING! BERNMENTUM IS REAL, HILLARY CHOKING AGAIN! that could have changed everything. Maybe have been able to swing Nevada. And Bernie could have gone into the next phase winning 3/4 of the first 4 states instead of just one
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There's a fight every four years about the schedule, lol. Like freaking clockwork. I don't know if it'll actually get changed - but I know there's always grumbling about it. (GOP goes through same thing as well).

True - had Bernie won Iowa, would have changed the narrative dramatically, and the chance that the Clinton camp panics thinking this is Obama 2.0 and makes a mistake (which they apparently were close to before Obama calmed them down according to Politico) gets higher. But Devine was also over his head I think, so there is that issue going forward. :-p
 
RustyNails said:
I understand the thought. But if the Dems calculus, primaries and elections means that they can get more WWC voters than they lose voters like me by nominating people like Tulsi, I'm ok by being left out. I'll join back when someone more unifying like Obama or Hillary show up. Until then, I'll be just working at the local level.
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We made the same sort of mistake in the 90s going so far on "tough on crime" and dog whistling to Dixiecrats. They did not have to do that or go nearly as far as they did in order to win. We should be aiming to have presidents we can be truly proud of in retrospect instead of conceding on social issues that are too controversial in a given period of time for better perceived guarantees on short term wins
 
I know the Iowa caucus is hated here but I think it's an important place for candidates to have to prove their organization (since the caucus demands it) and the candidate's ability to go out and do some retail politics.
 
VendettaRed07 said:
We made the same sort of mistake in the 90s going so far on "tough on crime" and dog whistling to Dixiecrats. They did not have to do that or go nearly as far as they did in order to win. We should be aiming to have presidents we can be truly proud of in retrospect instead of conceding on social issues that are too controversial in a given period of time for better perceived guarantees on short term wins
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I could see a really bad Trump presidency potentially causing the same thing to happen again - Dem leadership believing that they have a moral imperative to win at all costs to stop a potential Trump second term (and the harm it would inflict); and that ends justify the means.
 
Cybit said:
I could see a really bad Trump presidency potentially causing the same thing to happen again - Dem leadership believing that they have a moral imperative to win at all costs to stop a potential Trump second term (and the harm it would inflict); and that ends justify the means.
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That's why it's important for voters of color, religious minorities, and all allies to organize and present a united front that rejects hatred now, instead of spending their time laying the groundwork for the Democrats to nominate an islamophobic candidate as the "lesser of two evils."
 
pigeon said:
That's why it's important for voters of color, religious minorities, and all allies to organize and present a united front that rejects hatred now, instead of spending their time laying the groundwork for the Democrats to nominate an islamophobic candidate as the "lesser of two evils."
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You can present the united front now while understanding that if your front is rejected, that you may find yourself in a position to pick between the lesser of two evils. I fear that one of the unfortunate truths of 2016 may be that the GOP found themselves in that position, voted along party lines, and now finds themselves in control of a large chunk of the country. That's a hard pill to swallow. However...

Was texting a GOP counterpart about this a few minutes ago, and I think the interesting test is 2018. Regardless of whether it actually matters to voters, basically, we see it as this: In 2017 the Dems will choose a path forward (concentration on Economic Justice, concentration on Social Justice, or concentration on both equally seems to be the current options) and campaign on it in 2018. 2018 elections will happen, and if the Dems do better in the elections, they'll go forward with that path (even if they do better because it's a mid-term election and the party with the presidency tends to get shellacked in those midterms). If the Dems do worse (because the electoral map in the Senate highly favors the GOP in 2018, for instance), they'll reject that path and pick the opposite path. This is the downside of focusing on outcome rather than process. Which may end up being a long term consequence of the 2016 election for the GOP - by uniting under the "lesser of two evils" (in a GOP voters' mind); are they risking longer-term party stress / disunity.
 
Cybit said:
You can present the united front now while understanding that if your front is rejected, that you may find yourself in a position to pick between the lesser of two evils.
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Tell the Busters that, not me. I'm just learning the lesson from them.
 
Totakeke said:
Trump sold all shares in companies in June, spokesman says

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...419d44-bbcf-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html
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Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald 12m12 minutes ago

I have searched everywhere. I cannot find anything saying there was a $4B cost overrun in 3wk old Air Force One contract. Trump made it up.
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If true, he's pissed off a massive company in the military-industrial complex, as well as affecting contractor's jobs.
 
pigeon said:
Actually, it's not. It's drawing a moral line and expecting the Democratic Party to meet it.

Go tell the "progressives" and white working-class Democrats that freedom of religion is non-negotiable instead of telling the people who will be victimized that they'll just have to suck it up in pursuit of progressive policies for white men.
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So basically ___ or bust huh, dat purity test!

Still don't understand what's so bad about Tulsi. She has the only rational response to the Syrian conflict.

And if you are talking about her so-called "islamaphobia", let me remind you that the phrase "radical Islamic terrorism" is used by plenty of leftists including Bill Maher, Sam Harris and heck even Jimmy Kimmel. The morality of using said phrase is another topic, but to simply say it does not make one an islamaphobe, lol.
 
Totakeke said:
Trading algorithms should have learned by now to ignore any news that sources Trump.
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Unfortunately they can't, given he's the president. Even though Trump is fuckfaces his words and actions are important and can, and will, affect the world around us. Which is a big part of the reason we're in real deep right now.

Azzanadra said:
So basically ___ or bust huh, dat purity test!

Still don't understand what's so bad about Tulsi. She has the only rational response to the Syrian conflict.

And if you are talking about her so-called "islamaphobia", let me remind you that the phrase "radical Islamic terrorism" is used by plenty of leftists including Bill Maher, Sam Harris and heck even Jimmy Kimmel. The morality of using said phrase is another topic, but to simply say it does not make one an islamaphobe, lol.
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Have you heard Bill Maher talk about islam, or religion in general? He's not exactly a poster child for tolerance in this area.
 
Azzanadra said:
So basically ___ or bust huh, dat purity test!
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I am actually astonished by all the people who apparently have no moral center.

Yes, I will refuse to vote for a candidate that advocates islamophobia. I told people to do that with Donald Trump. It would be astonishingly hypocritical of me to not do the same.

The problem with the Busters was not that they had a moral line. It's that it was a stupid moral line that privileged their concerns over the right of people of color and religious minorities to live in peace in America.

So I guess I'm not surprised they're advocating the exact same thing now.
 
Azzanadra said:
So basically ___ or bust huh, dat purity test!

Still don't understand what's so bad about Tulsi. She has the only rational response to the Syrian conflict.

And if you are talking about her so-called "islamaphobia", let me remind you that the phrase "radical Islamic terrorism" is used by plenty of leftists including Bill Maher, Sam Harris and heck even Jimmy Kimmel. The morality of using said phrase is another topic, but to simply say it does not make one an islamaphobe, lol.
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Sam Harris and Bill Maher are pieces of shit when it comes to Islam. New Atheists are just as worse as alt-right on Islam. At least they can unite there.
 
why would a Liberal Secularist go out of their way to defend Conservative religious beliefs when that Religious Conservatism negates Liberal values?
 
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