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[Abinash117]

I floated this idea in the other thread but the more I think about it the more I believe Tulsi Gabbard might be a big player in 2020. I think she managed to pull off what we thought Ted Cruz was going to do with his convention speech and railing against Trump to position him self for 2020 in case Trump lost badly.

She's clearly ambitious but she bet her entire career by holding out and not falling in line with the DNC, and not backing Hillary and I believe it might pay off. Almost no one else who might be in the picture is going to be able to pull an "I told you so" like Obama did in 08 that other candidates aren't going to have much off an answer for. Being able to say she stood up to the establishment and stood against what she thought was wrong with the party is going to play really well with voters in Iowa and New Hampshire I think..

She also to me seemingly has an ability to move past sexist double standards in a similar way Obama was able to get people to look past racist double standards.. I know that we dismissed social media and YouTube or whatever as being a vocal minority but based on the election results that crowd I think is a better indicator than we give it credit for.. like look at any YouTube comments section or social media post/blog about Tulsi and compare it with Hillary. There's a clear and obvious difference there and I think she has done probably what she thought she needed to do in order to maintain street cred with voters she feels she may need in the future

And I know before anyone says it,"but she's more conservative than Hillary so progressives won't like her". If we learned anything it's that people will look past flaws and make excuses for candidates that they like and want to win. Facts don't matter as much as perception and I think she has the capability to maintain that on her side.. or at least has so far

How she'll perform with minority voters, I'm not too sure.. but even if she does poorly based on the amount of candidates that will likely run and the options that are out there it's hard for me to imagine anyone who has the ability to win minority voters by such massive margins like Obama and Hillary did. There's likely not going to be anyone in the running that has deep connections with the obama coalition and Obama (and probably Hillary too) will likely stay out of the primary and not support anyone till the dust settles like he did this time.

Now I'm just throwing this out there as a possibility for what might happen rather than something I would want. Like it's crazy risky to even consider her, and not sure if she would have the capability to mount a run that could potentially win but I think she has a lot of upside and a lot of things going for her. She's young, she's hot, she's a vet, she's got a comparable experience to Obama prior to being POTUS if not slightly more by 2020 considering her time in the military and she has set herself up well for 2020 if she actually wants to go for it and I don't think it would be crazy to somewhat prepare for her being a factor.

Joe probably has the potential of getting the minority vote easily I think, but she is largely unknown which doesn't always work out . Bernie succeed in competing while being unknown for the most part, but he still lost. If Joe runs in 2020 he'll crush her probably in many demographics. Bernie had a good message during the primary, maybe Tulsei will too.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Yeah if Dems nominate Tulsi I'm not voting.

I wouldn't blame you

 

[studyguy]

Tulsi wouldn't make it.
I still don't understand where the push for her is coming from in the slightest. Feels like it's from the progressive wing despite the fact that she's anything but progressive. If we're calling her progressive by her voting record, then Clinton might as well have been a socialist by hers in comparison.

 

[Fedelias]

I'd hold my nose for pretty much any Democrat considering the state of the Republicans/Trump, but I'd really prefer someone other than Tulsi Gabbard.

 

[Hindl]

I love all the 20/20 hindsight analysis of Biden winning in a landslide.

Biden could've beaten Trump but I doubt he would've gotten out of the primaries in the first place

 

[Frank the Great]

Yeah if Dems nominate Tulsi I'm not voting.

This is why Democrats are losers.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Yeah if Dems nominate Tulsi I'm not voting.

Same. Couldn't support a person like that at all.

 

[Modest Mauser]

Gross. I just found out my school sponsored a Milo Yiannopoulos speech at the student center yesterday. I know Miami is pretty conservative (it is Paul Ryan's alma mater, after all), but the tiny protest with a full auditorium was pretty disappointing :/

It blows my mind this guy gets an audience with the truly awful things he writes online. It's not even a matter of opinion or worldview, the guy is just super racist and sexist.

 

[pigeon]

Yeah, I mean, responding to Donald Trump by sending a suspected Hindu nationalist to the plate is...pretty bad. Put me in for Evan McMullin in that case. First and Fourteenth Amendments are the most important issues today.

This is why Democrats are losers.

I agree. Our unwillingness to support persecution of minorities is why the Democrats have trouble competing in America. But I don't think we should change it.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yeah if Dems nominate Tulsi I'm not voting.

Given the choice between second term Trump and Tulsi you'd prefer second term Trump?

 

[pigeon]

Tulsi wouldn't make it.
I still don't understand where the push for her is coming from in the slightest. Feels like it's from the progressive wing despite the fact that she's anything but progressive. If we're calling her progressive by her voting record, then Clinton might as well have been a socialist by hers in comparison.

That's why calling it the "progressive wing" is so annoying. Bernie or Busters aren't more progressive. They're more class-focused. I refuse to let them steal the ideology we've been fighting for for years because they think economic justice is more important than social justice.

 

[RustyNails]

Given the choice between second term Trump and Tulsi you'd prefer second term Trump?

I cant vote for either. I cant live with myself voting for someone vehemently Islamophobic. I dont want to be a "one issue voter" but its a dealbreaker for me.

 

[Frank the Great]

Given the choice between second term Trump and Tulsi you'd prefer second term Trump?

Liberals will never learn.

Staying at home or voting McMuffin is not voting your conscious. It's voting for Trump and a Republican SCOTUS.

We just lost a major election and people STILL think like this. This is why liberals suck at politics, all over the world.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Tulsi wouldn't make it.
I still don't understand where the push for her is coming from in the slightest. Feels like it's from the progressive wing despite the fact that she's anything but progressive. If we're calling her progressive by her voting record, then Clinton might as well have been a socialist by hers in comparison.

I think the fact that they like her in spite of that is a pretty good sign in her favor. I think she's politically smart enough to move on that stuff if she needs to like Hillary did. Difference is it probably will probably buy into it when she does rather than dismiss it. Hillary basically drastically changed her entire platform mid election but because she was viewed as untrustworthy it didn't convince anyone. Not sure if she would have that same problem

My primary vote is already locked in for Warren but I think the fact that she didn't back Bernie is going to hurt her

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I cant vote for either. I cant live with myself voting for someone vehemently Islamophobic. I dont want to be a "one issue voter" but its a dealbreaker for me.

The choice between Trump and Gabbard means an Islamaphobe will be president. Which would you prefer for everything else they believe in? Neither isn't an option in this hypothetical because they'd be the two candidates.

And who knows where she'll be in 4 years with her views on Islam.

 

[pigeon]

Liberals will never learn.

Staying at home or voting McMuffin is not voting your conscious. It's voting for Trump and a Republican SCOTUS.

We just lost a major election and people STILL think like this. This is why liberals suck at politics, all over the world.

Running an Islamophobe is not trying to beat Donald Trump. It's trying to join him.

 

[pigeon]

The choice between Trump and Gabbard means an Islamaphobe will be president. Which would you prefer for everything else they believe in? Neither isn't an option in this hypothetical because they'd be the two candidates.

In that situation, as I've said, we should fight for economic and social justice in ways that don't involve competing in American federal elections.

 

[RustyNails]

I wouldn't blame you

And I dont have problem voting for Hindu, Christian or a FSM believer. Heck I am proud of voting for Raja Krishnamoorthy who is the Congressman from IL-8, which was left vacant by Duckworth's Senate win. I'd love to see him on national stage. But I dont like anyone Dems or otherwise with "nationalism" attached around them and they (Dems) going on Fox News and throw Obama under the bus for refusing to use the term Radical Islamic Terrorism.

 

[RustyNails]

The choice between Trump and Gabbard means an Islamaphobe will be president. Which would you prefer for everything else they believe in? Neither isn't an option in this hypothetical because they'd be the two candidates.

And who knows where she'll be in 4 years with her views on Islam.

This is not easy but I cannot vote for either because of my identity as Muslim American US citizen. We have seen 70% rise in hate crimes since Trump appeared on stage in 2015. We are scared of sending our mom anywhere on her own, especially in a plane since she wears the traditional hijab. This is the personal experience from having someone Islamophobic on national stage. Tulsi is not going to help here.

 

[dramatis]

I floated this idea in the other thread but the more I think about it the more I believe Tulsi Gabbard might be a big player in 2020. I think she managed to pull off what we thought Ted Cruz was going to do with his convention speech and railing against Trump to position him self for 2020 in case Trump lost badly.

She's clearly ambitious but she bet her entire career by holding out and not falling in line with the DNC, and not backing Hillary and I believe it might pay off. Almost no one else who might be in the picture is going to be able to pull an "I told you so" like Obama did in 08 that other candidates aren't going to have much off an answer for. Being able to say she stood up to the establishment and stood against what she thought was wrong with the party is going to play really well with voters in Iowa and New Hampshire I think..

She also to me seemingly has an ability to move past sexist double standards in a similar way Obama was able to get people to look past racist double standards.. I know that we dismissed social media and YouTube or whatever as being a vocal minority but based on the election results that crowd I think is a better indicator than we give it credit for.. like look at any YouTube comments section or social media post/blog about Tulsi and compare it with Hillary. There's a clear and obvious difference there and I think she has done probably what she thought she needed to do in order to maintain street cred with voters she feels she may need in the future

And I know before anyone says it,"but she's more conservative than Hillary so progressives won't like her". If we learned anything it's that people will look past flaws and make excuses for candidates that they like and want to win. Facts don't matter as much as perception and I think she has the capability to maintain that on her side.. or at least has so far

How she'll perform with minority voters, I'm not too sure.. but even if she does poorly based on the amount of candidates that will likely run and the options that are out there it's hard for me to imagine anyone who has the ability to win minority voters by such massive margins like Obama and Hillary did. There's likely not going to be anyone in the running that has deep connections with the obama coalition and Obama (and probably Hillary too) will likely stay out of the primary and not support anyone till the dust settles like he did this time.

Now I'm just throwing this out there as a possibility for what might happen rather than something I would want. Like it's crazy risky to even consider her, and not sure if she would have the capability to mount a run that could potentially win but I think she has a lot of upside and a lot of things going for her. She's young, she's hot, she's a vet, she's got a comparable experience to Obama prior to being POTUS if not slightly more by 2020 considering her time in the military and she has set herself up well for 2020 if she actually wants to go for it and I don't think it would be crazy to somewhat prepare for her being a factor.

I think you're vastly overestimating her.

Tulsi Gabbard did the one thing that is going to lose her the Democratic primary, which means she'll never make it to general election. She went and made a ruckus of opposing Obama. Now that that's on record, she's not going to be winning the Democratic primary. Opposing Hillary and opposing Obama is what will cost her, not help her. So much time spent screaming about DNC emails and favoritism, and not one of those people looked at a 2008 primaries map or a 2016 primaries map and see the actual reasons why Obama/Hillary won. If you're hoping that minority vote just won't come out for the primaries so that Gabbard can slide by, aren't you just wishing for voter suppression? If her opponent in the primaries is Corey Booker, you think she'll just squeeze through?

She also won't be getting by in CA/NY because of her even-worse past with LGBT than Hillary.

You're stuck on crowning the next heir apparent, when that was apparently what the Sanders side opposed for this whole election.

 

[Totakeke]

There's a public lecture tonight by Paul Krugman in NYC titled “Public Discourse In A Time Of Crazy.”.

https://www.nypl.org/events/programs/2016/12/06/paul-krugman-robert-b-silvers-lecture

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Nancy Pelosi has no impact on general election contests. She's a master of her job and I'd rather have her cracking skulls in the House and embarrassing Paul Ryan whenever possible than someone new/untested.

 

[pigeon]

I don't thInk this problem is that hard. Instead of arguing for a candidate that is bad on social justice and just hoping all the social justice voters will vote for you because they have nothing to lose, just let that candidate go and argue for a candidate that has solidarity.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

This is not easy but I cannot vote for either because of my identity as Muslim American US citizen. We have seen 70% rise in hate crimes since Trump appeared on stage in 2015. We are scared of sending our mom anywhere on her own, especially in a plane since she wears the traditional hijab. This is the personal experience from having someone Islamophobic on national stage. Tulsi is not going to help here.

I have no frame of reference for this. I'm a middle class catholic white dude. I'm about as far away from being a minority as possible. I'm also not entirely well versed in just how bad her bigotry is.

But I don't think Gabbard would ever win a primary. She'll have stiff competition, since 2020 will be seen as an "easy" win for the Democrat.

 

[VendettaRed07]

I think you're vastly overestimating her.

Tulsi Gabbard did the one thing that is going to lose her the Democratic primary, which means she'll never make it to general election. She went and made a ruckus of opposing Obama. Now that that's on record, she's not going to be winning the Democratic primary. Opposing Hillary and opposing Obama is what will cost her, not help her. So much time spent screaming about DNC emails and favoritism, and not one of those people looked at a 2008 primaries map or a 2016 primaries map and see the actual reasons why Obama/Hillary won. If you're hoping that minority vote just won't come out for the primaries so that Gabbard can slide by, aren't you just wishing for voter suppression? If her opponent in the primaries is Corey Booker, you think she'll just squeeze through?

She also won't be getting by in CA/NY because of her even-worse past with LGBT than Hillary.

You're stuck on crowning the next heir apparent, when that was apparently what the Sanders side opposed for this whole election.

I think you are over estimating how much people will care about not fully embracing Obama this cycle will matter really. 3-4 years is a long time and unless Dems are amazing at totally obstructing Trumps fuckery establishment democrats will be blamed for every single bit of damage that is done. Sure I am probably overestimating her too but I fully anticipate there being an even larger wave of "someone different/not establishment" candidate in four years given how the establishment Dems fully and completely failed this election. It could totally be someone else and I hope it is definitely but we are seriously depleted in "up coming stars" or rising candidates. I'm not trying to appoint anyone really either I'm just trying to be prepared for where we might go or where voters might flock in response to Dems blowing what should have been the easiest election of all time

 

[pigeon]

The reason people say it was the easiest election of all time is because they're still in denial about the appeal of white supremacy as an election strategy, despite all the historical evidence.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

There's a public lecture tonight by Paul Krugman in NYC titled “Public Discourse In A Time Of Crazy.”.

https://www.nypl.org/events/programs/2016/12/06/paul-krugman-robert-b-silvers-lecture

damn, tickets are gone

 

[VendettaRed07]

The reason people say it was the easiest election of all time is because they're still in denial about the appeal of white supremacy as an election strategy, despite all the historical evidence.

It's true but I just don't think that will be the narrative that people think about. It will likely be "establishment Dems rigged the election and gave us a bad candidate so we don't trust them anymore or anyone in their in crowd" and they'll probably vote accordingly

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Biden could've beaten Trump but I doubt he would've gotten out of the primaries in the first place

Career politician who has fucked the working man and was Obama's right hand man vs. Self made billionaire


Trump still easily wins the brexit states

 

[Suikoguy]

It's true but I just don't think that will be the narrative that people think about. It will likely be "establishment Dems rigged the election and gave us a bad candidate so we don't trust them anymore or anyone in their in crowd" and they'll probably vote accordingly

Hmm, who started that narrative?

 

[kirblar]

Gabbard is awful. Xenophobic and opportunistic. Being "progressive" isn't an excuse for being absolutely terrible in other areas.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Career politician who has fucked the working man and was Obama's right hand man vs. Self made billionaire


Trump still easily wins the brexit states

Easily win makes it sound like he easily won them, which is not shown by the tiny margins in all of them and discounts Biden's strongest demographic being Hillary's weakest.

We should stop fantasizing about it though, because it didn't happen and won't happen and we need to gear up for the days ahead.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Easily win makes it sound like he easily won them, which is not shown by the tiny margins in all of them and discounts Biden's strongest demographic being Hillary's weakest.

We should stop fantasizing about it though, because it didn't happen and won't happen and we need to gear up for the days ahead.

I agree, I only was saying that to point out the equally ludicrous discussions of "if only ____ ran instead" arguments

 

[Pixieking]

Yeah if Dems nominate Tulsi I'm not voting.

Thing to bear in mind here - yes, Tulsi sucks. But:

Will she nominate a centre or centre-left SCOTUS judge?
Will she push for women's rights? Equal pay, access to abortion, etc?
Will she push for Climate Change policies?
Will she be a hawk or a dove?

Dems seem to be a demographic that needs multiple reasons to vote for someone, but only one reason to not vote for someone.

And that is one of the reasons Hillary lost, amongst all the others.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

I think you are over estimating how much people will care about not fully embracing Obama this cycle will matter really. 3-4 years is a long time and unless Dems are amazing at totally obstructing Trumps fuckery establishment democrats will be blamed for every single bit of damage that is done. Sure I am probably overestimating her too but I fully anticipate there being an even larger wave of "someone different/not establishment" candidate in four years given how the establishment Dems fully and completely failed this election. It could totally be someone else and I hope it is definitely but we are seriously depleted in "up coming stars" or rising candidates. I'm not trying to appoint anyone really either I'm just trying to be prepared for where we might go or where voters might flock in response to Dems blowing what should have been the easiest election of all time

Nah, people are dumb. Everything gets blamed on the sitting President and their party, no one else. Obama got to run on "Remember how everything kicked ass in the 90s and then Bush fucked it all up?" and whoever runs against Trump can do the same thing with Obama. Every fuckup is on their shoulders.

Of course, they'll try to blame Obama, but that never works once you're in charge.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Hmm, who started that narrative?

Yeah, we can point fingers at Bernie but a similar one likely would have developed anyway. Obama was definitely a response by democratic voters that their boring robotic stuffy white guys suck and can't win. Just like Trump was a response to McCain and Romney losing and why so many didn't really care when Trump shit all over both of them and called them losers/failures/not war heroes etc. we don't feel it yet but the more angry people get about the stuff Trump and the GOP gets away with the more people will turn on democratic establishment unless they pull off some heroics to save their image and re-establish some trust that they have any clue what they are doing

 

[RustyNails]

Will she nominate a centre or centre-left SCOTUS judge?
Will she push for women's rights? Equal pay, access to abortion, etc?
Will she push for Climate Change policies?
Will she be a hawk or a dove?

And make Muslims feel like a targeted group as well. Ask yourself if its worth it. Should we ask any x,y or z minority group to take it on the chin because progressivism is at stake? OR lets find somebody who does all of that and is not a crazy person when it comes to Islam and terrorism. We had that somebody in Hillary and even Bernie. Tulsi is not that somebody.

 

[kirblar]

Yeah, we can point fingers at Bernie but a similar one likely would have developed anyway. Obama was definitely a response by democratic voters that their boring robotic stuffy white guys suck and can't win. Just like Trump was a response to McCain and Romney losing and why so many didn't really care when Trump shit all over both of them and called them losers/failures/not war heroes etc. we don't feel it yet but the more angry people get about the stuff Trump and the GOP gets away with the more people will turn on democratic establishment unless they pull off some heroics to save their image and re-establish some trust that they have any clue what they are doing

To the bolded: No. Not at all. Obama won because he was charismatic as fuck and people in '08 were very worried about Clinton in the election. (same worries as '16, but we didn't have any actual options this time out.)

People saw Obama coming a mile away- West Wing based their final season's presidential winner directly on Obama because they were pretty sure he was winning pretty soon. It was obvious what was there.

And make Muslims feel like a targeted group as well. Ask yourself if its worth it. Should we ask any x,y or z minority group to take it on the chin because progressivism is at stake? OR lets find somebody who does all of that and is not a crazy person when it comes to Islam and terrorism. We had that somebody in Hillary and even Bernie. Tulsi is not that somebody.

/|\ Excusing racism in the name of politics is exactly what the GOP just did. We cannot do that.

 

[IAmAnAgnostic]

And make Muslims feel like a targeted group as well. Ask yourself if its worth it. Should we ask any x,y or z minority group to take it on the chin because progressivism is at stake? OR lets find somebody who does all of that and is not a crazy person when it comes to Islam and terrorism. We had that somebody in Hillary and even Bernie. Tulsi is not that somebody.

Is there some evidence that Tulsi is likely to run?

 

[Ryuuroden]

This is not easy but I cannot vote for either because of my identity as Muslim American US citizen. We have seen 70% rise in hate crimes since Trump appeared on stage in 2015. We are scared of sending our mom anywhere on her own, especially in a plane since she wears the traditional hijab. This is the personal experience from having someone Islamophobic on national stage. Tulsi is not going to help here.

You are going to have to vote how black people vote, figure out who fucks you over the least. It sucks but think about how much more fucked minorities would be today had they just said fuck it, both candidates are racists and don't care about me, i just won't vote at all. You can make a good argument that not as much has been done as should have been done for African Americans but if they didn't vote at all no one would do anything at all for them period. And yes I think that is a disgusting truth about America.

 

[pigeon]

It's true but I just don't think that will be the narrative that people think about. It will likely be "establishment Dems rigged the election and gave us a bad candidate so we don't trust them anymore or anyone in their in crowd" and they'll probably vote accordingly

If the only way to control the Democratic Party is to hold your vote hostage that just makes it even more imperative for intersectional voters to say early and often that they will vote third party rather than vote for a candidate that discards solidarity.

 

[VendettaRed07]

To the bolded: No. Not at all. Obama won because he was charismatic as fuck and people in '08 were very worried about Clinton in the election. (same worries as '16, but we didn't have any actual options this time out.)

People saw Obama coming a mile away- West Wing based their final season's presidential winner directly on Obama because they were pretty sure he was winning pretty soon. It was obvious what was there.
.

I'm not trying to talk in absolutes here at all or anything because Obama was definitely something special; but I can imagine that had Al Gore won, or Kerry or w/e it may have been harder for him to ride the waves and win as dominantly as he did. People may not wanted to take a perceived risk as vote for him. Similarly like voters this time around viewed sanders as a risk and Hillary as the "safe" candidate because the obama coalition had proven it can win which she attached herself to

 

[kirblar]

Tulsi Gabbard as a nominee would spit in the face of core values endorsed by the party. This is why she will never be the nominee.

 

[IAmAnAgnostic]

Tulsi Gabbard as a nominee would spit in the face of core values endorsed by the party. This is why she will never be the nominee.

Why are people discussing this now? Is there some news I have missed?

 

[VendettaRed07]

If the only way to control the Democratic Party is to hold your vote hostage that just makes it even more imperative for intersectional voters to say early and often that they will vote third party rather than vote for a candidate that discards solidarity.

I don't believe that it will be that way forever but I can just imagine it playing into it this time around. In 08, the Iraq war vote was probably the deciding factor; this time going with the "establishment" maybe be the talking point/issue next time.. I think it's inevitable due to supposedly "anti-establishment" Trump actually winning.

Hopefully though in the future things can return to somewhat normal election issues and cycles because I hate all of this

 

[Cybit]

Welp, this is going to end poorly

http://www.theatlantic.com/liveblogs/2016/12/news-today/509687/12272/

German Chancellor Angela Merkel called for a burqa ban “wherever legally possible” Tuesday at the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party conference, marking an apparent shift in her stance ahead of her bid for reelection next year. “In communication between people, which is of course essential to our living together, we have to show our faces,” Merkel said at the annual conference in Essen, where she was reelected leader of the conservative party. “So the full veil should be forbidden wherever legally possible.”

 

[VendettaRed07]

Why are people discussing this now? Is there some news I have missed?

No I just threw the idea out there. But really just speculating what we might be in for I guess

 

[pigeon]

Welp, this is going to end poorly

http://www.theatlantic.com/liveblogs/2016/12/news-today/509687/12272/

Disgusting. There goes Germany as the bastion of freedom and tolerance, though as I type those words I realize I shouldn't be surprised really.

 

[metalslimer]

Wtf Merkel? Is this to sure up her reelection chances?

 

[Aaronology]

You are going to have to vote how black people vote, figure out who fucks you over the least. It sucks but think about how much more fucked minorities would be today had they just said fuck it, both candidates are racists and don't care about me, i just won't vote at all. You can make a good argument that not as much has been done as should have been done for African Americans but if they didn't vote at all no one would do anything at all for them period. And yes I think that is a disgusting truth about America.

I sincerely doubt modern African Americans would be enthusiastic about voting for a candidate who was as racist against blacks as Tulsi is Islamophobic. I understand the importance of pragmatic voting, but I feel it's perfectly understandable for a Muslim to be extremely wary of Gabbard.