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[dramatis]

Some of y'all mad about Sanders supporters being mad at the party need to ask how you'd feel if Sanders got the nomination, won PA/MI/WI but lost NV/VA, and the senate races adjusted accordingly. You guys would be furious with him and his supporters for unleashing Trump on us, right?

We wouldn't have spent five months helping the Republicans smear Sanders and spreading lies about him, and encouraging voters to go third party

 

[Roland_Gunner]

And I'm not sure you really understand how dismissive and petty you seem when you continually obsess over the party label like that. There's a large group of people dissatisfied with how the dem party has been behaving and it just comes off as petty when you dismiss input when it comes from outside the party -- they're trying to make the party better and you, along with too many other dems, are responding as if they're trying to sabotage the party. It plays right into the idea that dems care more about control and power than they care about actually fighting for progressive causes.

Dems may be more receptive from input from outside of the party if the left wasn't always trying to destroy the good so they can have some imaginary perfect. When the ACA was passed and 20 million people got insurance all we got was criticism for not getting single payer. When Dems voted to bail out the banks and keep the economy from imploding the left, including Sanders, was too busy griping about bankers not being in jail to appreciate the fact that millions of people kept their jobs. To have the same people turn around and call us petty doesn't really help either side.

 

[Toxi]

Some of y'all mad about Sanders supporters being mad at the party need to ask how you'd feel if Sanders got the nomination, won PA/MI/WI but lost NV/VA, and the senate races adjusted accordingly. You guys would be furious with him and his supporters for unleashing Trump on us, right?

I wouldn't because I didn't have a horse in the primaries.

I'm pissed off at these Sanders supporters because they're going nuclear over the fucking DNC chairman not being Sanders' pick and shitting up the conversation with now meaningless labels like "establishment". And they admit that their constant concern is for stupid reasons, yet keep doing it anyway.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

now Perez as chair. So much for olive branches.

Perez is the first Latino head of the DNC and the most liberal head of the DNC ever

How is this not appealing to Liberals?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

We wouldn't have spent five months helping the Republicans smear Sanders and spreading lies about him, and encouraging voters to go third party

Right, because there was no smearing of Sanders or his supporters during the primary, nor trying to discourage them from participating in politics.

 

[BoboBrazil]

Perez is the first Latino head of the DNC and the most liberal head of the DNC ever

How is this not appealing to Liberals?

Because these aren't liberals. They are Bernie supporters.

 

[davepoobond]

I wouldn't because I didn't have a horse in the primaries.

I'm pissed off at these Sanders supporters because they're going nuclear over the fucking DNC chairman not being Sanders' pick and shitting up the conversation with now meaningless labels like "establishment". And they admit that their constant concern is for stupid reasons, yet keep doing it anyway.

At some point It just sounds like they are happy with trump being in power for 8 years.

 

[The Technomancer]

Perez is the first Latino head of the DNC and the most liberal head of the DNC ever

How is this not appealing to Liberals?

This is what I'm saying on Twitter. The two most powerful people in the DNC are now a latino civil rights lawyer with an incredibly progressive record and Keith "first muslim congressman" Ellison. How did anyone in this scenario lose?

 

[JP_]

Perez is the first minority head of the DNC and the most liberal head of the DNC ever

How is this not appealing to Liberals?

I can't tell if you're joking or you seriously don't understand why this race wasn't simply about how left the candidates were.

It's even more of a slap in the face when you have someone that is similar, both in terms of qualifications and ideology, that is denied the chair seemingly because he was endorsed by Bernie/Warren. How you guys don't get that is honestly surprising to me.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Not sure if posted, but the father of the Navy SEAL who died in Yemen was interviewed. It's a great read.

 

[royalan]

Because these aren't liberals. They are Bernie supporters.

Exactly.

Bernie Sanders was given unprecedented concessions on the Democratic platform. Things that were never done for a losing candidate before were done for him.

Keith Ellison was made Deputy Chair.

I don't know on what planet these aren't considered olive branches.

If the far left wants actual leadership positions within the party, what they need to do is not expect olive branches from us corporate shills. What they need to do is demonstrate an ability to win.

 

[JDB]

Perez is the first Latino head of the DNC and the most liberal head of the DNC ever

How is this not appealing to Liberals?

They don't care about the actual ideals and policies, they care about Bernie.

 

[PBY]

They don't care about the actual ideals and policies, they care about Bernie.

You don't get it.

 

[Wilsongt]

This is what I'm saying on Twitter. The two most powerful people in the DNC are now a latino civil rights lawyer with an incredibly progressive record and Keith "first muslim congressman" Ellison. How did anyone in this scenario lose?

They are Not Bernies.
Granted, it appears the only people making a fuss are GAF, Twitter, and Trump.

Everyone else is just whatever.

 

[Toxi]

I can't tell if you're joking or you seriously don't understand why this race wasn't simply about how left the candidates were.

It's even more of a slap in the face when you have someone that is similar, both in terms of qualifications and ideology, that is denied the chair seemingly because he was endorsed by Bernie/Warren. How you guys don't get that is honestly surprising to me.

You're admitting the only reason you care about Ellison losing is because he was endorsed by Sanders (and no, he wasn't "denied" the seat; what, was it his birthright to be DNC Chairman?). Guess what, not everyone endorsed by Sanders is going to win.

Accept the loss like Ellison did.

 

[Wilsongt]

I'm extremely close to giving up on following politics all together. I'll keep voting and keep yaas queening, but between the GOP and Democratic infighing it's so damn annoying.

 

[tbm24]

I can't tell if you're joking or you seriously don't understand why this race wasn't simply about how left the candidates were.

It's even more of a slap in the face when you have someone that is similar, both in terms of qualifications and ideology, that is denied the chair seemingly because he was endorsed by Bernie/Warren. How you guys don't get that is honestly surprising to me.

I don't understand how you're okay with the idea of Ellison being owed this position. No matter what a segment of democratic leaning voters may have wanted, he wasn't owed a thing. Him and Perez put up their arguments, the vote went one way, they are both now in a position to influence and lead the party races in the coming election. What has changed in the overall goal aside being able to high five each other in tweets?

 

[Ogodei]

All of these democrat wins in special elections are making me wonder--since most of these wins are much better than win Clinton was on the ticket:

A) Was Clinton a major drag on the ticket herself?

Or

B) Was Trump on the ticket just a major boon for the racist non-voters finally coming to the ballot box?

Answer is B. Remember that Clinton outperformed liberal darlings like Zephyr Teachout or Russ Feingold. One of the only swing races where the down-ticket outperformed Clinton was the McCrory-Cooper race in North Carolina, and the reasons there are pretty obvious (C-suite types who vote R but wanted HB2 to stop fucking their businesses).

 

[Toxi]

I don't understand how you're okay with the idea of Ellison being owed this position. No matter what a segment of democratic leaning voters may have wanted, he wasn't owed a thing. Him and Perez put up their arguments, the vote went one way, they are both now in a position to influence and lead the party races in the coming election. What has changed in the overall goal aside being able to high five each other in tweets?

Goddamn nothing.

 

[sc0la]

Perez is the first Latino head of the DNC and the most liberal head of the DNC ever

How is this not appealing to Liberals?

Because next to a "progressive black Muslim", Perez looks an awful lot like another one of the "old white men"

 

[RustyNails]

Al Fajr Mosque in Indianapolis

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

People don't vote when they're satisfied, people vote when they're angry.

 

[JP_]

You're admitting the only reason you care about Ellison losing is because he was endorsed by Sanders (and no, he wasn't "denied" the seat; what, was it his birthright to be DNC Chairman?). Guess what, not everyone endorsed by Sanders is going to win.

Accept the loss like Ellison did.

No, I'm explaining the embarrassing drama I predicted and wanted to avoid.

It's the pragmatic thing to do because Ellison can get the job done and picking someone else will bring embarrassing drama that'll only continue to distract from 2018 and beyond. Ellison as chair isn't even "letting the Sander's wing take control" anyway, considering Pelosi and Schumer.

He wasn't owed it, he was the most pragmatic option.

You're not avoiding the drama, you're adding to it.

You're confused.

 

[Toxi]

No, I'm explaining the embarrassing drama I predicted and wanted to avoid.

You're not avoiding the drama, you're adding to it.

 

[JP_]

.

 

[tbm24]

Because next to a "progressive black Muslim", Perez looks an awful lot like another one of the "old white men"

I would hope people wouldn't look at Perez and deny him of his background.

 

[sc0la]

I would hope people wouldn't look at Perez and deny him of his background.

Some will, even while playing up Kieths. I don't think it's malicious, just laziness with a strong helping of confirmation bias. Same thing with Perez being a "neoliberal corporatist" or whateverdespite evidence to the contrary.

 

[Emerson]

Answer is B. Remember that Clinton outperformed liberal darlings like Zephyr Teachout or Russ Feingold. One of the only swing races where the down-ticket outperformed Clinton was the McCrory-Cooper race in North Carolina, and the reasons there are pretty obvious (C-suite types who vote R but wanted HB2 to stop fucking their businesses).

No. Clinton herself (or her image) was part of the problem.

It's unfair, absolutely. But her image was irreparably damaged by conservative propaganda in the eyes of a significant number of people. There are many people who viewed this as a "two evils" election.

That is insane, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that people still had that perception after years of her being dragged through the mud. This is beyond question. The time to question this was before the election, but those saying she was the right choice have been demonstrably proven wrong. Trump barely edged past her. Another Democrat likely would have easily won.

 

[thehypocrite]

Here's the reality. People are desperate because life on average in the US is bleak. People can't afford homes, young people can't afford children, healthcare plans, have a decent retirement plan, are stuck with jobs that are completely demoralizing and tedious like the retail industry and Walmart. People are swimming in student debt and struggling to pay it off. Racial tensions, police brutality and our criminal justice system seemingly continue to get more fucked up by the year.

As far as I can tell, the far left is at least proposing ideas that, while difficult, plan to address these problems. They are at this point, proposing legislation that your average American, if implemented, would actually feel the effects of. That's what democrats need to start doing.

Unless people have better ideas of where to go from here I really don't know what to say. Because while some ideas out of the far left are to out there I'd say most people on here even the detractors agree with the vast majority of it. I also don't want to hear "lol socialists will destroy the party can't have them". Because as far as I can tell the party has been destroyed and that happened because we weren't promising the type of transformational change people desperately are looking for. We just elected a reality show fascist whose literally actually in the pocket of Russia, so I don't buy the whole "can't run with far left ideas because red scare murica"

Despite the fact that the GOP has the most power they have ever had, they are struggling to move forward with an agenda, because people are active. They are flooding their reps email boxes and their phones are ringing off the hook. There are constant massive, insane sized protests and marches. Republicans are getting roasted at town halls and they are practically afraid to go outside at this point.

We can channel this energy and use this anger in a positive manner to get stuff done. Bernie was wrong about a lot of things and that's why I didn't vote for him. But he was right about saying the party needs to do what it can and focus on mobilizing voters like we are currently seeing happen.

Good post.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Polls are suggesting that Macron is gonna pull this one off in France.

Neoliberal centrism is what voters are craving right now.

 

[tuxfool]

Polls are suggesting that Macron is gonna pull this one off in France.

Neoliberal centrism is what voters are craving right now.

What young energised people are craving.

It could also just be just that he is good looking. People voted for Sarkozy because he was a dapper fellow back then.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Polls are suggesting that Macron is gonna pull this one off in France.

Neoliberal centrism is what voters are craving right now.

I think it's more "not associated with political party" than anything

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Polls are suggesting that Macron is gonna pull this one off in France.

Neoliberal centrism is what voters are craving right now.

That's due to better coordination and a lucky scandal. With Hamon and Melenchon both running, neither will make it further, but Bayrou has had the decency to drop out and so Macron's electoral niche is by contrast uncontested. Even then, Fillon would have won without Penelopegate, and would probably beat Macron in a straught contest, but Le Pen is too consolidated to allow for that. Macron is very much a case of right place, right time.

A better test of neoliberal centrism in France will be the legislative elections. The French Presidency is an odd position. When it controls the legislature it's the most centralised political position in the Western world. During cohabitation, it's near powerless (see: Mitterand). Given En Marche! are going to get trounced by Les Republicains, Macron is almost definitely going to be a pretty puppet.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

It may also be that all of the candidates other than Macron are ideologues who seem genuinely stupid and or crooked.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Because these aren't liberals. They are Bernie supporters.

They don't care about the actual ideals and policies, they care about Bernie.

I really hate this dismissive rhetoric. You are diminishing the opinions and trying to snuff out the enthusiasm of people who are on your side.

I see this day after day here. It's so depressing. I really wish people here could better understand why young people are enamored with far-left ideals without considering themselves far-left. When you say they are petty or unappeasable and aren't interested in policy, you are ridiculing people who - until recently - didn't see any difference between you and them.

Do people here even talk to supposed far-left voters? Because I think a lot of the people you're writing off are just "voters under 25." They are deeply distrustful of establishments and institutions because they have been screwed or strung along by them their entire lives. They have no job security, their wages are low, their cost of living is high, and things their parents were doing at their age - like buying houses and having children - are completely off the table. Even people with college degrees and no debt - like me - have to work six days a week to pay their bills. They are furious they have paid into systems and programs their whole lives - including programs their parents were able to benefit from - only to see a fraction of the results.

These voters are energized and restless because they kept their heads down and plodded along under Obama because they believed everything would eventually be okay. Progress was progress, even if it was slow and measured. They liked Obama and he was making things better, and whoever succeeded him would carry us even further. But overnight, they watched their entire worldview get demolished under the weight of Donald Trump. It makes everything they thought was safe and guaranteed feel fragile and vulnerable. They are not willing to wait for 2018 or 2020 to try to defend themselves or take back territory. They trying to do it every single day. Their fight is right now. They will stop at nothing to feel like they have their voice back.

This is an energy you should be welcoming and grooming into good Democrats and regular voters, not closing the door to for not buying into another institution they're wary of. You have to realize that lots of these voters have never experienced anything as dramatic or traumatic as Donald Trump. This is their 9/11. This is their life-changing catastrophe that forever changes how they see the world. Everything they believed before the election is now threatened or collapsing in front of their eyes. They've never seen anything like this before - or at least never felt its effects. The reason they are so vicious is because they are terrified and angry in ways they have never been. These people are going to dictate the culture of a generation. These people are an asset to you. Connect with them. They desperately want to be connected with.

I always feel I need to make it clear I am not a Berniecrat and I voted for HRC. I still keep her keychain in my car. But is is plainly obvious to me as a young voter than people you brand as far-left and insatiable anarchists are people looking for somebody and something to rally behind. They want it to be somebody they took part in choosing. They want to feel like they're contributing directly to the machine that is going to determine how the remainder of their lives may go. Help them. You will win more elections.

I just can't stand seeing people who all believe the same things demonizing each other over what is ultimately just a difference in attitude, not politics. I give Gray Wolves another version of this same speech. There is so much opportunity here.

 

[Blader]

Bernie understands that our system can't support more than two parties. Instead of trying to start a third party that replaces the Democrats (though there is the Vermont Progressive Party) he's trying to insert himself into the Democratic Party and have his people take it over to reshape it into a social democratic party. This is why he's having his people run for low level DNC stuff and why he pushed Ellison.

This is what the Watergate Babies did when they pushed out the New Deal-ers in the 70's and 80's. I bet if we had internet forums in 1976 or whatever we could read posts about how these damn McGovernites need to get out of our party and stop making power plays.

McGovern lost in a blowout, followed by a tight win by soon-to-be-massively-unpopular Jimmy Carter, followed by three more blowouts in presidential elections. All the while, Reagan did better than any other president in modern history in tamping down his party's congressional losses throughout the 80s. Your argument is tantamount to, "Don't listen to me."

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It may also be that all of the candidates other than Macron are ideologues who seem genuinely stupid and or crooked.

I mean, reductive, but close to true.

If only the right could be so incompetent everywhere... the UK got screwed, Farage is much better at this game than either Trump or Le Pen.

 

[Dominican Power]

I can longer differentiate between Bernie supporters or Trump supporters. They have a cult of personality type of following.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I can longer differentiate between Bernie supporters or Trump supporters. They have a cult of personality type of following.

"Both sides are the same!"

"What's the difference?!"

 

[jack_package_200]

Saw this on facebook...

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

McGovern lost in a blowout, followed by a tight win by soon-to-be-massively-unpopular Jimmy Carter, followed by three more blowouts in presidential elections. All the while, Reagan did better than any other president in modern history in tamping down his party's congressional losses throughout the 80s. Your argument is tantamount to, "Don't listen to me."

And in the aftermath of it these people managed to take over the entire party and now have reshaped it ideologically and control it. Their people have been the presidential nominees in both the winning years and losing years after 1984, which was the last dying breath of the old party.

It's not that the new insurgent group trying to take power is uninterested in winning elections or losing to Trump, it's that they want their people to be winning elections and shaping the ideology of the party. We'll see how successful they are, but "stick with the current power holders because they can win elections" is a much weaker argument than it was a few months ago.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Saw this on facebook...

...

Good lord.

 

[LostMyNarbles]

I can longer differentiate between Bernie supporters or Trump supporters. They have a cult of personality type of following.

This has been evident since last year when Bernie supporters either flat out refused to support Clinton or the "Bernie or Busters" who voted Trump instead and then they all talked shit about Sanders for supporting Clinton and Campaigning for her. Now that she lost they are all back on board, but they still shit on him when it is convenient to themselves like all the shitty response his Perez tweet brought.

It has been mentioned before on PoliGAF but these people aren't looking to work with anybody and they aren't rational thinking people that can be reasoned with or appeased.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Saw this on facebook...

lol

This is like everything that is wrong with the "left" in one picture

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This has been evident since last year when Bernie supporters either flat out refused to support Clinton or the "Bernie or Busters" who voted Trump instead and then they all talked shit about Sanders for supporting Clinton and Campaigning for her. Now that she lost they are all back on board, but they still shit on him when it is convenient to themselves like all the shitty response his Perez tweet brought.

It has been mentioned before on PoliGAF but these people aren't looking to work with anybody and they aren't rational thinking people that can be reasoned with or appeased.

More Sanders primary voters voted Clinton in the presidential than Clinton primary voters voted Obama in the presidential. You need to stop spreading fake news, it's pretty disgusting. I can't tell the difference between you rabid Clintonites and Trump supporters any more, it's all just lies and racism.

 

[GutsOfThor]

Saw this on facebook...

We're going to lose next year and in 2020 aren't we?

 

[dramatis]

Right, because there was no smearing of Sanders or his supporters during the primary, nor trying to discourage them from participating in politics.

If telling Sanders supporters to stop being racist or sexist is considered smearing, that I guess there's no level of hurt feelings that can't be stooped down to

I would also like to ask what smears Sanders suffered that are as garbage as nothingburger emails and the perpetual delegitimizing of a historic victory. Oh wait, those are not smears, those are real shit, whereas being told "racist/sexist actions are obnoxious" is smearing.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Good post.

Eh, I think that completely misses the mark in terms of analyzing the causal factors behind those trends. Clinton handily won the popular vote, so why are we surprised that the majority of the country hates Trump? How else would you extrapolate out the results to the non-voting population?

Furthermore, even if the party got annihilated down-ballot, it wasn't Bernie type leftists who performed best, it was Kander type moderates. How does that translate into a conclusion that socialist ideas/candidates are more popular than centrism? If the demand was there we would see more Bernie's in Congress, but we don't. The best Seattle could do was elect a single socialist to the City Council over 100 years. And we think that kind of ''success" is somehow going to translate to district or state wide contests in states like Missouri or Ohio?

I mean seriously, voters don't have to believe in universal healthcare to be mad about Trump trying to repeal Obamacare. You don't have to believe in free college tuition to think Devos was a terrible pick. We should not mistake anger over Trump's raw incompetence as anything more than that; the democratic wave in 2006 happened because people were anti-war, not pro-democrat.

I'll believe the country is ready for far-left ideas when it starts electing representatives who campaign on them. The simple fact is that there has never been a leftist version of the Tea Party that demonstrates sustained demand for radical policies through repeated large-scale congressional victories.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

More Sanders primary voters voted Clinton in the presidential than Clinton primary voters voted Obama in the presidential. You need to stop spreading fake news, it's pretty disgusting. I can't tell the difference between you rabid Clintonites and Trump supporters any more, it's all just lies and racism.

While there are some people who can't seem to let Clinton go despite her terribleness as a candidate, the ideologues are pretty easy to spot. They are the people who think following in the footsteps of the Tea Party is a good thing and are more concerned with protesting a Manchin townhall than a Trump appearance. You know it's true, so stop turning a blind eye.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

"Both sides are the same!"

"What's the difference?!"

The real horseshoe theory

Spoiler

this is a joke about why horseshoe theory is bad, not that liberalism and fascism are the same