DeepEnigma
Gold Member
My gut is telling me that developers will have the option through the Gen to use either or, just like when the PS2 first hit they started off on CD-ROM then developers moved over to DVD as the games became bigger.
Rumour: PS5 Devkits have released (UPDATE 25th April : 7nm chips moving to mass production)
- Thread starter bitbydeath
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My gut is telling me that developers will have the option through the Gen to use either or, just like when the PS2 first hit they started off on CD-ROM then developers moved over to DVD as the games became bigger.
LordOfChaos
Member
Maybe it was designed for it but they confirmed the capacity they could get later? Idk. Stewart Gilray says:
The demo of Killzone: Shadow Fall shown during PlayStation 4's announcement only used 4GB of memory – not the full 8GB GDDR5 RAM available to developers in the final hardware, Guerrilla has revealed. According to the studio, 3072MB (3GB) of PS4's 8GB were dedicated to video resources powering the demo, with 1,536MB used for system resources. A further 128MB were shared between the twf the 3GB reserved for video memory, 1,321 MB were used by non-streaming textures. According to Guerrilla, the demo featured 8200 physics objects, 500 particle systems and real-time reflections - which include "a lot of Guerrilla secret sauce".
Guerrilla's decision to stick with 4GB suggest that the developer may not have been aware of Sony's decision to include 8GB in final retail hardware – something Just Add Water CEO Stewart Gilray told VideoGamer.com had been kept secret from third-party developers until the console's announcement. "We were told [PS4] was 4GB originally," Gilray told us, "and we first knew it had 8GBs when Mark said at the event's stage, 'And it has 8GB of memory.' We'd had kits at that point for a good while."
http://killzone.wikia.com/wiki/Killzone:_Shadow_Fall
Sony pulling that kind of specifications coup again would be something.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Probably as simple as a indi dev not doing a launch game not needing the latest info. The early dev kits and docs probably did have a 4GB target? Also note in that whole section it misunderstands the RAM situation saying GG may not of known about 8GB because they only used 4GB. 1, it used 4.7GB and 2, it turned out PS4 only has access to 5GB and therefore was already nearly maxing out the available RAM to devs.
John Peter
Banned
PS5 will be an amazing monster!
16GB GDDR6
4GB GDDR5(to operate the OS)
Ryzen 8-Core 3.2Ghz
AMD Navi 7nm with the same RX VEGA 64 performance.
16GB GDDR6
4GB GDDR5(to operate the OS)
Ryzen 8-Core 3.2Ghz
AMD Navi 7nm with the same RX VEGA 64 performance.
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GermanZepp
Member
Please explain onQ123. For Dreams and the tomorrow children tech?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. What do you mean sacrificial lamb for Cerny? You saying Cerny didn't put certain tech in the PS4, but used their research for the PS5?
I mean Cerny told them & other devs to explore compute rendering which is something they would have to do a lot of research & go through a lot of trial & error & find out what's needed for better rendering techniques .
Like if they did something in software that looked good or showed promise that could be a game changer that information could be used when creating new hardware to accelerate the process.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That makes sense. But why does that make them sacrifical lamb? That saying means that the lamb always dies in the end. How did that research help kill Media Molecule and Q-Games?
The Mad Draklor
Member
The voxel cone tracing in The Tomorrow Children was rather impressive. Too bad that the game itself wasn't that great.
They basically spent this whole generation working on Dreams
DemonCleaner
Member
well i didn't catch that news, at the time of posting. this is a shitshow for AMD as they have to cut volumes on ryzen 3000. PS5 must have been planed on TSMCs process years ago, so i don't think that will have an influence on the release date. 7nm priority for AMD will be: EPIC->PS5-> Zen2->Navi
on that second part: my words! and just another reason to get it out as soon as possible as there wont be any meaningful jump in tech for quite a while now. so Microsoft won't be able to one up them spec wise in a significant manner.
yeah i don't see that they would delay 1,5 years just for the sake of 8gigs of additional RAM.
Alexander DeLarge
Member
I hope for the exact opposite. I'm sick of developers not compressing their damn games anymore. I don't need every line of audio in multiple languages in uncompressed FLAC format. There's no reason the average game should be even 20GB these days.
DemonCleaner
Member
and as anybody locks down their prediction, i might as well repeat what i said over the last year or so:
PS5 spec prediciton:
GPU: 7nm navi with at least 12TF based on boost clocks
CPU: 7nm Ryzen 3000 (Zen 2) 8cores/16threads boost clocked to at least at 3,2 Ghz probably higher
RAM: 16GB of GDDR6 (slim chance that being HBM3)
Bonus Prediction: GPU and CPU will be DIFFERENT dies on the same substrate connected via infinity fabric, as that is more economical than a big APU
PS5 spec prediciton:
GPU: 7nm navi with at least 12TF based on boost clocks
CPU: 7nm Ryzen 3000 (Zen 2) 8cores/16threads boost clocked to at least at 3,2 Ghz probably higher
RAM: 16GB of GDDR6 (slim chance that being HBM3)
Bonus Prediction: GPU and CPU will be DIFFERENT dies on the same substrate connected via infinity fabric, as that is more economical than a big APU
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Inline with my prediction. The only thing I would disagree with is boost clocks. Consoles will be fixed speed I think.
Toe-Knee
Member
They did tearaway unfolded too. Not much but it's something
Insane Metal
Member
It makes absolutely no sense using GDDR5 exclusively to operate an OS. Better to use DDR4 or even DDR3 if you wanna go cheaper.
Wasn't that with a second team with help from another studio?
Toe-Knee
Member
It may have been a second team but I think it was excitedly on house and needed a fair bit of work due to not having the vita featureset.
Imtjnotu
Member
Or LPDDR4 for the os
Dontero
Banned
That is not realistic.
1. They will not split ram from vram. It is cost prohibitive. Xbox did it because they were using weak gpu that didn't need GDDR5.
2. Even at 7nm both of those would generate a lot of heat together.
Much more realistic:
CPU : Ryzen 8 Core @ 2,5Ghz
GPU : Vega 56+ like gpu.
RAM: 16GB HMB2
ROM: 256GB "flowing" SSD + 1TB HDD
299$ anything above that and you get 399$
It is clear that the biggest improvement they can make will be CPU and HDD. HDD are fucking slow as fuck and most of PC gamers already moved to SSD for their primary gaming hard drive.
"flowing" in context of SSD means that you won't be able to install directly game to SSD. IT will be system managed drive where PS5 OS will store most used files that are used over time. AMD already has that tech in their Ryzen CPUs and you can use it on PC. For example if you run some game 2-3 times it will move most used files from those games to SSD.
LordOfChaos
Member
Dontero
Banned
Neither of those are Read Only Memory
/nit picked
Ah you are right. But from what i read they are not exactly Read Only Memory anymore so whole definition is fucked which is why i saw a lot of people using it as HDD/SSD general descriptor. What i meant by using ROM was non volatile memory.
John Peter
Banned
This ps5 is a turtle. I think it looks more like a slug trying to outrun a fox. But unfortunately you are right. Probably the new generation will be completely devastated by 4k resolution. We will not see significant leap in graphics. 4k consumes a lot of features and even though the PS5 does 4K checkerboard I do not believe there will be a lot of performance to improve the graphics.
Don't you think the next Playstation could bring the same VEGA 64 performance?
2016 PS4 PRO = 4.2Tflops/GTX 1050Ti
2017 Xbox One X = RX580/GTX 1060
Hypotetical 2018 Console = VEGA 56/GTX 1070 performance
Hypotetical 2019 PS5 = VEGA 64/GTX 1080 performance
What do you think?? Even if the PS5 come out with 10Tflops I would say that NAVI performance per Tflops is faster than VEGA. Because I can't believe that SONY will bring us a turtle console with the same performance of a VEGA 56 10.5Tflops that is equivalent to a GTX 1070. This is ridiculous...
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Imtjnotu
Member
Why would they go with Vega with all the rumors of Navi being used for ps5???
John Peter
Banned
He didn't say that PS5 will use VEGA 56. He said that PS5 will use a GPU that reach a VEGA 56 performance.
Lort
Banned
The reason xbox did it was so they could get high bandwidth AND 8 gig of ram .. to save money and to support xbox 360 back compat. If you took the esram of the cpu/cpu youd have the same size GPU as the ps4.
In short the xbox one split the mem to save money.
Sidenote: Will AV1 video hardware be ready when PS5 release if it's really coming in 2019? Also will that allow 8K Blu-ray disc at just as cheap prices as the 4K Blu-rays we have now?
Kinda make since that Sony skipped 4K Blu-rays when 8K is so close now & 4K streaming with AV1 is supposed to be pretty good.
Kinda make since that Sony skipped 4K Blu-rays when 8K is so close now & 4K streaming with AV1 is supposed to be pretty good.
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
Imtjnotu
Member
Ignore my blind ass
John Peter
Banned
Dontero
Banned
Imho i think we should better discus what kind of custom silicon they will bake into chip. Unlike before both MS and Sony now have the time to prepare for launch and sit with AMD to design something new for developers.
I think MS due to DXR will want some raytracing stuff. Sony is unknown but i think they will bet on fixed function dedicated hardware for physics calculations.
Even more so i think AMD wants it. Because if they will make some custom silicon for them it will mean they will get their own "gameworks" to fuck nvidia in ass and since consoles dictate developement unlike psyhX and gameworks it will be supported by almost everybody.
If by any chance it will be physic custom silicon then nvidia is fucked for good 5-7 years if not more.
I think MS due to DXR will want some raytracing stuff. Sony is unknown but i think they will bet on fixed function dedicated hardware for physics calculations.
Even more so i think AMD wants it. Because if they will make some custom silicon for them it will mean they will get their own "gameworks" to fuck nvidia in ass and since consoles dictate developement unlike psyhX and gameworks it will be supported by almost everybody.
If by any chance it will be physic custom silicon then nvidia is fucked for good 5-7 years if not more.
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John Peter
Banned
The Next Gen AMD GPUs will probably increase some Ray Tracing technologies... But forget about making games using this technologies so soon. Ray Tracing consumes a lot of resources from hardware. This is just a maketing stuff... We need a true generational leap in terms of performance and graphics and I just can see it happening with some VEGA 64/ GTX 1080 raw power inside the box. Nothing less than this...
SonGoku
Member
24GB vs 16GB is a game changer, more ram is what will make new experiences possible and sustain rich dynamic worlds, that along with GI lighting is what will set next gen apart and not just PS4.5.
I don't think neither SONY nor MS will shoot themselves in the foot by realeasing half baked systems, the purpose of the pro/x is to give this gen legs while they wait for real next gen jump
John Peter
Banned
EXACLY!
But I still thinking that PS5 will run 4K Checkerboard. Because if this console come out with the same GTX 1080 performance it will never be able to deliver a big generational jump in termos of graphics running native 4k. Except if this console reach the GTX 1080Ti performance
The true native 4K console will be the Xbox Scarlet that will come out after PS5. Maybe PS5 PRO and Xbox Scarlet X will be able to run Native 4k at 60fps.
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SonGoku
Member
Yeah i too think we'll see lots of checkerboarded titles to get the most out of the GPU even if we got the equivalent of GTX 1080 Ti performanceEXACLY!
But I still thinking that PS5 will run 4K Checkerboard. Because if this console come out with the same GTX 1080 performance it will never be able to deliver a big generational jump in termos of graphics running native 4k. Except if this console reach the GTX 1080Ti performance
The true native 4K console will be the Xbox Scarlet that will come out after PS5. Maybe PS5 PRO and Xbox Scarlet X will be able to run Native 4k at 60fps.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yeah i too think we'll see lots of checkerboarded titles to get the most out of the GPU even if we got the equivalent of GTX 1080 Ti performance
I would prefer this to be quite honest.
Tarkus98
Member
Do you really think that Microsoft will release their next console after Sony? I think they will both release around the same general timeframeEXACLY!
But I still thinking that PS5 will run 4K Checkerboard. Because if this console come out with the same GTX 1080 performance it will never be able to deliver a big generational jump in termos of graphics running native 4k. Except if this console reach the GTX 1080Ti performance
The true native 4K console will be the Xbox Scarlet that will come out after PS5. Maybe PS5 PRO and Xbox Scarlet X will be able to run Native 4k at 60fps.
John Peter
Banned
late 2019?
Tarkus98
Member
I’m in the 2020 camp myself. Both companies will have access to 7nm without worries of shortages or yields. Plus if the are customizing the graphics and/or CPU chips it gives them more time (although I would think the designs should be more or less nailed down at this stage).
I really don’t know though but I feel 2019 is rushing things unnecessarily. Just my opinion.
Dontero
Banned
I think traditional model for next generation consoles is going away.
PS and Xbox will be just Api much like Android version and game makers will be able to target what they want.
PS4/XboxOne will be forward compatibile with most of games but there will be some that will not be running on PS4/XboxOne. PS5/XboxTwo will be fully backward compatible.
IMHO they will release "PRO" version from get go which will cost naturally more.
Consoles on other hand will now be released every 2-3 years with updated harware
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John Peter
Banned
I don't know man! With all these rumors and games that we don't know when will come out like Death Stranding, Ghost of Tsushima and The Last of Us 2. These games are being delayed for no reason... Ghost of Tsushima graphics looks one step ahead from everything we've seen. Do you believe that a simple PS4 could handle that visuaIs? I don't really know if SONY will wait until 2020. But I particularly believe that 2020 could be the best releasing date... I agree with you but... I think SONY will show something late 2019.
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Ar¢tos
Member
Why would anyone want 8k blurays? UHD disc size hasn't increased, you would have 8k movies compressed to fit the same 100gb of 4k movies. Even if they add another layer I don't see the extra 60gb being enough for the pixel increase between 4k and 8k. If they add another layer then the price will obviously increase, but practically nobody has a 8k TV anyway. You would need a HVD disk, instead of bluray, for proper quality 8k movies but HVD seems to be vaporware now.
DemonCleaner
Member
this might come true for gaming, but they will surely have a low clock - low power state for "idling". on the gaming side: i thought turbo states with async clock speeds on different cores would have been a great idea for this gen, as the CPU load is typically unevenly divided between cores with 2 threads doing the most work. if one downclocks the less used worker threads in this instance, that would leave more power budget for the GPU. seeing engines in modern games (like BFV most recently) deviding the load pretty evenly, the need for that might have gone away the time next gen consoles are launching. on the other Hand a feature like that could still help lower end developers.
I Love Rock 'n' Roll
Member
EXACLY!
But I still thinking that PS5 will run 4K Checkerboard. Because if this console come out with the same GTX 1080 performance it will never be able to deliver a big generational jump in termos of graphics running native 4k. Except if this console reach the GTX 1080Ti performance
The true native 4K console will be the Xbox Scarlet that will come out after PS5. Maybe PS5 PRO and Xbox Scarlet X will be able to run Native 4k at 60fps.
So you mean next gen, with the same 3d engines, will run worse than XBOX ONE X ?
Because 4k 60FPS HDR is already a thing. Meanwhile, not every games do that, it's norhing unusual on Microsoft console, and while the Pro is not close, the checkboard solution is a great trick. If next gen can't match the X, there is no need of a next gen. There is no way i jump from 4k60 FPS to 4K30 FPS and pay more than 450€ for what is a downgrade.
When is Unreal coming with a new engine? Do we know anything about it?
DemonCleaner
Member
first of all, you got me wrong there: i didn't rule out the ps4 using 24gb of ram (my list is pretty much the minimal spec what would make sense for a NG System). i said i don't think sony would delay a console just for providing a bigger amount of it. if they decide to go with 24GB they will eat up the initial extra cost and won't delay launch for that. if sony goes with just 16GB i think it would be pretty much a given that microsoft would go with 24GB (if they launched at least 6 months later… what they probably will because of X1X and 7nm productions constraints at TSMC)
second i don't think that what you wrote about the implications of 24gig for next gen is necessarily true. i am not very well-bred on that, so take that with a grain of salt: there are very little aspects in a modern game engine where you need sheer RAM amount. a 4K frame buffer nowadays makes just a fraction of what can be fitted in 16gigs of ram. 4K or 8K textures aren't really needed to generate convincing looking materials. the layers that would make materials look more realistic (for this they most of all had to look less blurry as in late this gen games like cyberpunk [material quality being the main reason i cant understand people are calling this next gen]) are more shading than memory intensive. for the richer worlds stuff: simulation doesn't need sheer RAM amount but huge amounts of bandwith. for bandwith you can simply widen your mermory bus. im pretty sure consoles will got with a 384bit (and not 256bit) bus in that regard.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I don't know...All the rumours and insiders are pretty clear and unanimous in that Scarlet (or Scarlett...someone should confirm!) is 2020 but with PS5 no one is prepared to rule out 2019 but 2/3rds of forum users want/prefer 2020. The close Sony/AMD/Navi story suggested the design work for the PS5 APU was already done (the source talking in past tense) while Raja Koduri was still at/just left AMD/RTG. He left ~October 2017.
Let's say the design/tape out was done by the end of 2017 that would be 2 years before the end of 2019 and Mark Cerny has previously said about PS4 that from the lock down/design of the APU to release is ~2 years...
I think Microsoft just might go a year later if that not only gets them a small bump in paper specs but also 2nd-gen HW RT? That might be worth it for them if PS5 doesn't have it or a poor pseudo version.
John Peter
Banned
So you mean next gen, with the same 3d engines, will run worse than XBOX ONE X ?
Because 4k 60FPS HDR is already a thing. Meanwhile, not every games do that, it's norhing unusual on Microsoft console, and while the Pro is not close, the checkboard solution is a great trick. If next gen can't match the X, there is no need of a next gen. There is no way i jump from 4k60 FPS to 4K30 FPS and pay more than 450€ for what is a downgrade.
When is Unreal coming with a new engine? Do we know anything about it?
I understand you... But you need to know that Xbox One X runs 70% of games at Dynamic 4k. 30% at Native 4k(specially Xbox 360 games). The majority of games runs at 30fps. Oh! But Wolfenstein 2, Halo 5 and DOOM 2016 runs at 60fps! Ok... But they use Dynamic resolution as I said. Well, I remember Forza 7 running native 4k all the time at 60fps and Forza Horizon 3 at native 4k 30fps. That's ok... But if the next gen console reach Dynamic 4k 30fps and just a few at 4k 60fps it will not be a kind of downgrade. Because these next gen consoles will be running at least the same Xbox One X resolutions! But with a lot of increases in terms of graphics.
Be honest!!! When you look at the same scene of a game on a native 4k monitor and another dynamic 4k monitor, even at 3200x1800p. Can you see any difference? Especially if the monitor at 1800p do upscaling to 4k. Could you really see any diference?
But despite everything I said. I am not speaking things for myself. But I'm reflecting on the possible specs of the new consoles. If the PS5 comes with the same GTX 1070 / VEGA 56 performance it will be very difficult to believe that it deliver native 4K with substably better graphics than the current generation. I would only believe if this console included dynamic 4k. Or do you think a console with GTX 1070 performance does native 4k 60fps and a big jump in graphics equivalent to what we saw from PS3 to PS4? I would not believe it if it were not through Checkerboard ... Or we'll have to wait until the end of 2020/2021 to get something on the level of a super turbo charged GTX 1080Ti.
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