Ubisoft on PSSR: "We're now confident that the image quality with PSSR will always be better than with TAA".

octos

Member
Considering it's the first iteration of PSSR, it's already pretty awesome, and we know that another version is coming soon.
Overall DLSS is better, however PSSR does one thing better than every other upscaler: ghosting. There is almost no ghosting at all whereas other upscalers really suffer from it, to the point that I often disable them altogether.
 

SKYF@ll

Member
Without Sony, FSR4 would have been released in 2026, and without AMD, the integration of FSR4 into PSSR would have been delayed until 2027.
Collaboration is necessary to compete with nVidia.

By the way, the increased cost of PSSR (2 ms) compared to TAA (1.6 ms) is a concern.
 

Bojji

Member
Everyone taking a dump on poor Bojji Bojji because the MVP is MIA

I love how he is treated like public enemy number one for simply expressing his opinion.

Total Cerny victory.


Ulpyny0.jpeg

Hahaha. Nice job.
 

SKYF@ll

Member
TAAU is a bit pixelated in the hair but looks tons better than your usual run of the mill fsr2 crap.
PSSR will look even better! In my experience, PSSR when done right, like in stellar blade, is essentially DLSS quality,
FSR 3 also looks good when upscaling 1440p to 4K.
Consoles (PS5, XSX) upscaling 720p to 4K is the root of all evil.

The PSSR image quality of games like Stellar Blade, FF7 Rebirth, Fortnite, The First Descendant, Space Marine 2, and Sony 1st is amazing.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read that as a future patch being an incremental update rather than introducing PSSR. In which case, we'll never know just how good/bad their iteration would have been.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
Without Sony, FSR4 would have been released in 2026, and without AMD, the integration of FSR4 into PSSR would have been delayed until 2027.
Collaboration is necessary to compete with nVidia.

By the way, the increased cost of PSSR (2 ms) compared to TAA (1.6 ms) is a concern.
I'm pretty sure your PSSR figure is wrong and it is only 1ms, based on GT7 having a 120fps mode using PSSR, meaning at 120fps the game only has 8.33ms to render and upscale, and if the upscale takes 2ms, the pressure on GPU and CPU caches would be too much with just 6.33ms remaining to render the native frame, have you got a link to support that 2ms increase?
 

Tchu-Espresso

likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
I'm pretty sure your PSSR figure is wrong and it is only 1ms, based on GT7 having a 120fps mode using PSSR, meaning at 120fps the game only has 8.33ms to render and upscale, and if the upscale takes 2ms, the pressure on GPU and CPU caches would be too much with just 6.33ms remaining to render the native frame, have you got a link to support that 2ms increase?
He probably got that from DF’s video into the latest COD tech on the pro.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I'm pretty sure your PSSR figure is wrong and it is only 1ms, based on GT7 having a 120fps mode using PSSR, meaning at 120fps the game only has 8.33ms to render and upscale, and if the upscale takes 2ms, the pressure on GPU and CPU caches would be too much with just 6.33ms remaining to render the native frame, have you got a link to support that 2ms increase?
The COD dev and the leak document said 2ms.

As an aside, the reason PSSR is unused here it seems is in part the frame-time cost: it takes up 2.1ms of the frame-time

Source
 

DinoD

Member
The COD dev and the leak document said 2ms.

As an aside, the reason PSSR is unused here it seems is in part the frame-time cost: it takes up 2.1ms of the frame-time

Source
Did Cerny mention in one of his interviews that this cost could/will be further reduced?
 
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As an aside, the reason PSSR is unused here it seems is in part the frame-time cost: it takes up 2.1ms of the frame-time

By here, you mean AC: Shadows?

A PSSR update is coming, confirmed by the devs, and TAA only has a slightly less hit than PSSR, so this does not appear to be the case
 
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Ashamam

Member
A PSSR update is coming, confirmed by the devs, and TAA only has a slightly less hit than PSSR, so this does not appear to be the case
To be fair we don't know what they are doing with base resolution yet.

But given the low effort that went into performance mode outside of RTGI its fair to ask whether there was performance left on the table when they shipped their stopgap solution. Maybe they didn't do more with TAA performance mode because they knew the PSSR budget would eat the spare capacity. Then again performance is spotty with TAA so who knows.
 
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Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
By here, you mean AC: Shadows?

A PSSR update is coming, confirmed by the devs, and TAA only has a slightly less hit than PSSR, so this does not appear to be the case
No, COD. I linked it in the source. As for slightly less hit, it depends from what perspective I guess. 1ms to 2.1ms isn’t a huge hit, but if you go by ratio, 2.1 is over twice as heavy. It entirely depends how much rendering time is left and the cost relative to that.
Did Cerny mention in one of his interviews that this cost could/will be further reduced?
I’m almost positive he did. If not by him, by someone else. Whatever the case, the cost of upscalers can be reduced.
 
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To be fair we don't know what they are doing with base resolution yet.

But given the low effort that went into performance mode outside of RTGI its fair to ask whether there was performance left on the table when they shipped their stopgap solution. Maybe they didn't do more with TAA performance mode because they knew the PSSR budget would eat the spare capacity. Then again performance is spotty with TAA so who knows.

That's my suspicion, but time will tell if it's true.
 

Topher

Identifies as young
This might turn into one of those moments you wished you held off.. but, if ur enjoying the game on pro, just go for it mate.

It has cross progression with Ubisoft Connect so I’m playing on PC primarily and the trophies transfer over to PS. So I’m good really, but I’d like to see how it looks on Pro with PSSR at the same time.
 
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hussar16

Member
Something I have noticed with pssr is that with it on compared to the other upscale choice in star wars survivor .the pssr always looks more filmic and smoother like a movie while the other ones look more sharper. Honestly I prefer the filmic like smooth pssr because it looks less games and more like a movie.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
The Pro has been out for over 4 months. Why isn't PSSR, one of the most important features, present at launch in a AAA game? Why do we have to wait to get better IQ?

DF gave way too much praise to the Pro upgrade of Shadows. No PSSR automatically disqualifies it from contention.

But this is addressed in the OP

we analysed PSSR and TAA at the time of shipping AC Shadows and found better results with our TAA solution. However, PSSR is a new upscaler and after an in-depth collaboration with Sony over the past few months, many issues have been addressed, mostly around moving vegetation and water - problems that other titles have faced

it’s still early days, and they’re working with Sony to get the best out of the hardware. Just like most other AAA devs
 

Ozriel

M$FT
He doesn't say that PSSR is actually coming he just says "it's better than TAA"

You guys are funny man

In the article, they specifically promise PSSR is coming

What anti-aliasing and/or image reconstruction technique is used on console?

We use our own TAA implementation that we've continuously refined - though we'll add support for PSSR on PS5 Pro in a future update.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
The COD dev and the leak document said 2ms.

As an aside, the reason PSSR is unused here it seems is in part the frame-time cost: it takes up 2.1ms of the frame-time

Source
Reading Thomas Morgan's words as is:
"here it seems is in part the frame-time cost: it takes up 2.1ms of the frame-time, which in its current form is too great a chunk of the required 8.3ms frame-time required to run at 120fps. Later,"

and without a developer quote or Cerny spec to back that up I would argue GT7 completely contradicts that. Also simple maths suggests if 60fps with all the bells and pssr is internally 2560x1440, then 120 at the very best could scale to 1280x720, which devs don't do even on single player games, where sub 1080p native is an optics issue against PC master-race and DF opinion with 900p being on the apex. Removing the bells + PSSR was costing half the frame-time from maintaining 2560x1440 native @ 120fps

Doing a bit of maths (linear perform for resolution vs frame-rate which their results already show)
They are saying that if we compare native 120fps to 60fps pssr + bells. The, pssr + bells is equal to 1/120th of a second(8.3ms) in every 60fps frame given that native resolution is unchanged. Meaning that if we take their 2.1ms as true for pssr, then the bells cost 6.2ms @ 1440p, and 1/4 of the pixels ~= 1.6ms for the bells (@1280x720@120), then if say 1/4 of native for a 1280x720@120 + bells + PSSR, we need another ~=2.1ms to render without bells. meaning adding it all up 1.6ms + 2.1ms + 2.1ms is much less than 8.3ms. So clearly the bells and whistles and rendering cost are at least 2.5ms more, and PSSR then doesn't cost 2.1ms when refactoring that 2.5ms into the other numbers.

1440p is x 1.78 more pixels than 1080p, so we can factor those numbers (if true) 8.3/1.78(native render@1080p) + 6.2/1.78(bells@1080p) + 2.1ms(for PSSR) ~= 10.3ms, you can see that PSSR at any cost is beyond native 1080p + bells at 1080p120

Running the numbers one last time
1440p is 2.56 more pixels than 900p(1600x900), so 8.3/2.56 + 6.2/2.56 + 2.1ms ~ = 7.8ms

Which I think clearly shows if as DF thinks PSSR needs 2.1ms, then CoD would have a PSSR with bells and whistles mode a native 900p120fps.

The 2.1ms AntiAliasing metric in the graph images isn't just for PSSR, unless we think CoD doesn't have an AA solution, but that's what they are implying.

That measurement includes all the base AA techniques used for the 60fps mode, because render modes without PSSR still need a clean image, so it isn't like they aren't using those techniques, that would support DF's 0 - 2.1ms for PSSR claim.

The PS5 breakdown shows a AA budget on the base PS5 at over 1.2ms, so this actually supports the view that PSSR is closer to adding 1ms to the critical path, not adding 2.1ms like they are guessing at.
 
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Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Reading Thomas Morgan's words as is:
"here it seems is in part the frame-time cost: it takes up 2.1ms of the frame-time, which in its current form is too great a chunk of the required 8.3ms frame-time required to run at 120fps. Later,"

and without a developer quote or Cerny spec to back that up I would argue GT7 completely contradicts that. Also simple maths suggests if 60fps with all the bells and pssr is internally 2560x1440, then 120 at the very best could scale to 1280x720, which devs don't do even on single player games, where sub 1080p native is an optics issue against PC master-race and DF opinion with 900p being on the apex. Removing the bells + PSSR was costing half the frame-time from maintaining 2560x1440 native @ 120fps
It’s in the video.

oOG09uw.png


They aren't guessing. Tom says "it seems" because the cost varies between 2ms to 2.21ms. This checks out with the leaked documents that says PSSR costs around ~2ms as well.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
It’s in the video.

oOG09uw.png


They aren't guessing. Tom says "it seems" because the cost varies between 2ms to 2.21ms. This checks out with the leaked documents that says PSSR costs around ~2ms as well.
I addressed that. Read to the end of my post. The Anti-aliasing isn't 0ms without PSSR, to be a 0 vs 2.1ms.

edit: I have tried to skim the video, but can't see the same frame details for the 120fps mode. Is it in there, and what is the AA cost per frame without PSSR on the Pro?
 
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welshrat

Member
Seems it was a good idea to sit this one out for a while. I have a huge back log on PC (Stalker 2, Indiana Jones, Avowed) and PS5 Pro (Black myth, Kingdom Come 2, Horizon Remastered) so it seems by the time I get to this it will be in a good state.
 

Elios83

Member
I'm playing the game on balanced right now and it's already looking fantastic.
The ray traced reflections can look really nice in quality mode but at 30fps the game feels choppy.
The fact they're adding PSRR and reflections in balanced mode on the Pro is fantastic news, I hope the update won't be released by the time I finish the game though:messenger_grinning_sweat: :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
Wait a second ...I just read that blurb and nowhere does it say that PSSR is going to be patched in ....

Wtf ..I kept waiting to read that it's coming but he literally just says rt reflections are coming to Balanced mode NOT that pssr is ...
Hey! Maybe I am optimistic about it, tagged you just to play along, nothing serious my friend.
 
Are you for real? Here was I thinking you might have some idea (sometimes) yet you are basing everything off Youtube footage. Do you at least have premium access to DF so you can look at the real captures?
Are you trying to say that this UGLY shimmering on PS5Pro gameplay videos (Avatar, or Silent Hill 2 for example) is just due to YT compression, and when Digital Foundry mention excessive shimmering on the PS5 Pro they are just exaggerating?
 
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FSR 3 also looks good when upscaling 1440p to 4K.
Consoles (PS5, XSX) upscaling 720p to 4K is the root of all evil.

The PSSR image quality of games like Stellar Blade, FF7 Rebirth, Fortnite, The First Descendant, Space Marine 2, and Sony 1st is amazing.
In games like RE4 remake, Black Myth Wukong, and cuberpunk even 2880p FSRQuality was unnaceptable to me due to excessive shimmering. You dont even need to move to see this shimmering, you just need to look at foliage and you can see ant's like noise. It's extremely distracting. Not even games without any AA shimmers this badly.
 

SKYF@ll

Member
In games like RE4 remake, Black Myth Wukong, and cuberpunk even 2880p FSRQuality was unnaceptable to me due to excessive shimmering. You dont even need to move to see this shimmering, you just need to look at foliage and you can see ant's like noise. It's extremely distracting. Not even games without any AA shimmers this badly.
This is a thread about consoles. *$349-$699 consoles
As high-end PC users who find the 2880p FSR ugly and unplayable, aren't you and Boji in the minority here?
I think the following three are the ones to compare:
XSS (540p- FSR) vs. PS5 & XSX (720p- FSR) vs. PS5Pro (900-1440p PSSR)
However, I personally welcome those of you with a wealth of information on high-end PC.
 

Bojji

Member
This is a thread about consoles. *$349-$699 consoles
As high-end PC users who find the 2880p FSR ugly and unplayable, aren't you and Boji in the minority here?
I think the following three are the ones to compare:
XSS (540p- FSR) vs. PS5 & XSX (720p- FSR) vs. PS5Pro (900-1440p PSSR)
However, I personally welcome those of you with a wealth of information on high-end PC.

If they were able to fix all those problems PSSR had with RTGI before (that's the case based on Ubisoft words), image quality should be close to what can be seen in FFVII Rebirth. Rebirth might have higher res (1080-1200p) but it's a last gen looking game in many aspects

I agree about having realistic expectations from devices that have tight budget and power limits. I always expected 1080->4k reconstruction from Pro (that's what leaked papers focuses on as well), this game should be close to that.
 
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SKYF@ll

Member
Are you trying to say that this UGLY shimmering on PS5Pro gameplay videos (Avatar, or Silent Hill 2 for example) is just due to YT compression, and when Digital Foundry mention excessive shimmering on the PS5 Pro they are just exaggerating?
Shimmering can be judged to some extent in YouTube videos.
However, I don't think we should judge the upscaling quality because YouTube's quality is so bad.
Even when DF uses 2x zoom, it's nowhere near the actual screen of the PS5 Pro.
ff47ecad52d4f51067e62b29ad23dcc4f981336e.jpeg


DF Youtube vs. PS5 Pro screen shot(Performance Mode) *900p(RT)/60fps PSSR up to 4K
Su777wj4_o.png


PS5 Pro:JPEG image without zoom (PNG was too large to post)
W2AONJ6R_o.jpg
 

DinoD

Member
If they were able to fix all those problems PSSR had with RTGI before (that's the case based on Ubisoft words), image quality should be close to what can be seen in FFVII Rebirth. Rebirth might have higher res (1080-1200p) but it's a last gen looking game in many aspects

I agree about having realistic expectations from devices that have tight budget and power limits. I always expected 1080->4k reconstruction from Pro (that's what leaked papers focuses on as well), this game should be close to that.

I am very optimistic that they will eventually get there with developers having more time with PS5 Pro and further optimisations of PSSR.
 

Three

Member
It’s in the video.

oOG09uw.png


They aren't guessing. Tom says "it seems" because the cost varies between 2ms to 2.21ms. This checks out with the leaked documents that says PSSR costs around ~2ms as well.
Without Sony, FSR4 would have been released in 2026, and without AMD, the integration of FSR4 into PSSR would have been delayed until 2027.
Collaboration is necessary to compete with nVidia.

By the way, the increased cost of PSSR (2 ms) compared to TAA (1.6 ms) is a concern.
I'm pretty sure your PSSR figure is wrong and it is only 1ms, based on GT7 having a 120fps mode using PSSR, meaning at 120fps the game only has 8.33ms to render and upscale, and if the upscale takes 2ms, the pressure on GPU and CPU caches would be too much with just 6.33ms remaining to render the native frame, have you got a link to support that 2ms increase?


Wouldn't the cost be the frame time difference though vs TAA? So ~0.4ms. I don't think the frametime cost is that much of a concern if you were already applying some kind of AA.
 
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So they did atate for certain PSSR is coming? I was going by the part of the devs statement that was posted here so don't jump on me for saying it was not confirmed by the dev. Here are my impressions of AC Shadows: first off didn't waste my time trying to play this at 1080/60 because that is way too blurry, but based off of Quality mode the game looks phenomenal (rtgi is the shit and this is the best game on console to show it off) with the caveat that even at 30 fps it's rather soft looking. No way to turn off chromatic aberration on consoles is bullshit (especially after AC Mirage patched in the option after many people complained) so between that, the TAA, and fog the game can look a bit blurry. If they do get PSSR working without any issues than holy hell this game will be so gorgeous.

The only thing that isn't up to par is the facial models and animation. They did an amazing job with the lighting, detail, and density of foliage...most dense foliage of any game. The 30 fps is also surprisingly smooth unlike a game like Rise of the Ronin which feels like ass to play in Graphics mode. The game itself is also pretty good so far. Lot of improvements to gameplay animation, dialogue, and combat....I'm still early on though so maybe I haven't noticed the flaws yet. I'm playing with Japanese dialogue and the tone of the game is so much better than the last 4 AC games with the goofy English voices. It would really suck if this game sells terribly due to YouTuber hate campaigns.

If pssr can get this looking like 1440p in Performance mode I may switch modes. Though pssr with quality mode will bring out the detail on distant terrain which is what can look blurry now- that will look insane and make this a contender for best looking open world for me. Ubisoft is killing it this gen in that respect...everything except for character models.

Ubi makes it sound like Sony is working with 3rd parties to improve the Pro situation to some degree. Wish Capcom would do what Ubi is and implement the latest PSSR improvements ...dragons Dogma 2 was so beautiful but it just doesn't look right with pssr. Foliage artifacts are ubiquitous in that game. I really don't think PSSR has been good but there are a few signs that it's improving, like Space Marine 2, KCD2, Jedi Survivor after the patch it got and it sounds like Shadows will be great...

Better PSSR at launch probably would've made me feel a whole lot better about the Pro.
 
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