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[Proelite]

Yes, unless things changed very recently, Orion will tapeout next quarter and Canis one quarter after that.

Do you know if Orion is more or less the same as the 2023 AMD pitch?

 

[bitbydeath]

I guess it makes sense that you would immediately have to go to a strawman argument. I was very specific in my statements of fact. If you are having trouble following what is being said and that's what you got out of the conversation, I don't know what to tell you bro.

Requesting facts is considered a strawman?
You need to up your troll game, nobody is taking you seriously.

 

[pacman4000]

There is nothing on PS5 GPU outside of RT cores that go beyond RDNA1.

Clock speed doesn't change it. In the end it also doesn't really matter, lack of vrs is non issue and Mesh shaders and primitive shaders are almost the same thing. IPC of RDNA1 and RDNA2 is also pretty much the same.

It absolutely change it. RDNA1 can't run at 2.2 GHz so obviously the PS5 can't be RDNA1. Does this even need further explanation?

And again, you would think Sony/AMD should know. But no, random internet guy knows better.

What matters is that you are spreading lies just because you have made up something. That's certainly not what forums need these days.

 

[Zathalus]

Agree on the principle but that's history revisionnism. Final clocks were up to 2.23ghz. 2.17ghz is an honest average given by cerny for the Pro.

I know. Using the average seems the best approach, Sony seems to agree as they now advertise the Pro at those speeds, even though it can also go higher.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sampler Feedback Streaming is just a hardware accelerated method to efficiently stream textures, and it can save on RAM - you can easily create a software solution, which is what UE does with Virtual Texturing.

… and if you look online for devs commenting on X and Mastodon you will see that (at least on PC) SFS has its fair share of problems too (cost of binding resources is abnormally high).

Anyways, you are of course very right, these consoles are semi custom chips with a mix of features. Zen 2 FPU was essentially completely redesigned for Sony and the GPU has a mix of RDNA2 (CUs), some custom features (I/O SoC + features like cache scrubbers, etc…), and RDNA1 features (ROPS for example).

The old GitHub leak and a lot of the chatter seemed to imply a weaker system and much weaker RT support while what we actually saw was quite a lot of usage in titles even at or near launch (Spider-man made quite nice use of it for example).

 

[Panajev2001a]

I know. Using the average seems the best approach, Sony seems to agree as they now advertise the Pro at those speeds, even though it can also go higher.

That is why I like when Cerny does tech presentations and the dev docs leaks, they are quite direct and honest and if anything they are slightly underestimating the peak potential that some very determined people could unlock.

 

[peish]

Zen 2 FPU was essentially completely redesigned for Sony

I think sony downgraded some parts to save power.
Therefore a ps6 targetting 160w is a blasphemy. I can see them doing a Pro with 320W. But that is just repeating SS and SX jank.

We are really going in circles with every new console gens, someone will repeat the other mistake, always

 

[winjer]

Zen 2 FPU was essentially completely redesigned for Sony

Not completely redesigned. Just cut down to save space. But for a gaming console, these cuts don't make much difference to performance.

The Nerfed FPU in PS5’s Zen 2 Cores

Fritzchens Fritz’s awesome die photos revealed that the Playstation 5’s Zen 2 cores spend less die area on their FPUs than their desktop cousins.

chipsandcheese.com

But AMD didn't get this area reduction for free. Instead, they cut down the FP pipes and eliminated some duplicate FP/vector execution units. Zen 2 nominally has a quad port FPU, with ports named FP0, FP1, FP2, and FP3. On the PS5, FP3 has been deleted. FP2 is relegated to only handling FP/vector stores, with all of its math execution units removed or moved to FP0/FP1.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Not completely redesigned. Just cut down to save space. But for a gaming console, these cuts don't make much difference to performance.

The Nerfed FPU in PS5’s Zen 2 Cores

Fritzchens Fritz’s awesome die photos revealed that the Playstation 5’s Zen 2 cores spend less die area on their FPUs than their desktop cousins.

chipsandcheese.com

I know, I already referenced and quoted the same story before . To me that is quite a redesign. Physical layout changed, pipes were cut, units were reallocated, etc… You are underselling the changes they made and that are referenced in the text you quote.

The point was that they worked to change existing components to achieve a goal, the goal was to cut size and reduce complexity in a way that would not affect gaming performance in PS5 titles. Mission accomplished.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

edit edit: after hunting down the original conversation, I remembered it wrong as well. He never stated "ZD looks better than FBW". He stated "it could look better" if development was PC centric vs the game also being built to run on PS4. People then ran with a mischaracterization of what was said. All the IQ shit i was referring to came later, so in reality, we are both wrong.

'It could look better' completely changed the context of the conversation. It seems that the people who attacked VFXveteran simply lacked reading comprehension. Now the same people are trying to attack you and they also ignore what you actually said. They are also being rude .

 

[Shmunter]

'It could look better' completely changed the context of the conversation. It seems that the people who attacked VFXveteran simply lacked reading comprehension. Now the same people are trying to attack you and they also ignore what you actually said. They are also being rude .

ROFL

 

[Bojji]

It absolutely change it. RDNA1 can't run at 2.2 GHz so obviously the PS5 can't be RDNA1. Does this even need further explanation?

And again, you would think Sony/AMD should know. But no, random internet guy knows better.

What matters is that you are spreading lies just because you have made up something. That's certainly not what forums need these days.

Cerny also called Pro GPU RDNA 2.X, they make shit up.

There is nothing on PS5 GPU that suggest RDNA2 besides RT:

- no SFS
- no Mesh Shaders
- No hardware VRS

And quoting myself from 2024:

it even has no DP4A support that was added in RDNA1 revision (like 5500XT).

 

[Gaiff]

'It could look better' completely changed the context of the conversation. It seems that the people who attacked VFXveteran simply lacked reading comprehension. Now the same people are trying to attack you and they also ignore what you actually said. They are also being rude .

Horizon Remastered maxed out on PC does look better than 60fps Forbidden West on PS5. VFXveteran redeemed.

 

[FireFly]

Cerny also called Pro GPU RDNA 2.X, they make shit up.

Well, the Pro GPU apparently now supports the full feature set of RDNA 2.0 (mesh shaders, hardware VRS etc.) plus geometry pipeline improvements from RDNA 3.

 

[Euler007]

Were they any AMD proposal after this one?

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Well, the Pro GPU apparently now supports the full feature set of RDNA 2.0 (mesh shaders, hardware VRS etc.) plus geometry pipeline improvements from RDNA 3.

I don't think any of those have ever been used in a Pro game, though.

 

[Loxus]

Not a side project for sure. But I'm not so sure about it being their switch 2 competitor. Other than the spec existing and it being pretty much confirmed to be real, the business objective seems like pure speculation at this point? Has Sony ever indicated they want to capture any of Switch 2's market? The buyer profiles are distinct enough that it would be a wild goose chase imo

EDIT: I guess there is this from Bloomberg, so perhaps I'm the one misreading their goals

The Switch 2 market is hard to beat.
It's one device that quickly and hassle free, switches between being a handheld and being a console at a single price point.

Sony having two separate devices isn't going to effect the Switch 2 market.

If Canis some how turns out to be the PS6 controller, where it's in every box. Than Sony has a chance to gain market share there.

It opens new and unique ways to play and doesn't have to be the most powerful console either.

I can see marketing as:
- Second screen (chat, hud, inventory, etc.) for a clean TV screen experience.

- Quickly swap to stream mode (PS5/PS6) mode to play anywhere around the house with direct WiFi or WiFi Hotspots away from home.

- Native mode for all PS4 games and select PS5/PS6 games.

This is how I see them tapping into the Switch 2 market. Many people aways forget the Switch is a hybrid console.

 

[FireFly]

I don't think any of those have ever been used in a Pro game, though.

Naraka: Bladepoint seems to use hardware VRS.

PS5 Pro Runs Naraka: Bladepoint Twice as Fast, Says Developer; PSSR Has Similar Quality to DLSS

We interviewed the developers of Naraka: Bladepoint about the PS5 Pro console and how they're using the new hardware in their game.

wccftech.com

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Naraka: Bladepoint seems to use hardware VRS.

PS5 Pro Runs Naraka: Bladepoint Twice as Fast, Says Developer; PSSR Has Similar Quality to DLSS

We interviewed the developers of Naraka: Bladepoint about the PS5 Pro console and how they're using the new hardware in their game.

wccftech.com

Interesting, thanks.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Cerny also called Pro GPU RDNA 2.X, they make shit up.

No, he explained what he meant (what was pure full RDNA 2.0 and what was missing in PS5, what was from RDNA3 and RDNA4 like RT, and what was custom like their ML/AI enhancements, … and it made sense, what are you exactly calling BS there? Feels like you are the one making things up not Cerny ).

There is nothing on PS5 GPU that suggest RDNA2 besides RT:

Except the CU design / Units layout, RT, etc… you are fighting a lost battle. Not sure why…

- no SFS

Great, as if we did not know the XSX GPU was not finalised later and has some features that did not make the cut in PS5. Given the usage in the wild and what devs say about SFS it seems like Cerny was just very effective at choosing what really made the most sense given the budget at the time .

- no Mesh Shaders

Mesh Shaders are built upon the same exact HW as primitive shaders, there was already an AMD engineer talking about it.

- No hardware VRS

ROP feature, ROP are RDNA 1 evolved, everyone already knew and acknowledged that.

The often debated double and quad rated integer support, if missing, is optional in RDNA2.

 

[Bojji]

No, he explained what he meant (… and it made sense, what are you exactly calling BS there? Feels like you are the one making things up not Cerny ).


Except the CU design / Units layout, RT, etc… you are fighting a lost battle. Not sure why…


Great, as if we did not know the XSX GPU was not finalised later and has some features that did not make the cut in PS5. Given the usage in the wild and what devs say about SFS it seems like Cerny was just very effective at choosing what really made the most sense given the budget at the time .


Mesh Shaders are built upon the same exact HW as primitive shaders, there was already an AMD engineer talking about it.


ROP feature, ROP are RDNA 1 evolved, everyone already knew and acknowledged that.

The often debated double and quad rated integer support, if missing, is optional in RDNA2.

So it's missing most of the stuff that make FULL RDNA2 on PC (or even series X). Thanks for confirming.

Most of the stuff that changed between RDNA1 -> RDNA 2 and PS5 support of it:

SFS - X
MS - X
DP4A - X
VRS - X
L3 cache - X
HW RT - V

vs. Series X and PS5 Pro

SFS - V
MS - V
DP4A - V
VRS - V
L3 cache - X
HW RT - V

 

[Lagspike_exe]

So it's missing most of the stuff that make FULL RDNA2 on PC (or even series X). Thanks for confirming.

Talk about fighting a losing battle.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

… and if you look online for devs commenting on X and Mastodon you will see that (at least on PC) SFS has its fair share of problems too (cost of binding resources is abnormally high).

Anyways, you are of course very right, these consoles are semi custom chips with a mix of features. Zen 2 FPU was essentially completely redesigned for Sony and the GPU has a mix of RDNA2 (CUs), some custom features (I/O SoC + features like cache scrubbers, etc…), and RDNA1 features (ROPS for example).

The old GitHub leak and a lot of the chatter seemed to imply a weaker system and much weaker RT support while what we actually saw was quite a lot of usage in titles even at or near launch (Spider-man made quite nice use of it for example).

SFS was a key part of xbox velocity architecture. This technology impressed me a lot five years ago with its potential and tech demos (huge VRAM savings of 2–3x) but it seems SFS is totally ingored by developers now. The same with mesh shaders (I think only Alan Wake 2 use it?). There was also VRS, which was used in quite a few games, however, I always turned it off because it impacted the image quality, causing pixelation in various areas.

I wonder if the long game development cycle (now around 5–7 years) has something to do with the decision not to use SFS and mesh shaders. I assume that developers must take these features into account very early on in order to implement them.

 

[Bojji]

SFS was a key part of xbox velocity architecture. This technology impressed me a lot five years ago with its potential and tech demos (huge VRAM savings of 2–3x) but it seems SFS is totally ingored by developers now. The same with mesh shaders (I think only Alan Wake 2 use it?). There was also VRS, which was used in quite a few games, however, I always turned it off because it impacted the image quality, causing pixelation in various areas.

I wonder if the long game development cycle (now around 5–7 years) has something to do with the decision not to use SFS and mesh shaders. I assume that developers must take these features into account very early on in order to implement them.

I think PS5 lacking those features delayed adoption for years. It's the dominant console so why would they build games around something it doesn't support?

 

[PlayStaytion]

Guys, do the math on Techpowerup site, the magnus and ps6 would be closer to the rtx 6080 and rtx 6070 respectively, with the newest feature sets. We have seen that before, that's basically blowing the 5090 out of the water.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Guys, do the math on Techpowerup site, the magnus and ps6 would be closer to the rtx 6080 and rtx 6070 respectively, with the newest feature sets. We have seen that before, that's basically blowing the 5090 out of the water.

And this round goes to you . It would be hilarious if the next generation of consoles could rival the RTX 6080 and leave the 5090 in the dust. Maybe, in some alternate reality, it really happened – who knows?

 

[Aaravos]

I think PS5 lacking those features delayed adoption for years. It's the dominant console so why would they build games around something it doesn't support?

Did Xbox first party studios use those features? Vrs yes but don't recall any of them using sfs even mesh shaders

 

[PlayStaytion]

And this round goes to you . It would be hilarious if the next generation of consoles could rival the RTX 6080 and leave the 5090 in the dust. Maybe, in some alternate reality, it really happened – who knows?

Dat Turbo Kidneys.

 

[Bojji]

Did Xbox first party studios use those features? Vrs yes but don't recall any of them using sfs even mesh shaders

Yeah, VRS was common but not much else. Same way that most Sony devs don't give a shit about RT while console supports it, some of their games don't even use PS5 I/O hardware.

But if the hardware was standard across both console makers more third party developers would use some of those features for sure.

 

[Panajev2001a]

So it's missing most of the stuff that make FULL RDNA2 on PC (or even series X). Thanks for confirming.

Then it is Zen 1 because the FPU is not full Zen 2.

We could talk about how your point was initially nothing about it is RDNA1 except RT and how you are disingenuously moving the goalposts to trolling PS5 Pro then moving to how your point was not 100% retail RDNA2, etc…

We could do that or I could ask you if you aren't tired yet? Tired of pushing forward the same trolling arguments from years and years ago and trying to rile people up about PS5 Pro which is also low level bait from years ago.

If you have fun keep entertaining the rest…

 

[Bojji]

Then it is Zen 1 because the FPU is not full Zen 2.

We could talk about how your point was initially nothing about it is RDNA1 except RT and how you are disingenuously moving the goalposts to trolling PS5 Pro then moving to how your point was not 100% retail RDNA2, etc…

We could do that or I could ask you if you aren't tired yet? Tired of pushing forward the same trolling arguments from years and years ago and trying to rile people up about PS5 Pro which is also low level bait from years ago.

If you have fun keep entertaining the rest…

I was right about PS5 Pro just like was always right about this. Telling the truth =/= trolling.

It's trolling to you because I say things about Sony that you don't like. Reality is, PS5 lacks most of the stuff that makes RDNA2 - RDNA2... and that's objective reality. And I already said that in the long run it didn't make much difference, PS5 is the dominant console and devs don't think about those features when making games.

 

[Aaravos]

Yeah, VRS was common but not much else. Same way that most Sony devs don't give a shit about RT while console supports it, some of their games don't even use PS5 I/O hardware.

But if the hardware was standard across both console makers more third party developers would use some of those features for sure.

Maybe, but as you said playstation developers aren't really using ps5 features so I have my doubts to be honest

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Guys, do the math on Techpowerup site, the magnus and ps6 would be closer to the rtx 6080 and rtx 6070 respectively, with the newest feature sets. We have seen that before, that's basically blowing the 5090 out of the water.

PS5 Pro is ~ 7700 XT performance IIRC.

 

[Zathalus]

Guys, do the math on Techpowerup site, the magnus and ps6 would be closer to the rtx 6080 and rtx 6070 respectively, with the newest feature sets. We have seen that before, that's basically blowing the 5090 out of the water.

You need to check your math. 3x a 2070 Super gets you to a ~5080. As for feature set, who knows what is in the pipeline, but considering the 2020 PS5 failed to match 2018 Nvidia cards in feature set, I wouldn't be too optimistic they have something the 5000 series does not.

 

[Kazekage1981]

Any upgrades on the SSD based on PCIE gen 5? 10GB/sec to 20 GB/sec perhaps?

 

[pacman4000]

Cerny also called Pro GPU RDNA 2.X, they make shit up.

Well, they had to call it something since base PS5 is clearly RDNA2.

There is nothing on PS5 GPU that suggest RDNA2 besides RT

Except that RDNA1 can't run at 2.2 GHz. A very obvious case.

 

[Bojji]

Well, they had to call it something since base PS5 is clearly RDNA2.


Except that RDNA1 can't run at 2.2 GHz. A very obvious case.

He called it that because it goes beyond RDNA2 specs, he was just being creative. Same with calling PS5 RDNA2...

Xbox Series X is RDNA2 and runs with 1800MHz clock...

5700XT was their second GPU using 7nm so no wonder it wasn't able to clock that high, if it was released in 2020 we would see over 2GHz with refined manufacturing. People that did some OC:

 

[VeganElduderino]

Meh! Not thanks, this generation of Playstation is the worse imo, I'm done with Sony, I'll stick with Pc and Nintendo

 

[kevboard]

Meh! Not thanks, this generation of Playstation is the worse imo, I'm done with Sony, I'll stick with Pc and Nintendo

*WORST

 

[Det]

Can Sony regain our trust after concord and other failed games? Tbf, Sony is not that different from MS after Concord.

The GaaS fiasco has been resolved, Sony has canceled most of them, and studios are back to making quality games. It's a setback and a course correction.
Phill can't produce quality games that attract players and started saying that even if Starfield were 10/11, people wouldn't buy Xbox instead of PlayStation.

That's the difference between Playstation and Xbox.
And that's why the Xbox ending will be much better for the market.

People trust Playstation until proven otherwise.
People DON'T trust Xbox until proven otherwise.
Of course, this is in the real world with normal consumers, not the Xbox fanboys who campaign online trying to "balance" things out.

What confidence, the game ended because nobody bought it and not because it was a Halo Infinite, a piece of shit with PS2 graphics, or Forza Motorsport that not even Xbox fanboys mention anymore, which even had its studio closed.

PS5 is RDNA1, RT from RDNA2 was added to it (leak was probably before that happened). Just like PS5 Pro is RDNA 2 in raster with RDNA4 RT units.

Still with this RDNA1 delusion?

 

[nial]

Will anyone make a dedicated Orion/Canis rumour/speculation thread? Or is it too early for that?
Yeah, "do it yourself" and all that. I just don't think you want a self-admitted tech illiterate handling that thread.

 

[Det]

PS5 GitHub leak was extremely close to the final product. Clocks were less than 10% different.

No, it wasn't.

But I hope everyone continues to believe it... Especially Phil Spencer, who based the entire Xbox SX and SS on the fake leak and then based the entire Xbox advertising campaign on this rumor being true.

I'm sure everyone will believe this rumor again and underestimate Sony, as always.

I'll tell you, this Github leak looked more like a counterintelligence operation... A purposeful leak by Sony to trick MS and its trained fanboys.

 

[kevboard]

No, it wasn't.

But I hope everyone continues to believe it... Especially Phil Spencer, who based the entire Xbox SX and SS on the fake leak and then based the entire Xbox advertising campaign on this rumor being true.

I'm sure everyone will believe this rumor again and underestimate Sony, as always.

yes it was... because it was real... it's confirmed real

 

[Det]

yes it was... because it was real... it's confirmed real

I'll tell you, this Github leak looked more like a counterintelligence operation... A deliberate leak by Sony to trick Microsoft and its trained fanboys... It was a true disaster in the real world, for anyone who followed the launch and is a normal person... All the hype about the Xbox SX's power was a lie that broke the trust in Microsoft among early adopters (not the lunatic and hysterical fanboys who kept talking about new tools and mysterious devkits).

The Xbox SX launch broke trust in Microsoft hardware

Maca Craig broke trust in Microsoft Software.

 

[ReasonBeing]

'It could look better' completely changed the context of the conversation. It seems that the people who attacked VFXveteran simply lacked reading comprehension. Now the same people are trying to attack you and they also ignore what you actually said. They are also being rude .

I forced myself to not read the last reply they wrote. I would feel compelled to respond, which would be a waste of time considering the fact that they obviously aren't taking the time to read my response with any sort of critical thinking. Naunce apparently doesn't exist for some.

It definitely seems like a comprehension issue, but I also suspect it's more of a willfull ignorance. If they actually took the time to read what I wrote, they would have to grapple with the fact that they came to an incorrect conclusion.

 

[Zathalus]

No, it wasn't.

Yes it was.

PlayStation 5 To Be Almost As Powerful As RTX 2080; GPU To Be Clocked At 2GHZ - Rumor

According to rumors from a known insider, the PlayStation 5 console is going to be almost as powerful at the NVIDIA RTX 2080 GPU

wccftech.com

A leak of 2Ghz when the final average clocks were 2.17Ghz. A difference of 8%. You'll notice that the claim "Almost RTX2080 power" was also pretty accurate.

Everything else about the leak (8 core Zen 2, memory bandwidth, RT support) was spot on.

 

[kevboard]

I'll tell you, this Github leak looked more like a counterintelligence operation... A deliberate leak by Sony to trick Microsoft and its trained fanboys... It was a true disaster in the real world, for anyone who followed the launch and is a normal person... All the hype about the Xbox SX's power was a lie that broke the trust in Microsoft among early adopters (not the lunatic and hysterical fanboys who kept talking about new tools and mysterious devkits).

The Xbox SX launch broke trust in Microsoft hardware

Maca Craig broke trust in Microsoft Software.

the leaked specs were 100% correct... what the fuck are you talking about? the only thing that differed from the final system was the clock speed

 

[VeganElduderino]

*WORST

thanks grammar Nazi!

 

[Det]

Yes it was.

PlayStation 5 To Be Almost As Powerful As RTX 2080; GPU To Be Clocked At 2GHZ - Rumor

According to rumors from a known insider, the PlayStation 5 console is going to be almost as powerful at the NVIDIA RTX 2080 GPU

wccftech.com

A leak of 2Ghz when the final average clocks were 2.17Ghz. A difference of 8%. You'll notice that the claim "Almost RTX2080 power" was also pretty accurate.

Everything else about the leak (8 core Zen 2, memory bandwidth, RT support) was spot on.

the leaked specs were 100% correct... what the fuck are you talking about? the only thing that differed from the final system was the clock speed

Github was RDNA1
PS5 is RDNA2.
The clock difference is the least important thing compared to the difference between RDNA1 and 2.

 

[kevboard]

Github was RDNA1
PS5 is RDNA2.
The clock difference is the least important thing compared to the difference between RDNA1 and 2.

RDNA1 is more powerful flop for flop than RDNA2... I hope you know that lol.
also the PS5 lacks basically all RDNA2 features except for Ray intersection hardware.

no VRS tier 2, no Mesh Shaders etc.

also it was clear that some earlier versions of the chip lacked RT, but everyone knew the final version wouldn't.