mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This isn't competing with the Switch. It's a better version of the PS Portal, which is selling about 2 million units a year.
[MLiD] PS6 Dockable Handheld Leak: AMD Canis Specs CRUSH XBOX Ally X!
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Rumor Hardware
This isn't competing with the Switch. It's a better version of the PS Portal, which is selling about 2 million units a year.
Justin9mm
Member
Well my peripheral vision is the same between sitting close to my monitor and sitting in front of my 85" inch TV. Your setup is the issue, people with half a brain don't sit far from a TV. Although, at least where I'm from, people buy 65 inch OLEDs because that's all they can afford and then proceeed to put them in lounge rooms or places where they sit 3-4 metres away. Insanity.
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Tobimacoss
Member
So on the Xbox Magnus SoC, we can see a large rectangle next to the CPU cores which I assume to be the NPU. Which would mean the blank area around the NPU would be the Media/Display Engines.
Looking at the PS6, we see the same large rectangle next to the CPU cores, with presumably the Media/Display Engines above.
Same with the handheld.
Does this mean the PS6 also have an NPU?
I know Kepler already...
Looking at the PS6, we see the same large rectangle next to the CPU cores, with presumably the Media/Display Engines above.
Same with the handheld.
Does this mean the PS6 also have an NPU?
I know Kepler already...
If you look at the Magnus, Orion, Canis dies, it seems Magnus AT2 has 12 memory controllers, Orion has 5 memory controllers, and Canis has 6 memory controllers.
Magnus will likely be 3 GB X 12 for 36 GB vram total. That design also allows OEMs to use 4 GB sticks for the higher spec "Elite" variants with more ram and clocks and storage. So 4 GB X 12 = 48 GB total.
PS6 Orion is likely using Clamshell design on the 5 memory controllers, so 3 GB X 2 X 5 = 30 GB vram total.
PS6 Canis will likely be 3 GB X 6 = 18 GB vram total.
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th4tguy
Member
That aligns with original leaked data. I believe this info is stating that the specs have been boosted and reporting on that. Granted, support for up to 48gb of ram doesn't mean it will HAVE that much. But it would be needed if Sony is banking on baked in ai hardware.So on the Xbox Magnus SoC, we can see a large rectangle next to the CPU cores which I assume to be the NPU. Which would mean the blank area around the NPU would be the Media/Display Engines.
Looking at the PS6, we see the same large rectangle next to the CPU cores, with presumably the Media/Display Engines above.
Same with the handheld.
Does this mean the PS6 also have an NPU?
I know Kepler already...
If you look at the Magnus, Orion, Canis dies, it seems Magnus AT2 has 12 memory controllers, Orion has 5 memory controllers, and Canis has 6 memory controllers.
Magnus will likely be 3 GB X 12 for 36 GB vram total. That design also allows OEMs to use 4 GB sticks for the higher spec "Elite" variants with more ram and clocks and storage. So 4 GB X 12 = 48 GB total.
PS6 Orion is likely using Clamshell design on the 5 memory controllers, so 3 GB X 2 X 5 = 30 GB vram total.
PS6 Canis will likely be 3 GB X 6 = 18 GB vram total.
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
It's pretty convenient timing for Sony to have their dockable launch not too long after S2 but just late enough to offer a substantial performance boost compared to it, also exploiting the fact that Nintendo typically drags out it's gens much longer than them. Will be interesting to see consumer perception of the two next to each other.
dgrdsv
Member
RDNA2 is about as efficient as RDNA3, RDNA4 is about 15% better than these two.
For RDNA5 to cut down power from ~100W to a handheld level it should be 4X as efficient per watt as RDNA4.
This is very obviously not going to happen, and a "far smaller node" won't help with this either as all these newer nodes past N7 have very limited gains in power/clocks/density.
Even a "docked" mode doesn't seem likely to happen with such wattage at these settings as you'd probably need about 50-60W and that's 2X down from RDNA2/3 and some -40% from RDNA4.
So the concern which
Loxus
brought up is valid and it will be interesting to see how far this "eco mode" will end up being from the actual handheld h/w.Physiognomonics
Member
This is far more complicated than that. The GPU in low power mode doesn't consume 100W alone! come on man.RDNA2 is about as efficient as RDNA3, RDNA4 is about 15% better than these two.
For RDNA5 to cut down power from ~100W to a handheld level it should be 4X as efficient per watt as RDNA4.
This is very obviously not going to happen, and a "far smaller node" won't help with this either as all these newer nodes past N7 have very limited gains in power/clocks/density.
Even a "docked" mode doesn't seem likely to happen with such wattage at these settings as you'd probably need about 50-60W and that's 2X down from RDNA2/3 and some -40% from RDNA4.
So the concern which
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
'Cause you'll be able to play Absolum, SOR4, the Ninja Gaidens and all the latest games (even if downgraded/downscaled) you bought for your PS5/PS6 without needing to be constantly teethered to wi-fi when your kid starts to download 60GB of data and your GF/wife decides to start a streaming marathon at the same time while you're trying to game.
I loved the portal (minus the 59.96Hz stutter) but let's be real, it's not ideal in many households with a shitty home network.
My whole 10+ year old PS library on the go ? Sign me the fook up
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Jinzo Prime
Member
It's not for you, it's for markets that don't want or can't afford the full fat PS6 or for people who want a secondary system. Two SKUs was perhaps, a good idea, but the Series S was in the wrong form factor. This will widen Sony total addressable market considerably.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Same reason I have a PC and a Steam Deck? Play on the go anywhere without streaming hiccups. I play my SD outside my house often (in the summer) which doesn't get good rception and I don't have unlimited hotspot with my phone.
I also stream to my PC to the Steam Deck for games that it can't run too.
Personally this isn't for me since I barely have a library with PS, but I can totally see why if someone does have a good sized library.
crackajack
Member
Different features?
Full console, for 4k gaming
Handheld for ~FHD gaming on the go (maybe with a TV-out like Switch?)
Handheld caged inside a console, markets that are still stuck in FHD and or are just cheapass gamers. PS4 lifetime is definitely over now, so people will want/ are forced to move to something, maybe something that is just cheap and okay enough for modern games and a bigger upgrade than the Series S was, this one with a two generations gap.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Can someone who is more intelligent than me explain how a 100 watt PS5 profile can work on a handheld. Surely, the handheld will peak out at about 35 watts or so?
What is my lack of tech knowledge doing wrong here?
What is my lack of tech knowledge doing wrong here?
Radical_3d
Member
Also I was seeing the DF comparison with low power profile and thinking to myself: yeahhhhh... most casuals won't notice. And since they wont notice many will not buy the PS6 but this one, since portability adds a lot of value to that kind of customer.
Actually 35 watts would be a Game Gear performance handheld. It must run at 20 max (15 better) and hopefully use some of those new batteries that are hitting the market, so it can reach 5 hours of use.
Well, it's 100 watts for the whole system that most likely has a lot of power hungry stuff not included or scaled back in a handheld. Then there's the 3nm process node, which will be more efficient than current 6nm's PS5. A current day 3.5 RDNA Z2 Extreme is already half the TFlop performance of a PS5 (yes, with flopinflaction, but Kepler said that dual issue will be actually useful in RDNA5). And that doesn't consume 50 watts. Then everybody here is saying that Sony can't capture a render call in its own system but I keep my position that they are not monkeys smashing a keyboard and they'll be able to. So they won't target 4K and they won't be rendering at whatever the PS5 power saving is doing at native, but much lower and then upscaled with a "lite FSR" like the "lite DLSS" that the Switch 2 is doing and that proves to be better than just bruteforce the image. The most challenging part is memory bandwidth, that is very power hungry. The PSP3 will have 1/3 of that (doable since the SW2 already have 1/4 of the PS5 bandwidth), will profit of that memory compression thing Cerny said and rendering close to 1/3 to 1/2 of the native resolution and/or framerate of the PS5. Yes, Immortals Of Aveum is going to look rough, but everything from Sony is more or less going to work...
(For a handheld)
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Also I was seeing the DF comparison with low power profile and thinking to myself: yeahhhhh... most casuals won't notice. And since they wont notice many will not buy the PS6 but this one, since portability adds a lot of value to that kind of customer.
Actually 35 watts would be a Game Gear performance handheld. It must run at 20 max (15 better) and hopefully use some of those new batteries that are hitting the market, so it can reach 5 hours of use.
Well, it's 100 watts for the whole system that most likely has a lot of power hungry stuff not included or scaled back in a handheld. Then there's the 3nm process node, which will be more efficient than current 6nm's PS5. A current day 3.5 RDNA Z2 Extreme is already half the TFlop performance of a PS5 (yes, with flopinflaction, but Kepler said that dual issue will be actually useful in RDNA5). And that doesn't consume 50 watts. Then everybody here is saying that Sony can't capture a render call in its own system but I keep my position that they are not monkeys smashing a keyboard and they'll be able to. So they won't target 4K and they won't be rendering at whatever the PS5 power saving is doing at native, but much lower and then upscaled with a "lite FSR" like the "lite DLSS" that the Switch 2 is doing and that proves to be better than just bruteforce the image. The most challenging part is memory bandwidth, that is very power hungry. The PSP3 will have 1/3 of that (doable since the SW2 already have 1/4 of the PS5 bandwidth), will profit of that memory compression thing Cerny said and rendering close to 1/3 to 1/2 of the native resolution and/or framerate of the PS5. Yes, Immortals Of Aveum is going to look rough, but everything from Sony is more or less going to work...
(For a handheld)
Man, sounds super interesting. I am really excited to see this thing in action natively.
Radical_3d
Member
It'll be more interesting than appealing for the average gaffer.
We got 5 years of PS4 games in our faces to learn that lesson. With the predictable success of the SW2 and the new era of AI upscalers PSP3 won't be the lower denominator since it'll sell bucket loads less than the SW2. By the time we're ready to let the PS5 generation behind most games will target a 60-80 million SW2 userbase + all the PC handhelds (including Deck 2) that thanks to DLSS-FSR would survive in the Magnus-PS6 environment.
Physiognomonics
Member
Because the handheld will not be mandated with PS6 games (but it could be mandated with new PS5 games). With cross-gen and the PS5 generation lasting for years (more than PS4-PS5) they won't need to.
The vast majority of PS6 games will be also PS5 / handheld games. And the handheld having more memory than PS5 makes the patches very easy. Developers won't have to modify assets or spend months to reduce memory usage like it was the case for some XSS games.
It's called PS6 handheld because in the end for the public it will play PS6 games : COD, Fortnite, Battlefield, GTA6, Horizon, Demon's Souls (already patched), Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet, the Spider-man games etc.
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Ashamam
Member
Those die shots are commissioned by MLiD. They are only supposed to reflect the paper specs he leaked. So I'd be careful about taking anything from them further than what is explicitly put in writing. When it comes to describing them to the artist he might be entering into speculation territory. At least thats my recollection when he first showed them.
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RoboFu
One of the green rats
Huh? lol there is no way this thing is only going to play " some " games . Where did you read that?
Radical_3d
Member
Also unpopular opinion: Vita was the last handheld. Everything onwards is a monstrosity barely portable, designed for this target audience:
dgrdsv
Member
So you're suggesting that Zen6 will somehow consume 8X less power than a d/c'ed Zen2 for the same performance?
If we take a look at AMD's perf/watt progression between Zen2 and Zen5 this is even less likely to happen than the 4X gain in RDNA5 vs RDNA4 (and that 4X figure counts the CPU part of consumption into itself obviously; it's just that it's the smaller part anyway).
I think that the "eco" mode will end up being fairly specific to home consoles while the handheld will likely need even further cuts to rendering res to run these games.
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Switch 2 will hold back next generation home console? But nice stealth console warring post.
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Physiognomonics
Member
There are only 4 cores, not 8. I'll stop there (I could go on with the others components) because you are really in bad faith. That seems to really bother you that porting those PS5 games to the handheld could be so easy.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
I haven't. In the worst case ps6 portable will run badly but it's the straight counterparts of Sony of the switch 2. What they did it's try to make easier possible port multiplat games on it from ps5/ps6 but AAA can easily use the switch 2 setting and improve it a bit.They haven't to downgrade the ps6 version to make it feasible on ps6 portable because already exist the switch 2 on the market.How can you miss my whole point so dramatically ?
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I haven't. In the worst case ps6 portable will run badly but it's the straight counterparts of Sony of the switch 2. What they did it's try to make easier possible port multiplat games on it from ps5/ps6 but they can easily use the switch 2 setting and improve it a bit.They haven't to touch the ps6 version
Sounds like a good business plan, and a solid product for the end user if they follow your idea.
PlayStation is not Xbox
The Xbox hardware was designed by a mentally challenged idiot, Jason Ronald, who said the PS5 would be "hard for developers."
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I guess this is their plane. At the worst not ps6 portable version if it's impossible on Switch 2 and run too bad scaled down from the ps6 base
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Radical_3d
Member
They can't. Game development is not "ok, we have the Switch 2 version done, up-res that and push compile-on-PSP-3".
ResilientBanana
Member
Don't devkits have 2x the RAM as the consumer console? I would guess 24GB.
This would be way worse than XSS
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You just need to know how to design, like Cerny always did, and not be stupid and arrogant like Jason Ronald with the Series, and it might work.
How many times has Sony gotten it right while MS didn't?
Based on what? Portable is a different market and they aren't obligated to make run a ps6 games on portable.
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Lol. Why not. In the worst case yes they can "use" the same graphic profile of the switch 2 during the development. More or less it's what AAA did with the ps5/XSX multiplats.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Power curves don't share a linear relationship with performance. The Steam Deck's APU draws about 15W under full load, less than 10% of what the PS5 draws, yet it's about ~20% of its performance. If you increase the power by 10x, you won't suddenly get a 150W APU that's twice the performance of the PS5.
It's all about finding the sweet spot between the two.
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GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
I mean I don't think anyone should expect thing to do PS6 exclusive games...or least not many. I honestly don't think it even has to anyway.
To me this device will be worth it on whether Sony manages to get general/universal PS5 compatibility implemented. Then you have a very sizable library and will ensure you do keep getting you new (crossgen) games up until ~2030 if PS4 longevity is anything to go by.
digimaster7
Member
at least that's how it works on the switch, on handheld the game is on lower resolution
with a hacked switch you can force the game to run on docked mode even in handheld, but that's gonna cause the performance to take a hit so you need to balance it out with the overclock plugin
Radical_3d
Member
lol because it's not how devkits work. Yes, if they have the work done for the SW2 they can use that for the PSP3 but it'll have to actually do all the job related to what a port is. It may, depending on how much this thing sells, not be worth it. Whereas if it's an automatic translation from the PS5 code and devkit the chances of having a broader catalog is greater. That's why it is the way it is. If it depends on besting the Nintendo version you can see how great that worked with the Vita.
The best example of this is the first Acorn Computer and thus the first ARM. It was meant to be a cheap low powered machine and chip. So much so that in the final prototype they forgot to plug the chip to the power line but nobody noticed because it worked just on the static of the machine. And that's how the most efficient architecture that we have was born.
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GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
Actually I just thought of a interesting compromise that I'm sure many people wouldn't like but:
Handheld/Docked mode: PS4, PS5 games
Docked mode only: PS6 exclusives
It probably could be done if the Handheld mode is already starting at 5 Teraflops....the Docked mode would be relatively powerful could probably make PS6 exclusives more feasible...but it would still be a XSS situation...
Have the rumors claimed if this will have a Docked mode at all?
Handheld/Docked mode: PS4, PS5 games
Docked mode only: PS6 exclusives
It probably could be done if the Handheld mode is already starting at 5 Teraflops....the Docked mode would be relatively powerful could probably make PS6 exclusives more feasible...but it would still be a XSS situation...
Have the rumors claimed if this will have a Docked mode at all?
DeltaPolarBear
Member
I doubt docking is what they want here. The entire point of docking is to combine two SKUs, If you want power then just get the console. Trying to dock it would be like trying to turn a motorcycle into a car; just buy a car if you want a car. In this case there is clearly two different sets of hardware for a reason. They are distinct design environments.
The way i see it, Sony has given up trying to push next gen. That they see the writing on the wall that PS6 is going to get a soft launch and that most people would be playing PS5 for years. Thus I doubt the handheld machine would even be marketed as a PS6; calling it a PS5 handheld would be simpler and more accurate.
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
I mean this MLiD rumor does state a docked mode with higher clocks.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Portal is a streaming device
Crazy right?! And it's still selling 2 million units a year and competing with the Steamdeck. The PS6 handheld can easily do 5 million units a year, IF it's priced right and can play "SOME" PS6 crossgen games.
bighugeguns
Member
We need a hero, we need a new PSP!
DeltaPolarBear
Member
...Which is just another word for PS5 games. Too much double speak for my liking. Just call a spade a spade. Not worth the headache to call it a PS6, Sony does not benefit from people getting mad later.
Sony learned the same lesson as Nintendo, no more splitting the market. Just have one unified software pipeline.
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MatrixReloaded101
Member
Because some people want a complete handheld, instead of the streaming on the PS portal.
They are trying to offer more ways for people to play their games without using the competitors handheld hardware (steam deck, Rog Ally).
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yall have GOT to stop doing this. I understand that you all may be disappointed with how GoY looks (even though it's beautiful and runs extremely well), but why do yall not believe Intergalactic will look great? The Decima engine and all it's updates at the engine level gave us Death Stranding 2. You don't believe Guerilla Games notices that and won't implement it into their next game?
The bolded is a great point.
I don't think they'll even put a number on this handheld. I totally agree with you with the issue with calling it a PS6 handheld. That would be HORRIBLE! Unless, they force every PS6 game to run on it. Which Sony has literally NEVER done when it comes to devs making games. They barely mandate anything.
They may just come up with a total different naming convention. Like....
- PS Connection
- PS Portable 2 (PSP2)
- PS Companion
- PS Switch (lol)
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DeltaPolarBear
Member
The gap in what games can do between generations is shrinking. Partly due to hardware but also partly due to excess development time. Sony can do what they can in making PS6 games, but 3rd parties can't be forced into it. What with AAA games taking 6 years, we will be lucky if 3rd parties even make PS6 games at launch. Money is also tight these days. People are willing to wait longer to upgrade. This is just how the world is now.
Making a PS5 handheld is actually a valid way to offer something new to the public who don't want a PS6 or don't feel the need to buy one yet.