[Digital Foundry] Metal Gear Solid Delta - PS5/ PS5 Pro Tech Review - A Beautiful UE5 Remake With Frame-Rate Issues

Topher said:
Yeah, feel like we would be having better discussions of Pro had Sony delivered with PSSR. Early adopter blues
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Thing is that (defending PSSR here a bit… sure FSR4 is luckily relatively close behind too :)):

a.) this game's resolution is a lot lower when they use PSSR and upscaling methods DLSS included do not perform super awesome when the native resolution is too low (which means a less sharp picture with some artefacts)

and

b.) In motion it cleans up the image and removes some attracts present in the base PS5 version presenting an ultimately greater image

Given point a.) is a dev's choice, point b.) is what PSSR can be judged on.

Also, if we had to choose, would we prioritise still images IQ over IQ while in motion which means while playing (this is not a static point and click adventure either)??? Sometimes devs f'it up, but in most cases even when the camera is static the image is not horrible either.
 
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Bojji said:
That's subjective.

Decima games don't have good lighting and shadowing. DS2 and FW both look cross gen, still very nice thanks to art, textures and models but cross gen for sure...

UE5 games can LOOK much better than them, but problem is in performance: this engine is still broken on fundamental level in some aspects and only current 5.6 version (and future ones) promise some big improvements in those aspects.

We have games that are much more modern than Decima and still run much better than UE5 - Avatar and Outlaws on Snowdrop engine.
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Forbidden West on PS5 looks insane even to this day. I'm not really seeing how it looks cross gen, other than lacking the usual buzzword "features" that this generation seems to be obsessed with. And we get an 1800p60 and a native 4k30 mode on top of that. Best of both worlds.

The problem with UE5 isn't just performance either. It's also heavily reliant on temporal upscaling/AA which blurs everything to shit and has a ton of artifacts. That isn't to say that TAA always looks bad, I've played games where it looks fine. But it just doesn't work when you have to render at such low resolutions to get decent performance.
 
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ShaiKhulud1989 said:
PC is in the toilet too for both (Mafia is in FUBAR state on some locations on my 4080), at least Pro is not riddled with traversal stutters and DLSS-enabled crashes.

UE5 can pound sand though.
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Usually, if UE5 game stutters, it happens on both PCs and consoles, so please don't pretend that the PS5 Pro console offers a better experience with UE5 games in any way.

As for "Mafia the old country", here's performance analysis on PC. The game runs great with high settings



Terra Ware used 4090, but on my 4080S and 7800X3D the game also ran very well (at least with custom settings). I did experience maybe one stutter when I was driving very fast but that's nothing compared to other UE5 games like Silent Hill 2, or ES Oblivion. I didn't notice any DLSS crashes. Maybe your PC has issues with cooling, but I also noticed that DLSS transformer model is very sensitive to OC stability and will crash if your OC is too high even though CNN model can run perfectly stable with the same clocks. I however wasnt using DLSS transformer in mafia, because it has serious problems with artefacts in this game. I was using an old CNN model, which still looked great.

My screenshots

1440p DLAA (native) 107fps, custom high settings (draw distance and textures to the max, small hit to the performance but big visual difference).


1440p-DLAA-high.jpg


1440p DLSS-Quality 136fps

1440p-DLSSQ-high.jpg


1440p DLSS-Quality + FG 215fps. The sensation of smoothness and precision when aiming is truly amazing with DLSS FG, almost as if you were playing at real 200 fps.

1440p-DLSSQ-FGx2-high.jpg


4K DLAA (native), 61fps

4-K-DLAA-high.jpg



4K DLSS-Quality 89fps (with FG 142fps)

4-K-DLSSQ-high.jpg


Framerate might dip 10-20fps sometimes compares to this testing locations but that's not a big deal when average framerate is so high. PS5Pro users can only dream about playing UE5 games with such good image quality and performance. Even 4K native with high settings on my PC are perfectly playable, especially with FGx2 on top of that.
 
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Gaiff said:
Still watching, but anyone else likes the yellow filter of the original?

Sd5BFkd.png


The game takes place in 1964 and I recall at the time of the release, I liked the color palette because it reminded me of an old film with worn out colors.
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Many developers in PS2 era used that orange filter and I liked it a lot, especially in GTA San Andreas or Vice City. Low-poly models and low-resolution textures blend much better with that orange atmosphere, which makes for a more appealing overall effect. I used to hate the PC version because Rockstar had removed the orange atmosphere and for many years I played the PS2 versions simply because of that orange atmosphere. Thankfully, modders have finally restored it. Even if MGS3 remake will change changed color grading modders on PC will probably also restore it.

wT8seVhDavEA0ciO.png


1.jpg



a1.jpg


a3.jpg
 
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Corporal.Hicks said:
Usually, if UE5 game stutters, it happens on both PCs and consoles, so please don't pretend that the PS5 Pro console offers a better experience with UE5 games.

As for "Mafia the old country", here's performance analysis on PC. The game runs great with high settings



Terra Ware used 4090, but on my RTX 4080 Super the game also ran very well (at least with custom settings). I did experience maybe one stutter when I was driving very fast but that's nothing compared to other UE5 games like Silent Hill 2, or ES Oblivion. I didn't notice any DLSS crashes. Maybe your PC has issues with cooling and I can also say that DLSS transformer model is very sensitive to OC stability and will crash if your OC is too high even though CNN model was stable. I however wasnt using DLSS transformer in mafia, because it has serious problems with artefacts in this game. I was using an old CNN model, which still looked great.

My screenshots

1440p DLAA (native) 107fps, custom high settings (draw distance and textures to the max, small hit to the performance but big visual difference).


1440p-DLAA-high.jpg


1440p DLSS-Quality 136fps

1440p-DLSSQ-high.jpg


1440p DLSS-Quality + FG 215fps. The sensation of smoothness and precision when aiming is truly amazing with DLSS FG, almost as if you were playing at real 200 fps.

1440p-DLSSQ-FGx2-high.jpg


4K DLSS-Quality 89fps (with FG 142fps)

4-K-DLSSQ-high.jpg


Framerate might dip 15-20fps sometimes but that's nothing when average framerate was already so high. PS5Pro users can only dream about playing UE5 games with such good image quality and performance.
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After Oblivion, I trust my eyes when playing more than screenshots. The amount of ghosting / trails, disocclusion artefacts and other artefacts when all their temporal accumulation trickery inevitably had its hiccups (let alone framepacing issues) that I really do not get how some people do not see or in some cases I am thinking they pretend not to is incredible (a lot of it was in The Matrix demo too).
 
Panajev2001a said:
After Oblivion, I trust my eyes when playing more than screenshots. The amount of ghosting / trails, disocclusion artefacts and other artefacts when all their temporal accumulation trickery inevitably had its hiccups (let alone framepacing issues) that I really do not get how some people do not see or in some cases I am thinking they pretend not to is incredible (a lot of it was in The Matrix demo too).
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I hate all this freaking upscale shit we are forced to see now.
We had RDR2 on an XboxOneX at freaking native 4k. Now we have to hope to see native 1080p... its like wtf is going on?
 
DenchDeckard said:
He is right. The dev should allow owners of the Pro to choose what they want.

Just give me a solid 60FPS with the bells and whistles the title can handle to achieve that. Id happily take the PS5 performance mode at a locked 60 with some minor tweaks over this mess.
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He's right but Alex can mostly f* off because I know why he's saying the things he's saying. He never would say "what a waste of $3000" when games like Forza Motorsport set a 60fps cap, Starfield, or Wolfenstein. He's doing it for this though as if it's the only game it plays because it's Alex and PS.
 
TGO said:
I'd say probably on things close up, because of the nature of upscaling but...
sjU2Glqo8D6Z9RFU.jpg
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In your image, look at the amount of artifacts it generates to make it sharper.

In motion, things change. PRO besides having better sharpness, it also eliminates the artifacts... which, in my opinion, is the most horrible thing. This happens all the time in the game.



all the scenes below are moving scenes ( ps5 pro right side)


vv373jYU188dpoId.jpg


MWUuwvXrFGubGO0K.jpg
xgnlnG0pwlUTY9lt.jpg



PtHxhI5eTltRSfn8.jpg
 
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Diego Brasil said:
In your image, look at the amount of artifacts it generates to make it sharper.

In motion, things change. PRO besides having better sharpness, it also eliminates the artifacts... which, in my opinion, is the most horrible thing. This happens all the time in the game.



all the scenes below are moving scenes ( ps5 pro right side)


vv373jYU188dpoId.jpg


MWUuwvXrFGubGO0K.jpg
xgnlnG0pwlUTY9lt.jpg



PtHxhI5eTltRSfn8.jpg
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I do not get gamers screaming about high framerates and getting upset about PSSR doing its job better during motion / gameplay than when the camera is still and nobody is playing…
 
Panajev2001a said:
I do not get gamers screaming about high framerates and getting upset about PSSR doing its job better during motion / gameplay than when the camera is still and nobody is playing…
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Thanks DF to have introduct such theorem. The "tech expert" thinks it's better to have more stable AA in still than a sharper picture in motion. The idiocy of such opinion is unbelivable. I can bet whatever you want if it was the reverse they would have claimed the contrary. I remind when they deeply criticized Quincux AA on ps3 which offered exactly what they want now from PSSR but they preferred 2XMSAA (more shimmering and aliased) because it was sharper. Ah.
 
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adamsapple said:
Yeah but it shouldn't be the case regardless.

Not to mention all the above happens with Pro running 7, 8 FPS worse in the outdoor areas. And the indoor areas, where it runs better on the Pro, that's where the PSSR coverage is poor with the shimmering and flickering.


C8harDDkSGvyOxxF.png
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Shimmering also occurs on the PS5, but it's stronger on the Pro, but only in specific scenes, as he showed in that environment. There are several other scenes in the video that are also indoors where you don't see shimmering on the Pro.

Unlike motion artifacts, they're always with you in the game.

Therefore, in terms of image quality, overall, the Pro is sharper in motion and eliminates these grotesque artifacts.

both images are in motion below

z2qsoUNC3OBmnpZw.gif
 
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Traxtech said:
This is why it makes me sad the fox engine died
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It died for good I think. Kojima is now working with decima and the results are quiet spectacular. DS2 is honestly the best looking game I've seen so far. But yeah, I also liked the fox engine.
 
Karim said:
Thanks DF to have introduct such theorem. The "tech expert" thinks it's better to have more stable AA in still than a sharper picture in motion. The idiocy of such opinion is unbelivable. I can bet whatever you want if it was the reverse they would have claimed the contrary. I remind when they deeply criticized Quincux AA on ps3 which offered exactly what they want now from PSSR but they preferred 2XMSAA (more shimmering and aliased) because it was sharper. Ah.
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Exactly, besides comparing the still image... the image was sharper... but full of artifacts... lol

Motion artifacts are present all the time in the video... unlike shimmering, which occurs in some specific indoor scenes, where the video itself has some indoor scenes that the pro doesn't have shimmering.

Motion artifacts are present all the time

Look at this scene... move the camera to the side... look how the PS5 looks compared to the Pro (the problem is performance... unfortunately)

nbcapWsvhhGIxPYp.gif


pTy2wz9iN9etGwes.jpg
 
Spiral1407 said:
Forbidden West on PS5 looks insane even to this day. I'm not really seeing how it looks cross gen, other than lacking the usual buzzword "features" that this generation seems to be obsessed with. And we get an 1800p60 and a native 4k30 mode on top of that. Best of both worlds.

The problem with UE5 isn't just performance either. It's also heavily reliant on temporal upscaling/AA which blurs everything to shit and has a ton of artifacts. That isn't to say that TAA always looks bad, I've played games where it looks fine. But it just doesn't work when you have to render at such low resolutions to get decent performance.
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Forbidden West looked LIKE SHIT in performance mode for the first few months, it was almost unplayable. That 1800 figure is after some CB fuckery, they fixed it after a few months but it was a mess at launch - and I had to complete it like that.

How is is not cross gen when it literally looks 80% the same on PS4 consoles?

dvxtCzvE8rBCpPmS.jpg
 
No excuses for that level of performance.

The scenes aren't that complicated so it has to come down to how the geometry is constructed and rendered. Most likely not using nanite properly to virtualize the foliage and/or excessive use of overdraw for scene effects rather than replicating the visuals using a less "brute force" method.

Its not catastrophic as the game was designed originally to be played at 30fps and below, but its not good either as what's on screen in no way justifies that heavy a demand on the hardware.
 
Bojji said:
Forbidden West looked LIKE SHIT in performance mode for the first few months, it was almost unplayable. That 1800 figure is after some CB fuckery, they fixed it after a few months but it was a mess at launch - and I had to complete it like that.

How is is not cross gen when it literally looks 80% the same on PS4 consoles?

dvxtCzvE8rBCpPmS.jpg
Click to expand...




It depends on the scene, I would say it's more...


qicZDXP06l5MNusa.jpg


FSDDAC2kcu6vbsgN.jpg
 
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D

RTX 4060

DLSS Performance 1440p (720p internal resolution)

Medium Preset


with a very good processor.. and rtx with dlss in performance... still in the middle... fps falling a lot below 60fps
QPmyxu6Ae44x3LJx.jpg
 
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Diego Brasil said:
It depends on the scene, I would say it's more...


qicZDXP06l5MNusa.jpg


FSDDAC2kcu6vbsgN.jpg
Click to expand...

Hero lighting in PS5 version, it looks good but it's VERY unralistic and PS5 version looks even more fake here. Aloy is constantly lit by some light source that isn't in the environment.

Diego Brasil said:
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D

RTX 4060

DLSS Performance 1440p (720p internal resolution)

Medium Preset


with a very good processor.. and rtx with dlss in performance... still in the middle... fps falling a lot below 60fps
QPmyxu6Ae44x3LJx.jpg
Click to expand...

With that GPU usage it still looks GPU limited, game is just that heavy on the GPU.

4060 is also ~base PS5 power (but can be worse thanks to vram).
 
Diego Brasil said:
Exactly, besides comparing the still image... the image was sharper... but full of artifacts... lol

Motion artifacts are present all the time in the video... unlike shimmering, which occurs in some specific indoor scenes, where the video itself has some indoor scenes that the pro doesn't have shimmering.

Motion artifacts are present all the time

Look at this scene... move the camera to the side... look how the PS5 looks compared to the Pro (the problem is performance... unfortunately)

nbcapWsvhhGIxPYp.gif


pTy2wz9iN9etGwes.jpg
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Good Lord lol. I give them that, in quality mode ps5 base sometimes is sharper (not all the time) but the artifacts can be really atrocious, in motion even worse. It seems almost to see just a simple sharpening filter than an upscaler on base ps5.
 
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Diego Brasil said:
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D

RTX 4060

DLSS Performance 1440p (720p internal resolution)

Medium Preset


with a very good processor.. and rtx with dlss in performance... still in the middle... fps falling a lot below 60fps
QPmyxu6Ae44x3LJx.jpg
Click to expand...
Is this the 16GB or 8GB model?
 
Diego Brasil said:
all the scenes below are moving scenes ( ps5 pro right side)


PtHxhI5eTltRSfn8.jpg
Click to expand...



FYI, this one is not 'movement', it's occlusion artifacts on how quickly something behind moving objects (in this case Snake's hands) are resolved.

fiNG6WCcwk4DOtDX.png





The base console is just slower to resolve it.

You can see it starting to resolve in a few frames before DF 'reserves' the footage.


W8lmfIY.gif
 
Looks like we can achieve stable 1440p 60 on medium settings with dlss4 put on performance while using rtx 5060(and very fast cpu but doesnt look like game is cpu bound for 60fps)


For comparision thats how rtx 5060 stacks vs other pc desktop gpu's:
www.techpowerup.com

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5060 Specs

NVIDIA GB206, 2497 MHz, 3840 Cores, 120 TMUs, 48 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR7, 1750 MHz, 128 bit
www.techpowerup.com www.techpowerup.com
750$ streetprice highend(but not top) 5070ti is 91% faster on avg for example :D
 
adamsapple said:
FYI, this one is not 'movement', it's occlusion artifacts on how quickly something behind moving objects (in this case Snake's hands) are resolved.

fiNG6WCcwk4DOtDX.png





The base console is just slower to resolve it.

You can see it starting to resolve in a few frames before DF 'reserves' the footage.


W8lmfIY.gif
Click to expand...
It's outstanding how forgivable are any others upscaler issues but only shimmering/flickering are become the only real nightmare for the IQ (which are quite commons in any TAA used for the games). I mean see the picture in motion resolve slowly the reconstruction isn't it exactly a minor issues especially because you have to move to play the game. And again IQ is awful to watch on ps5 base looking to this DF analysis, seems to look an youtube video bad compressed. Never seen so many artifacts as in this game, the fuck.
 
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Karim said:
It's outstanding how forgivable are any others upscaler issues but just shimmering/flickering are become the only real nightmare for the IQ. I mean see the picture in motion resolve slowly the reconstruction isn't it exactly a minor issues especially because you have to move to play the game. And again IQ is awful to watch on ps5 base looking to this DF analysis, seems an youtube video bad compressed. Never seen so many artifacts as in this game, the fuck.
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If DF were being 'forgivable', they wouldn't highlight these PSSR advantages in the video. 🤷‍♂️

It is what it is, PSSR should not be behind in any case. Some developers are at least compensating for it by letting the players disable it in-game.

These IQ things, however, aren't really that obvious without 400% zooms, the worse performance is the much bigger issue. The Pro console should not be 15~% or so behind the base console in their respective 60fps tests.



-

Corporal.Hicks Corporal.Hicks

You should make a separate topic for Mafia's PC performance, DF aren't covering it and there seems to be a lot of people asking how it works.

The info you've posted here would do better in a topic of its own so more people can see it.
 
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adamsapple said:
If DF were being 'forgivable', they wouldn't highlight these PSSR advantages in the video. 🤷‍♂️

It is what it is, PSSR should not be behind in any case. Some developers are at least compensating for it by letting the players disable it in-game.

These IQ things, however, aren't really that obvious without 400% zooms, the worse performance is the much bigger issue. The Pro console should not be 15~% or so behind the base console in their respective 60fps tests.
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Dude they are DF not John Carmack. Highlight flaws is a thing, exacerbate their impact in the IQ is...opinable. I mean look how horrible is IQ in motion on base ps5. Hearing them seems is fine to have it because it's sharper in still but for good Lord that shimmering/flickering in the 5% of the screen zooming 4x, how can people tolerate it on PS5pro. Lol. That's a buffoonery. I invite you to find any videos of DF where there aren't any biasis about PSSR even when it's undoubtful better. They are clearly preconcived about it and they seems far away to ever change such opinion. It's the new variable frequencies argument for them.
 
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Karim said:
I invite you to find any videos of DF where there aren't any biasis about PSSR even when it's undoubtful better.em.
Click to expand...

Karim said:
Very smart. It's not even an analysis lol isn't it a sort of review. Show me some analysis of Tom or Oliver without biasis. Go on.
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Come On What GIF by MOODMAN




I've never seen traversal stutter in a human before but this is the closest.

Have fun bro, I'm gonna keep it limited in this thread now, lol.
 
adamsapple said:
Come On What GIF by MOODMAN




I've never seen traversal stutter in a human before but this is the closest.

Have fun bro, I'm gonna keep it limited in this thread now, lol.
Click to expand...
I simply said DF have biasis for the PSSR for awhile and we have to discern their personal opinion to what it's a real tech data. But sure act as you are the smartest one of the forum as always.
Time to use the ignore list it seems.
 
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sncvsrtoip said:
Mafia now this. Pro is a disaster. And ps6 with 160w 160b doesnt seems to be much faster in raster. Time to move to pc ;d In case of Mgs Delta easy fix for pro: remove pssr, increase internal res and add 40fps cap toggle but Konami will do nothing Im quite sure.
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This is such a stupid take. It's not the fault of the hardware, it's the absolute shite that is UE5. Almost every UE5 game displays traversal stutters and poor performance.

I'm extremely confident that the PC version will be very similar regardless of hardware... Or worse..
 
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