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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza

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You shouln't let out the part where Israel is bullying palistinensi and christians and taking their land with force.
Its a guy poking a dog until he bites back and then tries to shoot the dog because he's bitten him.

Ok, lets do your analogy. Now you don't let out the part where 5 states full of wolf packs attack the new family in (the fairly deserted) town to rip them apart. Surprisingly for everyone the wolfs lost the battle and lost some territory in the process. A couple of years later the wolfs attack again to get rid of the new guys. Surprisingly they lost again! And again they lose territory. No one wants to shoot the dog, but he won't stop biting.
Gemüsepizza;120257497 said:
There was only one case of "human shield" reported: The Israel Air Force targeted the apartment building of a high-ranking hamas member. His family and neighbours decided to get on the roof to prevent an attack (which I wouldn't even call a traditional human shield, because they did this voluntarily). The Air Force ignored them and dropped a bomb on the house. 7 people died, 21 were injured. The other victims are probably just the usual collateral damage which occurs when you drop a 500kg bomb on any target in such a densely populated area. But of course for the IDF, every dead civilian was a "human shield".



I doubt so many rockets would have been fired if the Israeli government hadn't resorted to such brutal methods during their search.

Ah right, the search. And you think Hamas didn't plan for exactly this to happen when they abducted them? What a great excuse for new rockets. Finally new dead children for the cameras. It's sick.
 
Ah right, the search. And you think Hamas didn't plan for exactly this to happen when they abducted them? What a great excuse for new rockets. Finally new dead children for the cameras. It's sick.

When "they" planned it? We don't even know exactly who the fuck kidnapped these boys. Which we would, if there was a correct criminal investigation and not a military raid. Yet you are claiming this and the whole search operation was some kind of evil mastermind plan of the Hamas leadership. I think you are overestimating the Hamas just a little bit here. And I think you don't know that those Palestinian groups aren't organized like a state, where there is a leadership and everyone does what they say. There are countless smaller groups which operate independently and there is a lot of chaos. Which btw. is one of the goals of Israels government. They don't want a unified Palestinian government, they want chaos.
 
Gemüsepizza;120262126 said:
When "they" planned it? We don't even know exactly who the fuck kidnapped these boys. Which we would, if there was a correct criminal investigation and not a military raid. Yet you are claiming this and the whole search operation was some kind of evil mastermind plan of the Hamas leadership. I think you are overestimating the Hamas just a little bit here.

So where are the culprits? The murders of the burned guy are already caught as promised. Seems no one of hamas is interested in shedding some light into this. I wonder why. Its not really a mastermind plan. Unfortunately is business as usual there for a couple of decades now. I think you underestimate the cabalities of a terroristic organisation.
 
So why didn't the Israeli government send their police to investigate instead of the army? Or are you saying the Palestinians are now responsible for the investigation? Who were denied a proper state and police force from the Israeli government?
 

Codeblue

Member
Didn't they find traces of Polonium in Arafat's exhumed body as well? Wouldn't be surprised if the Great Democracy engaged in clandestine operations, just like their big brother US.

Like that time they used fraudulent Eurpoean passports to get into Dubai and assassinate a Hamas official?
 
Gemüsepizza;120263656 said:
So why didn't the Israeli government send their police to investigate instead of the army? Or are you saying the Palestinians are now responsible for the investigation? Who where denied a proper state and police force from the Israeli government?

Send police to an area where people are firing fucking rockets at you? This would be suicide. Israeli police investigating, if not killed directly, i am sure the cooperation would be great. Of course the Palestinians are responsible for the investigation. At least offer some support - but nothing. Hamas is under pressure. They are losing ground among the own population and a lot of arab countrys cut the aid significantly in the last months. So what can they do? Actually negotiate? Nah.. force a new conflict and gather media attention with horrific pictures, some of them true, some of them stock photografie as usual. Sad thing is it works. It always works.
 

zeroOman

Member
Send police to an area where people are firing fucking rockets at you? This would be suicide. Israeli police investigating, if not killed directly, i am sure the cooperation would be great. Of course the Palestinians are responsible for the investigation. At least offer some support - but nothing. Hamas is under pressure. They are losing ground among the own population and a lot of arab countrys cut the aid significantly in the last months. So what can they do? Actually negotiate? Nah.. force a new conflict and gather media attention with horrific pictures, some of them true, some of them stock photografie as usual. Sad thing is it works. It always works.

But the kidnapping happen in west bank not Gaza right?
 
Send police to an area where people are firing fucking rockets at you? This would be suicide. Israeli police investigating, if not killed directly, i am sure the cooperation would be great. Of course the Palestinians are responsible for the investigation. At least offer some support - but nothing. Hamas is under pressure. They are losing ground among the own population and a lot of arab countrys cut the aid significantly in the last months. So what can they do? Actually negotiate? Nah.. force a new conflict and gather media attention with horrific pictures, some of them true, some of them stock photografie as usual. Sad thing is it works. It always works.

I said this on the last page, but what the fuck does Hamas have to negotiate with? Look at the West Bank, no one there is firing rockets and what's happening to them? Their land is being stolen illegally and they continue to be under crushing occupation. Im not condoning rocket attacks, but showing you how powerless the Palestinians are in this situation.
 
Gemüsepizza;120245041 said:
Oh you are giving me the benefit of doubt? How generous of you. It's fucking obvious that I am criticising the proportionality of their response. When zero Israelis have been killed or injured, is it right to drop 400 tons of explosives on a densely populated city and kill over 50 people, among them innocent children? Is it justified? Probably only if you are an evil right-winger. Nobody denies that Israel has a right for self-defense. But not like this. Not by butchering those people.

The proportionality of their response you're judging only by the fact that there are no Israeli causalities. You've not trying to highlight incorrect targets, indiscriminate attacks, or other war crimes (that is what the goldstone report, its problems notwithstanding, did). There's are tough questions on how to respond but you're creating a scoreboard where 50 > 0 and thus the response is disproportionate.

And yes, when an army is based in an area the size of Manhattan and launching rockets at your civilians in that area it is right to target them If you to the best of your ability try to limit the damage. The Geneva conventions agree with this:

“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

This is where the questions should be. No one wants to see these people dead. No one. Not even the evil caricature you draw of Israel. But a nation isn't going to sit and let its people be bombed. And please don't infer that people don't care. Because they do. I'm literally at this moment talking to a friend who is in Gaza. These conflicts suck and tear people apart. How do I balance my friend being 300 meters from being killed** with my friends being killed by rocket fire in their home in Be'ersheva?

Hamas and the suicide bombers back in 2003 strategy is the thing that harms the Palestinians the most IMO. It justifies the most revanchist of the Israeli hard liners. And it erases most of the great non-violent work so many palestinians and Israelis have done and are doing.

In the meantime Arafat used the 15 or 19 or whatever the right number of groups was to play each off against the other, a tactic he perfected in Fakahani, and which is patently stupid so far as the general good is concerned. He never really reined in Hamas and Islamic Jihad which suited Israel perfectly: it would have a ready- made excuse to use the so-called martyr's (mindless) suicide bombings to further diminish and punish the whole people. If there is one thing along with Arafat's ruinous regime that has done us more harm as a cause it is this calamitous policy of killing Israeli civilians, which further proves to the world that we are indeed terrorists and an immoral movement. For what gain no one has been able to say.
.

-Edward Said.

To many times people who care about the Palestinians have this image where Israel is the clear aggressor in the totality of the conflict. Without commenting on the right or wrongness of that its what is used as a metric. So everything get's filtered through that. Every aggression is filter through that. So even when someone on the Palestinian side kills innocents it isn't judged as an individual action but part of the totality . So its excused. Too often the reverse is true on the Israeli side. The totality of the domination of Palestinians is forgotten and individual cruel crimes are highlighted and used as justification

I think that is the biggest issue preventing peace. each crime begets other crimes which get added to a never ending list of crimes to which no one can ever 'forget' or let go 'in vain'

**
Palestinians report that one man was killed and eight wounded when a car carrying reporters was attacked in Gaza City. The man, Hamdi Shahab (49) was an employee of a 'Media 24,' a local media agency. Three of the wounded are in serious condition. (Shirley Seidler, Jack Khouri)

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.603913
 

Kimawolf

Member
What will it take for the world to get rid of the Jewish guilt and call it like it is? In America even mentioning Israel as possibly being wrong will get you shouted down from any discussions. Our politics are so chicken shit scared they will never say anything in public. They need to admit that Israel is a terrorist state oppressing a group of people and systematically wiping them out and taking their land.

All while the west sits back and fiddles its thumbs, scared to say anything for fear of being called antisemitic. It's ridiculous and I have to believe that sooner or later, people will see Israel for what they are, terrorist thugs who happen to be really well armed.

No matter how many "defensive" and "justice" names they give their operations it doesn't hide what they really are; aggressive actions to take over another country with force.
 

JordanN

Banned
What will it take for the world to get rid of the Jewish guilt and call it like it is? In America even mentioning Israel as possibly being wrong will get you shouted down from any discussions. Our politics are so chicken shit scared they will never say anything in public. They need to admit that Israel is a terrorist state oppressing a group of people and systematically wiping them out and taking their land.

Yet the other day, I was looking up Palestinian demographics and there are more Palestinians on earth than ever.
 
What will it take for the world to get rid of the Jewish guilt and call it like it is? In America even mentioning Israel as possibly being wrong will get you shouted down from any discussions. Our politics are so chicken shit scared they will never say anything in public. They need to admit that Israel is a terrorist state oppressing a group of people and systematically wiping them out and taking their land. .

The whole paragraph reads just like standard antisemtic texts. "why can't people openly talk about the jews and how evil they are"

Criticism about Israel isn't suppressed.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-ob...ng-palestinians-sovereignty-security-dignity/
In an unusually harsh major foreign policy address, Philip Gordon, a special assistant to US President Barack Obama and the White House coordinator for the Middle East, appealed to Israeli and Palestinian leaders to make the compromises needed to reach a permanent peace agreement.
“Israel confronts an undeniable reality: It cannot maintain military control of another people indefinitely. Doing so is not only wrong but a recipe for resentment and recurring instability,” Gordon said. “It will embolden extremists on both sides, tear at Israel’s democratic fabric and feed mutual dehumanization.”

Specifically, Gordon went on: “How will Israel remain democratic and Jewish if it attempts to govern the millions of Palestinian Arabs who live in the West Bank? How will it have peace if it’s unwilling to delineate a border, end the occupation and allow for Palestinian sovereignty, security and dignity? How will we prevent other states from supporting Palestinian efforts in international bodies, if Israel is not seen as committed to peace?”

Its not antisemitic to criticize israel when you criticize it based on its real actions but it is antisemitic when you talk about "jews" or rely on antisemetic themes about jews like 'war mongering' 'secretly planing something' 'untrustworthy' 'greedy' 'genocidal' 'nazis'

Didnt this exact situation happen last year between israel and hamas

November 2012 I believe
 

Kimawolf

Member
The whole paragraph reads just like standard antisemtic texts. "why can't people openly talk about the jews and how evil they are"

Criticism about Israel isn't suppressed.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-ob...ng-palestinians-sovereignty-security-dignity/






Its not antisemitic to criticize israel when you criticize it based on its real actions but it is antisemitic when you talk about "jews" or rely on antisemetic themes about jews like 'war mongering' 'secretly planing something' 'untrustworthy' 'greedy' 'genocidal' 'nazis'



November 2012 I believe

Wow don't put words in my mouth, I never said Jews were anything. I never said they were secretly planning anything. I said Israel is a terrorist state in my opinion as they are engaging in the very thing we condemn other countries for doing. So I resent the fact you would use the phrase antisemite with any statement I made because i am certainly not that. That would say I have a issue with Jewish people, as opposed to Israel, who is all too happy to bring up how they are always fighting to survive for peace. Did you not read the statements pages back where there were quotes with statements about weapons of mass destruction, skies of ash and never be defeated again? Those statements are meant to refer to the holocaust as I am sure you know. So how should I take those statements?

You can't deny what is currently going on, look at the situation RIGHT NOW. If this was Russia everyone would go nuts, if it was happening in Africa no one would even care. But people will bend over backwards (as we've seen in this thread) to justify what's going on now without acknowledging what led up to this point. And it wasn't just the Palestinian terror groups either btw who began this.

You know what I would like to happen? For actual peace to happen, and with Israel being the obviously far more powerful of the two with half the modern world's backing, it's in their power to make it happen, but they refuse too as obvious by their continual building of settlements.

But I think i'll stay out of this discussion for now on though.
 
Insinuating that children casualties does not happen in IAF airstrikes ?

Or that somehow a full on propaganda machine (i.e pallywood, if you know that term) is in function ?

Of course not. There are dying way too many children in this conflict. Even a single dead child is one dead child too many. But i blame those who calculate their death as a useful propaganda.

Those pictures make me angry. I thought there where so much dead children last night? Why use these old pictures then under false premise? Why relabel them to victims of whatever enemy you are fighting right now? And yes, i know Pallywood. I even linked to a documentary about it on the last page. The first thing that dies in a conflict like this is the truth. What i don´t understand are the people embracing every blatant lie just to accept an easy answer of some "conspiracies" or "genocides".
 

Chichikov

Member
Ah right, the search. And you think Hamas didn't plan for exactly this to happen when they abducted them? What a great excuse for new rockets. Finally new dead children for the cameras. It's sick.
There isn't evidence for any of this.
Fuck, there isn't even hard evidence that this was planned by Hamas leadership.
Israel used the pretense of those murders for widespread escalation in the west bank and Gaza, and it was mostly done for internal political reasons.
The IDF wants increase in its budget (which it got) and Netanyahu want people to stop talking about how his wife stole lawn furniture.

You act like Hamas needs an excuse to fire rockets, when it wants to escalate, it makes like Nike and just do it.
 
There isn't evidence for any of this.
Fuck, there isn't even hard evidence that this was planned by Hamas leadership.
Israel used the pretense of those murders for widespread escalation in the west bank and Gaza, and it was mostly done for internal political reasons.
The IDF wants increase in its budget (which it got) and Netanyahu want people to stop talking about how his wife stole lawn furniture.

You act like Hamas needs an excuse to fire rockets, when it wants to escalate, it makes like Nike and just do it.
You dismiss conspiracies with other conspiracies.
 
I thought there where so much dead children last night? Why use these old pictures then under false premise? Why relabel them to victims of whatever enemy you are fighting right now?

I have no idea. Maybe a simlple mistake. Or being purposefully misleading, but why be misleading when the truth is that children are dying in Gaza right now.

Personally I believe it's because of the advent of modern social media. Everything just get's liked, shared or tweeted in a second without an inch of reseach of anything behind the picture.

I could, you could, anyone could go get a picture of a dead man in Iraq and post it on Facebook and say it's from Gaza and most likely get some shares. I don't think it's an agenda just stupid people.

OT: Here is quite an disheartening video showing anti-arab sentiment in Israel. Makes me sad that the young pouple especially are very harsh too. A lot of nice people too though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb_vXaVKaMM
 
There isn't evidence for any of this.
Fuck, there isn't even hard evidence that this was planned by Hamas leadership.
Israel used the pretense of those murders for widespread escalation in the west bank and Gaza, and it was mostly done for internal political reasons.
The IDF wants increase in its budget (which it got) and Netanyahu want people to stop talking about how his wife stole lawn furniture.

You act like Hamas needs an excuse to fire rockets, when it wants to escalate, it makes like Nike and just do it.

So you think lawn furniture is a more believable reasoning to kill people than Hamas using Israeli countermeasures after an abduction as a moral scapegoat for some time in the media. Ok.
 

Chichikov

Member
You dismiss conspiracies with other conspiracies.
I'm obviously embellishing a bit, but that escalation is done for political reasons (like most everything Netanyahu does).
Those murders changed nothing, they have no real connection to Gaza, Israel wants to keep Gaza politically isolated from the west bank and Netanyahu is struggling politically right now and nothing boost his popularity like a bit of a war.

As to the IDF and its budget, do some reading about it, it's hardly a conspiracy theory, that shit is fucking comical.
So you think lawn furniture is a more believable reasoning to kill people than Hamas using Israeli countermeasures after an abduction as a moral scapegoat for some time in the media. Ok.
When the Hamas wants to escalate, it fires rockets on Tel Aviv.
They have no real reason to believe that murders in the west bank will lead to Israeli attacks on Gaza, it has not happened in the past.
And again, there is no evidence these murders were centrally planned by the Hamas leadership in Gaza.
 
This hatred seems to be on both sides as evident of that Kurd getting a beat down with pipes in his street for supporting Israel. Though the hate is warranted in some cases it doesn't make it less sad.

Yeah like I would be straight up lying if I didn't say that you could get alot of the same statements if you visited Gaza or Arabs worldwide and asked them about their opinion of Israel.

There is actually an seperate survey article on the video going with it.

Here is a quote:

Racism highest in Jerusalem

In trying to answer the question of whether anti-Arab sentiment is a mainstream phenomenon among Israelis, we looked at all of the answers and divided the data into three categories: not anti-Arab; mildly anti-Arab; and strongly anti-Arab. Once again, we allowed for the possibility that a person might exhibit animosity towards Palestinians without being anti-Arab and we did not put people into one of the anti-Arab columns simply because he or she expressed right-wing political views. So, for example, if the only evidence in an interview of anti-Arab sentiment was that the respondent said that equal rights for Arabs are conditional upon equal responsibilities, we did not put them in an anti-Arab column. However, if a respondent stated that they wouldn’t live next door to an Arab, this was sufficient to push him or her into the mildly anti-Arab column. To qualify for the strongly anti-Arab category, a respondent needed to exhibit anti-Arab sentiment in two or more answers.

Our results showed that 46 percent of our respondents were either mildly or strongly anti-Arab. When we broke these numbers down according to city, there were obvious regional differences. Jerusalem was by far the most anti-Arab of the five cities we visited, with 58 percent exhibiting some level of anti-Arab sentiment, while Haifa was the least with 32 percent. Interestingly, after Jerusalem, Tel Aviv was the city with the most anti-Arab sentiment (49 percent).

The data we gathered substantiates the idea that anti-Arab sentiment is a mainstream phenomenon in Israel. Almost half of all the Jewish Israelis we spoke to exhibited some level of anti-Arab sentiment. The single most disturbing trend that emerged was the correlation between youth and strong anti-Arab sentiment. We also learned that support for the classic two-state solution along the 1967 lines was very low among the people we spoke to. This data point was reinforced by the strong support that we saw for the settlers. Given our leading question, the fact that less than a third of respondents were willing to characterize the settlers as an impediment to peace, is further evidence that the two-state solution, as it is currently being proposed by the international community, is decidedly unpopular in Israel.

Despite the lack of knowledge about the one-state solution idea, some respondents appeared willing to consider it. Once this solution was explained to them, 22 percent preferred it and around 6 percent did not object to it. Finally, when we asked Jewish Israelis to choose between the Jewish character of the state and the democratic character, 36 percent opted for the latter. All of these results must be taken with a grain of salt.

We can report anecdotally that many of the people who refused to be interviewed told us that they wouldn’t participate, because they felt that we were part of the “leftist media.” For these reasons, we feel that it is likely, if anything, that our data underestimates the actual amount of anti-Arab sentiment in Israel.

Jerusalem was the city with highest anti-arab sentiments and Haifa the least. Is Haifa a city where arabs and jews interact with each other daily ?

EDIT: And do you possibly have a link for an article on that beating of the Kurd guy ?
 

Sharpeye

Member
Jerusalem was the city with highest anti-arab sentiments and Haifa the least. Is Haifa a city where arabs and jews interact with each other daily ?

EDIT: And do you possibly have a link for an article on that beating of the Kurd guy ?
Here you go
http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2014/7/state8180.htm
There was a thread on it too.

Also thanks for these links and information, You're helpful when it comes to these events.
 
Thanks for the link.

Yeah just read through it. It seems like the Kurds and Israelis are becoming good friends since Netanyahu supports the foundation of a kurdish sovereign state and whatnot.

In the Arab/Muslim world support/cooperation with Israel is seen as the ultimate betrayal. The flag of Israel also has some very negative connotations with it. Might be some of the reasons for the attack.
 
Israel will never annex anything. They cant afford to give rights to the people they have treated like shit for so long. Israel's only option is to continue being shitheads until they wipe out the Palestinians

Wait...this is coming from you? I thought your views were more in line with Israel's on the conflict. Unless I'm mistaking you with someone else which I doubt.
 
Yes.
Haifa is generally a moderate and left leaning city.
Jerusalem is a racist cesspool of religious intolerance.

You can really tell this. Every other city was so welcoming. Went to Jerusalem there was a racist/nationalist rally party with DJ's and everything
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
I said this on the last page, but what the fuck does Hamas have to negotiate with? Look at the West Bank, no one there is firing rockets and what's happening to them? Their land is being stolen illegally and they continue to be under crushing occupation. Im not condoning rocket attacks, but showing you how powerless the Palestinians are in this situation.

This is a very good point. What exactly has Fatah gained from peace with Israel? All they've received from Israel in response is expanded settlements, continuous Israeli military presence within the West Bank, a massive unwanted wall within the West Bank, Palestinians having their legally owned land freely stolen, unreasonable Israeli demands in negotiations. To me, peace with Israel sure seems like a shitty deal for Fatah.

Israel holds all the cards in this conflict. If they wanted to, they can have peace tomorrow. But peace is obviously not in the interest of Israeli nationalists. If there was peace, how would they be able to steal more Palestinian land under the guise of "self defence"?
 
I'm obviously embellishing a bit, but that escalation is done for political reasons (like most everything Netanyahu does).
Those murders changed nothing, they have no real connection to Gaza, Israel wants to keep Gaza politically isolated from the west bank and Netanyahu is struggling politically right now and nothing boost his popularity like a bit of a war.

As to the IDF and its budget, do some reading about it, it's hardly a conspiracy theory, that shit is fucking comical.

Everything can be described as done for 'political reasons.' Bibi can pretty much launch an escalation at anytime if he so wanted. He doesn't. The politics narrative drives a very misleading and stereotypical image which isn't really backed up with any substance. Its all driven by preestablished ideas. Its the same stuff the right wing in the US pulls with everything Obama does. somehow these political nemesis at both times bumbling and super savvy (he's politically stumbling and not popular and not able to control his government while at the same time able to hide the fact he knew about a murder to launch a attack of gaza to help him politically because he's a master politician?).

There is something to be said about distraction as a political technique but it needs facts to back it up not insinuations (the case that 2012 was political is stronger since elections were upcoming but even then the Israel public voted mostly on economics). the fact that Israel doesn't want the reconciliation government is well known and I think that's the strongest case you got to claim this is political but even then the link is weak.

And I think your jumping a lot saying the Gaza escalations is directly tied to the murders and revenge murder. they're driven by the rockets. last weeks harassment in the west bank was driven by those murders not this.

and IDF budget things. every person in the world thinks the military wants a bigger budget and hypes threats. its nothing special with israel and I don't think it causes a special dynamic that's unique there (besides the already inflated budget because of 60 years of conflict, relative to this status quo its normal)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PsoC9EAkba8

Not from this conflict but does show some of the contempt that some IDF soldiers have towards the Palestinians.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xEmQVxfgIzw

Another not so positive moment. I can imagine being at the end of that gun could be scary.

What is the purpose of this? This is why the Palestinian cause is in such decrepit shape. I say this in the kindest way but you don't empower and help yourself with a pity party. You open yourself to people posting imagines of terrorists on the Palestinian side and drawing conclusions about the entirety of the statehood movement. It becomes the scorecard argument.

The Palestinians aren't going to get a savior to save them. They're gonna need to build themselves up take charge and present a vision that's powerful persuasive and realistic. No independence movement has ever been successful without doing this

- Israel presented an Image of a jewish state living with and along side arabs (obviously the war screwed this up). the world signed up for it
- India presented a united image of a subcontinental state with a rich history and thousands of cultures seeking to break free from colonialism and build itself up as a democracy.
- South Africa presented an image of multicultural nation with whites and blacks living together even with such horrible mistreatment

What is the Palestinian vision? What is the future? what do they want? What will their nation look like? Once those questions are answered it becomes much easier to go to Israel, go to the US, go to the UN and say help us accomplish this and have peace. You can say Israel is preventing these questions from being answered but that's a cop-out. If the onestaters can do it so can two staters. Kurdistan has the same issue too.
 
But Syria does not even pretend to be a democracy. It's a ruthless dictatorship. I think we should hold Israel to higher standards than that.

It also isn't supported by the world super power with regional military superiority and an unconditional UN veto. Israel's occupation is an extension of US policy. Syria's civil war is an extension of US interference. The comparison is willfully obtuse.
 
But Syria does not even pretend to be a democracy. It's a ruthless dictatorship. I think we should hold Israel to higher standards than that.
So if Israel would just stop being a democracy then, they could multiply the death toll by 2000 and the world wouldn't care.

I still don't understand this argument. The idea that admitting you are evil means you can get away with evil.
 
It also isn't supported by the world super power with regional military superiority and an unconditional UN veto. Israel's occupation is an extension of US policy. Syria's civil war is an extension of US interference. The comparison is willfully obtuse.

Such an easy world view. Who's to blame? The US of course!
 

JordanN

Banned
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Israel's own creation was on the back of some pretty heinous terrorism, although I'd doubt many in Israel would see it that way.
Hamas fights only for Hamas. They use Palestinians as pawns, literally (they are human bullet sponges to them).

Think of them as the greedy CEO who drives around in a Ferrari after laying off several employees and cutting their pay.

Hamas only wants to see more Palestinians dead while they live the high life of driving sports cars.
 
while at the same time able to hide the fact he knew about a murder to launch a attack of gaza to help him politically because he's a master politician?).

What are you contesting exactly? The family wasn't lied to? The quotes are fake?
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120083539&postcount=321

There were no gunshots on the phone call? They didn't have suspects within 48 hours? There wasn't a gag order on the media?

"Bibi is a dumb dumb" isn't exculpatory.
 

Chichikov

Member
Everything can be described as done for 'political reasons.' Bibi can pretty much launch an escalation at anytime if he so wanted. He doesn't. The politics narrative drives a very misleading and stereotypical image which isn't really backed up with any substance. Its all driven by preestablished ideas. Its the same stuff the right wing in the US pulls with everything Obama does. somehow these political nemesis at both times bumbling and super savvy (he's politically stumbling and not popular and not able to control his government while at the same time able to hide the fact he knew about a murder to launch a attack of gaza to help him politically because he's a master politician?).

There is something to be said about distraction as a political technique but it needs facts to back it up not insinuations (the case that 2012 was political is stronger since elections were upcoming but even then the Israel public voted mostly on economics). the fact that Israel doesn't want the reconciliation government is well known and I think that's the strongest case you got to claim this is political but even then the link is weak.

And I think your jumping a lot saying the Gaza escalations is directly tied to the murders and revenge murder. they're driven by the rockets. last weeks harassment in the west bank was driven by those murders not this.

and IDF budget things. every person in the world thinks the military wants a bigger budget and hypes threats. its nothing special with israel and I don't think it causes a special dynamic that's unique there (besides the already inflated budget because of 60 years of conflict, relative to this status quo its normal)
Try to line up military strikes with Israeli elections and tell me it's stereotypical image that isn't backed by substance.
And by the way, that crap predates the existence Hamas, it always been the case in Israel.
And I'm not denying that Netanyahu used the murders as an excuse to justify the escalation, what I'm saying is that the level of violence is pretty constant, these types of operations achieve nothing, everybody knows that, even idiots like Bibi, the only reason to go through this dog and pony show is political.

As for the IDF and its budget, sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.
I'll try and find articles in English if you really care, but the IDF leadership has been engaged in a very public and very ugly fight against proposed budget cuts, I can't speak about every military force in the world, but any American general who would try to pull a tiny fraction of what the current chief of staff did would get his ass canned faster than you can say Douglas MacArthur.
 

params7

Banned
The world stood by and watched the Syrian civil war kill many fold more than that.

Syria isn't a western backed and allied power. So far it looks like Israel will kill 20-30 Palestinians per day, many of them children and women, and injure twice more as long as the raids continue. I'd feel a little more comfortable knowing it isn't a country my government just blindly backs and arms.
 
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