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[NYCmetsfan]

Try to line up military strikes with Israeli elections and tell me it's stereotypical image that isn't backed by substance.
And by the way, that crap predates the existence Hamas, it always been the case in Israel.
And I'm not denying that Netanyahu used the murders as an excuse to justify the escalation, what I'm saying is that the level of violence is pretty constant, these types of operations achieve nothing, everybody knows that, even idiots like Bibi, the only reason to go through this dog and pony show is political.

As for the IDF and its budget, sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.
I'll try and find articles in English if you really care, but the IDF leadership has been engaged in a very public and very ugly fight against proposed budget cuts, I can't speak about every military force in the world, but any American general who would try to pull a tiny fraction of what the current chief of staff did would get his ass canned faster than you can say Douglas MacArthur.

They quite things down until the next time. They stop the rockets for a period.

But say Hamas launches the rockets because of the escalation in the west bank. What is Israel to do? Nothing? I don't see how responding to rocket fire (as predictable as it is and futile the suppression of it is in the long run) is 'political'.

And to the budget cuts. I don't need to know that they're facing budget cuts and have challenged bibi to poohpooh the idea people launch wars that risk peoples lives for 'politics' without evidence beyond budget fights. If anything Israel is extremely restrained (relatively in comparison to the violence against them) in using massive military force compared to many other nations.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Such an easy world view. Who's to blame? The US of course!

You know dick about my world view buddy. What is untrue about the comparison I made? Try engaging that. What are you having trouble with?

 

[nib95]

They quite things down until the next time. They stop the rockets for a period.

But say Hamas launches the rockets because of the escalation in the west bank. What is Israel to do? Nothing? I don't see how responding to rocket fire (as predictable as it is and futile the suppression of it is in the long run) is 'political'.

And to the budget cuts. I don't need to know that they're facing budget cuts and have challenged bibi to poohpooh the idea people launch wars that risk peoples lives for 'politics'

They stop aggressively expanding their settlements, demolishing Palestinian strictures and displacing countless Palestinians, and make a point of it, publicly, that's what.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

You know dick about my world view buddy. What is untrue about the comparison I made? Try engaging that. What are you having trouble with?

The that palestinian conflict is solved because of the US's actions or that the Syrian conflict is caused by the US's interference.

They stop aggressively expanding their settlements, demolishing Palestinian strictures and displacing countless Palestinians, and make a point of it, publicly, that's what.

This doesn't 'solve' the problem or stop rockets. There's a negotiated settlement to be had. the end of the settlements isn't a clear thing to do? What counts as a settlement? Where are the borders? What happens with the wall? There isn't just a single move that can be done. Its a process and processes take time. What happens to the rocket fire during that time?

I understand the wish that stopping settlements (a move I support) solves the problem. But it really doesn't. Just stoping that doesn't solve the myriad of other problems and political questions that will need to be solved and will surely be resisted violently by some.

 

[Chichikov]

They quite things down until the next time. They stop the rockets for a period. But say Hamas launches the rockets because of the escalation in the west bank. What is Israel to do? Nothing? I don't see how responding to rocket fire (as predictable as it is) is political.

That is not supported by facts. The only thing those operations achieve is a spike in rocket/mortar attacks during the operation itself (and many dead people).

 

[devilhawk]

It also isn't supported by the world super power with regional military superiority and an unconditional UN veto. Israel's occupation is an extension of US policy. Syria's civil war is an extension of US interference. The comparison is willfully obtuse.

Syria is supported by a former superpower and at least one unconditional UN veto.

 

[speculawyer]

So what is Israel's endgame?

I think they've painted themselves into a corner. Are they gonna do a 2 state solution or are they gonna be an Apartheid state?

Shit or get off the pot.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

That is not supported by facts. The only thing those operations achieve is a spike in rocket/mortar attacks during the operation itself (and many dead people).

So do nothing? They cause and immediate flare up and end in a cease fire. They achieve their goals

 

[nib95]

The that palestinian conflict is solved because of the US's actions or that the Syrian conflict is caused by the US's interference.

This doesn't 'solve' the problem or stop rockets. There's a negotiated settlement to be had. the end of the settlements isn't a clear thing to do? What counts as a settlement? Where are the borders? What happens with the wall? There isn't just a single move that can be done. Its a process and processes take time. What happens to the rocket fire during that time?

I understand the wish that stopping settlements (a move I support) solves the problem. But it really doesn't. Just stoping that doesn't solve the myriad of other problems and political questions that will need to be solved and will surely be resisted violently by some.

Every single ceasefire in history has been breached by Israel continuing it's settlement expansion policy. You cannot say such a move would not help when it has never been done or attempted for more than a brief week or so (during which a ceasefire was successful and persisted). Your response to so many things is just "it wouldn't help" or "it wouldn't work", but you have no basis or evidence to support such statements.

Not with respect to stopping continued demolitions and the displacement of countless Palestinians, nor with respect to how the UN could have made a difference to the situation had the USA not been the sole veto on so many resolutions by the UN against Israel, countless times over the decades.

 

[SliceSabre]

Even if the settlements stopped the Hama would just find another excuse to attempt to kill innocent civilians with rocket fire.

All terrorist do, that's why they are called terrorists. I mean at the base level the very existence of Isreal is enough for these terrorists to fire rockets into the country. You cannot reason with that and the terrorists only have themselves to blame when Isreal responds.

I mean crepes, why do you think the world isn't condemning Isreal right now? Because they all know Isreal's actions are currently justified in the face of 200 rockets being fired into their country. And don't start with that "But the rockets aren't killing anyone!" If a man fires a gun at a cop with intent to kill and misses every shot, do you expect that cop to ignore the man and continue on his way because the shots missed?

 

[nib95]

So what is Israel's endgame?

I think they've painted themselves into a corner. Are they gonna do a 2 state solution or are they gonna be an Apartheid state?

Shit or get off the pot.

I'd imagine their end game is to steal and own most, if not all of Palestine. From earlier in the thread.

That picture about sums it up. Look at the now massive illegal (under international law, and as recognised by the international community) Israeli settlement of Beitar Illit, and all the surrounding settlements. Now look at the dotted line around the settlements, which symbolises they are going to build another massive barrier there, cordoning off yet another big chunk of Palestine to Israel. And Palestinian villages such as Al-Jab'a, Wadi Fukin, Husan and others are still in it!

Then look at all the other blue settlements. It's very meticulous the way they are trying to systematically take over Palestine, spreading almost like an ant farm. It's obviously strategic and very calculated.

 

[phalestine]

Even if the settlements stopped the Hama would just find another excuse to attempt to kill innocent civilians with rocket fire.

All terrorist do, that's why they are called terrorists. I mean at the base level the very existence of Isreal is enough for these terrorists to fire rockets into the country. You cannot reason with that and they only have themselves to blame when Isreal response.

I mean crepes, why do you think the world isn't condemning Isreal right now? Because they all know Isreal's actions are currently justified in the face of 200 rockets being fired into their country. And don't start with that "But the rockets aren't killing anyone!" If a man fires a gun at a cop with intent to kill and misses every shot, do you expect that cop to ignore the man and continue on his way because the shots missed?

What a silly post. How do you explain the situation in the west bank?? Not Hamas, no rockets yet still occupied.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Every single ceasefire in history has been breached by Israel continuing it's settlement expansion policy. You cannot say such a move would not help when it has never been done or attempted for more than a brief week or so (during which a ceasefire was successful and persisted). Your response to so many things is just "it wouldn't help" or "it wouldn't work", but you have no basis or evidence to support such statements.

Not with respect to stopping further demolition and displacement, nor with respect to how the UN could have made a difference to the situation had the USA not been the sole veto on so many resolutions by the UN against Israel countless times over the decades.

round and round we go, going nowhere.

you're solution, having the power in an advantageous position 'go first', has never worked. It won't. discuss the fairness of that or not but its not going to work or happen

 

[Chichikov]

So do nothing?

This is the cost of keeping million of people oppressed.
By the way, Israel manages to keep that cost amazingly low, historically so, but history also tells us that this cost can't be zero, no matter what.
If Israel want the rocket attacks to end there are two things it can do - get a peace deal or go the genocide/ethnic cleanse route and level the place completely.

Doing this crap achieve nothing outside getting people killed.

Israel keep doing this shit like clockwork (it's like the 8th time) exactly because there is public demand to "do something" but no political will to do what necessary.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I understand the wish that stopping settlements (a move I support) solves the problem. But it really doesn't. Just stoping that doesn't solve the myriad of other problems and political questions that will need to be solved and will surely be resisted violently by some.

The beginning of negotiations for an occupying, colonizing force is to stop colonizing. Israel hasn't begun negotiations yet.

Liberal Zionists have difficulty reconciling the logical extension of Zionism. The settlements aren't going to stop. They're not a part of the negotiation. Thus, there is no negotiation, just time to kill. Literally. The Greater Israel right wing, in contrast, suffers no such pretense.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I'd imagine their end game is to steal and own most, if not all of Palestine. From earlier in the thread.

Do you really believe most of these settlements won't be evacuated? Olmert already admitted they would be in his plan

This is the cost of keeping million of people oppressed.
By the way, Israel manages to keep that cost amazingly low, historically so, but history also tells us that this cost can't be zero, no matter what.
If Israel want the rocket attacks to end there are two things it can do - get a peace deal or go the genocide/ethnic cleanse route and level the place completely.

Doing this crap achieve nothing outside getting people killed.

Israel keep doing this shit like clockwork (it's like the 8th time) exactly because there is public demand to "do something" but no political will to do what necessary.

You and others keep saying 'get a peace deal'. Ok fair enough. What does it look like? How long does it take? what happens in the mean time? what happens when certain parties don't like it? (I can see Palestine repeating a version of the Irish Civil War after any deal)

Edit: stupid to respond

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Syria is supported by a former superpower and at least one unconditional UN veto.

1:1. you got me.

 

[nib95]

Even if the settlements stopped the Hama would just find another excuse to attempt to kill innocent civilians with rocket fire.

All terrorist do, that's why they are called terrorists. I mean at the base level the very existence of Isreal is enough for these terrorists to fire rockets into the country. You cannot reason with that and the terrorists only have themselves to blame when Isreal responds.

Again, this is just propaganda fuelled assumption. Israel before it was Israel also had two major terrorist factions (Irgun and Lehi) running rampage, but naturally they refer to these groups as freedom fighters instead of terrorists despite the fact that they employed similar tactics, and Irgun in particular was seen as a terrorist organisation by most of the rest of the world. Despite now being defunct, members of these parties are now actively involved in Israeli politics, the leader of one of these groups later become Israel's prime minister, and In 1980, one was given a military decoration in "award for activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel," by israel.

But where are they now? There's no need for them to exist in any terrorist capacity, because they succeeded in their goals, that's what.

Similarly, Hamas has already stated they agree to the 1967 borders, and have proven they can comply with ceasefire agreements so long as further settlements aren't built, or more Palestinian land destroyed or occupied. Fact is, you cannot say Hamas would continue to do the things they do today were the 67 borders agreed to, and the illegal occupations done away with.

 

[nib95]

Do you really believe most of these settlements won't be evacuated? Olmert already admitted they would be in his plan

Talk is cheap.

The side to it that most of the world doesn't see is a detailed perspective of what fuel's the tensions and clashes in the first place.

Here's some official reports from The UN of occurrences in Palestine over the last few months and years. They release these weekly and it's been the same story for years and years. You can see Israel has been systematically driving Palestinians out of their homes to make way for further illegal settlements on a weekly basis, displacing hundreds, leading to countless deaths and hundreds of injuries.

There is also a consistent and massively disproportionate level of violence and vandalism aimed at Palestinians and their land, from Israeli settlers comparative to the same inflicted on Israeli settlements from Palestinians.

http://www.ochaopt.org/reports.aspx?id=104

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 17 - 23 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_26_english.pdf

4 Palestinians killed.
100 Palestinians injured.
340 Palestinians arrested.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
42 Palestinians displaced this week.
Multiple Palestinian charitable organisations closed.

Additionally, a total of 106 Palestinians, including 28 children, were injured during the clashes, including by rubber-coated metal bullets (37) and live ammunition (18), or treated due to physical assault (30) or tear gas inhalation (20) or after being hit by a tear gas canister (1). Over half the injuries occurred in clashes, mostly at night, which took place in refugee camps:

The main affected association was Hebron’s Islamic Charitable Organization. On 20 June, Israeli forces raided the headquarters of the organization, confiscated equipment, sealed the main door and affixed on it a closure order in force through the end of 2014. Three of the organization’s branches in the Hebron governorate (Ash Shyyoukh, Bani Naim and Beit Ula) were also raided. The organization employs 680 staff and provides assistance to some 6,000 beneficiaries, including in the areas of education, food, shelter, and social safety nets for poor families.

Other affected Islamic associations, which were raided and had equipment confiscated, included the Muslim Youth Association (Hebron), which runs 12 schools across the Hebron governorate (3,500 students), the Medical Islamic Relief, in Jenin, the Zakat charitable society in Tulkarm, and a small charitable society and women’s association in East Jerusalem; the latter two were also shut down.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 10 - 16 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_19_english.pdf

1 Palestinian killed.
72 Palestinians injured.
200 Palestinians arrested.
3 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
Movement restrictions to Palestinian supplies, markets and work places.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 3 - 9 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_13_english.pdf

33 Palestinians injured.
5 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
35 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 27 May - 2 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_06_english.pdf

1 Palestinian Killed
84 Palestinians injured.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
100 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 20 - 26 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_30_english.pdf

22 Palestinians injured.
100 Palestinians arrested.
Over 100 people displaced by demolitions to make way for military trainings in the Jordan Valley.
40 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
70 Palestinians displaced.

Also this week, the Spokesperson for the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights stated that according to the initial findings of an investigation it carried out, the killing of two Palestinian boys in a demonstration near Jerusalem by Israeli forces last week, “may amount to extrajudicial executions under human rights law as well as willful killings under international humanitarian law”.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 13 - 19 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_22_english.pdf

2 Palestinian boys killed
64 Palestinians injured.
Wave of demolitions and displacement in and around the e1 area, east of Jerusalem
20 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
40 Palestinians displaced.

This area, which includes 18 residential sites (2,800 people), has been identified as a priority for the implementation of an official Israeli plan to “relocate” most Bedouin communities across Area C to a limited number of sites. Most of this area has been allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements, including the E1 plan, as well as planned to be surrounded by the Barrier around Ma’ale Adumim settlement. The UN Secretary General has previously expressed concern that the implementation of these “relocation” plans may amount to forcible transfer, in contravention of international law.

Also this week, on 18 May, Israeli forces dismantled and confiscated three donor-funded residential tents, along with a cement mixer, in Tell al Khashabah Bedouin community in Nablus, displacing 27 people, including 18 children, for the third time in three weeks. The tents were provided in response to last week’s demolitions. Stop-work orders were issued against two structures in the same community, as well as against 15 residential structures, eight of which were provided by an international donor, and eight animal shelters in Khirbet Ghuwein al Fauqa (Hebron).

Also in Hebron, in an Area C section of Idhna town, Israeli forces tore down and removed six electricity poles supplying 15 households, on the grounds that they were installed without permits.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 6 - 12 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_15_english.pdf

43 Palestinians injured.
11 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
27 Palestinians displaced.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 29 April - 5 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_08_english.pdf

42 Palestinians injured.
Over 180 Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers
21 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
39 Palestinians displaced.

This week, the Israeli authorities demolished 21 Palestinian-owned structures in Area C and two others in East Jerusalem, displacing 39 people, including 23 children, and affecting 20 others.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 15 - 28 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_17_english.pdf

110 Palestinians injured (24 children).
Hundreds of Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers.
Palestinian families at imminent risk of forcible transfer.
Iissuance of eviction and demolition orders continue.

On 28 April, the Israeli authorities handed over eviction orders to three Palestinian families, comprising 29 people, including 18 children, in the Sateh al Bahr Bedouin community (Jericho). Additional families in the same community might be at similar risk, since a fourth eviction order, which contains no names, was also delivered to the community.

The orders were issued on grounds that the community reportedly exists in an area designated as a “closed military zone”. According to residents, Sateh al Bahr community has existed in its current location since the early 1970s. It includes 12 households, comprising 68 people, of whom 39 are children. The recent developments take place in the context of an Israeli plan to “relocate” most Bedouin communities across Area C of the West Bank to a limited number of sites. This plan will apply to the affected community, along with 18 communities (2,800 people) located in the eastern Jerusalem Governorate, in an area allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 8 - 14 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_16_english.pdf

94 Palestinians injured.
15 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
43 Palestinians displaced.

the east of Jerusalem at risk of forced displacement due to an official ‘relocation plan’ advanced by the Israeli authorities. This area has been allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements.

There are at least 200 donor-funded structures, including residential caravans, in theJerusalem area, with either stop-work or demolition orders, with an estimated cost exceeding 1 million shekels

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 1 - 7 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_10_english.pdf

52 Palestinians injured.
Hundreds of Palestinian-owned olive trees damaged by Israeli settlers.
50 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
93 Palestinians displaced.

During this week Israeli forces demolished a total of 50 structures. The demolitions led to the displacement of 93 people, half of whom were children, and affected 118 others.

Over half of this week’s demolitions took place on 1 April in the Jordan Valley, affecting the herding communities of Humsa al Buqai’a (14 structures), Al Ja’wana (13), Jiftlik/Abu al ‘Ajaj (2) and Husma al Basaliya (1). These demolitions bring the total number of structures demolished and people displaced in the Jordan Valley since the beginning of the year to over 130 and 250, respectively.

---

And this occurs week in week out, irrespective of any action from Hamas, or the actions of Palestinians. Ceasefire or not, periods of peace of not, the settlement expansion and the displacement of Palestinians continues.

 

[Dude Abides]

Do you really believe most of these settlements won't be evacuated? Olmert already admitted they would be in his plan

Is this a serious post? The Olmert plan was stillborn. When will well-meaning US liberals realize that the two "state" solution is deader than Arafat?

 

[Chichikov]

Do you really believe most of these settlements won't be evacuated? Olmert already admitted they would be in his plan
)

That map show the majority of the settlements as not evacuated but annexed to Israel.

You and others keep saying 'get a peace deal'. Ok fair enough. What does it look like? How long does it take? what happens in the mean time? what happens when certain parties don't like it? (I can see Palestine repeating a version of the Irish Civil War after any deal)

• 67 borders
• Evacuation of all settlements
• a real state which is free to do whatever states want to do (i.e. full control over military, borders, immigration)
• marshal plan like investment to help prop them up economically
• compensation to Palestinian refugees.

Either that or give them all equal rights.

And I don't know what would happen, but I do know that fear of the future cannot be used to justify denying basic human rights from millions of people.

 

[rokkerkory]

I don't really know what to say. But things are such a clusterfuck now. It's just really really sad. RIP to those innocent ones.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Again, this is just propaganda fuelled assumptions. Israel before it was Israel also had two major terrorist factions (Irgun and Lehi) running rampage, but naturally they refer to these groups as freedom fighters instead of terrorists despite the fact that they employed similar tactics. Despite now being defunct, members of these parties are now actively involved in Israeli politics, the leader of one of these groups later become Israel's prime minister, and In 1980, one was given a military decoration in "award for activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel," by israel.

But where are they now? There's no need for them to exist in any terrorist capacity, that's what.

Similarly, Hamas has already stated they agree to the 1967 borders, and have proven they can comply with ceasefire agreements so long as further settlements aren't built, or more Palestinian land destroyed or occupied. Fact is, you cannot say Hamas would continue to do the things they do today were the 67 borders agreed to, and the illegal occupations done away with.

While I agree with your general gist this statement is literally:

Again, this is just propaganda fuelled assumptions

The fact that you CAN'T say they will stop doesn't mean you should try but their shouldn't be illusions that its a forgone conclusion.

Nobody knows what will happen. It wasn't certain the Irgun/Lehi were gonna lay down their arms. Hell, the IDF had to fight the irgun

 

[Ponn]

I'd imagine their end game is to steal and own most, if not all of Palestine. From earlier in the thread.

Blue is Crips and red is Bloods right?

Spoiler

the parallels almost write themselves

 

[nib95]

While I agree with your general gist this statement is literally:


The fact that you CAN'T say they will stop doesn't mean you should try but their shouldn't be illusions that its a forgone conclusion.

Nobody knows what will happen. It wasn't certain the Irgun/Lehi were gonna lay down their arms. Hell, the IDF had to fight the irgun

I'm not saying with certainty that Hamas would stop. I believe they would, but obviously I can't say that with certainty. However, I can say that those saying they won't, with certainty, cannot have possibly come to that conclusion in any factual way. It would be purely assumption based, with no evidence to back it.

Hamas has shown that it can conform to ceasefire agreements and compromise away from it's initial beliefs, with the acceptance of the 67 borders and new agreements. Israel has proven time and time and again, that it cannot and will not cease illegal settlement expansion or mass Palestinian structure demolitions, not for longer than the briefest of periods anyway. And instead of agreeing to what most of the world would argue are fair terms, they continue to steal and settle upon more and more Palestinian land. On a weekly basis I might add.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

That map show the majority of the settlements as not evacuated but annexed to Israel.

Don't dispute that. Just saying his post about stealing all the land and dividing up the state. they're annexing the settlements close.

• 67 borders
• Evacuation of all settlements
• a real state which is free to do whatever states want to do (i.e. full control over military, borders, immigration)
• marshal plan like investment to help prop them up economically
• compensation to Palestinian refugees.

Either that or give them all equal rights.

And I don't know what would happen, but I do know that fear of the future cannot be used to justify denying basic human rights from millions of people.

So you live in a world that will never exist and will cause far more deaths than this conflict.

And its not fear of the future, its that its pretty hard to solve a problem in the middle of open warfare and a partner that has no idea what it will look like . Yes that means Israel continues to do what it's been doing and that's horrible for the Palestinian people who will be subject to abuses but you can't just up and leave. (Israel should be doing a better job at building up institutions for eventual withdrawal but the lack of Israel doing it doesn't mean the Palestinians can't do such a thing) Yes this is an invitation for perpetual occupation but the Israelis aren't going to leave on their own. The Palestinians need to build themselves up and say "leave" Like I posted earlier. That post looks better if you tell me what the Palestinian state looks like, you show me institutions that work, the realistic prospect their won't be violence. Until then I think its ridiculous to call for the immediate end of the occupation. (An international occupation could be called but that even more fanciful.)

I can't really look at another state that's successfully ended an occupation without this. At least one that's not fallen into chaos and more conflict

Is this a serious post? The Olmert plan was stillborn. When will well-meaning US liberals realize that the two "state" solution is deader than Arafat?

Yes its serious. There is no one state solution. There's two states and then there's no states.

I'm not saying with certainty that Hamas would stop. I believe they would, but obviously I can't say that with certainty. However, I can say that those saying they won't, with certainty, cannot have possibly come to that conclusion in any factual way. It would be purely assumption based, with no evidence to back it.

Hamas has shown that it can conform to ceasefire agreements and compromise away from it's initial beliefs, with the acceptance of the 67 borders and new agreements. Israel has proven time and time and again, that it cannot and will not cease illegal settlement expansion or mass Palestinian structure demolitions, not for longer than the briefest of periods anyway. And instead of agreeing to what most of the world would argue are fair terms, they continue to steal and settle upon more and more Palestinian land. On a weekly basis I might add.

I don't know how you don't see the contradiction there were you credit one for doing something you lambaste the other for doing.

And the 67 borders haven't really been agreed upon by Israel. The international community saying it enough as if its settled doesn't make it settled in Israel.

You and I may agree but Israel has a place at the table and expecting them to concede something they've never agreed to I think is absurd no matter how many international laws say something else. To turn it around, the same thing is true of Israel demanding the Jewish state recognition.

I'm not trying to argue for 'justice' 'the fair solution' 'what's right'. I'm trying to get through that expecting that is dooming the cause of a Palestinian state, which is a goal I share with you.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

you're solution, having the power in an advantageous position 'go first', has never worked. It won't. discuss the fairness of that or not but its not going to work or happen

I don't even know what to say..

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Until then I think its ridiculous to call for the immediate end of the occupation.

While an end to settlements wouldn't matter because that isn't what Palestinians are really mad about (wink wink). We'll just have to keep bulldozing and bombing, bulldozing and bombing, until these savages civilize themselves, because as Freddy Douglas liked to say, "power concedes nothing without reasoned supplication".

 

[Partial Gamification]

What are you contesting exactly? The family wasn't lied to? The quotes are fake?
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120083539&postcount=321

There were no gunshots on the phone call? They didn't have suspects within 48 hours? There wasn't a gag order on the media?

"Bibi is a dumb dumb" isn't exculpatory.

[...]"The families are in shock," Werzberger added. "No one among the suspects has a violent past or tendency and they can't explain how we got to this point where their children were arrested as suspects for acts that are very, very serious."

Despite the gag order, some additional details have begun to emerge.

Israel's Channel 10 TV said the suspects were the son and five grandsons of a prominent rabbi in Jerusalem, without further identifying him. It said two suspects used the rabbi's car for the kidnapping without his knowledge. It added that a Jerusalem district court presented its suspicions Monday against the suspects, including "belonging to a terror organization." It did not elaborate, and Israeli officials did not confirm the details in the report.

The news that the suspects were Jewish set off nationwide soul-searching over how Israelis could possibly carry out such a gruesome crime. A preliminary autopsy found that Abu Khdeir was still alive when he was set on fire.

"I am ashamed on behalf of my nation and grieve with you," President Shimon Peres told Abu Khdeir's father, Hussein, in a phone call. "The only thing left for all of us to do is to ensure that no more children are murdered, and no more tears are shed by mothers."
http://www.npr.org/2014/07/08/329657990/israeli-army-launches-offensive-on-gaza-strip

Bat Galim Shaar, the mother of Gilad Shaar, demanded investigators explain to her why gunshots can be heard in the background, and if this meant that her son was dead.

According to Bat Galim Shaar, police claimed the bullets were “blanks.” When the car used by the alleged kidnappers was discovered burned by a roadside, the Shin Bet told her no DNA was found. In fact, bullets and blood were present throughout the interior of the car. The Shin Bet had lied to the parents of the missing teens in order to stoke false hopes that their sons were alive.

So were they blanks or not? Mohammed Abu Khdeir was burned to death, was he shot? Maybe the DNA wasn't verified? What is the timeline here?

“When [the Shin Bet] told me finally at 6:00am Friday that the army was on the job, I felt better — as if we were in good hands,” Bat Galim Shaar told Israel’s Channel 10. “I was naïve, I told everyone Gilad would be home before Shabbat.”

Having deceived the victims’ parents, Israel’s military-intelligence apparatus moved to conceal the truth from the general public, imposing a gag order that barred the country’s media from reporting on the sound of gunshots in the recorded call to police.

All she was told is that the army was on the job. Maybe they inadvertently gave her false hope but I'd be wary of jumping to malicious intent. Its just not clear from this bit in the electronicintifada article you linked. This is something that requires a little more balance of sources before such a horrible thing is portrayed to be without doubt an orchestrated hostility catalyst.

According to the text of the gag order, which was first published in English at Mondoweiss, the military had forbidden Israeli reporters from publicizing “All the details of the investigation” and “All details that might identify the suspect.”

Maybe because the suspect was not confirmed, all of them from the killing, or in custody at that point? I don't know but there were younger people involved. "Israeli officials Sunday announced the arrests of six Jewish youths in the killings - ruling out earlier theories that criminal activity or personal reasons might have been a factor. They said the suspects, including some minors, were from the Jerusalem area. [NPR article linked above]"

Not only did all involved in the investigation — Netanyahu, the Shin Bet, the military — know right away that the three missing teens were almost certainly dead, they had identified the two men they believed were responsible for the crime little more than a day after it occurred.

Well, there are six now. Its just like a little bit of information was spun into something bigger than it was. There could be something to it, but I'd like to see more sources, and the gag order.

 

[RustyNails]

You and others keep saying 'get a peace deal'. Ok fair enough. What does it look like? How long does it take? what happens in the mean time? what happens when certain parties don't like it? (I can see Palestine repeating a version of the Irish Civil War after any deal)

King Abdullah (Saudi Arabia)'s Arab Peace Initiative

(a) Complete withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the 4 June 1967 line and the territories still occupied in southern Lebanon;
(b) Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194.
(c) Accept the establishment of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since 4 June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital.

In return the Arab states will do the following:
(a) Consider the Arab–Israeli conflict over, sign a peace agreement with Israel, and achieve peace for all states in the region;
(b) Establish normal relations with Israel within the framework of this comprehensive peace.[2]

Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia made a speech to the Arab League on the day of its adoption saying that:

In spite of all that has happened and what still may happen, the primary issue in the heart and mind of every person in our Arab Islamic nation is the restoration of legitimate rights in Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.... We believe in taking up arms in self-defence and to deter aggression. But we also believe in peace when it is based on justice and equity, and when it brings an end to conflict. Only within the context of true peace can normal relations flourish between the people of the region and allow the region to pursue development rather than war. In light of the above, and with your backing and that of the Almighty, I propose that the Arab summit put forward a clear and unanimous initiative addressed to the United Nations security council based on two basic issues: normal relations and security for Israel in exchange for full withdrawal from all occupied Arab territories, recognition of an independent Palestinian state with al-Quds al-Sharif as its capital, and the return of refugees.[15]

Tell me what part of the deal is unreasonable.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

King Abdullah (Saudi Arabia)'s Arab Peace Initiative

Tell me what part of the deal is unreasonable.

you missing my point completely. I'm not talking about the end goal (though that plan doesn't talk anything about the structure of the Palestinian state. And I said this last night outside parties can't impose solutions). I'm talking about the process and the promise that the deal won't implode. That takes time. In the mean time, what?

My posts are trying to dispel the notion Israel can just stop the rocket fire tomorrow and every military action will then be forever unnecessary.

(I don't have much of a problem with that deal personally, though the golan question is obviously not to be entertained with Syria as it is now.)

 

[Chichikov]

So you live in a world that will never exist and will cause far more deaths than this conflict.

And its not fear of the future, its that its pretty hard to solve a problem in the middle of open warfare and a partner that has no idea what it will look like . Yes that means Israel continues to do what it's been doing and that's horrible for the Palestinian people who will be subject to abuses but you can't just up and leave. (Israel should be doing a better job at building up institutions for eventual withdrawal but the lack of Israel doing it doesn't mean the Palestinians can't do such a thing) Yes this is an invitation for perpetual occupation but the Israelis aren't going to leave on their own. The Palestinians need to build themselves up and say "leave" Like I posted earlier. That post looks better if you tell me what the Palestinian state looks like, you show me institutions that work, the realistic prospect their won't be violence. Until then I think its ridiculous to call for the immediate end of the occupation. (An international occupation could be called but that even more fanciful.)

I think international pressure can force Israel to accept that solution (the Palestinian and international community would jump on it), Apartheid was way more entrenched than the settlements and the sanctions worked.

And if you think that a Palestinian state is just too big of a risk for Israel, annex the land and give everyone citizenship.
You can't justify denying basic human rights of million of people because granting it to them might mean that some of them will resort to violence.

And let's put that stuff in perspective - a Palestinian state cannot and will not pose an existential risk to Israel.
Israel is strong modern country with a mighty army and nuclear weapons, the worst case scenario is pretty much what you see in Gaza, which kills must less people that car accidents.
You are using that rather minor threat to rationalize denying basic human rights of million of people and a whole lot of death.
For fuck's sake, there is a Palestinian kid getting killed every 3.7 days, you gonna keep up with that because there is a chance that somehow in the future Jews are going to get hurt?

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

So were they blanks or not? Mohammed Abu Khdeir was burned to death, was he shot? Maybe the DNA wasn't verified? What is the timeline here?

Sorry I'm confused, what does MAK have to do with this?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I think international pressure can force Israel to accept that solution (the Palestinian and international community would jump on it), Apartheid was way more entrenched than the settlements and the sanctions worked.

And if you think that a Palestinian state is just too big of a risk for Israel, annex the land and give everyone citizenship.
You can't justify denying basic human rights of million of people because granting it to them might mean that some of them will resort to violence.

And let's put that stuff in perspective - a Palestinian state cannot and will not pose an existential risk to Israel.
Israel is strong modern country with a mighty army and nuclear weapons, the worst case scenario is pretty much what you see in Gaza, which kills must less people that car accidents.
You are using that rather minor threat to rationalize denying basic human rights of million of people and a whole lot of death.
For fuck's sake, there is a Palestinian kid getting killed every 3.7 days, you gonna keep up with that because there is a chance that somehow in the future Jews are going to get hurt?

I never said that at all. I said you need to have a Palestinian state or the outlines before you end the occupation. That's a far cry from saying a Palestinian state is a risk. Most occupations have a period between the peace deal and the final evacuation

the rest of your post is expounding on the same straw man or misinterpretation. And continuing the same scorecard argument which attempts to paint the person as 'not caring'

I'm calling for the end of occupation. Just not immediately and without any idea what comes next. Oslo was a failure for not providing this, like it was supposed to. And a lot of blame falls on the Israelis for undermining many of these efforts. But you have to eventually stop relying on others if youre calling for independence.

 

[m_shortpants]

you missing my point completely. I'm not talking about the end goal (though that plan doesn't talk anything about the structure of the Palestinian state. And I said this last night outside parties can't impose solutions). I'm talking about the process and the promise that the deal won't implode. That takes time. In the mean time, what?

My posts are trying to dispel the notion Israel can just stop the rocket fire tomorrow and every military action will then be forever unnecessary.

(I don't have much of a problem with that deal personally, though the golan question is obviously not to be entertained with Syria as it is now.)

As a start, Israel could stop building settlements. Again, I'm not sure what Fatah in the West Bank can concede or bring to the table.

 

[RustyNails]

you missing my point completely. I'm not talking about the end goal (though that plan doesn't talk anything about the structure of the Palestinian state. And I said this last night outside parties can't impose solutions). I'm talking about the process and the promise that the deal won't implode. That takes time. In the mean time, what?

My posts are trying to dispel the notion Israel can just stop the rocket fire tomorrow and every military action will then be forever unnecessary.

(I don't have much of a problem with that deal personally, though the golan question is obviously not to be entertained with Syria as it is now.)

I am not sure if I'm answering to your specific question, but Israel can stop the rocket fire tomorrow. Agree to 67 borders, lift the blockade, recognize the status of refugees. Done. Rocket fire gone.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Sorry I'm confused, what does MAK have to do with this?

I confused the gag orders and parents. Its still a valid question to ask if the authorities had confirmed the DNA of the three, at that point.

Three Israeli teenagers who were abducted by Palestinians in the occupied West Bank last month were shot at least 10 times with a silenced gun in what appeared to be premeditated killings, a U.S. official involved in the investigation said.
http://news.yahoo.com/kidnapped-israelis-shot-10-times-silenced-gun-u-111453214.html

Was the gun silenced, and if so would it be audible -similar to blanks?


The gag-orders do go out as to not compromise investigations.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I am not sure if I'm answering to your specific question, but Israel can stop the rocket fire tomorrow. Agree to 67 borders, lift the blockade, recognize the status of refugees. Done. Rocket fire gone.

But I don't know if you really think this is reasonable or going to happen. You're basically saying no peace deal (aka agreed by both sides). Its our solution or the rockets. And bringing up what they had, or what they once stood for or what the 48 deal was is pointless. Its 2014.

Well, the problem is that Israel is not willing to end the occupation.
It's been almost half a century already.

I don't think time is a fair measure considering violence has been rampant the whole time.

on a side note I'm not coming in the thread for the rest of the night so non-responses are due to that. I'm not sure if I'm going to come back. I keep telling myself not to post but end up doing it.

I'll leave with this passage from Edward Said. And though I disagree with much ('jewish supremacy') I think he's a respectable voice that I think many more Palestinian advocates would do well to read.

What then is to be done if the old basis of Palestinian legitimacy no longer really exists? Certainly there can be no return to Oslo, anymore than there can be to Jordanian or Israeli law. As a student of periods of important historical change, I should like to point out that when a major rupture with the past occurred (as during the period after the fall of the monarchy because of the French Revolution, or with the demise of apartheid in South Africa before the elections of 1994 took place), a new basis of legitimacy has to be created by the only and ultimate source of authority, namely, the people itself. The major interests in Palestinian society, those that have kept life going, from the trade unions, to health workers, teachers, farmers, lawyers, doctors, in addition to all the many NGOs must now become the basis on which Palestinian reform -- despite Israel's incursions and the occupation -- is to be constructed. It seems to me useless to wait for Arafat, or Europe, or the US, or the Arabs to do this: it must absolutely be done by Palestinians themselves by way of a Constituent Assembly that contains in it all the major elements of Palestinian society. Only such a group, constructed by the people themselves and not by the remnants of the Oslo dispensation, certainly not by the shabby fragments of Arafat's discredited Authority, can hope to succeed in re- organising society from the ruinous, indeed catastrophically incoherent condition in which it is to be found. The basic job for such an Assembly is to construct an emergency system of order that has two purposes. One, to keep Palestinian life going in an orderly way with full participation for all concerned. Two, to choose an emergency executive committee whose mandate is to end the occupation, not negotiate with it. It is quite obvious that militarily we are no match for Israel. Kalishnikoffs are not effective weapons when the balance of power is so lopsided. What is needed is a creative method of struggle that mobilises all the human resources at our disposal to highlight, isolate and gradually make untenable the main aspects of Israeli occupation e.g., settlements, settlement roads, roadblocks and house demolitions. The present group around Arafat is hopelessly incapable of thinking of, much less implementing, such a strategy: it is too bankrupt, too bound up in corrupt selfish practices, too burdened with the failures of the past.

For such a Palestinian strategy to work there has to be an Israeli component made up of individuals and groups with whom a common basis of struggle against occupation can and indeed must be established. This is the great lesson of the South African struggle: that it proposed the vision of a multi- racial society from which neither individuals nor groups and leaders were ever deflected. The only vision coming out of Israel today is violence, forcible separation and the continued subordination of Palestinians to an idea of Jewish supremacy. Not every Israeli believes in these things of course, but it must be up to us to project the idea of co-existence in two states that have natural relations with each other on the basis of sovereignty and equality. Mainstream Zionism has still not been able to produce such a vision, so it must come from the Palestinian people and their new leaders whose new legitimacy has to be constructed now, at a moment when everything is crashing down and everyone is anxious to re-make Palestine in his own image and according to his own ideas.

 

[Chichikov]

I never said that at all. I said you need to have a Palestinian state or the outlines before you end the occupation. That's a far cry from saying a Palestinian state is a risk. Most occupations have a period between the peace deal and the final evacuation

the rest of your post is expounding on the same straw man or misinterpretation. And continuing the same scorecard argument which attempts to paint the person as 'not caring'

I'm calling for the end of occupation. Just not immediately and without any idea what comes next. Oslo was a failure for not providing this, like it was supposed to. And a lot of blame falls on the Israelis for undermining many of these efforts. But you have to eventually stop relying on others if youre calling for independence.

Well, the problem is that Israel is not willing to end the occupation.
It's been almost half a century already.

 

[nib95]

I don't know how you don't see the contradiction there were you credit one for doing something you lambaste the other for doing.

Because Hamas was able to conform to the ceasefire in most respects up until Israel turned up the rate of it's illegal expansion programmes, and was actually responsible for breaking the ceasefire in the first place.

People forget the things that led up to the break in the 2012 ceasefire. Here are the UN reports leading up to it.

http://www.ochaopt.org/reports.aspx?id=104

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 31 October - 6 November 2012

Israeli forces kill a Palestinian man in Gaza and injure 13 other Palestinians in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Around 80 Palestinian-owned structures were demolished, displacing over 120 people. Settlers cut down around 30 trees and take over a house in East Jerusalem. Israeli army issue eviction orders to dozens of families in the Jordan Valley. In Gaza, local authorities demolish two houses, displacing ten people.

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 24 - 30 October 2012

Israeli forces kill three Palestinians in Gaza and injure nine others throughout the oPt. Settlers damage eight olive trees. Israeli authorities demolish seven Palestinian livelihood structures. Also in Gaza, three workers died in a tunnel collapse. 200,000 residents still have intermittent electricity supplies.

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 17 - 23 October 2012

This weeks escalation in Gaza and southern Israel results in the death of six Palestinians and the injury of eight other Palestinians and three Israelis. In the West Bank, Israeli settlers injure three Palestinians and damage around 50 olive trees. Israeli authorities demolish three Palestinian-owned structures. Also in Gaza, the transfer of Qatar fuel resumed and six truckloads of date bars exited to the West Bank.

And we also know that the Hamas leader that Israel assassinated, had become one of the more moderate in the party, and was responsible for the majority of the peace talks and negotiations in the years before his murder. Yet they removed him from the equation none-the-less.

Then we have Israel's vehement rejection of Abbas seeking Palestinian UN statehood and saying they'd be willing to topple Abbas in order to prevent it. The UN bid for it was on November the 29th of 2012, ironically only a few weeks before Israel's breach of the ceasefire and increased violent actions. Doesn't take a genius to conclude that Israel's breach of the ceasefire and actions leading up to it, were not meagre convenience.

Israel ministry paper proposes 'toppling' Abbas over UN bid

The position paper states that the "main goal of the State of Israel" is to deter the Palestinians from unilaterally seeking non-member observer state status at the UN, which should be seen as "crossing a red line that will require the harshest Israeli response".

The Palestinian UN bid is due to be negotiated on the 29th November. There is a chance that this invasion might quash it.

Palestinian UN observer state bid on 29 November

Abbas: Israel Trying to Undermine Palestinian UN Bid

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel on Friday of launching an assault on the Gaza Strip to undermine his efforts to secure a diplomatic upgrade at the United Nations. Israel began its air offensive on Wednesday.

Abbas, accused Israel of instigating a "blood bath," telling reporters he thought the escalating military campaign was aimed at sinking his own diplomatic manoeuvrings.

Officials in Gaza say 28 Palestinians, including 16 civilians, had been killed since the start of the Israeli offensive. Three Israeli civilians were killed by a rocket on Thursday.

"Everything that is happening is in order to block our endeavors to reach the United Nations," Abbas told journalists.

Abbas, recognized by the West as the legitimate leader of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, has asked Arab League chief Nabil Elaraby to visit the enclave on Saturday and Sunday.

"Undoubtedly we consider that this aggression is against us, the Palestinian people," he said.

Pushing ahead

Despite the violence, he said he would push ahead with plans for a vote at the UN General Assembly before the end of the month to give the Palestinians the rank of an "observer state" within the world body rather than the present "observer entity".

The upgrade would enhance Palestinians' legal rights at a time when peace negotiations with Israel have hit a wall over Israel's refusal to halt settlement building in territory where the Palestinians want their state.

"We are going to the United Nations to vote on the resolution of our becoming an observer state on the 29th of this month. Nothing will deter us," Abbas said.

Both Israel and the United States have condemned the planned vote, which Abbas looks set to win, saying it violated the 1993 Oslo accords, which were intended to pave the way to a "final status agreement" within five years.

But on the streets of Ramallah on Friday thoughts were firmly focused on Gaza rather than far-away New York.

Hundreds of Hamas supporters marched on Ramallah's main square, waving green Hamas flags and chanting "Hamas, onwards, onwards." Bearded young men carried posters of Ahmad Al-Jaabari, the Hamas military leader Israel assassinated on Wednesday.

"What is happening in Gaza is a grave injustice," Ahmad Salem, 24, said. "But I know that God is with us and he will liberate Gaza sooner or later."

You've got to eventually let the facts, logic and common sense take centre seat. As I've said so many times, any rationale person can conclude that Israel is not after peace, nor is it after anything which could give Palestine any support systems towards furthering it's access to both their land, their infrastructure and their human rights.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I confused the gag orders and parents. Its still a valid question to ask if the authorities had confirmed the DNA of the three had been matched at that point.

The Shin Bet told her no DNA was found. What is valid here?

Was the gun silenced, and if so would it be audible -similar to blanks?

We'll have to ask the experts. Shin Bet might have a few.

The gag-orders do go out as to not compromise investigations.

Gagging the evidence of gun shots and the existence of wanted suspects did nothing to serve or protect the investigation.

 

[RustyNails]

But I don't know if you really think this is reasonable or going to happen. You're basically saying no peace deal (aka agreed by both sides). Its our solution or the rockets. And bringing up what they had, or what they once stood for or what the 48 deal was is pointless. Its 2014.

It can happen. Why not? As Chichikov pointed out South Africa was lot more entrenched with the apartheid and they were able to pull out after meeting ANC's demands (remember, ANC was classified as a terrorist organization and Nelson Mandela a terrorist). Besides we don't even have to go to that part of the world. I'm not sure if you recall Oslo I peace accords. Before Oslo I, PLO was a terrorist organization whose charter called for the destruction of Israel and engaged in terrorism, just like Hamas today. After Oslo I, PLO recognized Israel, renounced terrorism and established the PA (but as usually the case, nothing really came out from Israel's side). There is no reason not to believe that Hamas will renounce terrorism after Israel recognizes 67 borders and agrees to the fundamentals of the 2002 Peace Initiative.

 

[Partial Gamification]

The Shin Bet told her no DNA was found. What is valid here?


We'll have to ask the experts. Shin Bet might have a few.


Gagging the evidence of gun shots and the existence of wanted suspects did nothing to serve or protect the investigation.

Well, time could tell on whether or not the gag helped any investigation. I'm not saying you are wrong just that there seems more to it than what the electronicintifada article put forward, its stretching what is presented. Are there any other sources with more detail?

 

[RustyNails]

Everything can be described as done for 'political reasons.' Bibi can pretty much launch an escalation at anytime if he so wanted. He doesn't. The politics narrative drives a very misleading and stereotypical image which isn't really backed up with any substance. Its all driven by preestablished ideas. Its the same stuff the right wing in the US pulls with everything Obama does. somehow these political nemesis at both times bumbling and super savvy (he's politically stumbling and not popular and not able to control his government while at the same time able to hide the fact he knew about a murder to launch a attack of gaza to help him politically because he's a master politician?).

There is something to be said about distraction as a political technique but it needs facts to back it up not insinuations (the case that 2012 was political is stronger since elections were upcoming but even then the Israel public voted mostly on economics). the fact that Israel doesn't want the reconciliation government is well known and I think that's the strongest case you got to claim this is political but even then the link is weak.

I also wanted to address this, and maybe this hot mic incident from Netanyahu can shed more light into his motives:

In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[9][10] Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations", and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location"—such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords", Netanyahu affirmed.[11]

Guy is a conniving thug.

 

[nib95]

I also wanted to address this, and maybe this hot mic incident from Netanyahu can shed more light into his motives:

In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[9][10] Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations", and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location"—such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords", Netanyahu affirmed.[11]

Guy is a conniving thug.

Pretty much. The writings always been on the wall. I'm baffled by the naivety and denial of those who simply refuse to, or cannot see it.

Didn't he also make some remarks about how the US was easily led astray and bent to will? Something like "America can be moved easily"?

EDIT: Yeap, more on it here.

"I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won't get in their way."

He also boasts of manipulating the U.S. in the ongoing peace process, as the Washington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/16/netanyahu-in-2001-america_n_649427.html

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Well, time could tell on whether or not the gag helped any investigation. I'm not saying you are wrong just that there seems more to it than what the electronicintifada article put forward, its stretching what is presented.

The lies to the family, the evidence of murder, the knowledge of suspects and location within 48 hours- and the two weeks that followed are being referred to as "an investigation"?

I'm sorry but it doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[KimiNewt]

Woken up by alarms again. Should start waking up earlier.
Thank the non-existent god for Iron Dome though. Not a single rocket actually landed here though I guess it's just a matter of time

 

[nib95]

I'm confident that decades from now, Israel will only end up being yet another political thorn in the US's side, to add to the list of many they've been partly responsible for creating or empowering throughout history. Right now there's massive political and economic gain in supporting Israel, but that line will be tested.

Israel was already accused of selling US military secrets to China, which the US was reportedly furious about.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-accused-of-selling-us-secrets-to-china-1510406.html

And more.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/175404#.U74gocadoo8

 

[hydragonwarrior]

So if Israel does intend to take over all of Palestine's land, what are they expecting to do to the people? Like push them into the outlying countries?

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

http://t.co/xpCDWVJneW
retraction coming?