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[Partial Gamification]

The lies to the family, the evidence of murder, the knowledge of suspects and location within 48 hours- and the two weeks that followed are being referred to as "an investigation"?

I'm sorry but it doesn't pass the smell test.

Could be right but I'm not convinced. Should, hopefully, know soon.

Missing since hitch-hiking home on June 12, their bodies were discovered on June 30. Israel blamed Hamas for their deaths but the Palestinian Islamist group has neither confirmed nor denied the allegation.

One of the three Israelis, Gil-Ad Shaer, 16, telephoned police and said "They've kidnapped me!" after he, Fraenkel and 19-year-old Eyal Yifrah got into a car which investigators suspect was driven by a Hamas militant posing as a religious Jew. A second disguised gunman sat in the front passenger seat.

A US official involved in the probe said the FBI, whose mandate includes Americans abducted abroad, received a recording of the distress call from Israel within days and sent it for audio analysis in the United States.

Distorted, tinny reports heard on the tape after an Arabic-accented male voice shouts "Head down!" in response to Shaer's attempt to raise the alarm were found to be consistent with shots from a silenced firearm, the US official said.

"There were 10 gunshots," added the official, who was interviewed on condition of anonymity.

The use of a silencer led US investigators to believe the captors planned to kill the three teenagers from the outset, the US official said.

Israeli officials declined to respond to the American account of the investigation, saying it was still ongoing.
[...]
"We haven't even caught the kidnappers yet, so we're not going public with anything more now," said an official with the Shin Bet security service, which is in charge of the case.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/theyve-...ith-silenced-gun-official-20140710-zt1zs.html

US says it was silencer from audio.

Israeli statement just seems to me like typical "ongoing investigation" comment. Is it rare for them to do it? Still need a timeline with calll(s) to understand better. Maybe I'll look tomorrow when I'm not spent.

 

[ramuh]

Wasn't the removal of all Israelis in the Gaza a part of the peace deal in the early 2000s? What there a lot of rocket launches before that?

 

[RustyNails]

http://t.co/xpCDWVJneW
retraction coming?

This is nothing new and you must believe me when I say it's hardly shocking anymore. The US mainstream news media is so horribly inept with regards to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Too bad the damage has already been done.

Pretty much. The writings always been on the wall. I'm baffled by the naivety and denial of those who simply refuse to, or cannot see it.

Didn't he also make some remarks about how the US was easily led astray and bent to will? Something like "America can be moved easily"?

EDIT: Yeap, more on it here.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/16/netanyahu-in-2001-america_n_649427.html

It's nothing new and par for the course for Bibi. Everyone in the Arab world see him for what he truly is, a bloodthirsty butcher.

 

[ramuh]

It's nothing new and par for the course for Bibi. Everyone in the Arab world see him for what he truly is, a bloodthirsty butcher.

A bloodthirsty butcher of what? Palestinians? Just curious. Are you calling the airstrikes the butchering part?

 

[RustyNails]

A bloodthirsty butcher of what? Palestinians? Just curious.

Butcher of kittens.

 

[Hyperactivity]

See, it's harder to argue the whole Hamas should be the first guy to stop, when, in the West Bank, violence and rockets have stopped, and they're still be treated like crap

The argument would have merit if it wasn't the case, but until then it loses ground on this point

Hamas and Islamic Jihad are terrorists who use their own civilians as human shield. If they don't care, why should Israel? Would you suffer rockets on your capital because your enemy hides behind their civilians?

Here, watch this video from Islamic Jihad. They are proud of themselves.

Meanwhile, in Israel, we avoid hurting civilians as much as we can, although they are dumb as shit by going up there.

This is rich coming from you

 

[ramuh]

Butcher of kittens.

A terrible thing to be a butcher of. So cuttte.

 

[daniels]

Everyone in the Arab world see him for what he truly is, a bloodthirsty butcher.

Honestly this blows my mind the Arab World thinks someone else is bloodthirsty? lol thanks for the laugh.

 

[theignoramus]

http://t.co/xpCDWVJneW
retraction coming?

holy mother of christ, that is awful, irresponsible, and reckless journalism.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Honestly this blows my mind the Arab World thinks someone else is bloodthirsty? lol thanks for the laugh.

More than enough bloodthirst to go around. "lol thanks for the laugh" is just dismissively rude. Netanyahu is probably not truly a bloodthirsty monster, if he was I'd imagine he could easily satiate his thirst. The slow bleed though, if he could prevent it - would he? In the face of all of the political opposition...

I hope this is not connected to the two incidents that led to this current mission:

the suspects were the son and five grandsons of a prominent rabbi in Jerusalem, without further identifying him. It said two suspects used the rabbi's car for the kidnapping without his knowledge. It added that a Jerusalem district court presented its suspicions Monday against the suspects, including "belonging to a terror organization."

Bad apples in just about every bunch.

 

[Relique]

Honestly this blows my mind the Arab World thinks someone else is bloodthirsty? lol thanks for the laugh.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement there.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Even if the settlements stopped the Hama would just find another excuse to attempt to kill innocent civilians with rocket fire.

All terrorist do, that's why they are called terrorists. I mean at the base level the very existence of Isreal is enough for these terrorists to fire rockets into the country. You cannot reason with that and the terrorists only have themselves to blame when Isreal responds.

I mean crepes, why do you think the world isn't condemning Isreal right now? Because they all know Isreal's actions are currently justified in the face of 200 rockets being fired into their country. And don't start with that "But the rockets aren't killing anyone!" If a man fires a gun at a cop with intent to kill and misses every shot, do you expect that cop to ignore the man and continue on his way because the shots missed?

Does Hamas have public support anymore when Palestinians see that peace would actually get them somewhere though? Does Hamas get elected in those situations?

That;s a more important question than "Will Hamas ever stop?"

Not even to account for the fact that Hamas itself, or at least a contingent of it, seems likely to be satisfied with 1967+East Jerusalem+rights any other country has (own military, policing themselves)+some sort of compensation plan for Palestinain refugees and their descendants 2 state plan as their end game

Israel can show the validity of going with peace to Gaza in the West Bank anytime they want

 

[daniels]

More than enough bloodthirst to go around. "lol thanks for the laugh" is just dismissively rude. Netanyahu is probably not truly a bloodthirsty monster, if he was I'd imagine he could easily satiate his thirst.

Well i actually really laughed ... and i think labeling someone a bloodthirsty monster while pretending to speak for the whole arab world is a lil bit more rude.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Well i actually really laughed ... and i think labeling someone a bloodthirsty monster while pretending you speak for the whole arab world is a lil bit more rude.

Say that politely then. The lol doesn't add anything.

 

[daniels]

Say that politely then. The lol doesn't add anything.

Ok i see where you are coming from sry if i offended you or anybody else.

 

[curlyfriski]

What is the purpose of this? This is why the Palestinian cause is in such decrepit shape. I say this in the kindest way but you don't empower and help yourself with a pity party. You open yourself to people posting imagines of terrorists on the Palestinian side and drawing conclusions about the entirety of the statehood movement. It becomes the scorecard argument.

The Palestinians aren't going to get a savior to save them. They're gonna need to build themselves up take charge and present a vision that's powerful persuasive and realistic. No independence movement has ever been successful without doing this

- Israel presented an Image of a jewish state living with and along side arabs (obviously the war screwed this up). the world signed up for it
- India presented a united image of a subcontinental state with a rich history and thousands of cultures seeking to break free from colonialism and build itself up as a democracy.
- South Africa presented an image of multicultural nation with whites and blacks living together even with such horrible mistreatment

What is the Palestinian vision? What is the future? what do they want? What will their nation look like? Once those questions are answered it becomes much easier to go to Israel, go to the US, go to the UN and say help us accomplish this and have peace. You can say Israel is preventing these questions from being answered but that's a cop-out. If the onestaters can do it so can two staters. Kurdistan has the same issue too.

The naivite of this passage is almost endearing. Independence isn't won by making a great presentation to The World (and by the world, you mean the part of it that's rich and powerful enough to bully the poorer parts into going along with its desires). It's done by gaining leverage, either by having The World willing to back you up or being strong enough to win independence on your own. The colonized peoples of the world didn't throw off their shackles because they made a Draper-esque pitch at the UN building. They won it because the power of those colonizers deteriorated post WWII. Kurdistan isn't a state because the groups that don't want it to be a state are more powerful than those that do. It doesn't matter how compelling their image of the future is, it wouldn't change Turkey being important enough to keep it in the realm of fantasy. Just look at recent history--why is Kurdistan slightly more possible now than it was before? Because Iraq descended into chaos, and the Kurds pounced on the opportunity.

The Palestinians have no leverage. They are dwarfed militarily and economically by Israel. Israel has much more powerful friends than they do, and those friends don't look likely to jump ship any time soon.

Abbas's method doesn't work. He's kept a lock on the West Bank, cracked down on resistance, repressed and killed his own citizens to keep Israel happy and his own power secure, played the negotiations game time and time again. He's gained nothing from it--in fact, the Palestinian cause is worse off. The settlements are more entrenched and there's zero chance of a deal, and everybody knows it. Why? Because Abbas has no leverage. The Israelis know this. And no "vision" is going to change the realities of the world.

Honestly this blows my mind the Arab World thinks someone else is bloodthirsty? lol thanks for the laugh.

Please, share more about the bloodthirstiness of Arabs.

 

[Terra Firma]

Honestly this blows my mind the Arab World thinks someone else is bloodthirsty? lol thanks for the laugh.

Why is obvious racism allowed on this board?

 

[daniels]

Why is obvious racism allowed on this board?

It was based on this...

It's nothing new and par for the course for Bibi. Everyone in the Arab world see him for what he truly is, a bloodthirsty butcher.

But of course you conveniently ignore this

 

[curlyfriski]

It was based on this...



But of course you conveniently ignore this

He called one person bloodthirsty, you insinuated an entire ethnic group is. That's a huge difference.

 

[LNBL]

Already 50 deaths, of which are 45 civilian casualties. 12 children and 1 press reporter. And the worst thing is that the people in Gaza have no were to flee to since the borders to Israel and Egypt are closed.

The rest of the world should be ashamed ofthemseles for standing by and looking at this massacre.

 

[ThreeBeta]

About all the comments about the occupation of Palestinian territories, the West Bank.
I want to remind you that the west bank isn't Palestinian territory, it's Jordanian territory and it was occupied after the six days war when Jordan attacked Israel right along with Egypt, Syria and Lebanon (That's all the borders Israel have).
During that war, Israel occupied the West Bank.

Personally, I think Israel should give it back.
But, since a lot of you have very strong ideas about the West Bank settlements and how Israel should give it back, I would like to remind you that the North American continent was not devoid of native population when the Europeans discovered it, neither was Australia and more countries.

Think about that for a second.
The West Bank was occupied as a result of a war the Israel did not start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJFA9M2OIs&app=desktop

 

[Hyperactivity]

About all the comments about the occupation of Palestinian territories, the West Bank.
I want to remind you that the west bank isn't Palestinian territory, it's Jordanian territory and it was occupied after the six days war when Jordan attacked Israel right along with Egypt, Syria and Lebanon (That's all the borders Israel have).
During that war, Israel occupied the West Bank.

Personally, I think Israel should give it back.
But, since a lot of you have very strong ideas about the West Bank settlements and how Israel should give it back, I would like to remind you that the North American continent was not devoid of native population when the Europeans discovered it, neither was Australia and more countries.

Think about that for a second.
The West Bank was occupied as a result of a war the Israel did not start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJFA9M2OIs&app=desktop

First of all, the native populations of Americas and Europe argument seems to insinuate that we should suddenly be OKAY with the genocide of those cultures and populations

Like the post a few pages back, we hold ourselves to different standards in this day and age
The borders after that war you mentioned are the exact borders most want Israel to agree too

The other stuff just reeks of "there was never a Palestine, and there is no such thing as a Palestinian" crap

 

[LNBL]

The numbers above were based on dutch nees sources. Lebanese news reports "Israeli air strikes have killed at least 70 people since the operation began, including at least 11 women and 18 children, according to medical reports."

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Mi...aise-gaza-death-toll-to-70.ashx#ixzz372xAcLky

 

[Chichikov]

About all the comments about the occupation of Palestinian territories, the West Bank.
I want to remind you that the west bank isn't Palestinian territory, it's Jordanian territory and it was occupied after the six days war when Jordan attacked Israel right along with Egypt, Syria and Lebanon (That's all the borders Israel have).
During that war, Israel occupied the West Bank.

Personally, I think Israel should give it back.
But, since a lot of you have very strong ideas about the West Bank settlements and how Israel should give it back, I would like to remind you that the North American continent was not devoid of native population when the Europeans discovered it, neither was Australia and more countries.

Think about that for a second.
The West Bank was occupied as a result of a war the Israel did not start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJFA9M2OIs&app=desktop

I would like to remind you that there are millions of people there living without basic human rights for almost half a century.
And are you really going to justify things by comparing them to the genocide of native Americans?

Also, Israel did start the 6 Days War, you can argue whether or not it was justified, but the war began with an Israeli preemptive strike.
But that's besides the point, because regardless on who started that war, it doesn't give you the right to deny basic human rights from millions of people.

 

[daniels]

He called one person bloodthirsty, you insinuated an entire ethnic group is. That's a huge difference.

No i didnt insinuate anything and the arab world is not a single ethnic group.

 

[ThreeBeta]

I would like to remind you that there are millions of people there living without basic human rights for almost half a century.
And are you really going to justify things by comparing them to the genocide of native Americans?

Also, Israel did start the 6 Days War, you can argue whether or not it was justified, but the war began with an Israeli preemptive strike.
But that's besides the point, because regardless on who started that war, it doesn't give you the right to deny basic human rights from millions of people.

But it's okay to deny the existence of an entire country and it's people?
It's okay for four countries to start a war on one country over and over?

Why is it okay when the entire whole of Arab countries declare they do not recognize Israel, and declare it should be destroyed?

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just giving a different perspective.

 

[Chichikov]

But it's okay to deny the existence of an entire country and it's people?
It's okay for four countries to start a war on one country over and over?

Why is it okay when the entire whole of Arab countries declare they do not recognize Israel, and declare it should be destroyed?

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just giving a different perspective.

What rights are being denied from Israelis?
Also, actions taken by Egypt, Syria or other Arab countries cannot be used as a justification for denying basic human right from millions of people.

p.s.
Not sure what "giving a different perspective" mean in this context.
You sure you're not trying to justify anything?

 

[MisterFalcon]

King Abdullah (Saudi Arabia)'s Arab Peace Initiative

Tell me what part of the deal is unreasonable.

There are some issues with this peace plan. First there is the irony of the Arab League pushing resolution 194 they all voted against. But losing a few wars will change your mind on a peaceful resolution that could have prevented them.

It's also impossible to have both resolution 194 and East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital as the resolution will put all of Jerusalem under international control. Cherry picking the bits you want from a resolution won't work.

Finally the opinion of the Arab states becomes increasingly irrelevant as non-state actors are the main drivers of conflict in the region against Israel and those states. Hamas has sent mixed messages on the API but there was a clear message sent by blowing up 30 Israeli's, mostly pensioners on the day the proposal was announced.

 

[ThreeBeta]

What rights are being denied from Israelis?
Also, actions taken by Egypt, Syria or other Arab countries cannot be used as a justification for denying basic human right from millions of people.

If I follow your way of thinking, no explanation will satisfy you.

 

[Hyperactivity]

There are some issues with this peace plan. First there is the irony of the Arab League pushing resolution 194 they all voted against. But losing a few wars will change your mind on a peaceful resolution that could have prevented them.

It's also impossible to have both resolution 194 and East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital as the resolution will put all of Jerusalem under international control. Cherry picking the bits you want from a resolution won't work.

Finally the opinion of the Arab states becomes increasingly irrelevant as non-state actors are the main drivers of conflict in the region against Israel and those states. Hamas has sent mixed messages on the API but there was a clear message sent by blowing up 30 Israeli's, mostly pensioners on the day the proposal was announced.

Just want to restate this, in a situation where Israel agrees to those terms, do the Palestinians still publicly support Hamas if they persist? Do parts of Hamas stop persisting and split off?

All the Hamas wont ever stop statements have to be aware of this

 

[Chichikov]

If I follow your way of thinking, no explanation will satisfy you.

No, I don't think any explanation would satisfy me as to why it's okay to deny basic human rights from millions of people.
I am however curious why you seem to be okay with this.

 

[Buzzman]

Remember when there was the five month ceasefire? Good times. Why can't we go back to that?

 

[ThreeBeta]

I am however curious why you seem to be okay with this.

I'm not okay with this. It bothers me a lot.
But, until Israel gets 100% guaranties that when it ends the occupation it wouldn't be attacked, I don't see anyway to withdraw from the West Bank.

 

[Chichikov]

I'm not okay with this. It bothers me a lot.
But, until Israel gets 100% guaranties that when it ends the occupation it wouldn't be attacked, I don't see anyway to withdraw from the West Bank.

Sorry, that's not how it works, you don't get to deny basic human rights from millions of people because some of them might do something you don't like.
Also, nothing is 100% guaranteed in life, but if Israel thinks that a Palestinian state is too great of risk, then it should annex the west bank and grant citizenship and full rights to the Palestinians.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Just want to restate this, in a situation where Israel agrees to those terms, do the Palestinians still publicly support Hamas if they persist? Do parts of Hamas stop persisting and split off?

All the Hamas wont ever stop statements have to be aware of this

If Hamas and Fatah would hold new, long overdue elections in Gaza and the West Bank we would have an indication of the popularity of their respective policies. Hamas came into power on both their hard line and image of being less corrupt then Fatah but their record in Gaza has been pretty bad as well, building villas for their leadership and stealing UN food to sell for buying weapons. But there are already signs of an ISIS presence in Gaza so there is always someone more extreme ready to take over.

 

[derdriu]

Just read this from the from Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/50-killed-in-gaza-as-israel-says-ground-offensive-likely-1.1860907

Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu says he has instructed the army to intensify the military offensive. “The army is prepared for any option,” he said.
“Hamas will pay a heavy price for firing at Israeli citizens. The security of Israel’s citizens is first and foremost.
Our army is strong, the home front firm and our nation united.”The troop build-up on the Gaza border continues as tens of thousands of reservists replace regular troops who are transferred south.
The message from Israeli leaders is that a ground offensive remains a distinct possibility.
“Despite the fact it will be hard, complicated and costly, we will have to take over Gaza temporarily, for a few weeks, to cut off the strengthening of this terror army,” intelligence minister Yuval Steinitz said.
“If you ask my humble opinion, a significant operation like this is approaching.”

This is the next step? really? not negotiating, just a take over.

 

[Codeblue]

I'm not okay with this. It bothers me a lot.
But, until Israel gets 100% guaranties that when it ends the occupation it wouldn't be attacked, I don't see anyway to withdraw from the West Bank.

If the West Bank were to attack Israel, wouldn't they do it while their land was being stolen? Instead they collaborate with Israel even though they are never rewarded for it. You think they would start attacking when Israel is peaceful even though they haven't struck while Israel is bleeding them dry?

It's just a paper thin excuse to justify their actions, nothing more.

 

[Baki]

It was based on this...



But of course you conveniently ignore this

Please keep your racism to yourself.

 

[yarden24]

The numbers above were based on dutch nees sources. Lebanese news reports "Israeli air strikes have killed at least 70 people since the operation began, including at least 11 women and 18 children, according to medical reports."

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Mi...aise-gaza-death-toll-to-70.ashx#ixzz372xAcLky

do you have a link you can share about the number of civilians killed?

 

[Terra Firma]

No i didnt insinuate anything and the arab world is not a single ethnic group.

"Arab world" refers to a single ethnic group. Nice try.

 

[yarden24]

But it's okay to deny the existence of an entire country and it's people?
It's okay for four countries to start a war on one country over and over?

Why is it okay when the entire whole of Arab countries declare they do not recognize Israel, and declare it should be destroyed?

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just giving a different perspective.

what does "denying" the existence of a country matter? its a meaningless statement that is used to excuse not wanting to work on an actual peace plan.

 

[quantumnerd]

It was based on this...

But of course you conveniently ignore this

I think Daniels is a bit annoying with smileys and lols everywhere, and it would be racist to call all Arabs bloodthirsty. But I'm not sure that's what he meant. You have to admit -- have you heard leaders from the region speak this last decade? If we take "the Arab world" to mean the arab political sphere, everyone's definitely gotten redfaced at someone else at least a few times. Even if it's justified, the thirst is real.

As for the political conflict, there aren't a lot of easy solutions right now. Israel is basically a western nation, and cannot do nothing in response to attacks (political suicide). But any military response basically amounts to civilian violence. Israel cannot annex the territory since it would be genocide, repression, or an angry Islamic faction in their political sphere. Palestinians have difficulty organizing recognized political support since the resistance has tarred their score sheet -- they are now marked terrorists and are seldom negotiated properly with. Palestinians cannot seek refuge in Israel and cannot flee to neighboring countries. Many Palestinians want Israel wiped off the face of the map, and those borders are being kept shut by other nations that want to wipe Israel off the map.

I think external forces are the most important ones here. How do you stop a proxy war?

 

[Mr.Sumal]

My thoughts and prayers goes out to the people of Gaza. The death toll is at 81 dead with 600 injured.

 

[damisa]

Israel's actions are disgusting, can't believe we have people defending them.

 

[theignoramus]

Just read this from the from Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/50-killed-in-gaza-as-israel-says-ground-offensive-likely-1.1860907



This is the next step? really? not negotiating, just a take over.

well I hope for Gaza's sake there is no land invasion, if the "Breaking the Silence" testimonies from the last Gaza invasion are to be believed, then we can expect serious human rights abuses and more human suffering to accompany the invasion.

 

[MacNille]

Just read this from the from Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/50-killed-in-gaza-as-israel-says-ground-offensive-likely-1.1860907



This is the next step? really? not negotiating, just a take over.

Would not suprise me if IDF did that. Casting Hamas into the sea and putting an end to the rockets attack once and for all.

 

[besada]

Why is obvious racism allowed on this board?

Did you mention it to a mod?

If someone posts an obviously racist comment, the appropriate course is not to have a bunch of people yell at them in a thread, thereby derailing discussion. The appropriate response is to shoot a mod a PM, so the mod can come here and wield the hammer of banning justice.

 

[Cromat]

Sorry, that's not how it works, you don't get to deny basic human rights from millions of people because some of them might do something you don't like.
Also, nothing is 100% guaranteed in life, but if Israel thinks that a Palestinian state is too great of risk, then it should annex the west bank and grant citizenship and full rights to the Palestinians.

If Palestinians get a state and continue to attack Israel, what do you suggest should be done?

 

[Dude Abides]

Would not suprise me if IDF did that. Casting Hamas into the sea and putting an end to the rockets attack once and for all.

The IDF can't end the rocket attacks once and for all, unless it completely reoccupies Gaza and imposes a police state, it can only contain and limit them. And it's overall pretty successful in doing so. These sporadic flare-ups appear to be an acceptable cost of maintaining the occupation from an Israeli perspective.

 

[Chichikov]

If Palestinians get a state and continue to attack Israel, what do you suggest should be done?

Depends on the type of attack and situation, but generally pretty much the same if any of the soveirgn states around them would attack them.
Though again, you can't justify denying basic human rights from million of people because some of them might do something bad in the future.